Ep. 2114 Wim Sas interviews Judith Unterholzner | Clubhouse Ambassadors’ Corner

So somehow he as a winemaker considers him like the conductor of an orchestra, which has the main task to cast to find a lot of talented musician. To train with them and then hopefully provide us a harmonious pleasant concert. Welcome to the special clubhouse session of the Italian wine podcast. Listen in as members of the Italian wine community engage in fascinating conversations about contemporary wine topics. If you enjoyed the show, please consider donating through Italian White Podcast dot com and remember to subscribe and rate the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pods. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Ambassador Corner. My name is Karlar Avano. And today, I'm pleased to welcome Vim Sasse and Judith. Hello. Hello. So, Vim Sasse is a seasoned wine expert with over thirty years of experience in the wine industry. Based in Leo Belgium, he's also the founder of Van Canisse, a wine import company that focuses on quality wines from both the old and new world. Besides being an importer, he's also wine writer and wine educator. And he's also earned the title of Italian wine ambassador. Thank you so much for joining us today, Vim. It's my pleasure. So scrolling through your website, I've noticed you put a lot of emphasis on the term quality wines. May I ask you to expand a little bit on this? What do you mean today, with quality wines? Well, I believe there are a lot of wines on the market, but, the true quality wines it's always a little bit different. Of course, it's always a little bit personal also, but to me, all the wines are wines from little wineries, with hearts with, passion mates and, done a lot of efforts in winery. Not only in the vineyard, but also in a winery. And, they are not about just selling, but, they are proud. They make, such great wines. And this is exactly what I also found with, about tasting the lines of, Gumboff we are talking about today. Yeah. This was going to be my question for you. Is this one of the reasons why you invited Gumboff today? The reason why I'm inviting them is it's very easy. For me, it's it felt completely natural because, I met Marcus, I met you did, and they are such wonderful humble people. They truly captured my heart. Besides this, every time I taste their wines or let the customers taste their wines, I I I just get the goosebumps every time and not just because of the high quality, of the wines, but also you can imagine once you are at the place of Coombov, and you see the stunning view, the stunning setting they have, Well, it's just a two game you fight in Alto Adi. Also, I never appreciated, sovignon blanc that much, but I fell in love with sovignon blanc, tasting the wines not from Sancerre, of not from, tuition aid, but, this experience from, out to Adije, especially, doing both. Also, the Weisbergener is is fantastic and and not even talking about their pinotero. Dewinery, Marcus Pratt Reeser, is is running. Gumpoff is for me, Atlankanes, is a a perfect match. They just make a few wines. They make a limited production. And, that's just what I'm always searching for. I can tell you I have a very special connection with these wines and these producers, but how did you actually discover them? How did you get in touch with Coompuff? Well, as as everything in life, the most beautiful things they happen by coincidence. It was no different with them. We were on our holiday in Alto Abije and, researching some wines, from the region. I believe it was in twenty twenty. I came across the winery room both and remembered I have tasted some of their wines and the fountain, okay, terrific. We stopped. We tasted the wines, was just blown away by them. I decided to buy some bottles from Judith to take them home because for me, it's important to replace them outside of a holiday setting. And, yeah, one thing led to another, and, now we are here. So what would you say are the learning objectives today from this interview? Well, for me, it's quite clear. Alto Adije is a well known region, wines are gaining more and more fame everywhere. But people talk about Alto Arjie wine. And when they do, they always mentioning the cooperatives, like Telanos, and Michael Eppennals Margaret and so on, and so on. These cooperatives are doing a fantastic job, by the way. And almost everybody has a few bottles of these producers at home. But the small family producers, like Goom poof, they are still less known, and it's my belief that needs to change. Well, so without any further ado, I leave the room to you, Vim, and you did have fun. I'm looking forward to learn more about gopal. Okay. Hello, Judith. I hope you're you're fine. I heard something telling you about a crazy harvest. I hope everything is okay, and you are not suffering too much from the lousy weather conditions you are experiencing now. Yeah. Hello from the dolomites. And first and foremost, thank you very much. Also, for the invitation to join you at the tonight's ambassador's corner of the tell you one club. Although we are somehow in the middle of the crazy harvest season. I obviously wanted to take the opportunity to introduce, you also to our tiny little family winery. And, yeah, at the end of the day harvest is what you are working for the whole year long because, yeah, every single time, you're touching the wines and execute one of the various jobs that need to be done, in your plots. It's always, a great satisfaction when at the end of, several months of growing and various weeks of, ripening. The moment is there, and you can pick and bring the grapes to the seller and then see what the Vintage will offer you. Actually, that is a good point to make. The vintage is, extremely important, and, it's a work of a whole year. So the job needs to be done good and clear. Now you are Vintaging now And to a winery is often both is in a place, not that well known in Alto Adi. It's in, in Fier. Can you dull me and the listeners a little bit the exact location within the Alto Adice region we are in? Yes. So actually, Alto Adice is, rather small wine growing region, especially on the national, Italian setting, and, we all together, producers in the territory are not even doing zero point eight percent of the National Italian wine production. So we're We're really tiny and little as a whole province, and, the village of ours actually here is just north of Bolzano in, the so called IZarkovelli. Valadizarko in Italian, which is also adages and Italy's northernmost wine growing territory. And it's the valley between Bolzano and Bresonone. So most of the listeners that have already visited my home region have quite probably already crossed the Valivisarco because this is where the highway from the Brandura from the Austrian border goes along and brings you all the way south. So where you're then proceeding to verona for VIN Italy or heating even to other parts of the grave and multifaceted at Italian Windwald. Cielo Sierriar is on the suite of the dolomites. So we, as a village, are already part of the UNESCO World Natural heritage site, dolomites. And it's an area with a quiet mountainous topography, meaning that we have a super steep inclines, and our vineyards are located between thirteen hundred and twenty eight hundred feet. So Sundrence during the day also thanks to the steepness, but with the high mountain peaks in our back that bring us day by day cool winds from the high snow covered peaks. Okay. That's weird. I also passed, a few times. And, last time, when we stopped at your winery at Gurnberg, we decided next year not to take the highway of the Bremerau, but to pass the other direction. So we come by the stunning Jews and, the higher places of, the alto Avija there. It's going to be not that easy drive, but I believe it's going to be a beautiful drive. Now when we stopped at your place, I noticed your wineries. They are all situated near by the winery. Can you Yes. Let's distinguish these vineyards. Our vineyards are primarily directly around the farm itself, which obviously has to do with the fact that we are small, family run and owns reality. Hence, we have first and foremost, historical plots that were already planted by the former generations, and which Marcus got as a heritage from his father. And then once, around year two thousand, he took the decision to convert the formally mixed farm into a one hundred percent grape growing and winemaking reality. He, step by step, converted all the available surfaces, meaning former fields, grassland for cattle farming, as well as a blue orchards into vineyards. And once, the surface directly at the farm, has all or had all become a cultural surface, just nearby who took the opportunity to rent respectively by additional plots and, plant vines there too. And the idea or the desire to have the vast majority of our production sites directly there where the water is has to do with our particular soil, the so called, quartz prefer a rock of volcanic origin. Which we have, just underneath the vineyards. And in order to be able to underline the specific characteristics of that, eruptive stone, obviously, you need to make sure that that most of your or all your grapes are growing on that side. Is this the fabulous, dormant line you're talking about? No. Actually, the Dalamite limestone is much younger, and it's a highly caries containing soil, which was formed during the era of the thermal sea when the main alpine chain was nearly completely underwater. And, in that big scene, there was quite a lot of life, meaning coral reefs, and they were done solidified about forty thousand years ago when we had the last real ice age and hence the whole territory was covered by a thick layer of ice, which obviously due to the pressure as well as the weight of the ice masses compressed the coral reefs. And they were then the basis for the dolomites that were formed once the ice melted to those forty thousand years ago. Okay. The volcanic rock. Sorry. Yeah. Oh, the volcanic rock. The rocks on which we are located is way older. Instead, it, is supposed to be around two hundred forty million years old, and it actually was formed when the African tectonic plate directly crashed into euro into the euro Asian one. Yeah. And, due to that, the Alps were folded and on the borderline, quite a lot of volcanic activity happened. And among starters, there was this huge volcano, the so called super volcano in the basin of Bolzano. And because of that, nowadays, we still have that volcanic rock underneath our vineyards. And giving this, fantastic purchase taste to your, wines, of course. Now you were telling me, Judith, that, Marcus, he started in, the winery in two thousands, and he started producing his own wines. Making his own labels. I just make the assumption that, prior to this, he sold the grapes to the local cooperative. And can you tell me what motivated, Marcus doing this to pursue this change in direction? Yes, sir. Actually, the farm itself has been existing for several centuries already. And we know that already in fifteen forty six, not only Gumpf existed, but already active, vine growing and winemaking over here. Because the very first written document that proves that exist stance of Gumbuff dates back to mid of the sixteenth century when in a castle nearby, a first wine delivery, our ancestors made to the Noble Stanley living there was documented. So we know that, the farm existed, that agriculture existed, but we do not really have a clue on how much wine was made and who made the wine. We can assume that, the vast majority of the fruit was, delivered to a co op, and the ones Marcus's father was actually, he continued that tradition bringing most of the crops to Canvas nowadays, Consina Bolzano. And just a small percentage was kept at the farm where he for private consumption, meaning for friends and family. And, once tourism started in the, I think, this use the area, so the destination just nearby respectively that part of Alto Anja where the farm is also located. The first, hosts, the first restaurateurs and hotel owners came to Gupov and asked Marcus's father if he wouldn't be willing to sell them someone too because they had already had the easy drinking lighthearted red from him somewhere the friends or a family member's house. And so somehow everything took off, but only with Marcus in the year two thousand, the final decision was taken to quit the membership at the coop and to vinify the whole production directly at Gumpa because it was Marcus's belief and desire to show what the potential and the peculiarities of our terror are. And, obviously, once your fruit ends up in the same vats, then deliveries from a dozen of, other farmers from totally different terrors. Most of the characteristics are neutralized. And, hence, with two thousand once he has become the official proprietor of Kimpav, He did his, first, Brazobianca, so his first single, vineyard wife, and then step by step, also other varietals were added to the portfolio. Okay. That's, that's very nice to know. I didn't know all these, these facts, exactly, but, I think Marcus made the right decision in making his own lines and, all, on, labels. Now you everybody knows that, Aldo Arliche is, renowned for the high quality of white wines, especially made with, internationally, mostly French graves. I, may have already, sauvignon blanc in the entry. But you have also weisbergener. Now when in a time group of started, there were, I think, only red grapes. How is it possible that Alto Adi Jay is so suitable for the production of these exceptional white wines? Yeah. That for sure has to do with, the soil types we have in part of the region, limestone. So the sedimentary rock, the so called dolomite, then obviously the volcanic rocks, the quartz prefer rich stone, which we have underneath our vineyards too. And, obviously, also the climatic situation. But we need to keep in mind a bit our history because our strategy till the end of World War one was part of the big hapsburgan empire. The Austrian Hungarian Empire that, somehow had Gaurizia and Rioli and Alto Adi as the southernmost parts of it. So we were amongst the most important wine supplier, so not We Gumpfels, but we as a region, were amongst the most important wine suppliers for the emperors in Vienna as well as for many Southern German and Austrian monasteries, which had properties in Alto Aditi too. And once at the end of world war one, from one vintage to the next, we became part of Italy towards south because obviously at the Brenro, the border was closed. So there weren't really at the real beginning possibilities to continue a trade with the former partners to itself instead our easy drinking light, but it read our Skyava was not appreciated in the sense that if you're grown with a nebula Sangiovese, Alyanico, and other full bodied rats, our lighthearted, no tenant, low acidity rat wasn't even considered a serious rat. And so the already existing, but just as a niche in the niche whites, in Altoadija were step by step, and large in surface. Because already during our Habsburg in times, there was the still nowadays famous, the Viticulture Research Center, in San Mikale, the Viticulture research centers, in Trentina, which from Arc Duke, Joanne the second got the task to find out where in Alto Adije, there could be interesting plots for Pinoblont, for Chardonnay, for Soganyan, which the Habsburgans had brought from frost into their territory. The Habsburgans always had that strategy to enlarge their empire, not by fighting wars, but potentially by marrying their children strategically. And, hence, also one of their daughters is the wife of the king in Paris and by visiting them for diplomatic reasons, but for sure they got some food in wine too. They somehow or amongst others discovered the Burgundy family of varietals as well as sovignan. And so the first plants of those varietals, the first young vines came into Alto Adije. And once we somehow had to reinvent ourselves as a wine growing region at the end of World War one, then step by step the already existing vineyards of Pinombianca, of, sovignon were enlarged. And over the last decades, we have become a white wine territory. Okay. And, luckily, with the import of the burgundy lines, you also have pinonero, and you discover pinonero. And if you see now the exceptional quality also of pinonero, just, make a reference to your, renaissance, pinonero. It's also very nice to have these big red wines in, in that area. And about pinotero, I want to ask you also, do you have a special approach or what is your, philosophy in crafting this, wine you do? Do you utilize a burgundy clone? In the pinotaro production, or what is the tricky part you do? Yes. So, for the pinot noir, we're using burgundy class. You're right. Very trained, pallet. We have the primarily, we are using the seven seventy seven, as well as the eight to eight clonal material. Okay. But I think besides the vines, it's obviously also the style and the production philosophy. When, Vineifying pinot noir, Mark is, wants to have fruit, yes, but crunchy red fruit. And in addition to that, always this spicy, slightly, herbal aromatic profile. And he's, reaching that by first and foremost catching the right moment for the harvest. Markis is rather well known, especially amongst the altoidsio winemakers and theologists as a late harvester. But on the PNR, once we start, we are rather quick because we would like to prevent to have, aromas that could remind you of dried or cooked fruits or gummy flavors. And in order to get this crunched, slightly, also medicinal, etyrical nuances, we are always working with quite an important percentage of whole cluster in the fermentation tanks. And what is the stand instead is not squeezed though. So that helps us to get the pure fruit, but at the same time with the rasps and the vinification vats, also the possibility to extract the spiciness and the haptics from the rasps. So a little bit, carbonic, you are using, with a pin on aero. Sort of, yes, but if you want to be technically precise, it's not one hundred percent, associate on carbonate, but it's a similar approach, though. We'll talk about it. Well, talking about, the the the threats, lines, and you already mentioned the other important, great view are, Finifying as Kiava. It, kept me that, in my studies this year of, Italian wine investors, professor de atulos, he emphasized the increasing significance of Kiava in light of global warming. He told us that Kiava is maybe getting one of the most important grapes for the north of Italy. What do you think about this? Yes. So Sciava for us, means tradition because, we've been a one hundred percent Sciava producers all the way, till nineteen eighty two. We were focusing just on that rat. There didn't even exist, vine of white, till forty years ago at Gumpoff. So Skiava is our cultural heritage for sure. But Kiava, you're absolutely right or a professor, instance, absolutely right, is certainly also our future because Kiava is, one where we as an area, respectively, where our efforts facing slope here at Fier, for sure, with, global warming, we have already had over the last decade has become an area where we are able to do very fresh, fruit driven, and crunchy, the other styles. And where if you're talking to Marcus's father nowadays, who was born in nineteen twenty five, So he has seen many vintages of Sciava already, and Sciava is deadline. He's still day by day drinking a glass for lunch and one for dinner. So according to him, Sciava has been his lifeblood ever since. And Indeed, when I was, in in Alto Adi and talking to the producers, and I was asking the question, what do you prefer to drink from the wines you make? They always, tell me, oh, we are just lovers of Kiara. We always, drinking glass of Skiyaba every minute of the day, and you're just, confirming this now. Yeah. So, yeah, is what he would say, for daily usage. So for breakfast lunch and dinner, obviously, intending the second breakfast, the so called health morning snack. But if we refer to the rhythms, the working routine they had in the past, when they started at five thirty six AM, the latest, and they worked very hard in the fields, or in the forest. Obviously, I around nine thirty ten, they were hungry, and they needed to recharge the batteries quickly. So drinking a glass of Skiana together with their sandwich, with a speck core, high mido season cheese was somehow the ideal snack, the deal break. Yeah. I I must keep this. They mind to, do the same thing in Belgium to, you know, reload the batteries, drinking glass of as Kiava? No, but actually, returning back to, professor Chienza's statement. Sciago for sure is a varietal that not only has history, but also has future because it's a very easy drinking lighthearted red wine style. And with the summers, but even the winters that are becoming warmer and warmer, the climate that obviously is bringing its changes in cuisine. And if we compare to what not only that, super famous, three, two, or one Michelin store is a chef, but even the classic, chefs in the tortoreas, in the guest house, as we call it in Alto Adija, are preparing nowadays. It's mostly dishes that are lighter, that are quite off than, having vegetables is made ingredient. So high acidity also. Yeah. Medium high to high acidity. Fact, yes, but more olive oil than, butter. And a lot of low temperature, sous vide, preparation techniques, not only for fish, for me too, if not even role components. So, obviously, it's, type of cuisine where you need if you're aiming for a rat where you need something refreshing like which thanks to the newly present tenants obviously can be served even slightly chilled during the hot summer. So Sciava is not only a wine for every daytime, but even a wine for every season. Well, I will keep you in mind that next time we will visit you, we will, go to one of these restaurants and, do this experience together. It would be nice there in the, in the Alto Aditi mountains. Absolutely. But but not not only our local cuisine, the classic dumplings or some cold cuts, some, spec, the seasoned bacon, seasoned smoked bacon, we're doing even thinking about classic Italian cuisine, a crunchy fresh pizza. Simple plate of pasta with a good tomato sauce from real tomatoes that have seen a lot of sun It's a super meal, and it's a perfect fit with Scala. Okay. We will experience. I believe you want your word for it. We we will give it a try. Yeah. We will give we will definitely give it a try. Now now, Jupyts, you tell me several times when we meet that your wines are known as a mountain wines, and I don't think we are revealing a a secret telling this, but can you tell us the impacts of the mountains on your wine style and why you primarily have eastward face training arts and nearly any plot on the southern ex exposure. Yes. Why is this? We have mostly westwards facing signs So we are sort of, on the, flow below the dolomites that is falling down to the, to the river that gave the name to our valley. And it's an area where due to the exposure, we are getting the sun only relatively late in the morning. But then our sides are sun drenched all the way till the sunset. And as it is, super inclinated topography we have, I was mentioning before those fifty five to seventy percent of steepness in our plots, which if you are skiers, it's all black slopes. The moment when the sun is the strongest is actually just in the late afternoon before the sunset because only then the sun rays are touching in a ninety degree angle, the fruit zone, as well as the canopy. And once the sun is setting instead, after the warmest hours of the day, there is following a big temperature drop. So nearly immediately the cool down phase, because about an hour maximum an hour and a half after sunset. We're getting the falling winds from the dolomites in our back so that are coming from the west. Hence, temperatures are dropped notably. And due to that, in the vineyard, we experience an effect that you eventually know from your garden at home or from some fruit trees in your area. The peach or that last tomato that hardly reaches the color, you would consider an ideal one or the ideal one to pick them. Are nevertheless always those tomatoes, those peaches, apples, or whatever that are the most flavorful because they are ripening slowly but continuously and that slowly next and that consistency is giving us this intense flavors without losing acidity. And that's the main reason why Marcus is rather famous in the wine world for being such a late harvester because he always says that if the weather got allows, he wants to wait because he isn't really risking to lose the acidity while still intensifying the flavors. Okay. That's that makes sense. That's clear. And, that explains, why the bits, the taste of your wines also, you mentioned the the the very steep slopes. I assume everything is done by hand, and the things done manual, no mechanical treatments are possible then because of these, steep slopes. So saying nothing would be a lie, but we are quite limited. So we can use very narrow crawlers for cutting the grass for the treatments as well as for the transport of the boxes with the hand picked grapes to the main role now or during harvest. Yeah. But all the rest is still nowadays in twenty twenty four pure hand work, like, back in the days, at the grandfather's time. So we are on average touching every single line between seventeen and twenty times a year. So we do not know them by name, but we have a quiet experienced eye of, where to do what and, how to proceed or how to, yeah, eventually improve the next year. So, actually, for us, the fact that we do so much of the jobs that need to be executed manually obviously gives us the possibility to individualize that works on every single vine. So it starts, for example, already with the pruning. If before making the first cut, you see, oh, that's a vine that was a bit weak last year. You are for sure cutting a much shorter main fry in order to allow that plant to store more energy in the root stock this year and, guaranteeing us many more vintages with great, grapes, for the next years if not decades. Okay. If you see that there was, or there's a vine that, was not forced enough last year, you're eventually doing are leaving a longer fry in order to challenge that, plant a little more because vines, great vines are fighters. They need and are used to by their nature to face challenges. Well, you will succeed in, facing these, challenges. That brings us, perfectly to my next question for you. It's a very challenging question. I notice because I know the demands of the wines of Alto AdiJ. They are very increasing, especially in recent years. You just have to visit, the Alto AdiJ whole in, in Italy to notice how crowded it is over there. And I work with you, and I know you are a smoke user. I believe you only make like sixty thousand bottles or something like this. And sometimes I get the answer on my demands for wines that wine is out of stock. Etcetera. How do you plan to meet the rising demands for your wines? Good question. Very tricky question, and everything else then easy to answer. We try vintage by Vintage to do our best to make high quality wines and to have a certain continuity in quality. And hopefully, if the weather lasts also in quantity, But for us, it's way more important to improve from year to year and to make the wines better and better. Also thanks to the experience. That is growing than to grow in size. So we have recently had a possibility to plant two more vineyards in the near surroundings of our already existing plots. Which will start producing, from this year. But after them, right now, I do not see any possibilities to grow again. And we think it's better to do our job properly than to do more. So growing in quantity is not really something that's part of our strategy. Okay. That's no problem for me because you provided me with the answer. I was expecting a little bit, and I was hoping, you would say, personally, I don't mind you telling me, okay, this wine is out of stock. You have to wait till the next vintage. It's like this. I prefer you to continue with the nice quality wines you make, instead indeed in growing and growing and growing to provide the whole world of your wines. She just give me a little share of it. I'm, really happy to hit it. Now, what for me is difficult that is the distinctive names you give on the labels. I can understand, renaissance you use. I can understand a little bit of that. But my customers are also asking what is the meaning of mediate and what is the meaning of, the others names on the labels of your wines. Can you fill me a little bit more information with this? Absolutely. Yeah. So first and foremost with choosing primarily Latin names for the wines we do because we are always in this German speaking environment with the two official languages in AltoanyJ. And, hence, we preferred somehow using Latin as a neutral language in order not to have, German proper names that are super hard to pronounce or Italian proper names for our wines that are tricky for the German speaking. Walt, also because Ultra has been this sort of melting client. It would be the northern and the southern cultured every since. And actually, the name medieval for our fresh wines from the young vineyards comes from the Latin term for the middle ages. And that proper name was chosen in order to underline the long history. Gupav has a farm has, but also the long tradition winemaking and wine growing has, over here at our family farm. Also because we have that very first written document that proves all the free. Things I just mentioned from fifteen forty six. Prezolis instead is the former when Latin was still as spoken and on just the written language, it's the former proper name of the Hamlet where all our vineyards as well as the farm are located. So it's actually a geographical indication that was chosen for the wines from the old vines. So actually those wines, which according to us, really reflect well the peculiarities of the terroir, and therefore also the name of the area they got. And Renaissance since that is, yeah, meaning in frost and in Latin rebirth or rediscovering because our area somehow also thanks to Marcus and other vendors was rediscovered as a Viticulture town in, Altuada. Because we had over here already back in the Middle Ages's active Viticulture. But then between the end of the seventies and the beginning of the nineteenth century, we had this so called small ice age, which was not like in the last realized age, forty thousand years ago when, the whole area around the lean alpine chain was under declare of frozen water, but the small ice age was period, more or several decades when we had a temperature drop. And especially in areas with an elevation of, five hundred meters and higher certain types of agriculture, like Viticulture, didn't really bring, yeah, continuous results any longer. And, obviously, in those times, most of the farmers were producing, in order to fill their solars and, their houses with products for the heart and, tough winter months when they weren't any products to eat and to drink. So somehow to survive, the cold period of the year. And, obviously, if you're working the whole year long, a vineyard, and then you can't pick fruit because it doesn't reach forgiveness, you will give it a trial this year after you will give that plot another chance, for for you too. But then if your seller still continues to be empty, you change to another type of agriculture to other plants that bring you results. And so a lot of vineyards in the area here were abandoned, respectively converted into other types of agriculture. And only Marcus's father and then, Marcus and other vendors nowadays too has somehow started to intensify Viticulture here in CA again. Yeah. And so, Renaissance, that's, the explanation then of the name. Well, it's good to know, and it's definitely a good story to tell. That helps a lot. Thank you very much for it. But, obviously, for us, the Renaissance wines are not only, reminding the past and not forget about history, but Renaissance for us are those wines which really show that it's the character of the place of the terror, but also the character of the person making the line that, is part of the whole terror definition. So it's, it's important that, the soil is an appropriate one for the variety that was chosen that the microclimate and microclimate in that particular vintage are reflected in one, but you should also have the chance to catch the idea the winemaker had when he was deciding about the moment, when to pitch, and about how to quantify, and how long to mature, and then which type of barrel, respectively, that to mature the musts, respectively, to verify the musts and to mature the lines. Okay. We we can say there's a little bit of, Marcus's soul in these, wines. And you definitely taste also, of course. Now, Judith, I, just have one more question for you, and it's a little bit tricky also. It's also a little bit personal because I want to ask you if you can reveal a little bit of your secrets, a little bit of this magic touch, you employ to consistently produce fines of such, exceptional quality, but your philosophy of my own winemaking that brings so much joy while savoring the wine, at least us, feeling a change of sadness is minimal towards MD. Yes. Actually, the main motivation of us as vendors, but also as winemakers is first and foremost to work with and not against nature. So it's important to understand already during the growing season what the vintage and its peculiarities are. Because based on that, you need to adapt the works in the vineyards. And you have already during those months and weeks, the necessity or there's already then the necessity to start to think about the wines and how they're going to express the weather conditions. Because that's what should be the character of the vintage. And then, obviously, the crucial moment when to start harvest, and their marks is really relies on his palette. He has his rather famous VASPA That's also why on many photos, you see him with his quite old, orange VASpa that he uses to drive back and forth and up and down in the vineyards through the Rose. Tasting, berries, and based on that, deciding when to pick, respectively, where to continue harvest. And, obviously, once, the whole elaboration of the fruit begins and the vinification starts, again, to understand what makes that vintage special. And, Martin's idea of making wines really is to do wines where the second glass is easier than the first, but not in the sense that you have to fight in order to finish that first glass, but in the sense that the first glass is emptied with such an easiness and so much pleasure. The only ones you ask for the next round or are reporting, you start reflecting how it came that that first class finished so quickly. And, in order to make wines that have that unique character and obviously reflects him and the place over here, every single year, we're microfinifying all the various plots, all the various zepstones we have, even though they are partnered with the same varietals in different barrels, respectively, stainless steel And by doing so, Martus has the chance to understand every year and with every vintage better what the strengths as well as the weaknesses of all our Zapstones are. And so somehow he as a winemaker considers him like the conductor of an orchestra, which has the main task to cast to find a lot of talented musician. To train with them and then hopefully provide us a harmonious, pleasant concert. And while I'm in for a second class, as you were telling, it's perfect to know, how a nice, orchestra can be built in in a wine tasting and sipping one of these beautiful wines. Thank you very much, Judy. Thank you. Yeah. That's all for me. Hopefully, I was able to give you an idea of where your where we are and what we want to do? It's been extremely interesting, honestly. And actually, I really like how you touch a little bit more on Skava, because I really agree on I agree a lot with you that is the grip of the future. So it's been extremely interesting to learn more about it. But apparently, it's time we are gonna close the room, but I really wanna thank you, Vim, and Judith for joining us today, and I'm very much looking forward to try a glass of yours. So in your blog. Thank you. Yeah. If you should ever be in the area, hiking in the dormats is cool, but, after the high court climb for, yeah, maybe not before, but after a mountain experience, and, stopping by for a sip or to take some wines, we will be more than happy to host you. So just reach out. Thank you so so much. Have a great one. Bye bye everyone. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you. Thank you. You need Bye bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication until next time. Chichi.