Ep. 2185 Ilia Sakharov interviews Giuseppe Pinna of Argiolas Winery | Clubhouse Ambassadors’ Corner

Sardinia is the blue zone. It's the place where people achieve long life, and there are five places in the world where they the the heritage of life is longer. And one of this place is Sard. Antonio Agiolas, who found the winery Agiolas in, nineteen thirty eight, died when he was one hundred three years old. And we have the the main testimonial, of their longevity. Welcome to the special club house session of the Italian wine podcast. Listen in as members of the Italian wine community engage in fascinating conversations about contemporary wine topics. If you enjoyed the show, please consider donating through italian wine podcast dot com, and remember to subscribe and rate the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to a new club house session of the Investors Corner. My name is Karlaraviano. And today, I'm pleased to welcome Elia Saharo, and his guest is a Pepin, not from our Dallas estate. Welcome, everybody. Thanks for joining us today. Hi. I'm bad. Hi. Very happy to be here. I'm glad I'm very I'm very excited too. So, Eilia, this is your first club house. So let me briefly introduce you to the audience. You started your wine career in Saint Petersburg, Russia in twenty twenty one. Where you worked as a family in various restaurants and wine bars. You then relocated to Almatin, Kazakhstan, where you gained experience as import and distribution manager in a wine company. And during your first trips to Italy, you visited Arjola. And after that, you decided to focus on Italian wine. That's when you attended and passed the Italian wine maestro course and achieved later on the title of Italian wine ambassadors. Three months ago, you relocated again from Matitubaku in azerbaijan where in addition to being the CEO of IWine Wine School, you have many other projects going on. Could you please tell us a little bit more about, your projects? Nice to meet, but hear you for today. Thank you for your invitation also. I think that we have got, a lot of really interesting wine projects here in Baku. For example, in, next week, from nine to fifteenth, December. We will organize Italian wine festival here in Baku during seven days, you know. We will do it together with Italian trade agency, Echa. They correctly remember the name in Italian. Yes, and we will organize some master classes some degree stations, dinners, events, a period of parties, something like this for professionals, for final customers, just wine lovers. And, I hope that, the same type of wine activities will be more and more here in Baku because of this market is really interesting. And, I hope that the future of the market with Italian wines here is amazing too. Yeah. I'm very glad to hear that. Also, because I was kinda wondering how does the Azerbaijan wine market look like for Italian wine producers. Do you have any, quick insights you can share maybe about it? Unfortunately, for me, right now, there are an also huge quantity of Italian wine producers. Here, but I think that there are a lot of interesting minors. For example, of course, Lanery arguellis, right now, work with the other by John Country. Also, you know, there is, Terrari tend to dock, for example. We have got Donah Fogatta from Italy. We have got guy, of course. We have got engineering. We have got risk of biology. We have got a lot of, big, cool brands with huge history. And I hope that the quantity of brands will become, huge and huge infusion. I hope. So moving on to your guests. In your bio, we read you decided to focus on Italian wine after visiting Arjola's. Could we guess this is the reason why you decided to invite the Giuseppe here with us today? I think, that, of course, my previous visit for we my previous visit to our Joel's winery was one of the, you know, one of the reasons because of, as I already told, until this interview started, you know, that the level of hospitality by Gizepa and my arguments was absolutely amazing. Because if you know that when I widget it, this winery, I was still live in a committee, and I was a part of team of competitor company. Yes. And, our goals finally worked with our, concurrence there in a committee, but, nevertheless, However, hospitality of Giuseppe and the Fargo was fine. He was amazing. Also, the wine was absolutely amazing. The gustation session was also absolutely fantastic for me because of I have tested, I think it may be seventy or eighty, person of wine styles from, holes, Iceland holders, Virginia, and, it was very important for me as a young wine specialist, to discover so many interesting styles in one moment and one evening. So how did you actually discover or when was the first time you heard of Arjola's wine? It was about three, three years. I think it was about three years ago. That was my first, restaurant job in all life in Saint Petersburg. Name of restaurant was Marula on Niewski District. And we have got Vermincino named Mary from Margillos, and, this wine was just my first Vermincino in all my life. And, of course, first, Vermitini from Sardini and by Argios. Also. And I remember that, I absolutely fallen laughing. This is why I didn't know anything about the producer. I didn't know anything about the grape variety about the sardinia. I, I didn't know nothing, I think. But I fall in love and style of wine, and fruity, in texture, structure of wine, and, I think that I have sold a lot of bottles during period of work in there, as long as this wine. I feel like when a wine speaks to our soul like that that we simply fell in love with it. It's just the best compliment. Maybe that a wine can get, like, a wine you remember. Right? So one last question before I pass the mic to you. What are the learning objectives that we should expect from this interview? It's really interesting for me to discuss future of our goals, winery, and future of sardinia, wine, eugene, and Tare because of right now, I think that, quantity of my knowledge about Italian wine is, really more than three years ago. Yes. And for me right now, it's very interesting to discover, some future insights about the producer and about the entire region. Well, thank you so much. I'll now mute myself so you can properly introduce your guest. Have fun. Okay. Gisela, hello again. Could you please tell us some words about yourself? Or start. Kia, Kia Ocala, very happy to be here with you today. Yes. Of course. I'm fifty two years old, and, I'm a senior, expert manager of, Absjola's winery. I work for the same company almost twenty five years next year will be my age, twenty five, twenty fifth. And, I, covered many, many different position in the winery, and I start, in the in the logistics, and, now, since the twenty years, I'm the expert manager. I travel for the winery. And, I'm a wine lover. I have a vineyard on my own, I love to travel. I love the cross culture or the the the the difference between all the culture of the world. And then, when I travel, I never tired. I'm always happy and wine is really hundred percent in, in my life. It sounds really good, and I think that wine is also, it's about seventy or eighty percent of all my life. Okay. Just for those short questions for me to just introduce, introduce the evening. Could you please tell us and me about the this vintage in the south of Sardinia? What do you think about it? What about the future? What about the potential of, two thousand twenty four vintage? So thank you for asking. We're here in the south of Sardinia and really is becoming a place of, heroic agriculture because in the last three years, We didn't have any winter, and there is absolutely lack of rain. And only if you season a fall and summer were, year. And twenty twenty two was a difficult vintage. Twenty twenty three was a difficult vintage, but twenty twenty four was a very difficult vintage. We lost the quantity because the summer started in April and finishing October. But, you know, we we know where we are. We are in the south, and, we have a special technique to save the quality of, our grades. You know, everything starts from the grades. No. This is the first commandment in, in wine business, in wine tradition. And, we we we we fight with the the strong condition in in simple things. It looks simple, but for example, irrigation, we have to irrigate. It's not forbidden in this, part of the world, we need to, irrigate, but we don't have enough water. The water is limited, firstly for the people, secondly from the animal, a third for the agriculture. And then we have amount of water that is not enough to irrigate all the three hundred at the top of, arjola's vineyards. Then we have strategically decide where irrigate, well irrigate. And, this was a really, strong part that, take a lot of, time from March to, July, to understand when and where to irrigate, Secondly, we move the soil continuously in the vineyards because to have, always the last twenty centimeter of soil always fresh, you know, because, if you don't do that, the soil becomes so, strong. And then, there are, caves that are, really deep and the roots under, aridity and the vineyards died. Then we we move the soil continuously every two weeks to have, always fresh soil. And, we left more, foliage compared the past as the the grace can be on the shadows as much as possible. This was really a strong year. And another part, it was that, not treatment we need in this account of year. Right? The grapes were blocked in the warm, and they grow slowly, but the achieve all the things because we we did a a great job. And when we harvest, almost fifteen days before the the normal time, we receive in the winery, very healthy grape, We lost, almost twenty percent of the the grapes, but especially in the red production that, we we are western, later than the normal, but we are quite happy to a confidence that the quality of twenty twenty four will be very good. And, of course, less quantity in this time when, with low consumer can be also another good things. Thank you. Thank you a lot for your life. And just up here, you have already told a lot about troubles of climate, yes, and about, drought, about hot winter use and, troubles with this one. But maybe do you know have arguellas or some certain universities, some other types of recession hubs. Now are trying to discover some more resistant to drought clones or bio types of and Sardinia native grape varieties because if you know that, future climate changing, right now, in our world is not maybe so good, as we want. And may maybe it is one of way to, to help with this problem? What do you think would do you know maybe some insights? Yes. Of course. Especially, Arjola, as a vineyard, a big vineyard called, like, the Bibleyotech, because, we have, many different clones of, our main grades that are Vermetino and, Canal, Vermetino. We have more than twenty different clones, where we planted fifty different plants per clones. We do micro verification every year, and we understand, which clone is better for wheat, for different soils. And, same for Canal. We have different clones. That we take from old island, the Sardinia. For example, in two thousand and twenty, when we planted the new vineyards of, Canada, we take the clones, that we already have in this biotech that, for the soil, where we was, going to plant the vineyards. It was, the best clone for for the kind of, soil and the exposition. And, this is, of course, for us, it's very important, as we are in this part of the world fight to understand how to improve the quality and, how to make dinners, and, wine in the future. We have to study that. And that's why we have, big, bible attack, that, is also in collaboration made in the collaboration with the University of, SASay. That is the North, Southern University, And, when we do the micro verification, the university do the analysis of, every single clothes, how they react, how, and they do, like, the identity card of every clothes that, this is in our videos, but it's for everybody. Thank you. Thank you, Pepper. I think it's enough for for this team for this topic, and we could to switch for next one. Next one questions by me is about Kanana grape variety. You know, there is a very big popularity of more than Spanish garnacha style. Yes. Like, wines by Commanderja projects and, so You feel raising of attention, to Canal tool. Yes. And if you feel, what do you think about this one? Is this good or not? What is the future of this mix? Because if you know that, Okay. Maybe not, the whole grape variety, but the Canal and C matches, maybe pewdiepie tips or clums, but the general way is the same for both wines. Okay. Yeah. Kannunau is the most cultivated grape in Sardinia, but we know that it's family of Karanache, but, Heliyah, don't tell to old Sardinia people that Granash and Canada, they think they will kill you. That's why historically, we are a nation, is an island, Sardinia, is also a nation. This is a joke. Of course, we know that, Garnache and Kanonawa are from the same family, and we feel rise of attention in Canalau in the last almost fifteen years. Because there is, in Canal, there is another, link, another connection that is, Blue Zone, also longevity. Satinia is a blue zone. It's a place where people achieve long life, and there are five places in the world where they, the the heritage of life is longer. One of this place is Sard. Antonio Arjola who found the winery Agjolas in, nineteen thirty eight, died when it was one hundred three years old, and we have the the main testimonial, of their longevity in the in the one area. He was the chairman of the one area until the last day of his life because he was able to understand an healthy hundred years old man. And with this link, since the, twenty years ago, they started to study why Tardinia was a, a blue zone, a place with long, longer, long life. There was a report that the the Resvet and all police and all contained in the Canal helps a lot to the people of Thardinia to achieve long life. This was, of course, the systemic things, many things else. To have long life, and no pollution, very, quiet place, not too much stressful activity, manual work, but also what we eat and what we drink, especially can now are linked to the longevity. And, coming back to the the the question, of course, we know that Canal is a very important, part of Sardinia. And, we have also in Sardinia, a small continent because, we have a different kind of, canal. For example, we are in the south, and we produce a canal that our white maker, every meeting, remember us that, we produce Canal from South. The Canal from South, is a bit dry, intense, but with soft tannins, and, some velvet sensation. We don't achieve, too much high cold level in in the south, and the the character of the Canal is quite different than the the other place, the other areas of San Binian Canal. And we are very happy about because, in the same range, we can, qualify different kind of, of Canal. And, of course, we are happy that there is interest in Ganasha and in Canal. And we, we are happy because we can tell our particular history. And, the most trade our identity is also quite interesting for the Grand Ash, God natural style. Jacob, during your telling this story, I remember that we have got the same conversation, during our, offline meetings, some months ago. And you have already told me the story about, Canal, Polithinals, and long live. And, I have born, the new question. Right now during your speech, because of, for me, in my mind, in my brain, the story you have already told, some seconds ago. It sounds like really good, honest, and fair, marketing speech for all the world. So, like, Canal is the wine for people which would like to have a very long life. Have you got some marketing program, some promotion program for, from this point of view from all the Sardinia, Sardinia consortium or something like this. Because for me, in my mind, I think that this could be a big potential in this idea. Yeah. The this is a, a true story. For sure, we have a good businessman in Sardinia, but we never use the this kind of, story, as a marketing. Is the real story and it's true. And we have the proof in the one area because Antonio Artchel is the founder. He lives a hundred one hundred and three. But there is no big project to promote as a marketing, this. I tell I tell all this story every time. And people is impressed, but we don't have, a real marketing plan on, this story. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I I understand you, but, of course, I understand that the story is, fires through, of course. No no no questions. I know. Okay. Let's switch the question. And, right now, I have got a short question for today. Whole wine industry, you know, you know, it's not in very good condition. Because of quantity of customers, unfortunately, is designing. And, there are a lot of the same, the same stories about the whole wine industry. But there are some opinions that the future of wines and future of wine markets, in a new markets, like India, like maybe a new wife in China, some Latin America, some languages. What you think about it? Maybe have you got something new contracts or new partners in a non classical part of the wine world? I call this time congestion of the market, not the real, the is the true that, consumer drop down, the power of buying is the lower, and as the expert manager, and as a seller, and as as a producer, we are forced to find a new solution, and the one of the new solution is for sure find new markets. Another point is, to follow-up all the time in the classic market. But, of course, we are trying to open new market. That is no easy. No. You know, the story is better to maintain a customer than do a new one. But this year, as I've told us, we scout, a lot, and, we opened new market in Peru, in Philippines, and, we have, new opening, sooner in, in twenty twenty five that we are is the the result of the job we are doing, this year. And we have to promote. We have to start, like we did, twenty five years ago in, market that today are classic, you know. We have to go there. We have to explain. We have to to speak. Let them understand why, selecting our Jola Sardinan, why, or another one, and we have to reopen our jacket. We have to do what we did twenty five years ago in the classic market, in the new market now. We in the strong times, in the worst time that, we found new solution. And then, I'm happy that this is a strong time. And, we are, trying to answer also as a producer, you know, because, when I started him, the winery of Joel, I worked with the Antonio, the founder. He was in in life, and the second generation. We produced, at that time, medium, low level and big quantities. You know, we've tried to push the sales of Sabigna, San Bernardino, Canal, a low, medium, low level, okay, entry level that I don't know how do you call it? When the third generation arrived, it was, fifteen years ago, we changed, and it was a really difficult time in two thousand eight. There was also crisis. And, we released, in fifteen years, eight different labels on, pacifical, only I've talked on wise and, very easy drinking with a new identity for young guys from younger, and the third generation do something different than, previous one. And, for the future, we also, with the third generation, we also have in project, do some, new wine. We don't want to make a no alcohol wine. No. That's, low alcohol as much as possible. That the for us that we work in the warm place is really a big deal. And then, is the where we are working now. It sounds it sounds really good. There's things that, it's your local style of, less but better since, you know, I hope that you will have a good future for this strategy. Thank you. Another question for me is maybe not about in fact, Georgia, but about the whole Sardinia, especially about Canal. You know, another one, big, not big, I think. That's one huge trend all over the wine world. It sounds like burgundy style classification. MJ and Berberezka, UJ can't classic, Contrada's Netna, and and Soul. Right now, I know just three subsones for Canada and Virginia. Yes. It's, Napanta, Jotsu, and Capa Ferata. But, unfortunately, there is no really big blast of information about all of them. And also, there are no discovered, subsones, PremiereQ and JS, something like this, in hold, in whole size. What do you think about it? Do you think that, Sardinia have got also potential to discover single vineyards, single, commons, single villages, something like this, or your winery and maybe doing some information about your neighborhoods, things that this is know your way. The main answer of, this question is that, Santinia produced, very small quantity. Do do you know, India, how much is the India in the in Italy? In total Italy, how much is the production of Sardinia? Unfortunately, I don't know the number, but I think it's the something about five percent maybe. No. It's less. It's one point two percent. That means that we the production of Sardinia is, very low, very small. And that that's why we have, some, zones that, as, subregions, on the Canal DOC that are not known in this place. We produce, the wines in centuries. But, the big problem is the quantity. There is not enough quantity to distribute, and they prefer to drink all the wine, in, in the area, in the sub region, or in the Highland. And I say they because, Arjola's, as a winery, we don't have any vineyards in these areas. And, actually, we are not, interesting in the go in this sub region. We have an offer to do in our village that, sir Diana, is the name of our village. It's the second village in Sardinia in term of, number of hectares of vineyards. And then, we have enough, to make here. We have a different, kind of, you know, the soups on, in Sard are more for internal consumer tourists that come here as million, you know, May to October, we have a million of tourists that come. They really enjoy this kind of wine, and they drink in the island. But there's not enough quantity to export it to send to other, outside to the to the highland. Also, I think is the philosophy of this producer. Tell all the wine in the highland, they don't need, to export to make money or to make, or they don't want to make more money, for that. What we suggest is come to Sardinia and, see Virginia. It's a small continent. We have a lot of, variety. For example, we have four hundred kind of, different brands. We have five hundred kind of, different grapes, and we promote only twenty, twenty two grades, different grapes. We have many, many, many. So there are a lot of thinks to discover still in Sardinia, and then, of, everyone can have a long life to, come to visit the island and to enjoy, this wise, in the islands. Thank you for an answer. I understand. I hope that I correctly understand that right now, there are no enough quantity of, vineyards and, wines on Sardinia to concentrate. And there is no really true and fair sense on concentrate to the sum single village or such like this. Is it correct? Yeah. Partially correct. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have enough quantity. And then, we we have this, villages where we produce a very good wines, but there is not enough quantity to, develop, and we need to work in developing, the the wine on this region more than we did in the past. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I understand. I understand, finally. The next one questions is more about, grape varieties. I remember your reply. If I, if if I can play a Garnatch and Canal, but I think that, you know, right now in the whole world, not wine personals, but final wine customers, and average understand what Caribbean can now and Vivintina are. But, sorry, but I I really think that average average wine customers really don't know anything about Monica, Naragos, Nosco, Simidano, and another type of aftertonos, local of Doctortonos, Sardinia grape varieties. Now, I understand that, you as a part of binary team really, hell and, doesn't like to compare some local of autonomous varieties with other grape varieties. But if we just mention that we need to explain a child or explain, basic wine customers what local thardinia grape varieties, with which varieties could you compare it and, how we could, not to distribute, you know, but to promote more effectively. Thank you for this, this question because Kanona, Carignano, Vermartino, are becoming a classic, also outside Sardinia. We are working a long time with these grapes, developing and speaking about this grape around the world, but about Monica, Nura, and Nakko, that we are, producing, since a long, long time, there are no many, many information. Then let's introduce, these two three different blades, and then, I will answer about the, which international comparison we can have. Monica. Monica is a red grape. There are two opinion different opinion, but someone think that the Spanish people planted Monica in Sard in twelve centuries. But there is no connection with any grapes, no DNA similarity, no any any information about any other grapes in in in the world that is not connected to any grapes that Monica is unique And probably the second opinion that the clinician in the eighth century before Christ, they planted this red grape in the high land. And, you know, century by century, the grape, develop and grow very easily in Sardinia. And it was the monks that planted this grape in, in the highland. The monks, in fact, we call Monachi. And the grape is called Monika. It was the grape of the monks. That, they used to cultivate here to make the wine Monica. The is the grape that grown, very well. And when we harvest, it's for blue color, is, it produced, a soft stunning wine with a fruity aroma of a red fruity Mediterranean, herbs, very light and gentle. That's a great great we drink in the highland historical with seafood. Nuraguz is, one of the most ancient grape that we cultivated in Sardinia, is, very rich, intense. It's the last grape we harvest every year in October. And, is it, as the grape is strong, also the wine of, intensity, turpan in the intensity in always, like, when you taste the ancestral version of, you will feel, standing sensations. And then, we we produce, in, as, actually, in Uruguay, it's called Salagas. That is the name of, small village where we grow this grape is the cheapest grape that, the, and the chipepper wine, we we we have, very successful, a bit, velvety and differ completely different than Verment, you know, this is more classy. The last grape is Nasco. Nasko is a Greek origin the name Nazko in Anchen Greek means, musk, you know, the mosque, then then the green grass that you have, in the forest. And, when you age the Nazko wine, you will feel, some musky in, the in the notes and the all factory north. NascO is, it was used to, blend with other grapes for for Vermont, for example, to make more, ball intense, fermentino. But, especially was, used it as the late harvest and Apacimento to make a sweet and that's why we as as our jobs, we produce angelic. That is, our, dessert wine. But, since the two thousand nine, Arjolas started to producing a dry version of Nasco. We started with a small quantity of ten thousand bottles. And today, we produced more than hundred thousand bottles. It was quite successful. And have some, smell of, yellow flowers, Mediterranean, herbs, rosemary team, on the on the mouth, have a fruit, like, a apricot, yellow peach, and a bit of, Balsamicton. And if you age the Nasco wine, you will have just a new things for us. We will have a very good sensation. And, the first vintage two thousand and nine is still drinkable after fifteen years, for a white wine from Sardinia. That's, very rare. And the demonstration of the successful of this grape is that, also our neighbors winery colleagues, they started to make the same wine in the same appellation that we reopen after thirty years because, when, you don't use an appalachian, they will, cancel. And then we ask the region of Sardinia to reopen the appalachian, and we do the the Nasco that is called Is thinking about the international, and Sardinia. So you you want, really, you want an answer of that, Hillia? I think that it, it is, it it will be very efficient for some, some young generation of wine specialists, you know, because not so many, similarly in the restaurant, the whole world feel high level of personal confidence. To survive and to sell, so unusual and the typical styles of wines. But I I really remember. Sorry. Sorry for for this answer for you, but I just need need to tell you a very short story, you know, as you already told, as I already told, Mary Vermentino, by arguellis, was the first very muchina from Sarddini and the first few months in total in my life. And I really remember that I found a label of this wine in my first restaurant in Saint Patrick, some years ago, and I just asked my first head summary, about this wine. What what is what is the bird, what is the lion, what is it, and, he just gave me a short comparing with some international grape varieties. And this short answer by these guys some years ago, really helped me to promote this style. And I understand that even now when I worked with my young generation of family in my restaurant right now here in Bakoui, Nader Bajum, I still used to compare Dimitino with some and other international styles to to to understand, to not to understand, but to explain, to young generation, what is it? And I think that it's okay. Okay. Really help. Okay. Okay. Then, I will answer, Monica, a journalist, when they told me that, is comparable to a pinot noir of the south. Pinot noir with the more, vols sensation, more, And because, Monica usually don't have too much color as a pinot noir. And the the gentleness, and the and the bit of acidity that, Monica have, we can say that there is some similarity of, of pinot noir. And, nazco. Nazco, I I have another story for Nazco. When Sardinia was distracted from the the the cross, it was attached to South France. Okay? And, if if you think on that, we have, Cariniano, and they have Cariniana. And then, also very close to the south of Spain, they have Carinna. We have Canalau and they have in the same area, Granace and Garnasha. And then, the there are many, many common things. Their role is the Vermentino that they produce in the South of France, and then we produce Vermentino. So that means that in the same, we are more close to this kind of approach. Then, then, I don't wanna say that we are French because we never befriend in the in term of, there is revalidity in, in the in the in between us, friendship, but the reality. And, but, in the in the in between us, friendship, but the reality, and, but, when turner, a bit older, become, like, a a version of cordial, and, that is, actually, the produce in the south of, of France. And then, that's, we we can compare to the the South France, production. So, sorry, sorry. Did you tell. Yes. Exactly. Yes. In Nasco, when you age a bit, the the it's very, very similar. And also you can age and you can have, more you age, more you have similarity with this. Okay. Giuseppe, I think that, think that the time is unfortunately over, but, I really want to say you thanks a lot for your time, for your participation. I don't know what about you, but for me, this, This hour was really, really important and really interesting. I hope that this information which you have already given to our guests was also interesting and important. And I really hope to share again during the next edition of Win Italy and verona. So thank you again for invitation of, yep. I'm happy. You you found this interesting, and that helps you for, the developer of your career and, for the future. Yes. Of course. So we will meet, again, in Verona, in Italy. And thank you to host us, in this, corner. And thank you, everybody. Wanton, it was a listening, Thanks. Thanks a lot. I agree with Elya. This was a beautiful interview. I'm sure we all have a lot of questions still to ask you, but this will be just the perfect excuse to come see you either at Vin Italy or in Sardinia. So thank you. And that's it. That's a wrap. Thank you everybody. I wish you a great day. Good bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Himalaya FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianwine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time. Chichi.