Ep. 928 Michael Markarian Interviews Sebastiano Castiglioni | Clubhouse Ambassador's Corner

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, from the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding course? Do you want to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Learn more and apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to this special Italian wine podcast broadcast. This episode is a recording off Clubhouse, the popular drop in audio chat. This clubhouse session was taken from the wine business club and Italian wine club. Listen in as wine lovers and experts alike engage in some great conversation on a range of topics in wine. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. And remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Hello, everybody. My name is Stevie Kim. Welcome to Italian wine club on Clubhouse. I'm just back from Pervine. I saw some of our Via community members there. So it was really, really nice to see them again. I don't see mock though. He's supposed to be the host tonight. Yeah. You're supposed to I I don't know. There's a bug going on right now. With Clubhouse, you just have to refresh the page and he's actually here. He's there. Okay. Excellent. Okay. I see the party hat. Okay. So welcome, everybody. We're going to get started. As you know, the ambassador's corners were a member from the Vineetale International Academy, gets to choose their favorite wine producer, and they do kind of this, you know, deep dot fireside chat with the producer of their choice. And, it's been quite a popular show we've started I believe way, way back. Our first episode was with Cynthia and Alvald Chotaska, way back in July. So it's been it's been about seven months now. And we are currently at what is what episode is this, like, okay. So this is the forty first episode right now. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So we've been going straight more or less forging ahead for forty one weeks. Now that sounds about right. We had just a short break during the, Vineetley marathon period, but otherwise we've been doing it every single weekend. That's also thanks to our clubhouse manager. Like us. So thank you. Great job, Leica, for doing that. You see also joy with the icons she's dancing on top of our table at the office? That's joy. That's our Italian wine producer. So, As you know, we get to replay this on Italian wine podcast to, start the show now. Today, our the Mod squad is mister Michael Markarion. Chow Michael. Charles Stevie. Charles Stevie, great to be with you. Oh my goodness. You know, Michael, I feel like you're a spy or something because I was just googling you. And I don't know if you want, we can, you know, you we can edit this part of the, from the podcast. But are you the same Michael Markarion from the humane society? Yes. I I am. That was my my career, in nonprofit work and doing animal welfare before I entered restaurants and wine industry. Oh, okay. So that that is you. I was like, that looks awfully like him, and he has the same name. I said, this is very odd. But it says nothing about that in any of the, it bio that I have with you. So, Michael, of course, he was part of our flagship VINital International Academy, edition two thousand and twenty two, we just met recently. And he he passed the exam. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. It was a great great course and great experience. We really remember that. There you go. Did you hear that, Leica? That little chairing thing? Yeah. Unfortunately, it's there. Okay. What do you mean? I'm doing my special effects today. Okay. So he passed the exam. He's currently a Psalm and the beverage director for some restaurants in Washington. Which restaurants in particular? So it's a three French, bistro's in Washington, DC and in Northern Virginia. They're they're called Shea billy suede Cafe Colleen, and Park Deville. Oh, is it owned by the same group? That's the same restaurant group, same executive chef, it's same ownership, and I do the beverage program for all three. One really, really, good question for you now is I don't want to put you on the spot. But have you got any Italian wines? I do have a few Italian wines, even though it a French concept. I I love Italian wines and I bring some Italian wines into the restaurant. They're very food friendly, great, great for our guests, and great with the cuisine. Okay. Excellent. Listen, Michael. So, I know you lived in Italy for some time. What were you doing in Italy? Well, my wife and I were fortunate to, just live in the county area near Sienna for almost a year. We traveled around a bit. We visited a lot of producers, took I took some classes, in Siena, as well as in Ratto. Mostly traveled and and got to know the country and had a really wonderful experience, and it was it was part of that experience that, we we got to spend time at Cortrovella and really, really fell in love with the, the wines there. So you give a little away. You give it a away, but, how you found Cortrovella. Basically. Do you also speak Italian? Not not very well. Not very well. I I can I can get by on some of the basics, but, need to need to spend more time in there to brush up on it? So were there other reasons why you've selected, Coachevilla specifically Sebastian Castiglione, as your guest today on the call? Well, I the Cortabella wines are incredible. I mean, that's that's one, important factor for me. I I love the wines, but I think importantly, Cortabella under Sebastian's leadership has also been a real innovator and pioneer in a lot of different areas. They were one of the first, producers in Italy to become organic. They released one of the first Supertuscan white wines at a time, I I think that was was before, people were taking Italian white wines as as seriously as red wines. And one of the first to be biodynamic, and they really pioneered, plant based biodynamics as opposed to using animal products, in the treatments, which I think is is really innovative. And, you know, secondly, as Asomlier, I'm really interested in food and wine pairing and how wine works at the table. And Sebastian and I first met, over, a shared interest in plant based cuisine and have had some really wonderful dinners together pairing Quercivella wines with a really wide range of, of of different cuisines, you know, Japanese and Indian and others. And it really expanded my thinking on food and wine pairing and how to approach food and wine pairing and thinking about, you know, something like the umami flavors like miso and mushroom and how they match really well with something like an aged sangiovese. And that has been really influential for me, as someone who's who's looking at food and wine pairing in in exciting and new ways. Oh my god. That sounds terribly interesting. I hope you guys will be able to talk some about that. The, the plant based food pairing. I I'm I'm sure we will. I I you know, I think that some people often Sorry. I got the sniffles. I get a bit of a cold. But, you know, I think people often assume if you don't have meat at the table, you miss out on on big red wines, but approaching it in different ways with weight and texture of the dish, you know, with flavors like especially umami flavors like I mentioned. I think it can be really interesting, really unique and, help to enhance the guest experience. Okay. Excellent. I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Do you know Michael that, actually, you have two, co ambassadors from Via, working at Coachebala. One is Amelia. I don't know if you know, and sunny. Have you have you ever met them? I do I do know sunny a bit. I I don't know Amelia, But Yeah. They both work for, Coacheabella as I don't know if Sebastian can confirm that, but I think, they both still work there. Absolutely. Okay. There you go. How are you? Okay. So I'm going to leave you now so you guys just take it away. And, hopefully, I can come back for, if there are any Q and A in the very end. Or, I'm going to ask Joy to take over. Okay? See you later. Thank you, Stevy. Thank you. Well, Sebastianiano, it's great to be with you. Really, really pleased to introduce, Sebastian Ocio Castignoni, the owner of Quercabella, but also involved in so many other activities as an investor, an activist, an entrepreneur. It's great to have you with us, Sebastian. Thank you so much, Mike, and and thank you Stev like and Joy. As well for for having me, today. And, to answer your question, as T. V. Earlier question about, what connected, Mike, and and myself, apart from the great passion that we share for wine, the most important thing is that we share a passion, for animals. We we love to protect them. We want to remove them from the food chain and from any other activity where they're exploited or killed. Or tortured, and, this is what brought us together in the beginning. Mike did great work with the humane society. I'm also active, with, several, animal rights organizations and animal protection organizations. Like sea shepherd and and many others. And, so the this is this is also the leading, thought that brought me to take questionable in the direction it's taken over the years and and as as Mike was mentioning, we certainly were pioneers in in, becoming organic in nineteen eighty eight, and, and then taking a biodynamic route in two thousand. Although I was perplexed about the the use of of animal based products, even if in microscopic amounts in the biodynamic, technique and procedures. And, and so we decided to explore our own route, which is in fact much more in tune with with Steiner's own research, to do away with with, endogenous products, and and we now grow our own herbs and and and plants that we use in the preparations, and we mostly rely on cover crops in our in our plant based biodynamic. But this is this is, of course, a very long, very long subject, but very glad to be here and happy to answer any questions you have, Mike. And thank you again for having me. Well, great. Well, thank you. Thanks for for that introduction. I think we'll we'll definitely, I'd like to ask more about some of those topics, but maybe first, Sebastian, you could tell us a bit about Quercabella for people who may not be familiar with the the wines or the brand? Absolutely. In in a nutshell, Crercabella was was the dream baby of my father who was involved in completely different activities. He was an industrialist in in Latin America, but, he was a very passionate and and and, and knowledgeable wine connoisseur. So, to give you an idea, by the time I was twelve, I had visited with him all the main domains in Bordeaux, and burgundy, and tasted the wines. That was the kind of teaching that that he brought, to me. And So he was extremely passionate about, excellent wine, and at some point decided to have his own estate. So started with a very small piece of land in Tuscany, then expanded and then I further banded it to, the current size, which is, a hundred and thirty hectares of of vineyards, which, in acres, I think it's, it's roughly whatever it is, four hundred to five hundred acres of of, biodynamic vineyards, spread around Tuscany, mostly between Kianti Glasgow and, and, we always had a very, unique approach So you mentioned, Batar before, and we'll go back to that. But our, flagship red wine, Camartina, was in fact one of the very first Supertuscans. At the time, there was only Susicaya and Tianelo when we started making Camastina. So you can imagine that there was quite innovative, as well. And, you know, from the very beginning, we set out to go against, prejudice and, and, and, and false knowledge. So for instance, you know, that many people say that, Medloan, Cabernet, and these grapes are French grapes and they don't belong to Tuscany, which is completely wrong. Cabernet has been cultivated in Tuscany for centuries. And in fact, it was part of four, official wine denominations in the seventeen hundreds. So way before the French even had wine denominations. So cabernet being grown in Tuscany is is the most obvious thing there is. And that's why we researched that and and developed our first, important super Tuscant around it. But as you mentioned, we also, we we did, produce the first, white super tuscan, which is called Batave. And, this stemmed from my father's great passion for Burgundy White, I I every day of his life that I can remember, he had a bottle of a phenomenal, burgundy white on the table, from all the variations of Morache including Morache itself, but, you know, all the various. Bata Morashi, Hassan Morashi, and so forth, to many others. And, so he set out to produce a white and tuscany from, high altitude, vineyards that was made in this style of burgundy whites. So fermented in barrels, by the way, phenomenal barrels that came from burgundy for the purpose, and then, treated, like, like a true burgundy wine. And in fact, you've tasted it a few times, but that is a wine that develops over the long, term. And I've recently had, a bottle of nineteen ninety five, which is now a perfect maturity, and it's phenomenal wine. Absolutely no sign of of decadence. And, this is, as you know, it's pretty outstanding for any Italian white. But we started with Camartina, our our flagship red in nineteen eighty one, Vata in nineteen eighty eight. And then, we've since, always tried to challenge a status quo and do things in an innovative way. We're we're not afraid of, and we're not afraid of, of, of change and of being innovators? Well, that's that's great. That's a a great, origin. I I wanna go back to Batar a bit. That's, you know, one of my favorite wines. I think one of the greatest white wines, not just of Italy, but but in the world. And I would like to hear how it's changed, you know, since it was launched. How how the the name has changed or the assemblage has changed, or your approach to, making batar has changed over the years. Absolutely. Just, little history. So in nineteen eighty eight for Vintage, the wine was made of, Pinobranch and pinot gris. And it was called Batapino. Batar is an homage to the wines and my father at the war, you know, the Batar Marache, and, and it was a blend of the two pinos. And then later on, chardonnay was added as an ingredient, then the pinot gris was dropped. And the wine now for for many years, you know, and and went through, it became only and then we italicized the word. So it used to be spelled the French way, b a t a r d with a circumflex on the second a, and now it's called, butar, b a t a r, and which was a name chosen by, luigi Veronelli himself, because the French challenged us saying the word was part of the French AOCs, and so we decided to drop the d and assume a different name. And so now for, for a very long time, so since, nineteen ninety three, in fact, that wine has been a blend of Pinobranch and chardonnay fifty fifty more or less depending on the vintage. And, it's, it's been done within the same extremely careful way, over the years. And, and again, it's a wine that really shows its strength at least ten years after the vintage, not that it's not enjoyable when it's fresh and right away as you've tried yourself. I'm sure. But it's incredible how much more powerful and deep. It is when, when it it's had at least ten years, to, developed after after being released. Yeah. Another thing that, you know, really influenced me in terms of thinking about how to serve wine is at some of our dinners, you know, we've had Qatar as the final wine after a number of red And, you know, most people would serve a white wine first at a meal, but to end with a batar and it's it's richness and depth and and concentration, especially an aged batar. I I found really, really interesting. That that's a fantastic point. And, you know, I I routinely serve white wines after major reds at my dinners, and people are always surprised that I'm sure we share the passion for riesling, for instance, and and close and tune is is my favorite. Three box close and tune is my favorite wine to show everyone, what an amazing white wine can have in death. And and I do serve older vintages about the, after reds. But one important thing, Mike, that I think we need to and you're an ambassador, and I and I try to educate people in general as well. But I always try to to tell people don't ever assume that you have to finish one wine before you start the next. What is fun about wine tasting is having lots of wines in front of you and going back and forth. Until the end of the dinner. So don't ever hesitate to go back and taste the first wine and the second and the third during different moments of a meal. The old fashioned way of thinking there is one wine pair with one dish is so boring. I don't even want to think about it, which brings me to what you were mentioning before. Wine pairing for the for the twenty first century is a completely different game. It it's, you know, the the point is that beautiful flavors and aromas live together in harmony and create a fantastic experience. They don't have to be matched as if you wanted to mix them in a blender because that doesn't make any sense. What what is fantastic is the sequence of of sensations that that you experience and and how you enjoy different wines and different flavors and how they all play together. And the real magic of of a phenomenal dinner, and you and I have experienced some together, and and and hopefully we'll experience many more, is that the the overall experience plays well together. And when you look at the table and you see a fourteen, sixteen, or twenty glasses with beautiful wines, and you go back to thinking, and and tasting, and and and smelling them and and you think of the aromas and all the games that that that they played during the night, then it's a great satisfaction. Yeah. But we we really need to rethink the way wine and food are enjoyed. And one fundamental point is there's absolutely no need to eat corpses of dead animals, to enjoy wine. That is an absurdity that that needs to stop with, you know, as soon as possible. Well, I think it's a good reminder just thinking about wine and food pairing creatively and and having unexpected pairings or unique pairings, things that things that you don't, assume would be would be classic or traditional. What what are some of your favorite food and wine pairings? If since we're on that topic, maybe tell us about, you know, some dishes or or wines wine pairings that have been particularly memorable or surprising for you? Well, for instance, something that, is not too often explored is beautiful, red wines, and chocolate. And so we've had experiences where we served, a flight of five or six reds with different expressions of chocolate or or, you know, single origin chocolates a taste just to to explore the depth of the interaction of wine and chocolate, and it and it's phenomenal. Our own wines, Camartina, and Palafrino, both are incredible with when paired with chocolate. So that's a little out of the of the beaten path, and I think it works really well, which is not to say that, you know, the phenomenal, token beer and house laser will not work with chocolate, but it's just, you know, to experience something different. And then There's an entire range of flavors that you mentioned before. The whole depth of umami in all of its most incredible expressions, is the perfect platform to taste beautiful red and white wines. And and I'm a particularly a fan of of Asian cuisine in general. I'm a big fan of Chinese cuisine. Japanese cuisine, of course, is extraordinary. But I've, paired, beautiful white wines, for instance, with Thai food, even if it's spices, spiciest expression, and it's a phenomenal experience. So, I think that the the explorations can can be infinite and, and bearings, especially for you and me as as as lifetime vegans, can be three in the, rewarding, when when we explore the the little nuances of all, the vegetables. And just think of root vegetables and how deep they can go and think of pumpkin and everything that's roasted and then also fresh vegetables. I'm I'm a big fan of, salads where you limit the the acidic side, limit the vinegar side, and, for instance, serve a dressing base on tofu which is which is phenomenal tofu and soy sauce blended as a dressing for a beautiful fresh salad lends itself to perfection to pairing with both white and red wines of substance. Well, that that sounds wonderful. And it's it's it's lunchtime here in the United States. So the the food discussion is gonna gonna make us hungry, but it sound sounds great. I love love Thai food, one of my favorites as well. Going back to some of the wine making, I I I'd love to hear about some of the practices at Cortcabella, both in the vineyard and in the wine cellar that you think are really critical to achieving a house style. You have a diverse line of wines, I mean, from Qatar to to, mangroana, to Camartino, but what, what, what kind of practices are you using to to create that that diverse line of wines? Well, that that's an excellent question. I would say that the Oliver wines have a very clear style in common And I'm I'm going to be as provocative and as an extreme as I always am. Okay? So, our wines are very well crafted and clean. Our wines will not ever have defects because those are not acceptable and they're not justifiable. So reduction or or other defects or volatile compounds are the result of of, improper winemaking. They're not a quality And, let me open a small parenthesis here because this needs to be mentioned in every place possible. I cringe when I when I hear and read again and again and again of people making wines saying they're sulfite free, for different reasons. The first one is, sulfites are a byproduct of alcoholic fermentation. So imagine nature figured out that when sugar turns into alcohol, the two byproducts are c o two and sulfites. Now you can imagine if sulfites were not meant to be into wine, if nature would not have, you know, made it part of the natural process of fermentation. So first thing. And then the second thing is research now confirms in a very clear way that, what, people blame, you know, for their allergies or or or any other manifestations or headaches and so forth. When people blame sulfites, they're wrong. The cause is actually compounds called biogenic amines, which are, similar to histamines. So, you know, what triggers allergies? And guess what, wines made without sulfites have a much higher, chance of developing toxic quantities of biogenicamines. So I hope we can put the whole discussion of salt fight free wine to rest forever and forget about it. But, talking about the practices that make our wine special. So, first of all, you know we are extremist on non interventions. Non intervention, which means we don't add any substance during wine making. And, wine drinkers should know that, while obviously, it's absurd to spray pesticides and horrible chemical substances on grapes. Most of the chemical substances that you will find in Finnish wines are added during vidification, even under organic standards. So we take an extreme stance on this, and we do not add anything, during the process. We keep it under control. We control temperature very strictly, but we are very, keen on using only wild yeast, which means the grapes are put in a vat, and they start fermenting because of the yeast that are naturally present on them, and nothing is added. The horrible trend of culture yeast coming from France imparting a strawberry flavor or banana flavor to wine artificially is is repulsive to me. And so if you want a wine that really tastes of and and expresses the territory it comes from, obviously, you don't want to have endogenous yeast coming cultivated in a lab on the other side of the planet to ferment your grapes. And by the way, if you have healthy and good grapes and plants, you will not need, these, cultured yeast. You will be very fine with your, existing indigenous yeast. Another trait that's very important is, your wine can only be as good as your grapes are to begin with. So that is why we use our own plant based biodynamic techniques to make the soil as lively as possible. Let's go back to elementary school, you know, knowledge of plants. A plant is in a in a pot, with soil. And you add water and that soil nourishes the plant. And the entire mechanism is based on microorganisms that turn whatever substance is there with the help of water into nourishment for the plant. Now imagine what happens if you spray a chemical substance that kills every microorganism in the soil. Then of course, the soil cannot nourish the plant. Therefore, you have to use chemical fertilizers because otherwise there's nothing to nourish the plant. And there you start a cycle where you're basically nourishing a plant with substances that should not be there to begin with. Reverse the entire image and look at our soil for years and years. Now it's been decades. No chemical substances whatsoever. A very life soil, the difference between dead soil and life soil is enormous. You know, normal cultivated land is dry and tends to die because of chemical substances. And organic biodynamic soil is very lively. It's full of life at every level. Micro organism insects. Birds visiting from all over the place, other creatures, you know, roaming all over the place. And then there's cover crops. Cover crops are plants that you plant in the soil to nourish the soil. So for instance, if you plant legumes in a vineyard, they will supply nitrogen to the soil, which otherwise gets depleted over time. So imagine our vineyards at Crestabella and you can see the pictures in our website full of plants. We plant up to thirty six different kinds of plants between rows of vines, to keep the soil alive and to nourish the soil back with the substances that the that the vines normally absorb. So creating a a wonderful, balance of, you know, substances that go into the grapes and therefore get flavor to the wine. And to explain it in a very basic way, we all have tried buying, you know, or maybe, you know, eating a carrot from our own garden organic or buying a conventional carrot from the store. One has a lot of flavor. The other one has nothing. Now imagine if you wanna make wine, which is start from an organic grape that is nourished by beautiful soil it has all the flavors in the world or from a conventional grape that has been nourished only by chemical fertilizers. The answer is obvious. Yeah. You talked a lot about the health of the soil and the health of the environment for the grapes, and we mentioned Corciovela was one of the the first in Italy to be organic. I mean, what what was it like at that time? What what was the process like, at a time before many others were considering organic Viticulture? Well, I'll tell you the the there there are different aspects to it. First of all of course, we were, considered crazy, but I'm used to that. I'm always, you know, swimming against the main current, so I don't mind. But, At the time, I'll tell you a funny story. I had to, go against my father as well. He was a very traditional person. He would not have understood organic, at, at all. So in nineteen eighty eight, I plotted with the with our new winemaker to turn the entire state organic, and we did. And I told my father we had become organic only ten years later. And I asked him a question, and I said, what would you think? If we turn organic today, and, and, you know, we turn the entire winery organic. And this is ten years after we had done it. And he said, absolutely not. It's impossible. It would never work. It's complicated. Then the wines wouldn't come out. And I said, well, guess what? Within organic for ten years now. So I guess it works. I didn't even mention to him that we when we switched to biodynamic because, that would have been too too much for him. But, Anyway, we were the joke of of the area. Of course, everybody said we've always done things this way. Why should it be changed? And, you know, lo and behold, of course, nowadays, everyone around us in Tuscany is either organic or pre tends to be organic, which is still the main, the main trend, unfortunately. So people, you know, claiming to be organic and in fact spraying, behind the scenes. But, we, of course, move forward with our with our very, advanced plans, and we're we keep innovating, as we go and, you know, on average, everyone else is ten years behind. Fascinating. Fascinating. I I'd love to hear more about the plant based biodynamics. I mean, we know a lot of, biodynamic treatments, traditionally involve animal products like cow horns or deer bladders, What are some of the methods that you are using at Cortri Bella. You mentioned cover crops. I mean, what are what are some of the things that are really important to your approach with biodynamics there at the estate? Well, okay. So we we need to we need to clarify a few things. So cover crops are are an important and integral part of biodynamics in general, and they can be practiced to the extreme, like we do with an enormous variety of plants and studies to see what influence the difference plants and have on different vineyards in different areas because that's very important. You may have a vineyard that's depleted of nitrogen, but you may have another one that has an excess of copper or, you know, a different different mineral balances. And what you do is you analyze the soil. Figure out what's missing or what's too abundant, and then you study a combination of plans that you, plan to bring balance back. Because the basic concept is, of course, you know, Viticulture as a monoculture. So it's alien as a concept in nature. And what you wanna do is recreate an ecosystem that brings other plants and other agents of nature inside the balance so that the soil and the small ecosystem of the vineyard, can bring go back to balance itself. Then there's the other chapter in Biodynamics, which is the treatment so called. So these treatments are, a mixture of, usually cow manure and other substances, herbs, and this and that. And normally, they, these substances are ripen or mature inside either a cow horn or a deer bladder or some other, you know, absurd, you know, devised like that. There's absolutely no reason on the planet to do that and to use animal parts or animal manure, for for the treatments in your vineyards. For one thing, green manure, which is you know, it's it's manure that is produced, with plants as a main ingredient as opposed to to cow extra excrement, is a much more natural fitting for your environment. Consider that whenever you use animal manure, you're bringing in, something from somewhere else, and it's usually cows that have eaten absolutely a natural sub and suspending some cases even antibiotics and hormones and other stuff like that, which of course you don't wanna spray in your vineyards. Green manure is produced with plants that grow in the same kind of soil and in the same area. Where you grow your your vines and you simply make sure this this, agreement or turn it into fertilizer, and it's the best thing possible that can happen. And there's absolutely no reason why this manure should mature inside a deer bladder or some other, you know, devilish, device of the sword because it's perfect as it is and it's natural as it is. So, part of our part of our strategy is, to use, cover crops as intensely and as scientifically as we can and also, preparation based on agreement or that we, create with plans that we cultivate ourselves. And, last but not least, I wanna mention, you know, when when people talk about biodynamics, they often think of the most esoteric practices that are based on positions of the planets and and, you know, and and and and other, you know, pieces of information of that sort. Now I again, we went very deep in this. And with in collaboration with scientists, so plant biologists and other, we studied the most fundamental, an important factor, which is the gravitational interaction between, the earth, the moon, and the sun. As we all know, these are gigantic forces. These are the forces that move tides. They move entire oceans up and down. And, scientist biologists, plant biologists have discovered that these gravitational forces have a fundamental effect on the life of plants. So The reason why you plan to certain times of the day, or during certain lunar phases is not esoteric, astrology or stupidities or or or or prejudices. It's because the movement of sap, the movement of liquids and nutrients inside the plants changes during the day with moon phases. So you can observe as a plant biologist the movement of liquid inside a plant drastically changing several times a day depending on the gravitational interaction between the moon and the earth. So what scientists are still studying, there isn't a full formula or full manual of how to apply it. But basically take the old tradition and and, you know, farmers used to plant at certain times used to harvest at certain times because they obtain different results. So based on tradition and based on contemporary studies, we're devising, new ways to deal with planting and harvesting that are, that take advantage of these phenomenal forces that are the gravitational forces, and we study that. So forget, constellations and stupid references to astrology, which is, of course, absurd but astronomy, physics and and plant biology and and and mathematics all together in data science are showing us a new way to approach agriculture that is in tune with nature as a whole? It it it makes a lot of sense when you put it in that context. I mean, think about how the gravitational pull impacts, plant life, and sap, I mean, it would certainly, help determine when to do things like pruning in the vineyard and and other activities like that. Absolutely. It it certainly does. And you and you do see different results. I'll I'll just tell you this. We have, different universities in Tuscany coming to study our vineyards. And one of the things that that surprises them is, if you look at the different approach to planting a vineyard, traditional way was to, imagine this completely take out the top soil, rip the soil in-depth, put the top soil back, plant devines and then wait four to five years for the first harvest. And, of course, that's because you're basically killing everything in your soil. Destroying a topsoil that's taken centuries normally too. Settle and mature, and and starting from scratch. Our way to plant vineyards is we do a one year of cover crops on bare soil with no vine in sight And of course, we don't disturb the topsoil, but we plant as many, plants we can to revitalize the soil as much as needed. And this is sometimes one year, sometimes two years of complete rest. Then we plant the vines. And in two years, on average, we get a plant that's the size of what you get in five years in conventional soil. And the universities are coming to study this and it's really funny because when they have to date our plants and say how old they are, they always give him at least three years more of age because of how they developed. But imagine a plant that grows in a soil where it's happy and well nourished and balanced and can really express its best, and that's what you get. So there's there's a lot of complexity in the processes and absolutely, zero, superstition and prejudice and and and and and magic. Okay. So think of biodynamics as the application of of modern scientific principles, based on, century old or even thousand year old traditions in farming. Yeah. And I've I've had the the privilege of, seeing your vineyards, in ruefully visiting the area such a such an area with such natural beauty surrounded by forests. Can you talk about some of your efforts to protect biodiversity and wildlife in the area and any of the conflicts that might arise? You know, with wild animals, a chingale being so close to the vineyards? Well, the the the harsh reality is that you need to fence your vineyards to to keep deer and wild boars out. Otherwise, they will eat all the grapes. They have great taste. They know when their grapes are ripe and they will wipe out a vineyard in one night. So, you have to fence for that. Our fences are studied so that they don't disturb any other aspect of the interaction with wildlife. So every other animal roams free, foxes, hares, and and we have an enormous variety of birds, which, by the way, are the best at keeping insect populations at bay. And and birds, of course, are super happy to, live and and interact with with all the plants that grow between our vines because they find nourishment there. And, this also brings me to the subject of bees, bees, which are unfortunately in one of the species industrially exploit to exploit it to produce honey. Those are not the bees that keep nature alive. It's a wild species of bees that you need to nourish and and nurture. And that's what we do again with our cover crops. So we have a gigantic population of bees that live between the forests that surround our vineyards and all the plants that we supply them with in the vineyards, during, throughout the year. So imagine, the advantage of having vineyards that are pollinated by wild bees that come from the forest. That is one of the biggest advantages you have when you conduct organic and biodynamic practices the right way. That's great. We we talked about your your Kianti, estate in Grive, and you also have, production in the Marima. In Tuscany. And one of my favorite wines, from the Marima, of course, is Magrana. We pour, the Magrana red, by the glass at our restaurant, and, and everyone loves it. It's it's delicious. And I know that you recently launched a new wine of Montrana Bianco. It's new to me. I don't think I've seen it yet in my market, here. But can you tell us about, the new release, the new mogranobianco and how you see the Marima area playing, a role in the future? Well, it it's a great question. So, Mogranobianco arose from the same spirit that brought the other wines from Marima, Mungrana, and Turpino. And, it is the excitement we have of growing grapes that benefits so much from the interaction with the sea. In Sierra, I'm sure you've noticed in these wines, and you will notice in the Monranavianco, the salty element is phenomenal. It's just undoubtedly there. And if you taste these wines, and you're close to the sea, you immediately see the the relationship and and and it and it comes to you in a very strong way. So just as a as a reminder, our vineyards in Marima are not directly on the coast. There's the sea, then there's a phenomenal natural park called, Parco de Lucilina, which has a ridge of mountains. So We get sea air, but mediated by this beautiful natural park, a natural park where all kinds of wildlife live free all the way to the beach. So if you go to the beach on the park, which is completely wild, you have wild boards roaming on the beach. You have wild even wild cows live in this forest. So imagine the sea air mediated by this beautiful park comes across these mountains and then lands on our vineyards and and brings, all sorts of flavors and and aromas and substances that make the wines, very exciting. So is the expression, the white expression of this. So it's it's made with, Vermentino, and it's live in crisp and salty and and beautiful. And to my surprise, I did not expect this, but I'm seeing that as it evolves in a bottle, it gets so much deeper than we even imagined when we started making it. So, it's it's a beautiful surprise. And to add curiosity, I'm sure you're gonna be very eager to taste it in the most recent vintages. We will add, some vignette to the blend, which I think is a perfect balance for a wine like that. It it interesting. I I I can't wait to try it. I love Vermitino. It sounds sounds fascinating. Back to Kianti Classico, there there's a a recent, effort that's been initiated, to approve the use of UGA on the labels for Kianti Classic. So what do you think about this effort to identify sub zones or a more specific sense of place for Keonti Classic wines? And do you see this as being an important, issue in the future for Quercabella's bottlings? Well, we we have been advocates of of, mentioning zones and and exalting zones, for years. And in fact, once again, we've been running against you know, the the the the crowd as always. So, to tell you how much we believe in this, I'll explain, since two thousand and ten, we have been producing what we call our crew wines So we have single vineyard wines from three different areas. And we have, made these wines. We have matured them, and we have bottled them, and we have not released them yet. So when we release them, which, very likely, is gonna be twenty twenty three, we will have at least ten vintages of single vineyard crews, that are just extraordinary. And, to give you an idea, a friend, Galloni, who has, has been one of the few critics to taste these wines, in preview, has given different vintages of these wines, ninety seven, ninety eight point and and these wines are extraordinary. So we are strong supporters and believers in in in in mentioning and and and exalting individual zones and even individual vineyards and VOD. Like the French have done forever, and and and of course we need to do as soon as possible. Well, that that's that's great to hear. Again, ahead of your time, getting getting these bottlings ready, a single vineyard cruise, look look forward to those being available on the market. We're approaching the top of the hour. Right? This has been a really fascinating conversation Sebastian. Was there Anything else, you'd like to tell us about your efforts before I turn the floor back, to to Stevie or Joy? Well, first, I I wanna thank you again for the opportunity to, to talk about these things. And one thing I would like to mention is, and and it's kind of a challenge for for everyone listening. I love, approaching every activity with a new view, a new eye, a new site, a new idea. And, I think the most interesting approach to food and wine nowadays is leaving behind the exploitation of animals used as ingredients or as food, which doesn't make sense, and it's an ecological disaster, and trying to figure out new ways and new approaches to, you know, a healthier, more harmonic way of of tasting wine and food. And and I think that's it's it's it's a challenge, but it's a fun challenge, to rethink our traditional menus and ideas and see them all in new light. A light that is in harmony with the planet, with nature, and with our own health. Well, Sebastian, thank you. It's it's always great to talk to you. I I always learn so much listening to you. Thanks for the conversation about, biodynamics and food and wine pairing and the environment and everything else. And, great to great to be with you, and I will turn the floor back to our moderator, Stevie. Did you guys hear that? We did. You guys. I Sebastian, first of all, Michael, thank you so much for choosing Sebastian. I had never listened to him before. It was absolutely I was supposed to go away actually earlier. But I wanted to stay because your, presentation of especially the biodynamic farming is mesmerizing and very incredibly convincing. I would Sebastian, where do you live? Do you live stateside or or? Normally in Switzerland, but I'm in the states very often. So I I think we need to get you back both of you because, we I would love to have you at wine to wine. Michael, maybe you can moderate. We should definitely present this to a larger audience. I don't know if you know we do a wine business forum every year towards towards November. We'll give you some details. And if you can come back live in person and present this to a larger audience, I would I think apps everyone would absolutely be flawed. My thing. I'd be on. Expertise. And and just the you're such a great presenter. Okay. I I, you know, I'm I was tongue tied, basically. I was a little, you know, I was doing multitasking in the beginning as well, but I, as I was listening to you, I said, we we need to get this dude back. Thank you so much for doing that. And, Michael, great job. You you are a great ambassador in choosing, Sabastano. I love everything that you have said. And I think it will be terribly interesting for not just our students and the via community, but everybody. So I hope you can really come back I do have to close-up the room, because, I have another thing to do at seven o'clock. Like, do you wanna tell us our next, clubhouse call? Hey, I'm sorry. You'd like to interrupt you, but I wanna thank you. And I I will certainly be happy to join you. I have to I have to jump off as well. So I wanna say thank you to you and and Mike and everyone. And everyone who listened today and unfortunately need to jump, but thank you so much and we'll absolutely be in touch. Yeah. There's a dude just saying Luke Mcdonald, hello from Tokyo, Japan. Amazing discussion. I agree detailed presentation. Very interesting, learn about your wines. Thank you, Sabastiano. Thank you very much. I think we can sign off. Micah, just quickly, who's coming up next? Okay. It's gonna be on Thursday, May nineteenth. That will be six PM, the same time, as podcast and and recording with. Yeah. Okay. Very good. Thank you everybody. Chata got c. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast brought to you by Vineetli Academy, home of the gold standard of Italian wine education. Do you want to be the next ambassador? Apply online at benetli international dot com For courses in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Remember to subscribe and like Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundLab, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find our entire back catalog of episodes at Italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Lemings Denon. I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.