Ep. 49 Monty Waldin interviews Sean O'Callaghan (Il Guercio wine project in Chianti Classico) | Discover Italian Regions: Tuscany / Toscana

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monte Walden. My guest today is Michael Schmeltzer of the Monte Bernard winery in Panzano in the heart of Tuscany's Canticlassico region. Welcome Michael. Thank you, Monty. So, Mark, let's start by talking a little bit about your family. You, you have a German American background and your family bought the estate in two thousand and three. Is that right? That's correct. My father's German, my mother's American. Basically, we ended up at property with an idea of bringing all the family together with this idea of running, family winery. I was already in Australia on a path to making wine, and my sister was in another part of the world in Germany. My parents were thinking about the retirement a little bit further ahead. And it was actually my sister who, came up with the idea, said, well, what if you return on some vineyards? Maybe Michael and I could make a business out of it. So we kind of started with that idea and looked for the perfect place. My parents would enjoy their retirement with their kids around, and my sister and I could actually get a wine business together. So So your sisters, Jennifer, who actually discovered, that Monta Bernard was up for Say Actually, it was, Sean O'callaghan when we, were first looking in this area. I knew Sean, a few years before we started looking for a property. It was Sean briefly? Sean is, a friend who had been making the wine at winery and Guyli called Reachne for many, many years. He actually inspired me to go into winemaking because he was the first foreigner in Italy that I met that was making wine, and it kind of made me think that it was actually something you didn't have to be born in. So was kind of actually a critical piece to me that I needed when I was already saying, yeah, I don't wanna go the food route, which was my first passion. You studied culinary art, didn't you? That's right. I did the whole cuisine pasted degree at La Cordon Blue. And this States? No. In Paris and in in London. The Paris part, we would, visit winemakers, talk about winemaking philosophies, and it really started my wine bug. And then I met Sean, and that was the last piece that I needed. I was like, I know exactly what I wanna do. So But you grew up in rural America. Is that right? I grew up in, actually, not rural, but suburban America in my younger years than, Michigan suburbs of Michigan. And then we moved to Germany because of my father's career. And I finished high school in Germany. I was actually born in Italy by chance, which probably made me always very aware of things Italian and kind of an abnormal pride for things Italian. How come you were born here by chance? Did your mom not realize that she was, you just popped out? Or how did that work? No. My father's career, had us move quite a bit when we were younger, and then towards the end of our our, at least my life, with my family, when living with my parents, So we moved to Germany in my early teens. I finished high school in in, international school in Germany, and that really accelerated my passion for food. I started working kitchens, and I worked in German restaurants, and then primarily Italian restaurants. And I said, I wanna make a go of this. So I I started learning about, culinary arts and decided on going to La Court on Blue in Paris, and, and, by the time I finished the degree, which was in the summer hiatus of my undergrad degree at c u Boulder. I think I already knew I didn't wanna pursue the culinary arts for my profession. So it was very good timing that I I got introduced to this world of wine that I now find myself in. So when you or your family acquired Montebinardi, it already had like nine hundred years plus of of history. Was that a big resp even bigger responsibility? Or was it an advantage? That's a great question. I think I should say that I I studied wine making Viticulture in Australia, and it was such a phenomenal experience for me because there you don't really have a lot of history of winemaking practices. You can find every grape variety grown there extremely perfect climate to grow a lot of these grapes, but, you don't have a lot of the culture and history behind those winemaking practices and styles. So they might all be made in a kind of similarly modern way. When I arrived, I just absolutely loved all the wines there and the varieties, and they were so generous and so obvious. But by the time I got towards the end four years, I think I kind of knew that I had, you know, my palette was changing, and I was becoming more aware of European styles and subtle kind of characteristics in wine. So it was great in the sense that when I came to Montebennardi, I had a pretty clear idea I wanted to make something that could only be made not only in Candice Glasgow, but at Montepinardi in Panzano in Kianti. So every decision really that I've made since the beginning has been to try to keep it as simple as straightforward as possible in the winery and just kind of emphasize the place and the climate and the qualities that are inherent to this very small part of county classical. Some of your early ventures like two thousand and five, for example, were incredibly tough, and already kind of chosen the organic stroke biodynamic root. How did you deal with that? That's right. I'd look at that as being extremely fortunate because I, was tested early, let's say, because I, I had a lot of theory. I, I was into biodynamics in Australia, but I didn't have a lot of practice us under my belt, so especially in the vineyard. So having a challenging year like two thousand and five basically taught me that in a wet, difficult vintage, because it was quite wet towards the end of the year, near harvest, giving your vines kind of the best support from the ground up makes them stronger and more resistant to pests and diseases. And neighbors who maybe were more taking a more conventional approach actually had mold problems sooner than we did and lost more fruit and had, I think, weaker results of the final quality. But did they just see that as you begin his luck? Oh, this new guy, he's, you know, he just said that we got a bit lucky this year? Well, no Italian will ever admit that you may something better than they did. So I certainly don't think anyone was patting me on the shoulder and say, oh, you made an amazing two thousand and five, but the great years often give me less satisfaction. You know, they feel like the easy is. Yeah. The easy years in a sense, one, they're a little bit overly generous, and then there's a lot of great wines in that vintage. The truly satisfying years are those kind of more challenging vintages like twenty fourteen, like two thousand and five. When I looked back in the last few years, actually, two thousand fourteen, it gives me more satisfaction than many of the other, like, twenty thirteen is the better vintage. No doubt, but twenty fourteen gives me more satisfaction because we we worked so well in the vineyard. We had very healthy grapes farming organically, never compromising goals that we've set out from day one, and we resulted with some of my favorite wines that I've ever made. So so I think, I've learned from experience that we're overly you learn in school to be overly conservative and overly protective, overly protective, and you don't know what's possible until you kind of push the limits. That being said, I'm not someone who's gonna risk my family's future spraying something like milk whey that could end up having me lose, you know, half my crop because I want to be a pioneer in in using less, or no copper, let's say. I'm definitely conservative in my approach but I can probably say that we've never used anything that we, said that we wouldn't do from day one. And I feel more confident now than ever that we over rely on those things and and that we can pull back from those places and even in less areas, we can lower our spray though dosages lengthen the time between sprays and, still come out with very high quality, healthy grapes at the end of the year. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about Canti Classicco, and the region as a whole and the kind of the politics of it. Most people involved in wine, certainly in Italian wine, and people who love San gervais sees Canti Glasgow is one of the great wines on the planet, not just in Italy. But if I walk into any decent white fine wine shop, I'll find probably a dozen brunellos, a dozen red borders, a dozen red burgundies, and I'll find at most one or two Canticlassical. Why is that? That's an extremely frustrating thing as a Canticlassical producer. That to me is a direct result of the way we market and sell the wines of Canticlassico, more of a brand and less about the territory of Canticlassico. Canticlassico is an enormous region. It's eight thousand hectares or twenty thousand acres of vineyards planted to call them all just Canticlassico and not focus on the subregional distinctions of that enormous area, it it handicaps our our ability to sell the wine because a retailer is not going to have ten Canticlos if they're they're in the eyes of the consumer are all replaceable by another one, from the same region. That's why we need to talk about having a kente classical from Rada, a kenti classical from Panzano, a kenti classical from Castelina. It opens the whole market up for everyone, you know, retailers and us as producers. So it's a bit like the Burgundian model. It is. It is. It is. It gets the same kind of And it allows us to dig deeper into the region and find more things to become passionate about to sell those wines. So we can talk about the rocky soils of the center part and the steep slopes or the sandy lower softer rolling hills of the north that, you know, are extremely bright and extremely delicious unit. There's I love all the regions of Kenta Glasgow, and I think they each have their individual characteristics that make them special. But, we are as producers, we are incentivized to put that at the back and focus on our brand like a big chateau might do. And that hurts the overall ability of of the greater amount of producers in Canticlasico to sell their wine. But you're a good salesman though. Is that, you know, you you think of myself as I've been told I am be I think it's just because I came here for a passion to make Canticlasico and Sanjuvezi, and I do think it's the greatest region of Sanjuvezi in Italy. That's my personal opinion. I love perfumed more aromatic, more elegant versions of Sanjuvezi. So compared to Montecina, which is a hotter, more southerly region, and it's much cooler here and more enclosed by Woodland and and mountain. Exactly. And, you're too polite to say. But a lot of people agree with you. You know, Cantic classical is almost a lot easier to drink than many brunelles. Yeah. It's much more versatile, but it still has great ageability. It doesn't have that mom stress, structure that, some younger Bernillos can have. I mean, just to prove the point is I much rather drink a Roso from Montalcino than a Bernillo nine times out of ten. There are also multi chance of wine may not even see any wood is released within a year of the harvest. Yeah. Exactly. And it's quite sort of fresh and fruity. It's more like a candy, isn't it? Yeah. It is. It's more like a candy from the better producers who treat it with softer hands. Let's say, I mean, let the variety speak for itself, I think. So as well as talking about the sort of regional, all the villages within the Canti Classic area. What are the main soil types you have at Montipinari? Because I think you got three of the main ones. Right? Yeah. We're pretty lucky. We have two of the classic ones, the glass true is our predominant soil pansano. Bullish cholesterol. It's a shale. It's a petrified clay, and it's purple and brown. Other parts of kente classical can be more white and light brown, but for aria's purple brown. That's probably at least eighty percent of Panzano is on on the Galestro. Then you have limestone alberezi, which is the second most predominant soil in Panzano, but we only have about ten percent of that. And then we have a rare sandstone called Piete Forte with, veining of quartz. That is a very old hard stone that, we are the only producer. I think in Panzano that, has sangiovese on that soil type. So what what is how does San Giovanni's taste or aroma or even color change on the cholesterol compared to the Arinaria and compared to the Alberdez? Interniently, the Pietre Forte, the Sandstone, and the limestone are lighter more reflective. So you're gonna get more tannin production and skin, so more structured sangiovese. You can also get a darker berry fruit spectrum because you're getting that added sunshine. Whereas the cholesterol is dark, it absorbs heat radiates heat at night. You don't really get any extra reflection. So to me, you get a kind of a softer juicier, maybe perfumed, send you a vasey, from that one. So I love both versions, but, our retro Marcha Kenticlasco, which is seventy percent of our production has all three blended in. So I think it gets the best of all three soil types. But our age where the sciata on the sandstone, pure sandstone is my favorite. It's a truly unique, x expression of sangiovese that that, that we're very fortunate to have. So you're a very forward looking guy, but you, you made a wine called retro Marcher. What does that mean in Italian? Yeah. Retro Marcher was the first wine that we got actually create the name for, and it means to reverse, to go backwards. I wanted to say that we were going back to kind of simple straightforward Canticlassico that tasted like Canticlassico because I felt like a lot of the Canticlascos made when we arrived were a little bit too international, a little bit less speaking of the place that they came from. A bit more border, like, border or Roan lake. Yeah. Bordeaux or Roan lake, but also just modern, you know, and, yeah, Oki, overly extracted. Some of my favorite characteristics about sangiovese is the generosity and the the approachability of it if it's treated in a more traditional style and larger boaty or you know, format longer aging cement tanks that give you great generosity, upon release, but that still ages very well. It doesn't really sacrifice the aging. So when you talk about the larger body, what you're meaning is aging, rather than aging it like a border and small barrels, which makes the candy classico taste very okay. You're talking about aging in much larger wooden casks. Exactly. Just to give a bit of a softness. We have, you know, we have barrels of two thousand three hundred liters to three thousand liters and actually just bought us thousand four hundred liter barrel that is arriving this year. The the main idea is that with larger barrels, you get less oxygen. So the evolution's slower, but to me, you allow the structure to become elegant and and then the flavor shavers and aromas come out slowly more in sync with the structure, without ever giving a woody taste to the lawn without giving the woody, but also for me, even if you have used Bareek, you get too much oxygen. I actually don't think I'm four is really the right thing for Sanju Vazie for for this area either because you bring out the fruit flavors too quickly, and the structure is too crude and raw. Sanjuvisi in this area is quite tannic and aggressive in its youth. Think if you tasted my Sanjuvisi out of tank and under twelve months, you would think were undrinkable that they change in the next six months is is tremendous. And it gives such a savory, well knit, beautifully elegant Sanjuvezi that is much more versatile, and age is better because it's had less exposure to oxygen. So I think we get the best of both worlds. And I think about this more than anything, what should we be giving our consumers a wine that can age for fifty years or twenty years or whatever you wanna say, or should we be trying to give them the most years of enjoyment? I think that we should be giving, the most years of enjoyment, which means you should enjoy it when it's released. And for many years onwards, you shouldn't have to say, oh, this is great, but needs three years. I mean, that's five percent of the your consumers are gonna keep it long enough to enjoy it at that point. You know, obviously you're not, Italian, and you're doing something a little bit different. Do you feel that you your peers are interested in what you do, they they think that you're doing a good job, or or is there not much communication? You know, your ideas obviously doing talk about marketing, the fact that you actually study this kind of thing, and you're talking about making wines that are incredibly versatile that almost you could sell it every single day. Ron, they say, right, you gotta put this one away for ten as you said, nobody wants to do that. Is that, are people gonna copying you or or are they still stuck in their ways? Two things? I definitely have seen a return to the larger barrels, which I love. I feel like I enjoy a lot more wines of my peers than I did ten years ago. So I love that. I don't think of it as competition. I think there's so little Kenty Clasico really in the grand scheme of things that there's a market for all of us, but I do I don't like wines that don't express the place because I've made wines in places like that. And I think that we're in a place that's too expensive to make wines like that. We need to make wines that express where they come from. And every introduction of new technology, new techniques often strip away a layer of that. Whether my peers agree with me, I don't really think about it too much. I want them to make the wines that they wanna drink and they wanna sell. I think that's the key to being a good salesperson and is make the wine you wanna drink and and everything should fall in behind that. Okay. I mean, just a final question about, you know, we talked about Bordeaux being incredibly famous, do you think the Bordeauxification of Canticlassico historically will be seen as an incredibly big mistake or just simply one step in Canticlassico's progression to a brighter future? Oh, that's a great question. In a lot of senses, I think it was a necessary up for quality to go to kind of clean up things in Italian winemaking, but, it came at the sacrifice of identity. So I don't see it as necessary step, probably a necessary step in a lot of ways. But I hope that and there are positive signs that we are moving in the right direction as a region of Kenticlassico, but in Italy as whole, I just hope that indigenous varieties are not lost and that in other parts of Italy, there are more people who make the retro marcha, of their region and turn back to simplicity and enjoyment of that great variety. Cool. Michael Schmeltzer of the Monte Buenardi, why it's been a pleasure to talk to you today on the Italian wine podcast in here. Some of you are very passionate but quietly expressed views on Sanjay and on the region as a whole. I think for me, you're a real beacon in Italian wine because your range from the less expensive wine to the top are all incredibly drinkable and are so different really come through. And if I was a student of wine, this would be my first stop for Sanjay Vaisse. Thank you very much, Monty. It's always a pleasure. I wish you a pleasure to see you. Thanks, Fine. 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