Ep. 242 Ginevra Venerosi Pesciolini (Tenuta di Ghizzano) on organic viticulture and Sangiovese

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This podcast is brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey. Native Grape Odyssey is an educational project financed by the European Union to promote European wine in Canada, Japan, and Russia. And joy. It's from Europe. Hello. This is the Italian morning for Caso b Montewood. My guest today is Genevavenorosi Peciolini. Yes. From the Tonuti Guetzano, which is in the province of Pisa. In Tuscany. Welcome. Thank you, Monty. Give us a little bit about the history of this takes. It's very ancient, isn't it? You have some very old buildings and towers and things Two. On your property. Yeah. We arrived there in the late fourteenth century, and at first was only, you know, to defend ourselves from the enemies. From the from the Spanish invaders across across the across the Tarian sea? From us their Tusgun cities, and we built a tower. And then in the following century, we built the house attached to the tower, and then we started our agriculture activity. For just stages, Nick. It's on. How many I think is it? Still is three hundred hectares. How much of that is vineyard? Only twenty hectares. And the rest is what cereal crops and olive oil? Olive grows. Interactors, and then cereals crop for a hundred hectares in the flat part of the estate, and then still a lot of woods. So biodiversity is there. Now you you started working organic in about two thousand and three. Yeah. And then you became certified organic. Yeah. And now you're one of these weirdy, beardy, crazy Aisies who are biodynamic. Yes. So tell us a little bit about why you decided to go an organic first of all? When I arrived there, and I have had to learn everything because my education was completely another one. I was graduated in foreign languages and literature. So I really had to learn what agriculture was from the field. And so, I inherited a way of doing which was very conventional because, you know, in the seventies, everything change in Tuscany, and we had to use tractors and the vines were replanted following the dimension of the tractors, and we had to produce a lot. Otherwise, we couldn't sell enough, but the quality was down. So when my father decided to invest in the vineyard in the cellar to try to make a better wine was the nineteen eighty five, but still he was really behaving in a conventional way treating not only the vines, but all the soil of the estate, because the concept was eliminate everything was not There was a friend for the crop. Yeah. For the crop. And and, when I observed my land year after year, I understood that I had to spray something new every year to fight against another insect or another herbs, or, you know, the grass or whichever. So I was feeling bad and, spending lots of money. Yeah. Spending lots of money and not obtaining the, really, the good result. And I wanted to start to do something healthier for my soil. So I I started traveling around, Europe, visiting other vineyards, and, in understood that I could be successful in having some good crops, not using so many chemicals. So that was the first thing, and nobody wants to follow him because, you know, it was a risk. Racine is risky. Yeah. Yeah. I started from the vineyards. And then I demonstrated to my father and the other people who were working there that we could obtain some good crop maybe better, not using a lot of things, spending less money in other paradox. And, from that way, he let me do, you know, the real change, to behave in the same way in the whole estate, not only in the vines. So not only, I mean, you were convinced, but and you sensed the farming that you were doing was not the right one, but probably the key battle is just outlining is is is that inter family battle, isn't it? It's convincing another human that listen, we really cannot we cannot continue farming the way we are because we're gonna go bankrupt. We're spending lots of money on stuff that really doesn't work, and we can see that it doesn't work. Yeah. And that was a real fight. Did you delve yourself in any way at any stage. You must have thought maybe he's right. Maybe we just stick with what we've got and just keep our fingers crossed. Maybe it'll start working this conventional stuff these herbicides, maybe they're not so bad. Did you have that doubt in your way? I actually, I no. I didn't from the very beginning, but it's true that I started in two thousand and three, which was a very dry and hot, as you remember, maybe see season, and that was easier, especially against the fungus. So two thousand and four was again a good so, you know, with two good crops, I could go ahead. It's true that certain vintages are lost some crops. Two thousand and eight, two thousand and fourteen, in the recent, but in comparison to what is the result of the quality of the crop that you have, you have no doubt that there are seasons that, you cannot completely be clean of all risks, but you have more true and and good. And More you have more balanced grapes to you. They're easier to ferment. They are easier to ferment. Yeah. But a kind of relationship between pH, the acid strength of the wine, and total acidity levels, and sugar levels. And and what about extractability? Like getting those flavors, for example, out of the red wines that you make, the red the red wines, are they easier to extract act? You find that? Yeah. And with a shorter time staying on the skins, so it's also another thing. I mean, you have good fermentation, but then you can extract everything if you want in a shorter time and not risk to have over extracted wines, too heavy and not drinkable enough, as I would like to drink my wines in the different level structure, always eating food. Did your neighbors come to ask you? I mean, they would have obviously seen the changes in your estate. It's not like it's a tiny estate. Were they skeptical, were they negative, or did they call you up and say, hey, listen, can I come and have a very skeptical? They still are. Still. Yeah. But they are changing a lot. But it's also true that I'm quite in the small place where I am, but I'm surrounded by myself most of the. Oh, so you don't have a youth surrounded by forest and you're a little bit isolated. Yeah. Yeah. Then now from other hills, next hills, I I have people visiting and and trying to understand still very skepticism. You know, I'm that Even after all these years, but what about your importers and your distributors in various countries? Are they very happy with what you're doing or were they? We don't really care it. We're we just care about the price. We don't care if you're organic or biodynamic. How does that work? Things are changing, obviously, in these last ten years and have changed a lot. So people are more prepared, but at the beginning, and still some Russian, for example, they really did not know biodynamic was and and Japanese too. So but they're very curious and they're very open now. And, as soon as the wine is a good wine. So and that's also my philosophy. I mean, it's true that we risk also in our way of making of having certain lots, which are not perfect. And I decided not to bottle them. So not to in order to demonstrate that you can make good wine, out of, biodynamic practice and a way of behaving also in the cellar. And it may happen that certain fermentation or are not perfect, and I prefer not to bottle now. So not, you know, not to to promote the fact that biodynamic wines can smell bad, or it's true that you should leave them a little bit longer time in the glass and in the box all. Yeah. Let's take a little bit of the years. To come around, don't they? But that's probably probably to do with deeper rooting and having, the the physiological changes that the vines that the plants undergo in terms of, in terms of plant expression, they're a little bit smaller the the leaf is a little bit smaller, a little bit tougher. The grapes are a little bit smaller, the tannins are probably a little bit more robust. Yeah. And then when the vine is is getting older, you know, the the truth is coming out. And it will live longer as well and ideally. So let's just go through some of the wines that you made. What are your what are the names of your red wines? Iguidzano is my bistro on pizza wine. So how say that again? El Gizano. Okay. The the Gizano. Okay. The Gizano. So that's your everyday sort of while Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No wood aging. So only stainless steel and cement tanks for one year and then bought and should be, you know, a very fresh fruity and easy drinking, but where That's the that's the cash flow why we call that? Okay. Yeah. Get it in the wiring. Get it out of the door and place some of those bills. Okay. So and the next one? It's Vinirozo. Right. It's my, let's say, historical wife. First vintage was nineteen eighty five, and now my current vintage isn't is two thousand and fifteen, so I'm celebrating the thirtieth harvest. So that's Jovese, seventy percent, and thirty percent, still Cabernet sauvignon. SanJOVese here is coming from my oldest vines, whereas for Ilizana, which is ninety five percent San Jose, my grapes are coming from seven to fifteen years old vines. Okay. So Next? Next is Namro. Namro is my, task and pomerol because Okay. So that's spelled n a m b r o t, Nambrot. Nambro. Nambro? Because either Venerroz or Nambroz are two family names, first names. Like, my name is Ginebra. So just to give reason to to a long long tradition of a family in that area. And number is Melo cabernet franc and Petiver dough. So trying to demonstrate that if certain grapes, they find their place, they IPen well. They express more of the territory than the varietal characteristics. So, nah, this guy, Namro, I've got a note here lived during Charles the Great area. Yeah. So that's what a thousand years ago. I'm not Shauna Maine. It's eight hundred. Carla Manuel. So it is Shawna Maine. So it is Shawna Maine. So it's Shawna Maine, like, the emperor first emperor of Europe, basically. And he was definitely a big fan of Tuscalo mines. I can tell you that. Not a lot of people know that. Yeah. He's the first he was the first member of the family, so back to the to the eight hundred. What to your family? Yeah. So you're related to Charlemagne. Oh, you are? Wow. You know what? I'm so sorry we didn't put the red carpet up. We. That's terrible. I come from Britain where we have a royal family. I just feel awful. Oh, no. But I was on such a high. This biodynamic talk and all this sort of stuff, and now it's just shattered. Yeah. Probably. They ate it know if they would agree, better probably they they will. Okay. Any more red wines? There's a new project of a wine, a seventeen vintage, but it's not ready yet. And is would be can and blend still. Sangevese a hundred percent from the very old vines. Okay. And what type of soil are they on these old Sangevese vines? They are, limestone and a lot of fossils because the whole area was covered by the sea in the Piyosini era. So a lot of childcare, there's a lot of minerality to the our sangiovese. How old are those vines? These are thirty five years old. And is it all the grape variety stories all? It's a mix of, old variety that I found and I reproduced in then a clone that I I I stole from Montalcino. Okay. Well, that you didn't hear that, guys. That does she doesn't mean that she literally stole it, that she walked in with her Batman Capon and looked of the night and start taking cuttings. But it's, yeah, let's let's leave that one there. Okay. Now, do you make a a Vincanto? I make a passito. It was a Vincanto. I want it to be free in having a wine that I like best than the vincento. So same way, similar way of, making because it's Malazilla, Caribbean, Colombana grapes, has the bunches are hanged in a room naturally aired, and they stay there for three months. And then So they shrivel a little bit. Yeah. Sugar concentrate. They're fresh for men. Yeah. A hundred and ten residual sugar and, they ferment then in, old barrels for one year only, and then six months in the stainless steel, and then barfled now on selling the two thousand and sixteen. And the name is Sanja Senermano, San Germano, because it was the patron saint of Guizano. Really? And so before it was, Vincent, I left the name. What do you drink Vincent with? Oh, with Capuchini, usually, Which are crunchy biscuits? Crunchy biscuits. And you can dip them in the vincennes if you want to. Yes. A little bit nutty. The biscuits aren't they? A couple of machine. Yeah. Yeah. With nuts. And then, Crostata. So that's, Chantas. And then meat seasoned cheese. I mean, not not very very old. Medium aged cheese. Not really not really spicy one. So you're talking like sheep's cheese like pecorino? Picorino cheese. Yeah. Not fresh, but not aged. Yeah. So not too of cheesy stinky. Yeah. Just come out of the animal, kind of cheesy, cheesy stinky because it's had a bit of age, cheesy. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. During that, make a good smellier, describing the food like that. Yes. I know this. Yeah. Okay. Alrighty. So I we've kind of, I think we've covered all the bases, haven't we? There's a Bianco too. Oh, let's do that then. Mhmm. So that's traditional local varieties? Yes. Only stainless steel, but three days on the skins, and then three months on the lead. So you're being you're being a little bit of a naturalista there as well as an organic environment, Easter? Yeah. A little bit. But you're not going Yeah. I'm not not I'm not going to the orange. Wine, but, I like to extract more character from the grapes, bianco, and but it's an easy drink in bianco. It's a ligizano bianco. So you could introduce it honestly, but it is I imagine it does have the texture for food as well. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. So what do you drink that with? That is with, all, you know, aperitivo in Tuscany, with the crostini, and So that will be toasted bread with, like, liver patty on the top? Yeah. Yeah. Mainly, but then any pasta with vegetables or pomodoro or first courses. Do you are you more of a vegetarian than a carnivore then? Me Yes. Or gain or gain? Are you a total vegetarian? No. So, what for you is the most important thing about Viator? No. It's the most important idea or thing that you do. And what do you think is the effect that it has on the wine, can you taste an effect or see an effect in the vineyards using that technique? Yeah. The most important thing is that it helped me to see my land, to look, to observe, and so to behave knowing what you're doing. The effect you're having? Yeah. I understand the reaction. So, as soon as I understood that my vines were, reacting positively to to what I was doing, the soil mainly because obviously that is a number one mission in biodynamic behavior is trying to rebuild and build a healthy soil, from the roots of my vines. In the wines, it's having a brighter fruit or light, which is To more intense, but not heavier. Yeah. More persistent, more precise, but not heavy. Even though there are alcohol is thirteen point five. You don't perceive it when you drink it, but and then it's the good, compartment with food. So Yes. We'll save it here. Yeah. How far are from Pisa than Pisa City? Pisa City is forty forty five kilometers. Okay. So it's a south. Yeah. So if you're in Pisa, it's a that's a short drive. It's a quite a nice drive down the coast, isn't it? Yeah. The road's a bit bumpy, but it's a nice little drive. Yeah. Cheers. And, so are in the Pisa area, this really is a great estate to visit. It's really beautiful. It's kind of you do feel like you're going back into the middle ages of it, but it's and I mean that in a really good way, in a really complimentary way, you know, I've been to your estate. I loved your estate, thank you. You have to come back. Yeah. And, when it was organic, so I'd love to see what it's like, when it's, when it's bought out. Just one other thing about pizza, I often get the train to pizza, and I often I'm often helping confused tourists who are trying to work out how Italian train tickets work because they're so you can get on a train a ticket, but if you haven't punched your ticket in before you go on the train, you get a fine. Yes. You get a molta. So, forever explaining, like, were you from Canada? So I said, right. This is what you need to do, and, I said, when we get all the train tickets sorted out, and the train chokes off and everyone's really happy that they're not gonna get and thrown in jail. I see where are you guys going? And they say, oh, we're gonna go to Pisa. Oh, that's okay. So you're actually the city itself. Yeah. Yeah. What are you gonna go and see? Wow. You know, we're gonna go and see that. The leaning of Taraapason, I would say, I didn't you hear it here? What happened? And they're looking me like? No. They fixed it. Anyway, I'm really sorry about that. I just that's it. I just that's It's true. But it's true. They do fix. They do fix it. That is my very infantile an extraordinary, expensive education. As you can see, it was totally useless, had no effect on me at all in terms of my mental, my emotional development. Anyway, I wanna say thanks to my guest today, in the province of Pisa on the Tuscan coast. It's a beautiful, beautiful estate. It's now by the name. Not that that really should count for anything. It's if you go there, you should go there because it's a beautiful state, and it's making wonderful work. Thanks for having me going. Thanks. You want to. Thank you. Thanks, love you. Can I become your PRH reckon? Would love to. I'm either right demographic for that, you know, sort of slightly graying, middle aged, you know, rather sort of, cynical Brit. You know, is that is that maybe maybe I need to be a little bit more joyful, or Yeah. I need it. Yeah. You need to probably smoke my code double, or are you just impeccably dressed? I look like a tramp in life. I don't like I slept outside the studio on the street. Get over the whole night. Anyway. Alright. I wanna say thanks very much, Jennifer. You're you're a superstar. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This podcast has been brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey, discovering the true essence of high quality wine from Europe. Find out more on Native Grape Odyssey dot e u. Enjoy. It's from Europe. Follow Italian Line Podcast on Facebook and Instagram.