Ep. 410 Ned Goodwin MW

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me, Montewallin. My guest today is Ned Goodwin master of wine. Welcome. Thank you, Marty. Where are you speaking, to us from? Are you you on Bondi Beach or something near Sydney? Well, I'm not quite on Bondi Beach, but I would I'm out of the surf as about as of about forty minutes ago, and I'm speaking to you from my apartment, which was which is a about two hundred and fifty meters up the hill from the sand. Okay. So what is what is bondi beach like at this time of the year? We're we're in, what are we in, we're in mid to late September? Well, Sydney is already unseasonably warm. So it's it's pretty hectic. It's busy. Lots of Italians. Are you are you a surfer dude as well or not? Or are you just, like, walking up? I am. I no. No. I've surfed I've surfed all my life. So I surf every day. As a matter of discipline, even if the waves aren't particularly good and they're not particularly good at the moment. I mean, it's beautiful. It's it's offshore winds and, and very blue, and the the water is turquoise clear, but not many waves at the three days ago there were waves, the last few days there have been no waves. And I guess the water's relatively warm. Is it? Or Well, I mean, Sydney's side is think nineteen degrees and the water is cold. That's what it is about now. But I mean, mid summer, it heats up to about twenty four. So I thought I was relatively speaking, nineteen compared to twenty four is a bit chilly, but for a European, it's well, when I say European for certain Europeans, particularly in the north or North Americans, ninety degrees Celsius. It's not particularly cold at all. So how about, we're doing this interview during the COVID, pandemic? What are what are the COVID, or anti COVID measures like in, in your part of Australia? Well, when I say my part of Australia, I'll just bring Melbourne into play even though it's a fourteen hour or twelve hour drive away. They're coming out of, I think, what were the most stringent, COVID restrictions on the planet around about now. I think next week, things are fine are finally going to free up from, level four. But, Sydney has been far more fortunate. We've had restaurants and bars and beaches and public recreational areas open for my god, Monnie. I everything is such a blur in this in this era. I can remember what I I I do, but I can't particularly place when the the major events, like when Bondi beach opened, for example, when they were, but I think it was back in April May that Bondi was closed. And then from about June, we were been open. And subsequent to that, we sort of had ten person maximum restrictions in bars and restaurants, which obviously wasn't particularly financially viable for many places, particularly in Australia where labor costs are very high. But subsequent to that, we're now at gatherings of a hundred. So things are, you know, in in the grand scheme of things, things are relatively lenient, New South Wales, which is the state that Sydney is in. Has no longer any, new COVID cases. So things are on the up, but who knows? Things could obviously change on a whim. Now you're a you're a master at wine, and you're one of the few masters of wine in Asia. And the first in Japan, how is it that you have an Australian accent, and you have this strong link with Japan? And you were born in London as well, weren't you? So Yeah. I was born in London, but aside from the convenience of a European passport. I it's it's not, really part of my my gestalt, I suppose. I I I was brought up in Bondi. And, subsequent to that, I I spent an exchange student year, from the age of fifteen to sixteen in rural mountainous Japan, which really became the platform for things Japanese related thereafter. So after education in in Paris among other places. I, I was offered a job to go back to Japan, and I did, and I thought it would be this was in the early two thousands. And I thought that job, which was buying wine for a very large restaurant auditorium to the tune of around sixty five restaurants throughout Japan, but mostly Tokyo Centric. I thought I would stay for around a year or two. And lo and behold, I ended up staying for fourteen years. So that's how that fitted in. But I I had a I had a pass for the Place prior. So things, Japanese, lingually culturally, etcetera, weren't completely foreign to me as they are all would be to many. So that's how we all sort of fitted in. And then after fourteen years, I wanted to bring, my children and family back to Australia. I suppose I miss blue sky and nature and clear water and so forth. And so we did, and that was So, well, six years ago come November, so verging on six years ago now. But why Japan? Why why not only you mentioned Europe, but why did you choose to get a job in Japan? I mean, did you speak Japanese before you went there? Or I did. I spoke I spoke pretty good Japanese after firstly my my year with sorry. I I should have extrapolated a bit more that exchange student year that saw me in rural mountainous Japan also saw me living with a Japanese family and going to high school there. When I saw high school, I wasn't going to any sort of a international school. I was going to the local high school. So that, it was a sort of sync and swim type dynamic, which allowed me, I suppose, to discover this sort of in a reservoir of discipline that I never knew I had. And I've drawn on that across many other challenges, including the master of wine, but it was during that year that I learned competent Japanese and then for many years thereafter, I was working as a Japanese speaking tour guide from Sydney to Paris, to not only make money to put myself through my studies, but also to continue with my Japanese studies and and regular practice. So by the time I went there in the in two thousand and two, I was coming from New York at the time. I'd been a simulator at a place called Veritas there, and I was offered a job in Japan. So I was curious a to go back, but also quite eager to venture back into, you know, the the cultural and lingual studies of of things Japanese, but I did have I did have good Japanese prior to going. Yes. So, your career I mean, how did your career as a familiar? Where did that start initially? That's started in Paris. So I was studying art history at university there, and I was on a scholarship, but, that paid for my studies, but not my rent and food, obviously. So I worked in various wine bars and I suppose the wine bar that would strike a chord with you in particular being English was, with Tim Johnson. And I worked a couple of shifts at Willy's as well. So that is where that started. I don't know if you could really call me a sommelier prior to that. I'd had some wine retail, excuse me, experience in Sydney, but, that at least was my first sort of forage in to wine bars, restaurants, etcetera. And I left Paris following a woman at the time to go to New York. And it was really in New York that I started working more extensively in finer dining and, made sort of made my way way across a number of restaurants, went across country to Los Angeles simply because I wanted to drive across country and I thought coming from Sydney, surf and sun, and I ended up staying in LA for almost two years. And it was there in fact that I took on my first official, Sommelier Come wine directorship at a restaurant called Michaels in Santa Monica. And, after Michaels, I went back to New York driving a different route this time across country and succeeded in, acquiring a job at a place called Veritas. Which in its day, I suppose was purportedly the finest wine listed restaurant on the planet. And that sounds like hyperbole, particularly now, but, thinking back, to that wine list, I've certainly seen nothing since that that that comes close. So that is where I sort of reached the zenith of the Sommelier world, I suppose. And I was wondering what to do after that. I certainly wanted to somehow liberate myself from hospitality, not a particularly lucrative, nor healthy, career. And when I was offered this role in Japan, while it was in and around restaurants, I wasn't on the floor. And it also offered me a more of an international scope in terms of buying opportunities, in Italy, Provine, on Premier, grandeur burgonia, etcetera, was sort of regular jaunce of mine, and, that that was that was not only an interesting job that, saw me in a in a buying educational role, but it was also a job that allowed me to extricate myself from hospitality defined as being a sommelier on a restaurant floor. Which was my goal after, I don't know, almost ten years of doing it. It's interesting that you've got your RT side and your numbers side. I mean, the business, so we'll probably get on to a little bit more of that in back in detail. And then you've got that that sort of, to both sides of your brain are working if you if you wanna put it like that? Yeah. Interesting. I I would certainly say my my ID side is probably the more intuitive and the one that I naturally lean toward, the number side is something that I have to, is sort of, you know, cognitively pay attention to and learn all the time because it's not a natural strength nor really a natural interest of mine. So I've been the fact that you've gotta know it. Okay. So, you carry on with your your story. What was the next step then? Oh, well, so, yeah, New York to to to to Tokyo. And then close to fourteen years in Tokyo and then and then back to Sydney. So that's really that that sums it up and subsequent to that. I'm I'm back back in the hearth or back at the hearth. I'm living almost directly across the road from the apartment that I grew up in as a kid, which was not strategic. It's just the way things have played out. So let's talk about Italian wine. What, are your particular favorite regions or styles Yeah. Look, I I really like the Pierremont, and I like more traditional producers. Although, you know, the the, the discussion about the, you know, the sort of barak history modern producers and those who are traditional, I think, is a bit a bit archaic. Now things have, things have shifted from the extremes, and there are a lot of people, sort of plying their wares on a very fine line of, of diplomacy somewhere on either side. Well, I would never have had you down as a classicist. I would have thought, you know, I just thought you were just gonna the the kind of you know, the somme, the kind of modern wines. And, it's great to hear that you're you're you're you're just in the other camp. As I stare across, my room at an empty bottle of Beyondy Sandy Resver, two thousand and twelve. But, Tuscany as beautiful as it is. I I suppose I should be, you know, flying the flag, but it's it's not necessarily one of my favorite regions for wine. Certainly, the PMon. And shout out you into a secret. What was that, sir? Guess where I am. You tell me Montelchino, I know. Alright. In this, it's telling the same, memory like a bloody pomoto, which I'm just playing zone to let you know memory at all. Sorry. Well, you're you're no different to me in this and particularly in this climate guard. It's, it's conducive to, to having a brain like a sieve. And, and without naming producers, I also like very much Campania. I think Alianneko is a fantastic grape. And, I also like the white grape varieties from down that way, particularly Fiana, but, a strong affection for Greco. And to some extent, simply because I love Naples, and, I've got memories that are very, are very foreign and and nostalgic, I suppose, that, see see me, walking out of, some cove near Portilippo bare bare footed, no shirt, and, sort of ambling up to some little joint and sitting down. And as I put my shirt on ordering a flask of Falangina and necking the thing, so I I like that that that, neck of the woods and other great varieties and are very fond of that I would sort of place in my Italian, top four or five, Vadicchio from the Marquay, I think, is a is a is a wonderful grape. For all sorts of reasons, but largely because of its sheer, drinkability. Yeah. And it's ageable. And other priced as well, I think, still, you know, it's some a a real of a bargain. And I think also it it challenges the notion or the def the the the the the the classic definition, the master of wine, and w set definition of, you know, what constitutes a fine wine. I mean, it is age able to an extent, but I I think in this day and age, particularly with, organic, biodynamic, and natural, the idiom of natural wine, becoming so influential, is a fine wine necessarily a wine that has the constitution to age, for a long time. And, I don't know. It's a rhetorical question, I suppose, but it's certainly one to think about because Vidicchio does have the capacity to age, but I like it and it's sort of jubilant youth, as I do, Greco and Fiano. And I the other great variety, I suppose I left out of my top five, white varieties anyway, indigenous Italians would be, Clinton Vermentino, and, fan perhaps more of more of the pigato iteration of Ermitina that I am of the more more oily, powerful, sardinian expressions, but, you know, a great grape as well. Mhmm. And, any other grapes I wrote about some reds some of your red favorite red red varieties? Well, I, well, aside aside from Naviolo, and I'll stick in the PMot for a while, but I've become rather, fond of granulino. It's it's delicious. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, I like it. I like I like I like the, I saw it. I I like the the juxtaposition between it's sort of light, red fruited shade, and then these varrocious tannins. It's interesting. It's sort of like, you know, the chiaroscuro of, of, you know, perceivably easy going grapes that actually have a rather serious grunt to them. Other than that, I I like Rifosco, probably because of its gullibility and that savory peppery edge, yeah, I like Canon now, I suppose, because well, maybe I'm I'm sort of translating my affection for Southern Ron, into an affection for Canal. But now I I I I do do like it. And, you know, I mean, I should be saying San Giovanni shouldn't I? Of course, I I I like San Giovanni. And I'm sure I've left oh, well, what am I what what what else? How can I I've already said Ali Aarnaca, and the companion things? Piet de Roso is nice too. And one's down there, probably for the same reason that Rifosco is nice when one is up in Frulli. And, I've got an affection for Cezonese because I just love the notion of drinking an indigenous local variety from the Roman hills while in Rome. That's a good one. Yeah. But it's a very simple, simple wine for the most part. And that's absolutely fine. If you were gonna live in Italy and you wouldn't you could not live on the coast, you had to live in a a landlocked area or somewhere in the middle of where would you where would you go? Oh, that's good. That's a tough question. I would probably go to Umbria. Although I didn't mention segmentino, so you're probably wondering or or Gueketa, you're probably wondering why why I mentioned that, but I like it because it's, a sort of more adventurous rustic version of of of Tuscany. The varieties are are good. It's not too far away from the coast, and it's it and and it's encroaching. Well, I suppose by definition, it is already in the south, certainly the beginning of the south. So, I like, the the the south because I like the warmth and the sunshine and olive oil rather than butter and cream and so forth. But and I suppose, Umbria has the advantage of, you know, I already said not being too far from the coast, but not being too far from in Tuscany and, there's a sort of a sort of a level of sophisticated affluence rather than, you know, the the the the visceral carnal pleasures of Naples, which I love, but I'm not allowed to be on the coast. Plus, I don't like in excess of sixty percent unemployment in the camorra. So, it's easy to go down there and think how great it would be to live there, but living there I'm sure in reality would be a very story. So we talk about let's talk about business. So you you made the move from the hospitality industry to, a corporate job purchasing wine for a restaurant group in Japan. How how did that come about? Was that through the master of wine, or was that just through your own, your own? No. That was because the ma the master of wine, in fact, was, well, that took place in terms of my my applying to be taken on by the Institute and then the the trials and tribulations of studying and driving the whole thing on my own. That was all in Japan. So that was after the job offer. The job offer came simply because I ran into the Japanese CEO of this, you know, vast restaurant group in, New York at a wine tasting, and we struck up conversation. And I was speaking in Japanese and obviously working at Veritas at the time. So he was impressed by these credentials, and he asked me if I wanted to go back to Japan. And I did leave a bit out of the story because otherwise the story just goes on and on, but what ended up happening, and it was really the catalyst for leaving Theritas when I did, although his job offer was already on the table. I ended up broke breaking my a compound fracturing my wrist I fell off a, I fell off a high backed computer roll away chair, which is obviously a stupid chair to stand up on in the first place, but I was cooking toast under what the Americans call a broiler, which is, their term for the grill in an oven. And I forgot that the toast was there. It burnt and set the smoke detector on the roof of this loft in Brooklyn that I was living in at the time wailing. And so spontaneously, I grabbed this chair that I was sitting on, stood on it and fell from around, I don't know, what's nine foot. That's what I was told by Americans. It would have been, so in a couple of years, I suppose. Yeah, fractured my wrist, and then I had stabilizer bars and pins in my in my forearm through to my hand, which meant that I could no longer work as a sommelier, which also meant that this guy's job offer was far more attractive than it would have been otherwise. So I took a bit of time in between my leaving Veritas and my going to Tokyo to take on the job. I went to and before September eleven because otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed to get on a plane with this walking weapon embedded into my, into my, into my bones. These pins and, and, stabilizer bar, so to speak, I ended up going to Frioli, and then down to Naples spent a couple of weeks with a friend's family down there. And then my father, friend, and I, rented a house in the longer dock without electricity powered by a generator, right near forger and stayed there for almost five months. At which point, my arm had healed. I went back to New York, September eleven, and happened while I was in the south of France. And I retrieved my stuff and went to Tokyo and finally after this time that this gentleman had kindly allowed me to take. I took on the role of wine director for a company called Global Dining. And what was the next step? Well, I I I thought a couple of years as I mentioned earlier. And then fourteen years later, I finally came here, but I, the role was good because I, initially, it was a little frustrating. I didn't quite understand the nature of it, because it was rather different in reality to what it seemed to be on paper, given the sheer number of restaurants. I was effectively in charge of, accredited sommeliers with the Japan Sommeliers Association, which for those of you who don't know, has more accredited. Well, actually Japan per se has more accredited to Sommeliers than any other country in the world, but for Italy, for what that's worth. But I was in charge of, similiates who were well versed and then sort of wine waiters or bringers and takers and restaurant managers who barely knew the the difference between a white and red wine on the other hand in the more casualties of this network of sixty five restaurants. So it was a lot of, there was a, a variable, level of the sort of education that needed to be done. Restaurant pending. And after a while, I realized that my chief role, even though on my business card, which the Japanese love to doll out to all in Sunday, it's very important to their culture. It said corporate wine director, I realized that my real, well, chief responsibility anyways aside from making sure that I was buying wine that was making that company money, was to educate this legion of, of staff, some of whom were sommeliers and other others of whom were nineteen years old, fresh out of high school, making barely enough to to buy two beers in an hour and who had never tasted wine in their lives. So that was the role, and with that role came, you know, a a a lot of frustration, but also a great deal of joy and satisfaction to be weaning and I suppose nurturing this young brigade of new Japanese wine professionals. And, of course, that's not to say that everyone wanted to be a wine professional, but there were enough among that network of staff across that vast network of restaurants who I suppose found my way of, you know, I don't like the word educating, but talking about wine, infectious and effusive and went on to become now some of Japan's leading young wine professionals. So that alone was worth the fourteen years. And the company funded my master of wine studies. And given that I was obviously buying for such a a big group, the samples that I was receiving were, you know, fast and furious and pretty much In terms of the styles I was getting, they covered the world of wine that I needed to be, covering, tasting, and, educating myself on vis a vis my master of wine studies. So it all worked out rather rather well, really. And, I left I suppose, because as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to come back to Australia and a lifestyle here, but, it it it wasn't as if I was ready to jettison myself from Japan and come back to the, to to to a western culture. It it was with great. I suppose indecisiveness that I I left Japan. I I was unsure whether it was the right move at the time, but, at the at the same time, you know, fourteen years is a big chunk of one's life, and, I'm happy to be back. So was the creation of your, your label a sort of, which is, quote, which is good wine, was that part of your, quotes, rehabilitation of going back to Australia that you had that project to look after then? No. Not at all. It had it had nothing to do with. I just had a, a distributor down. And and that wine, by the way, is very, Nagoya in that area in and around Nagoya centric. In that, the distributor who takes care of that wine is based down there. He was a friend actually of Kenichiohashi, who, was the first, Japanese national master wine. And my mentee, I think Ken passed I don't know three years ago or something like that. But either way, it was Ken pre him becoming a master of wine who introduced me to this company who wanted sort of an irreverent, you know, an easygoing eminently drinkable. Relatively inexpensive, fizz, white, and red wine. And, I came up with the blend, and we worked together on that, but it's really only sold in that particular part of Japan. It's not sold across Japan. So it really had nothing to do with my my as a platform for my coming back here. Mhmm. So any any tips for people listening that are thinking of or you are already in the master of wine program? Oh, yes. Be disciplined. Even when you think, I mean, to state the bleeding obvious. But, I mean, the level of discipline required is, something that you've really, got it got got to drum up on your own. No one's going to spoon feed you. And even when you think you've done enough work, you probably haven't. And make sure you study every day. I mean, I was studying two hours every weekday and then four hours, each day of a weekend. And, obviously, that's all. Highly personal, but I just found that that discipline, and those hours intrinsic to my sense of having discipline, very, very important in in in terms of getting getting through it. And of course, there are many other tips I could provide, but that that discipline is is very important. It's like going to the gym or, you know, swimming two k's or whatever you do or, you know, running ten k's a day. I I don't know. People have their own their own schtick. But, the MW is is along those lines. You've just gotta do it, and you need to do it every day. I mean, as as your role as a as a mentor, not just for your to your the people that you work with, but for students that some of them, you maybe you've never met before, Obviously, this idea of discipline is one thing. What other tips would you give? Yeah. Look, I've been fortunate enough to know to have known and and to know most of my, if not all of my mentees, but, it's it's important to be highly organized as well. I mean, coming from a Sommelier background, I created notebooks, in and around, great varieties that I thought had, physiological and or stylistic synergies. For example, off the topic of things Italian for a moment, but, I've, you know, something like hunter valley semillon, which is this idiosyncratic wine that virtually nobody drinks even here in Australia or be it. It's perceived or considered to be this inimitable, quintessential Australian white wine. And when it's young, it's like battery acid. It has very little, little personality. The alcohol sort of defies external, perceptions of Australia and that the alcohol is traditionally somewhere in the vicinity of ten and a half to eleven and a half percent, and and and these wines see no oak yet after you know, around eight years, miraculously, they sort of, transform themselves into, these incredibly complex long lived wines that then after about fifteen years, become quite profound. And so I took a a wine like that. And in my in my world of creating these stylistic synergies, particularly hunter Valley when it's young or hunter Valley semillon when it's young, it resembles muscadet at least as far as anyone in the world resembles muscadet. I suppose you could argue that fairly anodyne Treviano could resemble muscadet as well, but not quite in that muscadet's, alcohol level is almost identical to hunter semillon. The only complexity in its youth that it has is usually lees derived as is Hunter Simio. There's no oak or at least for the most part on idler styles. And, and they're and they're high acid wines, even though semi on as a grape physiologically. It's not a particularly high acid, great variety. The way it's managed in the hunter, meaning picked early, to mitigate, the, the threat of early to midsummer rains, means that it is high acid. So you know, there are these. The other obvious one would be, Naviolo and Pinot noir and, to some extent, Grenash, particularly when it's, not from a modernist, producer who's using too much oak over over extracting, and particularly Grenash along the lines of Shadow Reyes, which, of course, I would love to drink more than I can, particularly with a bit of age. So there are these sort of, you know, holy triumblets of, of varieties like those three that have, they have many similarities. And the reason I came up with these notebooks covering all of these, possible synergies that I could is simply to facilitate my prowess when it came to blind tasting. And then if I thought I knew what something was, but I was unsure, and I rather than sit on the fence, I was able to get to what it was through the process of elimination. In other words, eliminating what it wasn't, based on my creating these highly personalized albeit very useful books dedicated to these, what I call, these stylistic synergies across the world of grapes. So, I mean, whether that's the right way or wrong way, I don't know. But what I'm trying to say is that I was pretty organized at least in terms of my my world of organization. And, I'm sure that other people would approach it in a different way, but it's important to, you know, do the work and the I mentioned discipline sure, but, but highly organized in terms of what is going to work for you and working it out because again, no one is going to tell you, how to do it. People can only give you hints and, and and suggest suggest, various passages through what is a, you know, a a minefield of of of of so called compulsory reading and, and articles and suggestions and, you know, and, and naysayers and, and overly optimistic, people as well. So it it it it it does require a great deal of organizational skill. Yeah. It's very interesting hearing you talking about getting giving yourself a strategy, and then when we look at when we just said about your professional career, your career has been a mix of of, serendipity and strategy. Well, you gotta you've got a fascinating story. Well, thank you, bossy. I like that. I'm gonna plagiarize that serendipity mel strategy. Yeah. You can't know what you do though. I mean, you know, you travel over the place you know, and and that the cultures that you've lived in, have obviously, informed your, your view and that you have a very global outlook, but you you're great on the minutiae of the detail of of what's going on. So, anybody who wants to study wine or the MW, you're a great person to, to get to know. That's for sure. And I also wanna say thank you for for being such a fantastic guest, you know, It's been entertaining, but, educational as well. I mean, I've learned a lot from what you've been saying today. And, I hope that one day we meet face to face. I mean, a real a real real pleasure. I hope you meet again and wishing you all the best over your way. Warm wishes so far. Thanks, Montee. Bye bye to you. And thanks, Lick. If you want to, you know, let me know. Okay? I I will do. Thanks, Matt. Bye bye to you. Bye, man. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Pod casts, Hemali FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment and publication costs. Until next time. Chichi. I mean, I think your technique needs a bit of, perfecting. Why? I don't know if you're gonna go side to side or or long to long, but, you know, you need to you need to speed it up a little bit, mate. Alright. Hold on. Bear with me. I'm just, sucking the cord back into the view. If you gotta if you gotta clean the loo or the shower, just you know, it's it's it's okay. Alrighty. We could we could do a show about home home improvement in the in the era of COVID. But if you wanna take some pictures of your vacuum cleaner, and so that's, you know, just do so. And then we can use them in the publicity. No. Not really. I was strategizing, finishing just on time, which is pretty much what I've done. So good.