Ep. 420 Michael Garner

Hi, Michael. How are you? Yeah. I'm pretty good, Lamar, to yourself. Yeah. I'm alright. Where are you? Where are you at the moment? I'm in my office, which is a well, in my garden at home. I a number of years ago, I decided to build an office here. So I I literally do work from home. Okay. So you are you which part of the UK are you in there at the moment? Sorry. Devon. Oh, you're in Devon. Yeah. That's where I live. And you drink cider from I'd I'd rather not with most of it actually, Monty. A lot of it is is so rustic. If it was if it was a wine, it would be condemned. You know? It's got sort of twigs and bits of beak in it still. It's really very unpleasant. So I don't do much cider on Yeah. It is a little bit neolithic down there, and I'm I'm joking. No. No. It's just you're actually, Patrick. You're pretty accurate. You're pretty on the ball there, Monty. It can be a bit mhmm. Alright. Should we start then? Ready to rock and roll? Yeah. Sure. Wanna leave a moment. Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian Mind Podcast. My name is I was gonna call myself Michael Garner. Well, you can pretend to be me, if you like. I don't think it'll get you very far, but you had that effect on me. That's a bit embarrassing, isn't it? Hello. This is the Italian wine. Tell me again. You've caught seeing Monty already. Yeah. It was. I was in the Brunoo vineyards this morning, and it was the beautiful light and wind and all the rest of it, seeing people people snipping grapes. Now the hard work begins, me, actually being able to get more than four words together out at the same time. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monte Olin. My guest today is Michael Ghana. Michael Welcome. Thank you. Good to be here. Mark, how would you describe yourself? I first met you, or came across you in book form when I bought your, the book that you wrote Tar and roses on Barolo, with Paul Merritt, all those years ago in the early nineteen nineties, published in nineteen ninety, in fact. Yeah. And we and I read that book because I was working in a shop at a time in London with a a chap called Chris Donaldson, who was studying for his master of wine, and he recommended that book. And he did pass his BMW, first time around And I think it was, yeah, which is certainly one of the first wine books I ever read. It was a great read. Really? Yeah. It was, honestly. Honestly, I've got I've got it in my I've got it on my desk. I feel really. Yeah. Hardback. And, you with a It's worth a lot of money apparently on whatever it's called on, Amazon or eBay or whatever. Well, that was the end of the podcast. Thanks very much, Michael. That's nice to speak to you. I was always Monty. Yeah. Anyway, you were that was how I came across you. So Why, why the fascination, with Pierre Monte, and also how did you get into wine in the first place? Cause you were apart from being a writer, you also, have a small wine merchant. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, not, you know, what, more of an agent sort of style broker. We just sell. The wine from a few wineries in the UK on an excellent basis. I simply thought it's more kind of brokerage agent time work than being a a a wine much to such. Although, What is the distinction? I'm not too sure. Yeah. I call myself a wine merchant. Why not? How did I get into the wine trade totally by accident, Monty? I was between between teaching jobs. I used to teach. And I'm working in a bar and wasn't really enjoying it. And via a friend I knew I got, what I thought at the time was gonna be a temporary job as a seller boy in odd bins. And, anyway, to cut a long story short, we, soon after that, I learned that my wife was pregnant. And, I thought I'd better start trying to be a bit more of a serious human being, and make sure that I could look after my wife and, the beginnings of a family. So I I need to stick at something. I stuck at wine. So that's how I got into the wine trade. Where where were you based time. Are you based in the UK? Yes. Yes. I was, I was in the the beautiful city of Bath, if you remember Bath. Yeah, yeah, beautiful, Roman city, well, with not Roman city, but has a Roman parts to it as you probably know. Really beautiful. I I just moved there. And, yeah, I was between teaching jobs and, this job came up in, in our bins as a seller boy. So, yeah, I went for it. I needed a job at the time. So I stuck with it and, you know, There you go. We've worked for Ob bins for a number of years, and, just kinda worked my way through the wine trade to where I am at the moment. Oh, my gosh. There's something about Ob bins, because we got we got an international audience. A lot of them won't won't know what odd bins, is or was. Oh, right. Fair enough. Okay. It was a sort of a cutting edge, wine, chain of wine shops in the United Kingdom, which, introduced many wines to the UK in terms of especially Australia and Californian wines and New Zealand wine. So very sort of avant garde as well as some of the classics. And do you so what was your role? Yeah. Yeah. I I got a, a job in a in a in a the bath or bin, bath branch of odd bins. Just shifting cases around the cellar. And as you rightly say, it was very much a, a cutting edge outfit at the time, bringing wines into the UK that no one had ever heard of. So it was a very exciting time in the trade because it was kind of breaking the mold before that, the wine trade was a very, very traditional and conservative business. To some extent, it still is as well. But Aud bins, I think, were the first people to sort of take a wholly new and a much more dynamic approach to to the wine business. And, I know at the time that it's sort of spawned that a lot of people have gone on to sort of bigger things in the wine trade. I think of perhaps, you know, Andrew Sean, maybe is the buying director for around who I know you know Andrew. Buying director for whatever they call. I can't remember the name of the company. Never mind, I'm sure it'll come to you or me or someone at some stage. And various other people as well who did, the the apprenticeship in the trade in odd bins. So shall we say? Bibendum. Bibendum. That's for underworks. So, yeah, a number of people. It was it was a a sort of proving ground for a number of people. Yeah. So at the moment, obviously, that was quite a long time ago. So you worked in that shop. You got the wine bug. How long did it take you to establish your own business in the wine trade? How many years did that take? Blind me. That probably took twenty years, to be before I actually have my own company, yes. But in the meantime, there was something much more important happening, in my life, which, you know, I I I'd fathered three sons by then, and, they were and remain the center of my world. So I kind of put, my own dreams on on a back burner, if you like, and just focused on making sure I could house clothe and feed my family. That was my first priority. So how did you do that, though? Well, by sort of working for larger companies who pay better salary Wine companies or other companies? No. Wine companies always within the wine trade. Yeah. Because it would have been perhaps folly to have tried to jump ship, you know, with the responsibilities that I had. If you're a younger member of the wine trade or sent you an email or knocked on your door, as I want to get into the wine trade, what's the best way of doing it? What would your answer be? Seeing is you stumbled in there by accident almost a little bit like me? Past, I guess. I I wouldn't No. It's not necessarily a someone came up to me. How do I get a start in the wine trade? I I'd probably suggest go and look for something else. Yeah. It's a great trade, but I think Now I I I can't answer that. I really can't. I wouldn't know how to advise someone because, you know, if you're talking about someone's kinda life and dreams, the last thing I wanna do is ruin them. Okay. Was gonna say, I would I would say go and get a job on a vineyard, learn how it's made first, and then get yourself a job in, I don't know, in an importer or a wine bar or a wine bar or something like that so you can actually taste wines from other. Yeah. Sure. Okay. I I can appreciate that. Monty, but that's not an opportunity that's open to everybody. Is it? I got I got a job sort of, you know, at the lowest level of the wine trade. And I I would say if someone can afford to, you know, do that being if if someone's in that unfortunate enough position to be able to do that, to be able to just, you know, dedicate their life to working in a vineyard and working their way through the wine trade. That that's wonderful then. That's probably the best way of doing it, but It's I don't think those are opportunities open to everybody. So there you go. Yeah. So were you what was your were you the for the companies that you work for? Were you, were you the buyer? Were you the negotiator? Were you, what what was your exact role in these wine companies? Oh, right. Yeah. A bit of everything. I got a a kind of lucky break. My lucky break was I think that was sort of in the I'm about I'm not sure how long I'd been in the wine trade, probably about four or five years, but I joined a company that was called Grisson Bluantal, which was the wine and spirits arm of the, forte empire, so the Rockco Forte. And at the time, within Grissant Bloom, there was a division called Italian wine agencies, which was headed up by a wonderful guy, a real character called Richard Hobson, a master of wine who sadly died rather young. He was at the time branching out and forming other divisions like French wine agencies and Hispanic wine agencies. And because by then, I'd already sort of started to focus on Italian wine, he brought me in and I started really running Italian wine agencies for him. And I suppose they were looking at kind of the mid eighties. So if you'd like me to continue with my sort of personal history in the trade, I worked for them for a number of years until, trust has Forte was sort of broken up and sold off to, its various divisions. I think the wine arm, which I left when the breakup took place went on to become Matthew Clark. If I'm not much mistaken, some other people went off to other companies as well. I then worked for a number of years who my my other great mentor in the wine trader, which is a guy called Renato Tristini who you may have heard about. Sadly, he died a few years ago as well. He gave me free rein to sort of do what I want, which is great fun. So I worked there for a couple of years, well, probably more, actually, three or four years until we were bought up by another company. I can't remember the name of them either. Well, I stayed for a few more years and then thought, stop this. I'm gonna do it on my own, you know. So, with my, my co author, Paul Merrath. We we but your responsibility is also going to, Italy, to, buy wine and to source wine to build relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Yes. The whole for the whole package, really, sort of sourcing and selling. Yeah. Very much so. I've always kinda felt that you need a a thorough grounding in the trade to be any good at it. So not only did was I buying and selling wine, I'm talking about it and drinking a bit, but I also taught for a number of years for the WSET. I used to teach diploma to people, on Italian wine. So I've always thought that they'll kind of to understand the trade properly, you've gotta become immersed in all aspects of the business. So, you know, I I suppose I been very lucky that I've kinda done every, you know, most most, most things, you know, I've made a bit of wine and stuff like that as well because, you know, you really need to get to the bottom a while you need to make get to know the grapes and the vineyards and the the people the whole story. I mean, do you think from those days then, and what's going on today? Do you think we're talking about the wine trade here, not consumers, but wine trade people in the United Kingdom which obviously is still a an important market. For for Italy. How do you see the level of knowledge, amongst the professional elite, in in the UK now compared to then? Was it a little bit more sort of fun and a little bit less precise in those days compared to now. Has the fun gone out of it? Certainly. The, I don't know about that. It's still, you know, you you're on a wine trade as well, Monty. You know what a, a fun trade it can still be, and and and is, not just can be. It was back in those days back sort of when I was kinda growing up in the wine tree, which I suppose is the nineteen eighties. Italy got incredibly short shrift. It was a butt of the and it was the joke error of the of the one trade. People just thought Italian wine was, you know, on a a lower level, and it was dismissed as you know, a commodity product that was bought and sold on price, and quality wasn't really part of the equation. And so the the people's understanding of Italian wine was at an all time low within the trade. So as I said, I think that the brit the British trade in particular always was fairly insular and conservative. That has broken down to some extent now, and and thank god for it. It certainly needed to. What changed? I mean, you know, I I totally agree with what you're saying. And in those days, I was a little bit after you, you know, this obsession with Bordeaux and also to burgundy, to to a certain extent, and, obviously, Italy, being a a behemoth. Got pretty short shrift, a, because it was maybe seen as inconsistent, but also lacking seriousness. You know, there weren't those Chateau tours and petruses that you could names that you could reel off from Italy, but that's changed, hasn't it? And how has in it? How is how have you seen that? Well, I I think those great names were always there. It's just that people were blinkard. As you say, they had an obsession with, with French wines. And I I think, you know, the gradual acceptance of, for example, Australian wine, made a big difference. People began if somewhat grudgingly to admit that, there were other there were people other than the French who could make good wine. And even back then in the seventies, there were great names in wine, and Piero Pan made his first crew in nineteen seventy one. His first crew, Swire Vaca Varrino. Eva, I remember one of the biggest memories of my wine life was in the early nineteen eighties. And it's what really turned me on to Italian wine. So you've got a scoop here monthly. I remember being in the sellers, not the current sales, but the old sellers, of Giovanni Contherma. Roberto's dad. I remember tasting ten year old Mont Fortino from the barrel. This was in the early eighties. I'm being blown away by how good it was. It was extraordinary. And, yeah, you know, you tried to tell some of the, you know, the wine establishment in a sort of the British wine trade establishment about some of these wines, and they just just dismissed you out of out of hand. So, you know, Italian wine, I'm I'm grateful for sort of giving me a crusade because I've always had a kind of an evangelical side to my nature, which the an Italian one. You like supporting the the it's kind of like the underdog, I think, rather than evangelical. You you have a you have a real sense of fairness. But You know, you aren't you are fair. You like the idea of fairness. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course, I do. But, I don't know. Yeah, if you if you see it that way, you're probably a, a better judge of that than I am, Monte, because, you know, I I always thought I had an evangelical. I've got problems. I don't But in in your view, it wasn't fair that these albeit good wines from, say, Bordeaux, were getting all the all the all the applause. And these as good, if not even better wines, for example, Piamante as you cited, were really being ignored. So but apart from your your indignation about that. That's very true. Very true. But it also showed you there were there were niches to explore, which is what you and your business partner then business partner did. By by publicizing. It wasn't your book on Barolo Tarum roses. It wasn't just a book about the region. It was basically a book about saying this is an exceptional region, and people should wake up. Because it's because it's not the only great region in in, Piamonte or in Italy. That was the message I certainly got from that, but when I read it, I mean, I was I was so into Bordeaux then. I'd I'd learned everything I had by living in Bordeaux and all the rest. It was very Bordeaux centric. And that book showed me, there is another, sorry, not just another side, but many, many other sides, to the wine industry. And, of course, you say the Australian, tsunami, and the the New Zealand arrival, the California, and all the rest of it. It suddenly became exciting in the nineteen nineties. Yeah. And and it what was exciting again, repeat, was was it was excitement of the old classics that had been ignored that they could then come to the Ford, as they hadn't done before. And you're a part of that? Yeah. That's that's those as may be. I think it's just really the the wine trade growing up, Monty, as much as anything else, you know, and becoming a little less insular. And becoming a little more open minded. Yeah. And it needs people to sort of With consumers as well. Oh, definitely. Definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because wine for as I don't every day drink for people in the UK is, is something over the last, just over the last couple of decades, isn't it? Really? The, you know, the normal guy in the street. When I was young, certainly, I I never drank wine at all, maybe once a year, and, you know, at Christmas, my father's birthday or something. I didn't know what wine was really until, you know, my, early twenties. Mhmm. So in terms of Italy, when, obviously, the changes that gone on over the last twenty of the these huge changes. What are your favorite areas or grape varieties or even wine styles now? You know, if if we could give you a free ticket to go across Italy, all expenses paid, you know, where would you be heading to and why? Personal preference, you mean. Are you asking me as a as a consumer rather than anything else there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The man in the street. Not a The man in the street. Okay. Well, my my current favorite area, and it's, it's great that even at my sort of venerable ill age, I can still sort of feel stirred as much. I feel stirred at the moment. It's certainly the wines of the Alto Adi Jay. I used to be involved commercially with the Alto Adi Jake in the mid eighties when I was working with Richard Hobson. And back then, the wines were kind of mainly bulk wines. A lot of red from from Skyava sent up to sort of Austria and Germany and everything was sort of, you know, pretty much a commodity product. And the way that region has turned itself around in less than thirty years, and is now clearly the most exciting region in Italy, Europe, and possibly the world for white wines, because I think that they're that good. So there, yeah, the the white ones of the out of Additure are just absolutely out this world these these days. I'm still a huge fan of Val Pollicello. I really good Val Pollicello for me is one of the most underrated red wines out there. And, you know, depending on the size of the check you gave me, I'd go and explore somewhere else as well. There are still do you know I've never been to Sardonia? I'd love to go to Saudi. But I've been to all the other wine producing regions, I think. And They all have something there, Monty. You know it yourself that they've each region has, you know, a a a tiny sort of area making brilliant wines from some unheard of great variety. And that's the beauty of Italy, you can still go over there and discover that sort of thing. And these days, thankfully, there's a a receptive enough audience out there to, enable you to indulge yourself and, and also, you know, allow them to sort of access to, some of Italy's great, illogical treasures. And it is still a treasured test, and it's still only partly, partly explored. Am I mixing my metaphors there, but, there you go. What are the, do you see any sort of key trends in Italian wine? Is it is, in terms of either in terms of winemaking or the rise of the, previously unheard of native Italian grape varieties? What is what is what is exciting right now? Going back to that sort of earlier point about, you know, what what's changed. I I think what I have noticed is that the, Italians are perhaps making winds more for the sheer pleasure of making it rather than making it for someone else if you like. They are looking at their own great varieties, their own methods I'm thinking, well, yeah, using these methods, we can get the most out of what we have, the raw materials that we have. They've reevaluated those raw materials and are now getting the best results out of them, which they didn't for a long time, you know, to be successful, you have to make chardonnay or Cabnay or something or or Sarah. And finally, you know, people woke up to the idea that Neebiola and Sanjay Vaisie were great, great varieties, as they are. There's no question of it. But you've noticed as as as I have, Monte, the the the real, very interesting aspect of Italian wines at the moment. I think is is is in white wines. Angelo Gaya said about ten years ago, didn't he? That the future of Italian wine was white. And people are still quite shocked by that. But, you know, he was, he's quite a visionary angel of Gires, and I think there's a lot of truth in that. Are there any, lesser known grape varieties, that you think are waiting to be discovered still by the by the wine trade, not necessarily in in the UK, but in general. Any any hidden gems that you every time you taste that particular variety, you think, oh, god. This is so underrated at which more people knew about it. Sure. No. That's wow. Again, the world's your oyster there, mister, mister Walden. So many. Greeniolino. How good is Greeniolino when it's when it's on form. Same thing about Fraser. And that's just Piamonte. Back to the Alto Adi Jay, Sylvana. Sylvana is so good when it's when it's made well, you know, at altitude. I've tasted some silvanas from up there that are just breathtaking. So, yeah, there are all sorts. So that's just, you know, two regions. Corvino's capable making great stuff. So it's so it's Vadicchio. Any but those are quite well known already. You're you're talking about the more obscure ones. Greenulino, certainly, Sylvana stuff like, Pino Byango. How good is Pino Byan long made. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It's very refreshing and, sort of, and and it's gluggable and interesting even though it hasn't got a huge amount of flavor. It's it's a pencil, you know, they're flavor, you know? How essential is flavor? I I I tend to like wines that are sort of subtle and graceful and much well with food. And a lot of flavor in the wine doesn't always lend itself to that use. Just a thought for you to model. That's a good point. Yeah. I mean, what was interesting when you said that in in your in your sort of top areas, I mean, obviously, Altoity is is well known as well known for its whites as it is for its reds. And then, obviously, Vadickia is a is a is a is a white and you've obviously talked about in Swave as well. Yeah. I love Swave. They've done a huge amount of work, understanding their terroir and and really getting those wines, you know, into sort of first class, trajectory. In terms of in terms of your work, as a journalist, you write for DeGantim, many other, other publications, and, do you see any trends, journalistically, or pressure from editors or suggestions from editors regarding Italy. And what kind of assignments do you do you like getting and what kind of assignments don't you like getting? Well, I'm in the fortunate positions of freelance journalists where, you know, I can be fairly sort of choosy about what assignments I take on. And the assignments that I actually follow through are usually ones that I've suggested myself because people say, well, what would you like to write about? I'd like to write about that, please. Which is great because it, it allows me sort of free rein. I don't think I'm the right person to ask, to be honest, because I I, maybe can you sort of try and tease a bit more out of me, Brian. I mean, okay. So, you know, if, you know, we we got two tickets to Italy tomorrow, for a week or or or ten days, all expenses paid. And I'm gonna let you choose the itinerary where would your, outside of Pierre Monte, where would your first stops be, not just for the wine and the food, but just for the general, just the whole thing, not just wine related. Not just wine related. Oh, golly. Yeah. I mean, just knowing when you got great wine, lovely food, lovely landscape, everything that you would want, to to relax, whilst enjoying the fruits of the knowledge of your of your trade. Uh-huh. Barona's always a big choice, for me. I love barona. There are certain places that I would always go back to there. One of my favorite restaurants is up in Valpolicella, you possibly know it. It's, if you know the, Nagra valley, little village up in the Nagra valley called Tourbe. There's a restaurant there called It's just one of my favorite places to be. It's an wholly unpretentious restaurant. It's very much Cucina Casalinga. They make their own pasta. Which is just absolutely glorious pasta. They make it fresh every day. And the food is wholly uncomplicated. For a starter, you'll get, you know, something like a soft press with homemade and what better starter is than that, followed by a plate of glorious pasta with, you know, a very sort of traditional meat sauce. Nothing complicated. Nothing particularly sophisticated about it, but the The icing on this particular cake is that they have a great wine list and you can drink some wonderful valpolicella up there from smaller growers who are making really good stuff. I love that place. And while we're in Verona, I'd probably take you to, meet, you know, Giovanni Edale. He's a guy with a a small winery and, a little forleciera up on the hill around Torisela. Overlooking verona, overlooking the central sort story color. And that's I think it's on the hill between Queens and Aviso. And he's right on the limits of the Valpolicella. Denomination. It makes glorious foul polycheddar up there. You can stay there. It's where I always stay when I go to in Italy, and it's got the most amazing view down over the hillside overlooking the central historical verona. So there's something about verona that really captures my imagination. But as a place, I love the wines there, obviously, and there's some great places to eat there. So we'd certainly stop there Amaroni. How do you get on with, Amaroni? How do I get on with Amaroni? Well, I wrote a book about it. It's I think the the best description I heard of Amaroni was by The the the the the venerable. He's even older than I am. But he's he's also much smarter and much wealthier. Sandra Bosghaney of Mazi. He he Right example is a niche wine. And he's got the mail on the head there. It's become a huge commercial success. It's produced nine vast quantities compared with what it used to be made. And, yeah, at the same time, you know, it's very production method would work against it being a wine that is available in large quantities. So it's a really it's an unusual wine, and that has all sorts of reaper cussions and statements to make about, you know, what is wine and how it's made and what it's made for. On a more personal level, I'd sooner drink a good Voil polyachella any day any day, really. Amaroni, It's a really fascinating wine, but it's something that, personally, I would sort of only drink a few times a year. And then, you know, what circumstances would I drink it? And that's the other thing about it. It's so difficult to match your food. When there are a few classic dishes, obviously, like, which is cooked with Amaroni and Brazat or Amaroni, obviously, is that as well. But I I like armor only best if, if I've had a a sort of a if I've eaten, I don't know, you know, a hearty lunch. And in the evening, ours might be a bit peckish, but I don't wanna eat a lot. I'll just have some crackers and cheese. That's when Amaroni comes into its into its own. It's a a wonderful wine with cheese. But with most other foods, it's just too big and too, too richly flavored. So I I see it as very much on each one. It's a really interesting line made in a completely, you know, unique way, but it is a line that is perhaps at its best if viewed as a niche one. I'll probably chose a different story associated with one of the world's great and most un underestimated red wines. What about, Swave when you, obviously, that's a big region, a big production and a complicated production area, are there particular styles of suave, either from altitude or from soil types that you particularly like, or is it still for you the most important stylistic driver is the producer in in what herself? I think. Yeah. That's it's a, yeah, a really perceptive question. I mean, obviously, the sort of best lines come from the best producers. And hopefully, when they have, the right sort of vineyards, it's a it's it takes you towards the kind of, you know, the apogee of the the denomination. Swave, when it's good, is is so good. You think of something like geely Salvarenza. That's one particular style that I think illustrates one particular side of swallowing and it's a side that perhaps people aren't quite so so familiar with. I it can be a I'll a wine that ages wonderfully, in in bottle and just gets better and better. And I don't know if you've been lucky enough to taste sort of older vintages with Jeannie, but even the basic wine, can last for up to twenty years, you know, and and indeed improve over a long period. So that's one side. The perhaps the less well known side of Swave, but I also love the the the the the the sort of the simpler styles, the less complicated styles if you like. They're all about kind of freshness and elegance, and freshness and elegance is, you know, what Italy, Italy does best. But Bell and everyone else in my view, and those are the two qualities that I perhaps appreciate more in wine than than any others. So I know that, one of the you obviously travel a lot, and, you're always busy busy, busy lad at being a judging and writing and all the rest of it. Your your hinterland, if I got you correct, you are a lifelong supporter of Manchester United Football Club. And the final question today, who is your favorite Manchester United player of all time and why. Okay. My favorite that's a really easy one. Bear in mind that I've been very lucky. I first went to old trafford in nineteen sixty one. Yeah. That's a long time ago. Golly. That's a long time ago, nearly sixty years ago. So I've seen some of the great, I saw best. Charlton, obviously, and more recently, be plays like Ronaldo. My favorite ever Manchester's United player is Eric Cantana. Really because he played with such swagger. He was a flawed genius, and that was always close to my heart. And I think genius is should have a flaw. No one would choose perfection. But he came very close to you on the pitch. He was majestic. And what I particularly admired about him was that the effect he had on his teammates In four of the five seasons that he was old trafford, we won the league. The only reason we didn't in the other season was because he was missing, for most of it after being suspended for his karate kick. So he had this amazing ability to make the team gel. And, the younger players around him would he'd show faith in them, and they'd respond in kind by sort of playing out with their skins. The effect he had on players like David Beckham and Paul Skells, I think, you know, you'd be, unwise to underestimate the effect that playing with alongside Eric Cantinal had on great players like that. So no hesitation there. Eric's the was the month for me. Okay. No no hesitation at all there. No. No. No whatsoever. No. I mean, are there other great players. I've mentioned some of them. I'd sort of show in a mention for Roy Keane while I was there. Not always the most popular. Guy around not always the most subtle either, but he was a player to be reckoned with. And, surprisingly, as a footballer per se underrated, because he was better known for sort of, other aspects of his, footballing career. But he was, a player that was very underestimated as well, but Eric Cantonize is the one that I keep with me. Thanks, Michael. I just wanna say thanks Michael, Michael Garner, for, taking us on a little tour, around not just the inner workings of the UK wine trade, but also, around some of his favorite spots in Italy. And, thanks for coming on the Italian wine podcast and sharing your wealth of knowledge. We've only tapped into a tiny part of that. So we may have to get you back again at some stage. Okay. You alright for that, Michael? Yeah. No problem, Monty. It was a pleasure. Nice to talk to you. Okay. Thanks, Michael. My pleasure. I hope to see you again before too long. Bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud Apple Podcasts HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianline podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment and publication costs. Until next time