Ep. 445 Thomas Curtius MW

Italian wine podcast is a proud media partner of wine to wine twenty twenty. This November twenty third and twenty fourth is the seventh edition of the business forum wine to wine. Featuring seventy sessions dedicated to the wine industry. Normally held in verona Italy. This is the first ever full digital edition of the forum. On November twenty first, wine spectator will kick off the proceedings with a free to register opera wine presentation. Featuring the hundred best Italian wines of the year. Point to wine twenty five tickets available at wine to wine dot net. Italian wine podcast. Chincin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monty Walden. My guest today is Thomas Cortius, who is a master of wine welcome Thomas. Thank you, Monty. Happy to be here. Now, Thomas, were quite a force in the wine world, and our listeners would surely want to know what it was that drew you to wine, because you seem to have had or had a very well rounded previous career. So for the benefit of our listeners, what exactly was your previous career and how did you ultimately become a master of wine? Oh, this is really a long story. I don't know how much time we have, but, okay, Yeah. I will keep it keep it short. So, yeah, I was born in Frankonia, so not in Swabear where I'm living now. I'm in Frankonia in Willsburg. So in the middle of a of a virus, you can say, but In the first part of my life, I was really more with, journalism. So when I started, I studied in, in, in mines, well, this is near Frankfurt, and I studied their journalism, economy, and politics. And I my my first how can I say my, my first attempt into life was really going into journalism? I worked there for newspapers. I worked for, German TV stations. So I I was an editor for the first German news television, station. It was in Berlin after my studies. And, during this time, I got into the connection with the automotive industry And I, was then hired to come to to Stuttgart working there for an automotive manufacturer to build up a kind of television communication department at that time. Yes. And, my direct connection with wine started at that time because, you know, we we did a lot of events also, especially also in Italy, and there I came into contact with really, great wines. And So my my my interest sparks, sparked at that time just to know a little bit more about about mine. And at that time, my my my girlfriend, and now she's now my my wife, I got from her wine seminar as a gift at that time. This was the beginning then. Then I I I started doing wine seminar. I I took other courses, sensory courses, first at the German wine Institute, then I started, I think it was two thousand seven. I started with the WST diploma at that time. Yes. And after the diploma, I thought, okay. Maybe I know what I should know about wine, but you know, Monty, I think that's the same, like everybody who's bitten by the wine bag, you can't stop. And Zona had the the chance to go into the master of wine program. Yep. And then I started at that time, And luckily, I think, it was now one year ago. And this day, or tomorrow, one year ago, I got my certificate in London, and I think these were really different times from now. So this wasn't in a nutshell, my career. So do you think some of the qualities that make a good journalist are some of the same qualities that can serve someone studying wine and getting to know, I don't know, far flung parts of the globe and the unique wine to each territory produces? Yeah. I think I'm a kind of a curious guy. So, and I was always interested in in interested in looking behind things and and and discover more and and ask, or since I was a boy, a lot of questions. And and I was really impressed when I when the these times, it was in the nineteen eighties when the private news television like CNN came up and they started with these live broadcasting from all over the world. You know, these times, Peter Arnette opened his luggage, and he's the satellite equipment in his luggage. And he did these live TV things. Today, you do it with your mobile phone. Also, quite different time. But this was something which really hooked me. And this was something where I thought I could bring, something or give, give something back to the society, sharing knowledge and communicating things. And, yeah, this was the beginning for me, and I I always was interested in storytelling listening to stories, but then also tell stories in a different way and to make things, easy to get for others, yeah, make different or difficult things try to communicate them in an easier way that people understand this. This was my my kind of feeling when I went into that thing. And, you know, with journalism, every day, you get other other people to meet. You get get other information, new things to experience and to explore And, yeah, this hooked me from the first date. So these days, the wine consumer has access to loads of information at their fingertips, and you really focus on storytelling and using human stories to open up the world of wine for enthusiasts. Do you think people are generally overwhelmed by the choices of information available, or do you think we have benefits that previous generations didn't necessarily have I think I think you have both. I think today, it's it's much different from some some years ago. So I think today, you have these kind of bandwidth of kind of wine communication. You have a lot of people in it, a lot of blocks and podcasts and videos. Where people explain in a very interesting and I think very compelling ways, way, why in an easier way than just in that mood, in that style that you talk just to people, which which have, at least as, no, as much knowledge as you have. But I think even today, I think sometimes, and this is some things I experienced for myself. We are sometimes so enthusiastic about wine, and we all are in these kind of bubble that sometimes I think everybody of us forgets that, there might be people who who don't know so much. Therefore, I like it, for instance, not just doing master classes, classes with experts, but but doing also a lot of mind communications for the for the, in brackets, normal consumer because you get so many questions which are so basic, but so important that it brings you down, and it it always helps me just to come back to the ground and to the scratch and also to to to think about how I'm personally communicating about wine. So I think This is something which I see today more and more that you find these more approachable way. Yeah. And you don't have these gatekeepers like you had in past where just a few people talk about wine. Today, you have so many channels, so many information sources. So many peers also talking about wine that I think it's much more democratic today, and it's much more diverse and interesting. Also for the, people who are not so deeply involved into that. I think the same thing with other things. I'm from from I'm a cow coffee guy. I like drinking coffee, but I'm I'm not the guy who wants to discover every different bean. But also I found some interesting coffee blocks for instance where I said, hey, now I really understand what they mean with that and that. And I think this has this is a huge benefit of the social media, of the internet, and the different sources we have today. Can you can you give an example of how storytelling can help Italian wine producers, introduce foreign markets to grape varieties or wine styles? Is Aetna the best example? Where else can Italian producers capitalize to create an engaging narrative? No. This was I I think you found it on my website. This was I I sometimes I take Mount Aetna as an example show how you can communicate a region, to a broader audience and to get your feet on the ground. If you have, stories to tell this Mount Aetna thing, the last thing I did, it was for the for a Serbian wine community. There was a conference about proko parts that is an indigenous grape variety from Serbia. And the question was, how can we mark an, a indigenous grape like this outside Serbia, and I I took Nrelo and, among Aetna, as an example, same. I took Blough Frankish, one for us, Austria, how you can communicate an e d genius thing or a region, which is not very well known at the time. In a proper way just to get your message out and that the people recognize you and that the people see, hey, this is interesting and get curious about what you are doing, and the message is spread afterwards. Are these natural history stories, for example, or are these personal stories that focus on the human element? So, no, for me, the the point was I started in a more holistic way as that I I came from the from the region and from the grapes saying, okay, what are when you're talking about the tradition, how it is grown, and, of course, then also the grape properties. But coming, for instance, the Mount Aetna saying you have these kind of higher altitude wine, you have these, you have very interesting people, coming into the region like Frank Cornelis, and for instance, you have also people living in the region for a long time, adapting things, interpreting, traditions in a new way. And have these kind of personal stories spread. I think this is when when we are talking, on a on a bigger scale, I think this is, in, in most cases, more interesting than just talking about these grape properties. Yeah. Because I think what I see in communication always, you need a meaning for anything, and you need a kind of frame around and, a context. And if you, if you have an interesting context to tell the people, I think, then it's easier to understand also the specific properties of a vine if I get a little bit more information about the region. If I have an interesting winemaking personality who tells me his story or her story, and, why he's doing things. Then I remember, and then I'm getting curious, especially when we are talking about the, the consumer who are not, just being a sommelier, but even the sommelier has, needs a story to tell, his clients. So and coming, around with this kind of storytelling and look, what is different, what is interesting, like Mount Aetna, coming also, of course, with the volcanic soil, the altitude, which make the region special and interesting people telling their stories, how they approach things, how they do things differently, do more in a natural way in a low intervention aspect or whatever. So I think this creates attention. And and this, to my mind, is the most what's the interesting part in communication to tell these stories. So can you summarize the takeaways from Aetna in three words, for example? I think I think in three words, it's difficult, but I think it's always the general thing is you have people, what I said, coming interesting people coming from outside into a region, discover things which, in that region, but which might be a little bit forgotten from the outer world. And create a new spark. This is like the Aetna when you have people, like I said, Frank Conaleson, for instance, but you can also go to, from to Priorad when you have Renee Babier and and his colleagues, and you'll find these examples for many places. And and I think this is something which always interests me. Okay. So on your blog, you've been writing about the wines of Georgia. What makes these wines unique for you. Yeah. I think there are two things which really impressed me. And one thing is when you come from the from the traditional side. Yeah. So if you have these, wines in the amphora and the cavalry, So this is something which I really found extremely interesting having these mines, which are six months or longer onskins in the in the vessels buried down in the earth. Which gives you these complex, incredibly intense yet elegant wines. This is one thing. And the other thing is that I'm really impressed, if you see also the people behind these these wines, people who create these who are people who are really incredible proud of their home, of their traditions, but who also do this in a very modern and in a very open and inclusive way. So, hosting you and treating you very well-being very humble. And and this combination, of humble people and and great wines, this is something which always, they it always gets me. So Thomas, this year, you were judging the five star wine competition for Viniti International, and you did that remotely in your house, having had the wines sent to you and your other colleagues. I mean, did you enjoy that experience? And how did you How did you, communicate with each other when you were deciding the point score for each particular wine? Yeah. This was really an an an absolutely interesting experience for me because it was really the first time that I did this kind of hybrid judging, how I call it in these modern in these modern words because, like, they send us the wines in boxes covered. So it was completely anonymized. And and then we we were we shared a kind of video conference over the whole day when we were judging, and you could see each other doing these judgings. It was not a it was it was not an exchange at that time regarding, okay, sharing the points. So everybody had, specific lots and just these. And others, I think they they had similar, a lot. So they could compare it afterwards. But, the interesting thing was really this kind of sitting at home, but joining the community and and tasting in a way that, of course, you were at home, but you really felt at that time connected to so many peoples all over Europe and all over Italy, which gave me really a kind of special feeling doing this. And, you know, this was in that phase when we were still in the first lockdown. And so, it was really also a new experience because before, okay, you just know these, I do things completely dry as a kind of webinar, or even then on-site, which we do hundreds of times. And I this was really special, and I think, of course, it was from the organizational side for the for the Vin Italy guy. I think it was a mess for them to pack all the boxes and to send them around that everybody has them in the same day. So a huge logistic effort. And that really impressed me also. Mhmm. And, in terms of the wines, what, what stood out for you? What, what stood out for me? I think this is the wines I tasted. I had a really, an interesting range over several, regions. And what I always like for myself, but this is, of course, not just about judging is I like wines with freshness. I like wines with character. I like wines. They speak their their own language, they speak their origin, and they tell you just more than, oh, I'm this in this great variety. And that found really very interesting characters. And especially also from from styles like some very interesting, Lambrusco wines. I had very some interesting prosecco. And, yeah, this, as a whole, the the whole situation, in combination with really these very interesting wines, and also knowing the situation, for the wine industry at that time, that that also these kind of judging and also these kind of communication and also these kind of marketing, how important this is for them, these are things who all come together than judging these things. Just a quick thing on sparkling wine. I used to work with a a master wine called Christopher Donald, and I'm sure you've met him, and he used to work at harrods in London, and, a wine another wine shop in London when we met. He always said, he found, tasting sparkling wines is always really, really difficult. Do you do you feel the same way or do you think, sparkling wines are easy? I think, to to be honest, I think sparkling wines, of course, the the point is always, yeah, a little bit when and and how you taste these wines. I think in the situation, like sitting at home, opening them directly so that you also that there's no delay between importing them, discarding with others, and you're losing time until you can try them. And you also had because you have your box at home, you can also retaste some things, which makes it easier. I'm I also share the impression that it's not as easy because, of course, but it's like with all the other stats, they take their time. When you open the bottle freshly, you pour it, and you taste it directly, you miss something maybe. So it's always good to have more time doing these things. But if you have more time, like this time, we had I think then it makes for me, no big difference. Yeah. You have also other styles which don't scream in the beginning, which needs some air, which which needs some settlement, and, for a proper judgment, but I think, yeah, this is this is with with sparkling mind, it can be difficult. Yeah. So you're affiliated with the wine and spirit Education Trust's international advisory board. What does that involve? The alumni advisory board, we are kind of, like I said, an advisory board for the WSTT. It's about as Alumneys to help or to advise the, WST a little bit in, okay, how could we strengthen the network with the Alumneys? And I think this is something which is really one of the big pluses of the big, you can say, the jewels of the the gems of the WST that have such a broad network, and I think it's such a big benefit for every everybody who has passed the course, who's part of the WST family for jobs, for further education, for inspiration to exploit this network, and our job or our our purpose is just to develop ideas, to organize events, to, think about how to communicate to the aluminis to strengthen the network and to establish new connections. And we are there's a representative from every continent, and we are linked to, the different alumni networks, which exist within the W SAT, a kind of sounding board also for the the W SAT management so that, I think we developed some nice ideas, really how to strengthen things, yeah, to do some tastings, but also do some workshops to, organize exchanges, yeah, just to bring people together. Okay. Are you also good at consulting business, courteous wine consulting. What is that about? Yeah. It's a it's a kind of wine communication agency. So in a broad sense, so, on the on the one hand, developing for customer helping on, going onto a market market launch, when you're on a market doing, doing communications there, organizing master classes, developing new, marketing concepts, bringing also people together, creating networking, creating new ideas, and especially, yeah, organizing PR and marketing efforts. For instance, we're doing, and my, my wife, she's, in charge of the agency. We're doing the communication for Wyenos Trailia in Germany. For instance, they are doing the roadshows, organizing fares, like the ProWine, answer sharing questions, doing journalists trips, and so on, and so on. How did you meet your wife? I couldn't resist. Sorry. How did you meet your wife then? We meet quite early at university sitting together in the auditorium during a really, a really boring politics lecture, but I think it was the most useful lecture in my life because this is now about twenty seven, twenty eight years ago, and we are still together. So really good effort of her. But you you I mean, you sound like you're you're a teenager when you speak. I'm I'm an absolute teammate with fifty one. So I'm not sure if I'm really a teenager. Depends on the perspective, you know, Monty. Okay. Now you used to work in TV and also for automobile, manufacturers, which obviously a very important part of the, German economy. Just tell us a bit about that period of your life. And then was that the stepping stone into wine? Yeah. They I think all were were these kind of small parts of a pieces of a puzzle, you know. I think for the when we were talking before about the TV things was creating pictures, storytelling, kind of, of communicating things, start off telling stories in a different way, thinking in advance how to tell stories because when you do TV, and especially in these times, you had a huge equipments to take with you compared to what you need today. So you you needed also good planning of doing things. And then the the automotive industry, as I told you, it was then when you when it brought me on the one hand, which was also important getting management experience how to talk people in management, how to handle things on a bigger scale, but also, like I said, coming in touch with wines, during events in different regions, yeah, and then being inspired also by people who who are of already or at that time knew much more about these wines than I did. And but who really inspired me to taste different things and, wanting to know more about them. Are you you're a bit of a foodie? And I'm gonna invite you for dinner metaphorically this evening with an Italian meal, and you must turn up with three three wines. You haven't you've got no idea what is on the menu. So you're gonna have to be pragmatic and think something that is good everyday wines. It will go with almost anything. So, one for, the aperitif, one for the main course, and one for, after dinner. Yeah. So I think when I don't know the food, so for me, I would go for my my own mood, and I would try to bring you some different, but hopefully interesting stuff. So I would go I would go to bring you a grade for the aperitif, a great German sect with me. Something special one, which you haven't tried before. For the main, of course, I would go for an Australian Italian grape variety. For instance, it's going, they have also these kind of Italian grapes growing in Australia. For instance, I would bring a Nebula from the King Valley with me. It's just something you might not have tried before. And for the this, sir, I would go mad depend it would depend a little bit on my mood. Something maybe also some fresh, refreshing, maybe also another German one, but going for a nice house laser or something like this, which give you with low alcohol, with freshness, which brings back the energy after a great dinner, which we would have. Okay. Tomorrow morning, your wife wakes up and says, I want us to go and live in Italy tomorrow. And both of you are guaranteed work and jobs and mortgage and everything. So there's no financial stress. Where would you go? Where would you choose? And would your wife agree with you? That's the key thing. So where to go? Yep. You can only choose one region. One just one region. So, I would To be honest, I would go to Alto Adi. Yeah. Okay. And you know what? We would want to know why because we wanted to go there the next weeks, but now with the lockdown, we can't. But if we could have the opportunity to go now, then we would really go to share a lot of great food with great friends we have there. And but, of course, if you would offer us then to go to another region, maybe we want to drive a little bit further to the valpolicella. Nice. Obviously, you're a very busy guy, but I'm sure you're busy on social media. How can people find you online or via social media? So that's very easy online. You find me under w w w Thomas Minos, Munozus, promo. That's my website. That's quite easy. You find me also on Facebook. Thomas Grozus, quite easy. And then on Instagram with t c, unplugged. So I say thanks to my guest today. Thomas Cortias for taking us on a bit of a whirlwind from study to food to wine. We hope to see you again on the podcast to catch up. You're a very busy man always changing doing doing different things. So I have to get you back on the podcast and find out what happens to you over the next couple of years. Take care. Thank you. 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