Ep. 485 Rania Zayyat

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This week with me Rebecca Lawrence, taking the place of Monte Walden while he's off doing, oh, not really sure what he's up to. Maybe he's tending his biodynamic garden. Maybe he's out taking some portraits. But that doesn't lessen the significance of the guest we've got today. I am it's a great pleasure and an honor to have Rania Zayat with us to talk about, her wine journey and the amazing thing she's doing in the history. So Rania is the founder of the Wonder Women of Wine. So, Rania, how did you come to wine? Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little bit of a background. Sure. Yes. Well, thank you. It's great to be here, first of all. And, yes, So I have been working in the wine industry for ten years now, and I've been in the hospitality industry for seventeen years. So I started working in restaurants, really when I was, in my senior year of high school and was, using my time in restaurants just, you know, as a way to make money. I was starting to go to college, and I fell into that industry. I don't even remember. I mean, I I had some friends who were working in it and who encouraged me to to get started, and I was very nervous. I felt like, I was, I was really afraid of just, like, the social interaction with talking to people, tableside, initially. And so I started off as a hostess, and then slowly transitioned into, waiting tables. And it was really my time in restaurants that sort of led me down this path into wine. I was going to college at the University of Houston, and started studying journalism initially and then switched my major over to anthropology. I was really fascinated with culture and kind of always had this drive to do some sort of advocacy work or something really intertwined with culture. And, I remember even from a young age, I wanted to be a paleontologist, and then an archaeologist, and then an Egyptologist, and then a missionary and all these things that, and and I'll say this, missionary work was something I was really passionate about when I was in high school, then I'm actually not, Christian anymore. I was back then. So it's just kinda funny that I sort of fell into advocacy working under their capacity. But, yeah, so, as I was working in restaurants, I remember, in two thousand ten, I, got a job at this steak house in Houston called Pappas Brothers. Sake house, which is, known for having one of the largest and most robust wine programs in the world. They got a wine spectator grand award when I was working there in two thousand ten, and so it was really my first time working with a team of sommeliers. There was five of them when I started at the restaurant, and I was a server. And wine was really like the epicenter of this restaurant. It was a wine destination. It still is a wine nation for many people. And, I was just fascinated, and I knew that in order to be, you know, a better salesperson and a better server, I felt like I needed to learn about wine to just better, you know, speak to my guests and and have better product knowledge. So for me, it was almost like this business sort of transactional thing that I was doing to make more money as a server. And then also just for my own interest, I was really already kind of into wine, drinking wine regularly. Home. I'll be at, you know, sometimes it was Francia box red, way in my early twenties. But I was the youngest server there when I started. I was twenty three. I was a young woman. You know, I was in a restaurant and environment where you know, a lot of people had worked there for fifteen years and were lifers and kind of older. So I also felt like I had to prove myself. And so that was like another aspect of it. But, yeah, I started studying and, decided to start taking some sort of locations and exams, and classes. And so I was doing that for several years, and then showed an interest in moving into the wine department there. So I started picking up shifts, doing seller work, and inventory, and, you know, all those fun, really fun thing that you do when you're trying to break into wine. And so that was really kind of how I got started. And then by the end of my tenure there, in, two thousand thirteen, I was working a few few sommelier shifts in the floor and was loving it. And, and then eventually I actually moved to Austin in two thousand fourteen to open up a restaurant here where I live now. And, I've stayed in wine ever since and have taken several exams at this point and have started many projects and side businesses and currently am the wine director at a restaurant here in Austin, which I love. I've been at this restaurant since two thousand seventeen, May two thousand seventeen. Wow. So is this the restaurant that you opened? Cause I do wanna dive a little bit into the kind of food and wine scene in Texas. I'm a huge fan of Austin in particular. It's one of my favorite cities in the states. So while we've got you with us for an inside of you, tell us a little bit about the the opening of the restaurant. Is that where you still are? That is not where I am anymore. So, the restaurant I opened in two thousand fourteen was called La Vee restaurant wine bar, and it was really the, largest wine program in Austin whenever we opened. We had about a sixteen hundred bottle selection, an insane inventory. It was very heavy on back vintage burgundy and Bordeaux and Roan wines, really created around the owners pallet, who was a collector as well. And it was a really great experience. It was my first time working for a woman, Samuel, so I was under the direction of, woman named Vilma Visaiti, who's still a dear friend of mine. And it was a great journey. I learned so much about Berundy working there and really fine tuned my wine service. And also, Austin was so different, than Houston in so many ways. And Houston is very much like this business energy center of the United States since you had so many business people, business men coming in and traveling and drinking big wine, ordering big steaks, and really kind of flashy spending of money. And, really catered that the restaurant really catered to, I would say the top one per sense. So coming to Austin, it was really almost a shock to to me culturally because Austin is sort of the antithesis of that. Austin is very casual, very old school, you know, a lot of hippies, money is not, people don't spend it on, you know, ten thousand dollar bottles of wine, like they do in Houston, and not that they don't have that money, but that's just not that's not part of the culture here in restaurants. More about, like, who has the best happy hour and, you know, cocktails, were a big thing when I moved here in two thousand fourteen. And so it was really an interesting restaurant for me to be a part of because I was understanding how to make people feel comfortable in an environment that was really set up to be, you know, very fancy and very, upscale and was just sort of an anomaly here in in Austin. But what I took away from that experience was I had a natural ability to make people feel comfortable no matter how much they wanted to spend on a bottle of wine. And so if they happen to open up the wine list and land it on, you know, the the von Romane burgundy section where, you know, you see all these bottles that are thousands of dollars, I was really able to kind of walk people through, okay, what are you looking for, you know, make them feel comfortable knowing what they wanted to spend and creating a great experience for them without them feeling intimidated. So that was really important to me. Unfortunately, that restaurant did close after a year and nine months. So it's sort of a sudden thing, so I didn't see that coming. And it took me a little while to really find an environment that was suited to my skill set into my personality. And so I jumped around a little bit after that. I worked at the four seasons hotel for about six months. I was the Somelier there. And that was great because it really brought together, you know, the environments that I was used to, a lot of big dollar spenders and sort of traveling people. And but I realized quickly that hotels were just too bureaucratic for me, and I wanted to be in a smaller environment. And so I moved to June's wine bar, which was, newly opened. This was in the summer of two thousand sixteen, and, it was opened by a restaurant group here in town, along with a master Sommelier named Junyrdill. And so I took that job as the beverage manager there and was there for about seven months. It was in the very touristy part of Austin. And, it was just a little bit too I I felt I honestly I was burnt out working there. It was a lot of hours, a lot of maintenance of the wine list, a lot of expectations that I just felt like were not really suited for me. And so I quickly just wanted to get out. I was also studying for my master sommelier exam for the first time there. So I was kind of under a lot of stress trying to manage my schedule and find time to study. And I just decided to take a step back and and you know, swallow my pride and go back to surveying for a little while. And so I was in love with the wine program at a restaurant called Beaufelina. It was my favorite restaurant in town, my favorite wine list. They had a big focus on natural wines, and also, you know, some great burgundy and and, you know, kind of classic wines as well, but really with a a focus on natural wines and also a price point that I felt was more suitable for Austin clientele. And so I started there as server. It was great. It was definitely, an exercise for me to sort of step out of a management role and go back to waiting tables. But I felt welcomed there, and so many of my friends and and people that I knew in the wine industry would all go there. It still is very much like a very central wine destination hub in the city. And so as I worked there, I just started paying more attention to how I could contribute to the wine program. And after a while, I started consulting with the owner and helping him with the wine list and eventually moved into a wine director role. So that's where I am, to this day and am absolutely in love with it and am going to be a partner in the restaurant, starting next year as well. So I I do have long term interests and investment, in this concept, and it's great. Sounds like you've really found exactly the kind of perfect place for you to be, like, having come through this long journey and having taken that think you say that step back from being in that management role to go back to service can be must have been incredibly humbling and very interesting, and and is really playing dividends now because you're in the place that you're happiest and most comfortable. It's so true. Yes. I'm so grateful for it. I wanted to think a little bit about this connection you were saying about, you know, always having been someone who can make people comfortable, which I think combines with what you were saying about advocacy because your journey in wine hasn't actually been quite as easy as maybe it sounds from your intro. For those who logged on to watch wine to wine, they know a little bit about your background and and obviously the troubling issues with the Court of Master Smelier. In the United States. So I wanted to bring us to your work with the Wonder Women of Wine, because I think this is an incredible initiative, was so excited when you started it. So What prompted you to start this? What's its mission? Yes. So our min our mission has been, to advocate for gender equality in the wine industry and beyond. And I started wonder, a minute of wine, really, in early two thousand eighteen, It was right after the Me Too movement had started, in in late two thousand seventeen, which, just happened to fall around the time that the forty fifth president was taking office in the United States, and we were having, a lot more conversations about, you know, chauvinism and misogyny and assault and abuse, and that I, you know, had come to light not only with the president's, you know, behavior and stories and, you know, allegations, but also there was just we were I felt like all of a sudden there was this kind of breaking open of this box and people finally being able to say, oh, we can we can talk about these things openly. Oh, we can be we can be angry about them. It was so empowering. And I'd never seen anything. I don't remember when I was younger, I never saw, or went through, like, this experience where I saw women coming together in such a collective and powerful way to use their voices to fight for change. And I I had all this energy inside of me, and I wanted to channel it into something powerful and meaningful. And for me, I started really reflecting on, you know, my experiences in in working in wine. And, especially my experiences whenever I was first getting started when I was out that steak house, and, you know, working with an all male summary team, also pursuing certification with the court. And I always remember feeling like I had to change my way of doing things or my perspective or toughen toughen up and be, you know, put on a tough face when I was table sized so that people would take me seriously, especially around, you know, a bunch of Oh, cis white, powerful, wealthy males. There was so many times where I just felt like I wasn't who they wanted to talk to, at the table. It was more do you actually know what you're talking about? Are you old enough to drink? You look really young. You're so pretty. You know, all these these really demeaning kind of paper cuts of experiences and also with studying with the the Court of Master Sunliers, that was really the the path that was presented to me as the most meaningful. And if I wanted to move into a summary position at this restaurant. I had to take and pass these exams, and that was that was really challenging because so much of the court is focused on building relationships with the the masters. And as we know, a majority of them are older white men. And so, so many, you know, one of my mentors at the time, what always told me, like, oh, you need to, you need to befriend the masters. You need to get on their side. You need to form a relationship with them because they're gonna be the ones that are going to invite you to take these higher level exams. And so if you want to be successful, you have to, get to know them. And in my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm twenty three, twenty four, twenty five. How what do I have in common with these older older dudes? You know, like, how do I how do I and it was so intimidating to me and just didn't seem it didn't seem natural. And so, you know, along with that experience, I when I started the organization, my goal was to highlight and celebrate the women in the industry who I thought were doing incredible work simply because they've had to put up with similar behavior and experiences throughout their career. And we've all we've all put up with it. It's all, you know, we share a similar story. I mean, everyone has their own unique experiences, but the overall feeling of being less than or not being taken seriously, I think is something that we can all attest to. And so I wanted to create a a space where women felt empowered where they felt celebrated where they could learn to advocate for themselves in professional situations and in social situations that, you know, casual wine tastings and just feel like they have a voice in someone who wants to lift them up rather than bring them down. That was really important to me. I have to say it's been particularly inspiring for me. Being slightly newer in my wine career sort of started six six or seven years ago. And like you say, there just weren't women to look up to not that they weren't there, but they were often being hidden behind the scenes. You didn't they didn't have that kind of exposure. And there was often a fear, like you say, of, like, being able to lift each other up and being able to shout about the achievements or also potentially being able to offer different parts. Like you say, there's there's clear distinct kind of, oh, well, you must do this. You must go and get your education here. This is how you have to do it. And one of the things that I really like about the work you're doing is highlighting the different ways that you can approach your career and wine if you're a woman or if anyone, women, or otherwise. So on that note, tell us a little bit about the be the change initiative. Yes. So be the change while we just wrapped up our first event last week So be the change was it is a joint project, joint initiative between myself and and one enrollment of wine, my friend, Leah Jones, and her organization, diversity and wine and spirits. And then Cara Bertone, who is the vice president of Wonder Woman of Wine Board of Directors and also, works for Foleo Fine Wine Partners, and then Felana Bovier, who is going to be a future board member for Wonderman Wine, but it also works in the Fine Wine Suck of R and D. C. And Young's market. And so, we actually all got connected really serendipitously. I had heard of Leah through another person that I was reaching out to to be a speaker, what would have been our twenty twenty conference, which was postponed because of the pandemic, but I'd, reached out to Leah Jones. I'd heard about Felana as well through my friend Cara. Cara lives here in Austin, so I've known her for many years. And, I invited Leaha and Feana to speak on and moderate the advocacy panel that we were going to be putting on. And after the conference was postponed, I know that Valana, she was the moderator. She had already sort of been in contact with some of the speakers on that panel And her and Leah became quick friends virtually, and they reached out to me sometime, in the summer. And just said, Hey, we we really think that we still wanna move forward with doing something. We know that the conference is postponed, but we just have some ideas and we'd love to talk to you and get you involved. And so, we had a couple brainstorming calls, and we're really just trying to figure out what to do and, came up with the idea of hosting a virtual job fair that was focused on diversity and inclusion. There's nothing like that in the wine And as we know, the wine industry has gone through some tough hits, especially in the US this year with tariffs, you know, increasing tariffs and a lot of people being displaced and laid off because of that. And then also with the pandemic, there's, you know, obviously a big layoff that happened in the industry with that. And so we were like, how do we we know that there are jobs out there? How do we bring people jobs? People need to make money first and foremost. But also we know that this has been such a a year of awakening as far as understanding diversity and inclusion with, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, the murder of George Floyd here in the US, and also just people all of a sudden feeling, like, what can we do to contribute to diversity and inclusion in the industry. And that's really how the job fair got started. We, Leah is a diversity and inclusion specialist. That's what her organization does. And we really felt we had a powerful team to put something together. So we actually put this job there together in eight weeks. It was such a whirlwinds. And, yeah, we just went for it. And, you know, it's amazing what you can do when you have a a group of of powerful people around you that, are motivating and encouraging each other throughout the process and allowing each other to make mistakes, you know, and knowing that you're still appreciated and valued in that circle. And so that's really how how it came to be, but our our long term goal with be the change is to actually enact policy legislation with, the alcohol industry and getting companies to really commit to zero tolerance policies and diversity inclusion initiatives and training in their businesses. And so that's really what we're our our three year goal is with the with the initiative. But we will be doing actually a larger version of be the change job fair on March twenty fifth, which would follow our virtual wonder woman of wine conference on March twenty third and twenty fourth of this year. That's gonna be such a positive thing for the industry, not not just the the job fair and what that represents for people, like you say, especially right now, but also that long term goal of making concrete changes in what's happening in the industry is just so fantastic. And exactly what I think everyone is is hoping can happen. And obviously to do that, one of the things that you've been doing, is you have a gender equality survey. So I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about, what kind of data you managed to get from your twenty twenty gender equality survey. Did it tell a particular story? It did. So, I will start by saying that, yes, we it was really insightful. You know, we we had about, I think, five hundred and fifty people participate. So it wasn't quite as, you know, we didn't have as large of a a candidate pool as we would have liked to get, you know, kind of more accurate, understanding of where gender equality is, you know, where we are measuring up right now in the wine industry. But we had, yeah, five hundred and fifty four respondents, eighty seven percent of them were female. So we definitely just we got a little bit more insight, especially on how women perceive, you know, the state of equality to be in the industry, and that really breaks down to, you know, some of the questions that we were focusing on were topics that were related to topics that we were going to cover at our conference. And so we really wanted to know, did women feel comfortable negotiating? Did they understand their room for or are there a path to success and to promotion within the wine industry? And, we we we notice that, there are large differences between men and women and regarding understanding, you know, opportunities to increase their income and negotiation, a lot of the male respondents said that they understood how to increase their income and felt comfortable negotiating, whereas, you know, a lot of women didn't. And, you know, like, as comparison to sixty four percent of men so that they felt comfortable negotiating and and understood that and and respectively thirty one percent of women, felt that way. So it was definitely a big gap, but also solidified, I think, what we kind of presumed to be true. You know, career advancement was another thing that we talked about if people felt like it was merit based, relationship based, which is so interesting to me because know, we we put a lot of emphasis on testing here in the US and, you know, saying that you have to have this certification to get this job. But really, when it comes down to it, a lot of people feel like know, it's, you know, it's relationship based. Seventy three percent of of our respondents felt that way. And so we know that, that's what I was saying about the the relationship with those master's families earlier that it is about who you know, and who you have access to to knowing in the industry. And so we're really trying to, make sure that we can, as part of our mission, expanding our network, expanding the network of women in the industry so that do know the right people that we can really advocate for them to become leaders. And, yeah, I mean, there there were several different topics, but those to me were the standouts for sure. Yeah. It sounds like it's gonna be a really powerful tool going forward. Not just for kind of honing your own work with with wow, with be the change, but also for the industry as a whole to just kind of reflect on on maybe where things need to be changed and and how people and genders and see things differently that, you know, see the same industry from a completely different perspective, and you're gonna have the numbers to demonstrate that. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's actually another part of be the change as well. As as I mentioned, Leah has Leah Jones an organization called diversity and wine and spirits. And so one of the ways that we, you know, one of the important initiatives for us with putting on the job fair was getting all of the exhibitors who wanted to participate to take a survey about diversity and inclusion and using that data because we we got a lot of the, you know, the top ten largest wine companies in the US to be exhibitors, and we that was very intentional because we wanted to get data from them to build a benchmark report about the where diversity and inclusion stand in our industry currently and use that as a tool to, have companies sort of measure up and see where they stand according to our standards and then use that as also as a way to help consults for their companies and get them closer to, you know, the industry standards of what diversity and inclusion should look like. And so they're we we also have that benchmark report coming out soon as well. That's really exciting. So as well as all of this amazing work that you're already doing, you do a lot of other things, of course, in your in your wine life. And you have a wine club. How how do you manage to fit this in and and what is it? And how do we join? So I actually have, yes. So I have, like, a couple wine clubs happening in my mind. So, Wonder Woman of wine, launched a wine club in October. Yes. October was our first month. And no. I'm sorry. September was our first month. Wow time flies. So this was, something that we launched in collaboration with a an e commerce platform that focuses on natural wine here in the United States called Mesa. And, I had met the owner of Mesa Holly Barrigan. Actually, last year, sometime, she was supposed to come to our conference and then was going to come to this twenty twenty conference, but got stuck in she was traveling in Spain at the time that COVID hit and so got stuck there for a while and couldn't make it back to the States. And so we, you know, she'd always prompted me to to do something with her and her company, and I have a big affinity for natural lines as well. So it was really a cool opportunity to collaborate with her. And so we decided that launching a wine club would be a really great way to engage with consumers during this time to put together, you know, curated selection that people could support women winemakers with their dollars. And so the wine club is all focused on natural wines made by women from around the world with these tiered experiences that people could have the option to participate in. So one of them would be a tiered experience, like, level one would be a hosted virtual wine tasting by me where we talk about the bath up each of the producers, we dive into tasting the wines, you know, just talk about the regions and the profiles. And so it was this great opportunity to, like, sort of break up the monotony of quarantine and to give people something to look forward to from a virtual setting. And we included, you know, funds flag, you know, branded women, support women winemakers, bags, and wine keys, and, you know, little extras like that that we also thought would make great gifts as we lead into the holidays. We've done some private tastings, you know, to sort of replace the lack of Christmas parties and bachelorette parties and birthday parties and all these celebrations that we're just so used to to gathering for. So that's been really great. We're actually we did a three month trial run with it. So this is actually our last month for the time being, but people can still order and partake in the December selections by going on to wonder woman of wine dot com, and there's a link there to sign up. I also run a wine club at the restaurant that I, that I manage I I know you asked me how I do at all. I don't know that I can answer that because it's been very much a whirlwind. That's all very fulfilling work. I guess it's that typical thing of if you want something done, you know, ask a busy person if you if you want a a wine club started a restaurant opened. If you want, you know, to overhaul the wine industry and bring a more gender equality and diversity, you know, around here is the person you go to. I well, hopefully not. I'm trying to get better about I've definitely you know, that's something that I I kind of feel it's important to talk about to you because I've been, I've always been like an overachiever and always strived to take on more and take on more. And this year has taught me a lot about, well, I'm still learning about how to manage my time and my tasks because I get so excited about opportunities that people, you know, present me to collaborate. I'm like, oh, wow. I really believe in that. I really wanna do that. Instead of saying, you know what? I believe in that and I wanna support you. What I need to be saying is, like, I can support from, you know, an advisory perspective or supporting by helping promote this initiative. But I need to I do need to learn how to say no sometimes and kind of respect my own time and give myself an opportunity to refresh and renew so that I am fully charged when I'm in my mind since doing something. I do actually wonder if that's also a symptom of how I've often seen that the women in the wine industry, and in many industries feel that they have to do more. They always have to do the next thing. They have to be better in order to be seen, to be recognized. So I wonder if that's also, like, all of us are kind of carrying that around as well and and saying no to things or or maybe using an opportunity in a different way or coming back to an opportunity rather than seizing it is symptomatic of that kind of the industry. I definitely think so. I mean, we always hear that women's, you know, women work ten times harder to get the same amount of respect or recognition. And so I definitely think that's something that we naturally tend to do because we We know we're we're great multitaskers. We tend to put others first. So we often, you know, put others' needs, I think, above our, above our own. And, you know, that's something that I've been learning about on my own self journey of just you know, valuing myself and my time and understanding that rest is as important as work sometimes being able to deliver and put my mind to things that I believe in. I I do need to we all need to take a step back and remember that we need to celebrate ourselves every day and find even just a few minutes to to relax and to do something that is only for us and not for anyone else. So I encourage everyone to to think about what that might be or what that might look like for them, and I am doing trying to do that myself too, but it is it's easier said than done, of course. Yeah. For sure. I think maybe the equivalent of that is just, you know, sitting down with a glass of wine at the end of the day without the emails in front of you and just with the glass of wine. So before you go, I would be remiss of me given that I'm in Monty's spot not to seize upon the opportunity to talk to you about minimal intervention wines because, obviously, he is a biodynamic specialist And you've mentioned several times that, obviously, you love natural wines, organic biodynamic wines. So what's the drawer of minimal intervention wines for you? It's funny. My husband, was working with natural wines before I was, and he used to bring them home and blind takes me on them at the end of the night. And I remember initially, you know, because I was studying at the time for my my master, and he was just curious. He's like, these of wines aren't, you know, testable, but I just wanna hear how you talk about them. And so it was a really great size for me to just kind of go go into tasting without, without any preconceived ideas, or expectations. And I, after time, I really just fell in love with the stories of the winemakers, and it was something like I'd never heard before. Like, the focus on the vineyard and how terroir is expressed the most through natural wines, because of native yeast fermentation and indigenous fermentation. That was, spontaneous fermentation. To me, I never thought about wine in that way. I never thought about, you know, what is lost whenever you spray chemicals on your vines, what what terroir is lost when you dump a bunch of sulfur on right after picking, you know, all of these things that are common practices and and almost considered necessities in certain regions and climates due to the climate in those places, but I had always talked about terroir as just a place? Like, what is the terroir of their own value? What is the terroir of Bordeaux and not understanding how when you're working with so many chemicals and you're adding and you're manipulating and you're measuring all these things in the winery, how that really is doing a disservice to to the fruit and the land. And so to make really great wine, it starts with farming and farming from this holistic and sustainable perspective. And also, I I just think that we as sorry if I'm making an assumption here, but I know that a lot of my friends were millennials and f focus on organics and sort of natural styles of food and products and healthcare products. And all these things, this is such a big part of our generation, and we are no longer brand loyal. We care more about the story behind the product. And I just think that wine is one of those things that we're putting that into our body. And if we have the opportune need to care about those things, why wouldn't we? You know, if we have the luxury to spend on, you know, money on on wine, we should be concerned about where those things are coming from because there's a lot of lack of transparency in wine labeling, in under standing, you know, where wine comes from, what that vineyard looks like, who's making the wine, who's picking the grapes, who's working behind the scenes. And so I really just love the opportunity to tell those stories table side and with my guests. And, yeah, there's a lot of benefits But for me, also just kind of shifting my palate over to drinking natural wine. So there's really no going back. I find a lot more balance, you know, acidity, freshness, lower alcohol levels, just things that I've come to appreciate that, that, yeah, it makes making drinking conventional wine, pretty off putting. I can completely see that. I also I think you brought up this idea of terwar and and what interventional winemaking takes away from the terroir, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. Also, the fact that we've come so far from wine being something that is it's a farm product. It's an agricultural product. And, you know, this is, I think, really important to come back to this. And, like you say, not just to tell the stories, but also to recognize that, yeah, this is this is just fruit. And, you know, but, yeah, like you say, that there's there's so much other stuff that could go into it, but it doesn't necessarily need to. And I completely agree with what you were saying about millennials and this this look for experience and this kind of diving deeper looking a little bit behind the label. On food, online, on lots of things. And I think perhaps reducing our ecological footprint is kind of going hand in hand with moving towards equal opportunities in the industry. I really think these two things are quite culturally tied together and as someone with this kind of anthropological background, I assume you're seeing similar connections in your brain to what's happening. So, Ronnie, thank you so much for talking to me. I'm I could talk all day to you about all sorts of things. Not least the food and wine scene in Austin, which I miss greatly. It's one of like I said, it's one of my favorite cities. So I'm sorry I couldn't be there in person so that we could share a glass of natural wine whilst we did the interview. Before you go, where can people find you and wow online, and where should they be going to to see what you're doing and to see the changes you're making? Yes. Definitely follow us on Instagram at Wonder Women of Wine, and then our website Wonder Woman of dot com as well. We can sign up for our newsletter, so we always keep our followers up to date on upcoming projects and programs. And there's a lot happening that we did we didn't get into today, but we do have a lot of great webinars. One in particular, I'm very proud of is called allies. And we interview, different black women in the wine industry to really amplify their voices and give them a platform to talk about, you know, whatever is of interest or is important to them. So we're doing our next one on Monday, December four teeth with Siobhan Ball. And then, we do weekly from Friday interviews with different women in the industry on Instagram and on our website. And we're planning for our next conference, as I mentioned, March twenty third and twenty fourth. So, everything is on the web site, and we sign up for our newsletter and stay engaged and send me an email if you ever, want to suggest an idea or recommend a person that should be that you think should be interviewed. All of that is on there. So thank you so much. Thank you so much, rania. I will be making sure myself to check out the webinars. I'm already following you guys on Instagram. I think what you're doing is fantastic. I'm sure this won't be the last time the Italian wine podcast speak to you. Not least because I wanna find out about all the projects you've got for yourself and the wonder women of wine in the future. Thank you so much. Thank you. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. 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