Ep. 22 Monty Waldin interviews Ian D'Agata (Vinitaly International Academy 2014-2018) on Sangiovese | Introduction to Aglianico, Glera, and Sangiovese

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. My name is Monte Walden. Today, I'm talking to Ian Agater about Sanjay. Welcome, Ian. Thank you. Nice to be here. It's good to talk about Sanjay. Sanjay is Italy's most widely planted red grape variety? What are its characteristics? It's not just Eliza's most planted red grape variety. It is one of the world's ten most planted grape varieties. It is found everywhere in this country from central to southern Italy. The characteristics are such that it's a late ripening variety. Therefore, cannot be grown in extremely cold places, and that's exactly why we don't have SanJaveza in Freule or in Piedmont, while it's everywhere from Emilia Romania down south. So in Tuscany, in Poulia, and sicilian, Sardinia, The main thing, it's a high acid grape, and the acidity makes a tan and stand out more. A great sangiovese wine is a balancing act whereby you have, dainty, refined, and graceful elements all combining together And therefore, if the wine is not especially fruity and is not especially balanced, it can taste thin tart and tannic, which is a, you know, a rate limiting step for people to appreciate it. But when it's done well and when the wine is balanced, it really is one of the three or four or five greatest red wines in the world. So where are the top places for the Sanjay grape in Italy? I'm not sure if people are gonna like me saying this, but if we're talking about true excellence, there are only two, maybe three, and they are Canti classical and not all of Canti classical, Canti Rufina Emontocino. In these three places, you can make, in my opinion, the world's greatest sangiovese wines, but also some of Italy's and the world's greatest red wines, Sangiovese will adapt and will grow in many other places, but the wines are never as magnificent. They may be great wines, but are not truly, truly outstanding as they are in these other three areas. So let's look at Canti Classico. First of all, me a brief outline of what is Canti Glassico and what is San Giovanni's role there? Candyi Glassico is a small area located between Florence and the north, or shall we say in the northwest and Sienna in the southeast. It's a high, high altitude area, the Vineier can go as high as five hundred meters or eighteen hundred feet above sea level. It's cold by definition. There will be snow there in January, February. But it is the area of the world where Sanchez gives you the most graceful red wines that are born with this grape of anywhere. So when you say grapes, we mean like, a wine that's not, particularly heavy that's like a good, we say good lunch and wine, a good wine for lunch. These wines are sort of slightly crunchy. What was Ganty classicos' historic role You mentioned Florence and Siena in the Ratoria in those two famous cities. Katy Glassogobi definition is a very good luncheon wine, which is good. It's like a Balicella or, these wines that are lovely to drink with food. However, And this is one of the problems, I think, that Canti Chasico has. People fail to realize how truly great these red wines are. Canti Chasico is when they're well made of some of Italy's longest lived wines. I don't think people even collectors out there realize that are great candy classical from nineteen sixty seven or nineteen sixty two is still today a thing of beauty. These are some of the world's longest lived greatest red wines. They're wines of amazing grace and refinement that will often only have twelve and a half percent alcohol, but are just aging marvelously well. And what's interesting is Kenticolasico is made with Sanchez mainly, but back then in the sixties also had a few white grapes throw in a thrown in. The key thing here for people to realize is that Kenticolasico can give you a great lunch wine of five or six dollars, but a truly great canty classicos are every bit as fantastic and as important as the greatest bordeauxs, the greatest borglos, the greatest borollos, and the greatest naphtha tabernes, and, barossa shirazas are just very different wines. Would you that Canticlassico is one of the world's utmost underrated wines because of its sangiovese component? Yes. In my opinion, if you are talking about a truly great Canticlassico, I think it's one of five or six greatest red wines in the world, and I don't think people have had a chance to really realize the Just just a little bit more detail about the terroir of Canti Classic. You said it was cool, and but Sanjay Bazi needs heat as well. Right? So why did how does what's the equation? I think it's all about balance, and this is why it's so hard. It's very much like pinot noir. It's hard to make a pinot noir that is truly world class. People tend to forget nowadays because we've gotten better at it that even as recently as the nineteen seventies and eighties, there really weren't any great pinot noirs outside of Burgundy, although people like to say there were, it's just not true. A great pinot noirs outside of Burgundy are really a thing of the last fifteen years. Years. We now have truly outstanding pinot noirs in, the Wild Lamet Valley, for example, Oregon and Central Liltago and other places in New Zealand, believe it or not even in Ontario and the, Niagara region. But that is only because men and women everywhere have mass stirred the grape. And it's true that San Juvez is not there yet, and that's for a variety of reasons because, we haven't studied San Juvez as much. You need to realize that San Jose really began being studied in Italy only in in in two thousand. It began first university studies began in the, nineteen sixties, but really, a full blown effort was made in the late nineteen hundreds, early two thousands. So we really don't know much about SanJervais. Certainly, we know less than than we did with Piedle Mar, such still a learning curve, still a learning process. And with time, I have no doubt we will be making good sangiovese's elsewhere. But like the greatest Bergen like the greatest Piedle Mars are still today made in Burgundy. It will always be that the great Center who's the wines are made in Canticlassical and in, Monticino especially. So the Canticlassico region is between you said between Florence and Sienna. That's quite a hilly wooded area, right? It's it is influenced by the sea, but not really directly. You got the mountains. What effect does that have on the ripening? Does it ripen descent your busy ripen quickly there? Or slowly, what effect does that have on the aromas, the texture, the tannin? Well, no. Actually, again, to get a great red wine, you need a long hang time, and you need to have, but it's a bit more complicated on that. Of course. I'm simplifying. But clearly in Kente classical, you're not gonna be picking grapes in August. And if you do, it must be a very hot year, like two thousand and three, or you don't know what you're doing. It's also a matter of the Viticulture. But essentially, these grapes are gonna be picked in October in the old days. It used to be November. What you when is that what ends up happening is the wines are, going to be marked by a remarkable acidity, but have enough fruit and enough structure to make that acidity balanced. And therefore, what you have is a very graceful mid weight wine which is characterized by penetrating aromas of, sour cherries, red currants, violets, tea leaf, and licorice. As the wine will age, you'll pick up notes of under brush and tobacco, and it really is a very complex, very magical wine at that with lovely, lovely acidity. So Canti classical Canti roofina, SanJueza wines from this area, the ultimate food wines. So what is the name? Where does SanJueza get its name from? Many, many, many theories, and nobody really knows for sure because of the mythical and the religious connotations of wine. People, I believe San Juueza comes from the work of blood of Jupiter, which is, in in Latin. Other people has have to do with its, origin at the top of the hills, the, but, they called saints into the equation, but we don't really have a real, real origin of the name. In fact, some people believe that the real name of San Jose is San Joseo, but not everybody agrees with that either. So it's up up in the air right now. You mentioned that San Giovanni is also known as Brunoo when it's grown in the town or around the town of Montalcino, just to the south of the Kianti Galasico region. Can you explain a little about San Giovanni's role in the famous Brunalcino is really the up- is the opposite, but it's a different expression of San Giovanni, and this is why it's so interesting. Quinti class a who gives you the graceful, and I'm generalizing again the graceful and more elegant version. Montecino gives you a much more powerful wine. Again, that's very different because Montcino is a hill with different exposures, so it's going to be different montalcino type of wines. The sangiovese in the Montalcino area, there apparently was a certain, a biotype, a type of, sangiovese that looked brown, identified by the bien de santi family. That because of this brownish rusty coloration, was called Brunelo from the Italian word, Bruno, which means brown. It's very complicated because in reality, Montalcino, you have many, many different types of SanJoviza growing like everywhere else in Italy. And we know for a fact now that fact, there were even Chilajolo grapevines all over Montalcino, what people used to call bruno Lone because the ending in Italian means a bigger or or fatso. And Chilajolo, if anybody's seen it, the name of grape comes from the word chileja, which means cherry because the berries are very large and plump. So in fact, there were different types of sangiovese in Montalcino. I think everybody's used to the fact that it was one type of sangiovese inherently linked to Montalcino. That that is partly true for sure, but there were other types of sangiovese out there. They're just naturally adaptive to what is a warmer, in general area that gives you slightly larger scale, broader, richer, more luscious wines. So when you say Montecian, it's a little bit more warmer climatically compared to Canti Classic. Is that because it's nearer the or is it because it's more open, or is it because it's protected by the MA Arta mountain? But what's going on there? I think here, in this case, it should be me asking you since, since you're a recognized world expert on Montocino wines. But to make it very simple, Montocino is a hill, reaches its point that about five hundred and sixty one meters above sea level, the northern exposure, or the northern side of this hill gives you wines that are in some ways remarkably similar to Canticlasicles, but are always bigger and structured. The southern side is fascinating, I think. And it really has to be and about four different areas. We usually talk about two areas that are linked to two main towns. One being Castelnuo de La Batte, which is in the southeast side. Another one is Santanjo in Colle and a little bit to South, Santanjo Scalo, and, these are areas where you do have, especially the southwestern side. You do have the influence of the sea breezes coming from the sea coast, from the thiranian coast, which really is only about an hour and a half away by car. And so those wines are gonna be much richer, much more luscious, higher in alcohol, saltier and saline. And then you have places like that I love, an area even more to the west, called Camiliano, and there, those wines are downright savory and saline because they've got these marine winds coming in. In between the area of Casomodalabate and in the Santangelo area. You have another area called Sesta, which is Yeah. I love Sesta. I like it's honestly I shouldn't say this, but it's my favorite area for Guatachi. Everybody talks about the northern side and Montposal and things like that, but I love Sesta. And Sesta is a very complicated area because I think you can actually break down SES and at least three different areas. And there's this fantastic one. I'm a very good producer. So many burgundy there, like, every five meters of soil changes, and I'm totally with you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. My dream is to own all that piece of land in Sesta. Yeah. Okay. Well, there's one for sale of it. We we will do that another day. Okay. Let's move out of Montancino, which is probably Italy's most expensive wine. Let's go a little bit further to the north to the Romania region. Tell me about San Giovanni, San Giovanni, San Giovanni wine from the area of Romania. What's that all about? Well, there are some people who believe that San Giovanni actually originated in Romania. So in reality, everybody talks about the superiority of Tuskansangea. But in fact, Emilia Romagna is today viewed as a source of I hate to say cheap, but everyday quaffing red wines. Let me be ungenerous, because I think that, there are some potentially great, Romagna Sangevese. Again, it's a little bit with Ayanyiko, for example. I don't think the producers are quite at the same, capacity level as in Montecino. And so that's, that's not to be offensive. It's just that Montalcino, they've been making lines, with economic means for for a long time. Meaning they get paid much more than someone in in Romania is gonna get paid for his Sanju. Here's or her Sanjuveza. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. You're ten times more. Yeah. Yeah. You need to realize that makes a big because if you're in a state getting ten times more, you're gonna have more money to invest. Yeah. Because the work is just the same, right, pruning it'll also look off the same. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And it's a shame, but that's you have to take that into consideration. Sanjuiza Romagna, in my experience, are a little bit dark and a little bit more, oki, but that may be just a function of the winemaking. Having said that, and I think this is important. There are some biotypes what people usually refer to as Clones of Sangevese, that are exceptionally high quality. I'm thinking of something called Predapio, which actually has planted in Tuscany. So I'm not sure that you can say that, emilia Romagna clones are and we say in Romania, we really are referring to Romania, the eastern part of of the region. I think there's some very good sangiovese there. I just don't know that the bruisers have yet gotten their act together fully, but the potential is really good. And I think there are some great wines there. Okay. Final question. We're going to go and have some lunch. We're going to have a glass of sangiovese. What are we going to eat with it? What's a perfect match? Well, we're going to eat with it. I'm gonna surprise you because I probably take a Cantier roofiness with me, which is the highest of all the candies. It's, very high acid and very floral and fresh. I think, you know, anything that has to do with, a classic sandwich and candies were made to have with sandwiches, But, actually, it's, it's a perfect steak wine. You know, I mean, if you have a grilled steak and a kente classical, it just works very, very well. It's easy. It's simple. But, you know, having said that, Kente classical, Lake Alicella is a wine that, like Nabeolo, just a great everyday table wine. You just have everything with it from soups, a nice hearty bean soup, a stew. It just works very well. The highest city, and it just cleanses through. There's lots of flavor. I love the minerality of the wines, and they really blend well with a lot of meat dishes and dutch It's funny you mentioned, Rufu, you know, that's the coolest part of the Kianti zone, which as you said earlier on is the coolest kind of part part of Tuscany effectively for the Sanjuvezi grape. Do you think Sanjuvezi is one of these grapes like Pinanoa that to get the best out of it needs to be living absolutely on the edge? Totally. I I really believe that. And in fact, even in the roofing area, there's differences in the roofing area. If you go down south or on the town, El logo, you have much richer, bigger wines that are actually similar to the Montalcino wines. If you go up north towards a town called DEComano, it's really like mountain vertical And those wines taste like Piedo noir. Now if I didn't have so much trust to my fellow producers, I swear they're dumping Piedo noir in those vats because it's remarkable. The wine reminds you of Piedo noir. But it's it's fantastic wine. It's graceful. It's light. It's beautiful and very perfumed. And I think that people there's only about twenty five producers of Canti Arufina. So that's the wine that I really would recommend people trying. Like, like, the candy classic goes in like the Brownamotto Chinos. There's some of Italy's greatest, greatest, greatest, greatest red wines, and I think people just have to get to to know them by trying them and trying them, and finally the producers they like. Ian, thanks very much for explaining the intricacies of Italy's most planted grape, the San Giovanni, and hopefully talk to you again soon. Always a pleasure, and I'm ready to go when you are. Follow us at Italian wine podcast on Facebook.