Ep. 127 Monty Waldin interviews Marco Massarotto (La Via del Sake) | Italian Wine Personalities

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with a twist today because we're gonna be talking about sake. We're gonna be talking to Marco Masarroto, whose company is called La Via Del Sace, which is the Saki road, I guess. Alright? The way of is a gentleman's most way though concept. Okay. So how did you get into where are you? Let's start. Where are you from in Italy first of all? And how did you get into sake? And why have you become such a fanatic for sake? And why do you wanna spread the word? Well, I'm originally from Venetos, so close to here, from Vanessa and Vasan de grappa, but mostly I'm from Milano where I live and work. And during my business trips to Japan, thanks to Melinda Joe, which is a very famous soccer journalist based in talk, Kio. I went to a food tasting and found myself in front of a wooden barrel with a square wooden glasses with no idea what was inside. My idea of sake at the time was, like, most of the people that sake is a hot liquor, you drink for digestion, which is almost wrong. And when I saw this, given my Venital roots, I just drank without asking. So I took this square cup and have a seat, have a sip, and then I asked Melinda, what is this? It's so good. It's so fresh for a fruity. And she told me it's sake. And I was like, oh, but sake is a hot liquor. So I had a very I've been frowned by hair, and so we discuss all nights the misconception about sake, how little people know about sake, and imagine that in Milano, the first cuisine eaten by the people after the Italian is Japanese cuisine. And we are the land of wine. So In Belander, which is Italy's almost industrial or business capital. Yep. Six hundred seven hundred Japanese restaurants. Really? Yeah. And not all are run by Japanese but they are Japanese food, and the people doesn't make understand the difference. So what happens usually what happened because now it's getting better is that Italian people were going to dinner at a Japanese restaurant and speaking to a Chinese owner and asking a hot sack after dinner. Nobody anything about that. So they convinced each other that that was the way to drink it. I mean, we can drink hot sack in some conditions, but it's not a liquor. It's not that it's still it's a fermented product. So what is it what is it made from? It's made from rice. So just to finish that the story short, after that, I decided to start my association to share the story, the story of the product, the story of the trade, the story of the craftments of the makers, and the sake made by rice. It's a fermented beverage made with fermented rice. It's a process midway between beer and wine and the finishes with, fifteen degrees, fourteen, fifteen degrees. So it's a by every mean product that should stay standing in the shelf of beer and wine. So fifteen percent alcohol. Yep. Is it are you allowed to dilute it or not? Is that considered very bad etiquette? You mean, as a producer or as a drinker? No. No. No. No. No. No. Delutative with water. Not no way. It would dilute wine. No. No. So the same same thing. Okay. So you made your first trip to Japan when? I'm about ten years ago. Any of you? Do you speak Japanese? I'm starting now. Well, I I started with a business trip as a Western person for a carmaker care. So, you know, not even food related. And, I've all I've always been fond of Japanese culture. So I decided to come back after that and come back after that. And then the La Viea just, like, slipped out of my hands because I started getting tations. I've been awarded by the Japanese Saki Association as a Sak samurai, which is a family name for the Western, but it's a very important recognition for them. And so, now I ended up married a Japanese woman with a Italian Japanese with, business going up and down. So I go now very often, but it all started with glass, basically. Well, it's great that you got that through taste. Yeah. Isn't it? It's about wasn't about the the history or the, weaving the culture is actually something that you tasted that you loved, that you found interesting, and that you've followed. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So overall, we talked about Milan. What what about the sake, scenario in Italy at the moment? Is it growing? Where is it growing and why is it growing? It is growing. It is growing the the sake expert is, is growing. It's very small compared to the National Second production. It's two or three percent. So that is a critical number. Critical because of a second decline in the consumption internally as windy in Italy because of lifestyle change. In Japan into humans. Yeah. In Japan, the second intemacos option declined. And so the numbers have producers declined. And since the export rate is so small, it's a critical issue because it's a survival issue. So Saken needs to be internationalized as a production to be produced elsewhere and as a consumption, first of all. And, so it's growing everywhere. It's growing in Italy after the exports two thousand fifteen has grown very much. Now it is the second market in Europe. So who drink to that? Is it is it young, trendy people that want, are they gonna move on to the next fashion, or is it older connoisseurs, if you like the best, if I just say who drinks it and who likes it, it's a a little bit of of of all the the ones you said. The main distribution channel that leveraged the growth of sake in the past five years has been Japanese restaurants, which started putting equality sake selection in their in their list and selling it. And now the the next step for sake is making it's way into the into the wine world, into the wine and beer world. So wineries, restaurants, sommeliers, and wine experts who wants to widen their lease or their chef to have one more option to pair with food, which is also the the the best the best way to enjoy Zach. Okay. We'll come on to the food in a moment. So for the first time this year, Ven Italy International, which has a blind wine tasting competition called Jinguisterele or Five Star. For the first time, there was a sake category, and you were in charge of that. Yeah. If I was on your panel, what would you say to me before I start tasting? Would you tell me the things to look for in a sake? What should a sake a good sake have in terms of flavor or texture? Well, thanks of all. I wanna thank Stevie for this opportunity. Stevie Kim. Yes. Management ofinity international? For this opportunity for for sake, which was very important. We had a great interest from so many important people in the wine world. It was a real challenge also because this was very quick to set up and we had to fit sake into the wine criteria and somehow for for technical reasons for this, for this first year. But which was fine because we are in Italy. We are in Europe, so we wanna make the port compensated by that those standards. So what we had to do was just small payment, just three people. But what we had to do is we judge the sake visually by the noise and by the palette, which we do all the time. But we didn't do a proper sake form of tasting, which there are. WCT is a great level free SAT form for tasting sake. For education trust. And what we did was creating profiles of sake. And and we divided them by category, and we explained to the table what is the profile of that sake. So this sake is almost all the times, colorless and water white. So if you have it crystal clear, it's fine. If you have some notes, it might depend on that. So if you find a consistent some color notes, it might depends on some permutation styles. So we we explained the profile and so the the judges were able to understand that, that color was deriving from a natural fermentation style, which you find at the palette, and so that made they made sense. Or that color was proof conservation. And as a matter of fact, we had a bad palette experience which never happened. Luckily, but this was the concept. So if you were there, would have lectured you a little bit about the profiles of sake. We hope we can do next year. So, you know, let's just think about making, these orange wines, these are white wines that have skin contact made like red wines. Is that happening with the rice wines as well, the sake wine as well? Is that when you said about the color, you said some wines had a color from No. The color might well, we tend to think the sake is colorless, but I would say the forty percent of the sake or even more has a light color or some colors. Well, light yellow, light green. Yeah. It's light lemon green, pale lemon green, and then he gets up to gold and amber for the age sake. How long do they take? But what a sake that's made to age? How long does it take to develop its color? Because I see wine changes color. I'm sorry if I asked where it depends, but it's the typical answer for sake. It depends because the sake aged five to ten years at minus five the degrees temperature, which don't evolve in color. They're completely colorless, but it is like dried fruit. So the flavor changes rather than the color. Yeah. Exactly. Usually, you call it Koshu, which means age sake after two years in the tank. The first one year in the tank, six months to one year called maturation. It's a standard phase of the production. If it stays in the in the tank two or more years, you are there's no rules for that, but they usually start calling the caution. And after three to five years, it starts evolving in color, and then it gets to amazing colors and amazing flavors. We had at the Milanoaki festival a tasting of the vertical five, ten, twenty, thirty years old sake, which was really unbelievable. But color, just to finish quickly, might depend on the fermentation so if you make a natural lactic acid fermentation or if you make a low rice polishing ratio, so you keep the rice almost integral and unpolished, that would affect her in an important way, the color of sack. The husk around the rice, is that what you're talking about? The husk is gets removed in any case. But then you want Mike from Mainsake so that brings the rice screen to around ninety percent what they call same white polishing ratio. Ninety percent is what is left. You took away just the external ten percent. If you brew sake with that type of rice. So, unpolished, let's say, you would have a socket that might easy turn to a yellow color or a gold color, very rich in umami, what they call the job companies because they have lots of proteins that get converted into amino acids. But if you polish the sake and they manage to polish down to one percent or up to one percent, but it means you a small one percent ball of of starch, nothing s, then you have a completely different fermentation, very slow, very cold, and, very fruity because the the the east gets in a survival limit condition. So it starts developing different alcohols and esters. So we're getting really technical now. Mean, what you're saying? And if if I we didn't know what we were talking about, when I don't know what I'm talking about in the interview, but you do. But the last little bit, I think, well, that he's talking about wine this guy. He's talking about. He's saying all the language of wine you're coming out with. Yeah. Well, I can say those things in Japanese and the sounds familiar, but by it I I as I told you at the beginning, it the fermentation process of sake is a midway between wine and beer. Why midway between wine and beer? Just for the reason that in wine, we ferment fruit in sake, we ferment a cereal rice like in beer. And the difference with beer is that barley molds naturally because of the germ. Well, this is the in sake, the germ is removed. So the scarification, the sugar, comes from parallel fermentation done by a mold called Kosius pergillus, which it's the starch and transforms into sugar. And this happens in the tank together with it. When is there a mold you talk about? Is it a fungi? Yeah. Fungus. Yeah. So rather than a yeast in why we have the yeast? No. No. No. No. Exactly. We have the yeast, but this it's sugar and transforms alcohol and so that's what so it's the fungi that create the sugar from starch. And then the yeast ferment that? It says sugar and transforms into alcohol. So it's a chain. So and and it's called multiple power fermentation. So it's called multiple. Multiple parallel fermentation, the sake fermentation. It's probably the most complex fermentation in alcoholic beverage. I'm just about to say that sounds extreme. Yeah. But what it's done by the Japanese. So, no surprise. You know, and, that they can handle precision. It's very complex because you have to handle the fungus, the algae, not going to fast in producing sugar, and not going to slow. If everything goes very fast, or or or it depends on this fermentation side you want to So the sake that you want all everything to rush the rice to melt, lots of sugar to be produced, and they're, closer fermentation in two or three weeks time. And because you just want to save and make a stable product or or a carton product. So in wine, we have, obviously, you know, could broadly say there are three styles of producers. There are the huge, but, multinational behemoths who just churn it out. You have the tiny artisans with small hectares mainly making for local consumption, either in their family or the local village or town, and then you have kind of pretty much everybody else. Is that the same with Is it something that you can make at home? Yes. And yes. But you find in Zake produces their one thousand three hundred and fifty. Now there used to be a thirty thousand in the seventies. They're only Japan except very few exceptions in the few count but as I told you before, ninety seven percent of the production is for internal consumption. So the old cosmos or world wine, you find it in the micro cartilage in Japan with, half of the production handled by five big producers. And then you have, very small brewers for local consumption. And in the middle, you have crafts or artisan or artist or or or producer to make a exceptional quality sake. You can brew it at home. Yes. And they used to do it a lot until it got prohibited by the load sometime. Just to protect and develop the market. The homebrew sake unfiltered, very cloudy. It's called Dubroku, and, there's a Dubroku festival in Yuata prefecture, which is lots of fun. It's very uncommon by now, but it could be one of the waysaki internationalizes people. Like, the the beer on brewers, that could be the sake on brewers. I don't see that coming yet, but, you know, you never know. So what's the demographic of the people that make it that these does ends? Are they like young eighteen year olds that are full of the joys of sake or they grizzled old men and women that are making sake like their grandparents used to make? It's family based business and it's very generational. So as a often happens in Japan from in industries and in companies, you have the Chacho, the owner of the company, the president that is running it. And until his son is mature enough to handle the business, and until he's he's tired enough to to just pass in a, like, a old wise position. Many brewers now have been taken over by thirty, forty is, younger generation. It's always been like that. So every thirty, forty years, there's a generation change, a debit generation change, brings a change. So this change will probably well, internationalization sometimes happen from the previous generation of hours of the building over sixty, others are doing it now, but also the product might change because, most of the breweries now produce what is called, which is table sake, which is less appreciated by younger generations. Right. Well, because it's more rustic or is it less pure tasting? It's very ricey tasting, very simple, not complex, not fruity, not delicate. So it's a table sake. Our grandfathers used to drink. Well, I like it. I must say sometimes I go to convenient, convenience stores in Japan, and I had a hamburger and food sushi, and it's great. And it's much better than table wine somehow because the the stock is very simple. It's not a low acidity, low fruitiness. So you can make a decent or good product, making a basic product. Which is more difficult for wine. But let's say, let's less competitive product in modern markets. So the new generation tend to evolve to premium sake. So what is the etiquette when you drink sake? Do you just knock it back in one, or do you smell it or sip it very slowly? How how does it work? There's a lot of options about the vessels. You can drink it in, but basically you drink it like wine. You don't drink it all. Not even when it's in the small cups, the or choco. The it's in the small cups because you want to drink a little bit and and so you you sip it a little by little. The Japanese, well, it depends where you are, of course. But, you don't do toes or or shots because you don't do it with wine. It doesn't make any sense. So you drink it, you make it a campite, compights interesting because it's a it's a cheers when you You'd clip the glasses, but they have a completely different attitude in Japan. So usually we rise our glasses. In Japan, you as a sign of respect for your personal the table with you is try to go a little bit below with your glass to the other one and trying to make the person feel more important on the table. So it's it's a opposite game to our rising glasses. But it's not like just a a man thing. This is this is male, female men, women drink as well, whereas more of a man thing? No. No. No. It's drank by a whole generation, then traditional, very traditional contest might have the woman serving sack at the table, but it will be really, really traditional contest that are disappearing quickly. Now the the the woman are They must be very, very fast in Japan and the new governor of Tokyo for the first time. It's a it's a woman politician. So that's really old style. So you think sake could have a have a socio and effect on the social order as well in terms of being one way where I didn't know that some women get I'm not saying equality, but have a is that right or another? Well, Saki is still very traditional. So you might find it. When you say traditional, I mean heritage of Japanese traditional culture. So it might be bringing innovation because it, of renewal, but it might also bring very traditional scheme regarding to gender equality. So it's not difficult to find the image of woman pouring so that might be read as a outside traditional image, but at the same time, it's a it's an icon of Japanese aesthetics. So it's very difficult judge when it comes to Japan for these things. And finally, tasting is more and more evolving with the food matching. We're speaking a little bit before. That's a Japanese proverb, which says on shoe, Japanese sake, never fights with food. And it's so true. The lower c d t, the non existent of tannins and the absence of what we call the fruit and wine makes the sake hidden, you know, a there's another Japanese proverb or a concept that's the it says that the Japanese beauty is a hidden beauty. You have to look for it and now uncover it something. You're saying it's a drink with a very subtle flavor. It's a very subtle flavor. You have to look for it. So if we drink side by side, a glass of sack and a glass of wine. Well, sake has a little hard time because, you know, wine is shiny, gold color, and maybe sparkling and, intense. But when you drink it with food, sake is really surprising. It's a very different journey. So the wine interacts with food by contrast with acidity, with tenants, and, and, it's a, a contrast fight and enrichment of different flavors. Sake works as collaboration, but if you think it's rice, the the relation of rice with food. And so like a cleanse, the sharp aromas of food. So it's great with truffle. It's amazing with cheese. I never think of this as a competition, but I rediscovered cheese and our Italian cheese edition. Thanks to sake. And the only absolute judgment I would feel to say is that probably sake is the best thing you can drink with cheese. Final question. What what is the typical level of a of an everyday sake? So why are we talking anywhere between seven percent and fifteen percent for a normal one. Yeah. Well, sake goes from twelve to sixteen seventeen. Twelve and sixteen seventeen are extremes. So twelve percent sake is a two light sake, and the seventeen is very rare. So usually you have thirteen for fifteen degrees. It's hard to tell the difference because it's hard to feel the alcohol in sake when you drink it compared to wine because of its hidden nature and septum nature. And, so the average would be thirteen to fifteen degrees, that will be most of the sake you would drink it. Marco Maserotto. Absolutely fascinating. I know not the first thing or I didn't until half an hour ago, and the first thing about it. It's a cold war to to discover. That's all. And the similarities with between in wine and the clear differences between the two. So I think next year for the five star, tasting, I might have to switch and come on your journey. You're very aware I come to join. That's what we'd be really happy. You're beautifully roved as well. What is the robe you're wearing? This is called the happy? Just a blue blue robe with, Japanese Cymbals on the on the Yeah. Well, it's definitely single. This is the diagram of sake, and this is the Adrogram of dough, like, the Adagram, the kanji, or the Adagrams of sake. And this is the Adagram of dough, which means the way, like, the aikido or judor. It's a zen concept in in Japan, the dough it means the way where you keep learning and you never and you never stop. So this is the happy, which is the traditional jacket. If you go to the the stands of sake, you see all the producers have it. The producers wear. This is a particularly it's a simple cloth, a simple dress. This is a typically white crafted one. I I asked, but the Masumi brewery, which have an amazing artisan that makes this happy for them to recommend me for having him produce a few for us. And so I bring it at the events because, it it catches the eye and it helps starting the conversation. Yeah. It does. KeshI. And, yeah, conversation with you has been really interesting. I feel like I've just scratched the surface of a whole new world in terms of that's perfect, definition. It's exactly that. That's what happened to me when I had this two hours conversation with Melina and Tokyo ten years ago. And then said, we have to tell this story to the Italian people, but to the European people because it's amazing. It's a full of, interesting things, and it's completely unknown, and it's part of a culture, which we know very well. So there's a lot to say. I'm happy to be here and thanks for having sake. Marco, I sort of, thank very much for coming up on the, sake wine podcast today. Right. Thank you. Yeah. We're good to do some recording on the road, you know, in Japan. Thanks a lot, Marco. Thank you. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.