Ep. 156 Monty Waldin interviews Richard Kershaw MW (Kershaw Wines, South Africa) | Italian Wine Personalities

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monte Walden. My guest today is Richard Curshaw master of wine. What do you do? What's that face with it? I've known it. It's already already generated this. I've known Richard for about how long is it? It's actually probably twenty three years. It feels like a century or something. It does indeed. Yes. I don't know. I'm still friends really, really. No. I didn't know we were. Or even now you passed the master of wine. That was a moment. How much money how many suitcases of of greenbacks cost you to get. I mean, in an enormous amount and given the inflation, yeah, given the Brexit situation, even. Save America, Peru. It was it. It was proven gold generally. Panama. Yeah. I would say. Pretty. So you're obviously quite sharp. Very sharp indeed. That was he One of the sharpest pins. Yeah. Well, in in in in a box with any one pin in. So, you know, that's surprising. Indeed. Yes. Yeah. Anyway, so moving swiftly on, the master wine, when did you become a master wine, Richard? It was back in the two thousand and eleven vintage. Right. And it was actually not at my first attempt, but when we had a little go at it back in the in the days, where it's very British orientated, I didn't get anywhere with it and I decided to cut it all in, throw it all in, and start making wine and then So you're doing you're doing the master of wine in England? Yeah. Didn't work out. Yeah. Got fed up. Yeah. And why did so why did you move to South Africa? Actually part part of the reason I got fed up was that the company I was working for at this particular time had decided that that wasn't Marshall one wasn't summing up on their agenda. They also said you're pretty crappy at your job as well if I remember, but Oh, no. I don't remember that. But, but the main main premise was that to leave it was, I'm not gonna stay around if that's the case. Leave the job, travel the world, spend the money that I don't have on things I don't need, but at least explore the wine regions and make a bit of wine in the meantime, get paid in pesos, which basically are nothing. And, effectively, try and try and get some sort of idea of, becoming a master of wine. That was my first sort of inkling and, and that's what I did until ninety six when I decided to kind of jack it in and, start to actually concentrate more of a winemaking career. So you felt that she being a winemaker would help you pass part of the exam, basically. Actually, I did. Yes. I felt during the study time when I was researching my first dissertation that traveling between the various, wine regions of the world, I felt an active and deeper knowledge of wine making was essential. Otherwise, you were just merely, sort of peripheral player, or you were never really gonna get to the nuts and bolts, especially given the fact that the complexity of wine isn't just in sort of quality wine regions it's throughout all one regions. Did you manage to spend any time in Italy or was that off the radar at the time? At the time, it was a little off the radar. Was that language language barrier? Well, I sent time in Portugal, although there's a lot of, English, gentry there. And, certainly, it was when we were there. And then It's disgusting, mate. It's full of English gentry. Well, that's true. I should have maybe come, maybe I should have known. But, no, actually, at the time, it was mostly sort of Spain, Portugal and and North America, as well as parts of France. Okay. So Italy wasn't really on the radar. Unfortunately, not. No. So you moved so you know you're in elgin. Where is that in South Africa making wine? Well, about an hour an hour east of Cape Town or east east southeast of Cape Town or the most? It's right on the coast. Yeah. We're we're about eleven kilometers from the sea. And, we're surrounded by mountains. So eleven kilometers up a hill and then down the hill. And, one of the the coolest climate in South Africa. So interesting area for Why is it so cool? Largely largely it's to well, altitude is partly to partly responsible. It says it's a little bit higher than most. Three to five hundred and fifty six hundred meters. It's quite high, isn't it? Yeah. Relatively so. And, obviously, proximity to sea, also mostly because we get a lot of rainfall due to our mountain. We're surrounded by mountains. It's a little bit rain trap and a cloud map trap. So a lot less UV light radiation and and so on and so forth, which gives us a little bit less, well, longer time to ripen our grapes and therefore more challenging for certain varieties. And urugate then if it's rainy, Well, actually during looking at all the analysis and we could get very geeky here, but the actual seasonal Oh, we got you on the show. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. For the for the simple thing is that the the actual rainfall is such that we get enough rainfall and we get lessees on evaporation due to slightly higher humidity or, oh, vapor pressure deficit figures to get more precise. They actually we shouldn't need to actually irrigate at all. And in many cases, we don't. However, due to the fact that the the the farmers that planted the Veneos in the first place, were apple derived because all the farmers, in elgin originally were apple farmers. They tended to go for irrigation simply because apples need irrigation, so they assumed they would. Right. But a number of times, we don't use actually any irrigation water. So if you're saying it's up, it's obviously a South Africa pretty hot place, but you're in a cool climate in a hot area, a hot place essentially. What is the scope there in your particular region for Italian wine varietals do you think? Or do you have to move further inland to the warmer climbs? I think certain varieties could could work extremely well. And in our in our little region, which it is little, only eight hundred hectares planted. Tanya. There is a little bit of Nebula planted as certain in in in regards to Italy and Nabilel is also seen in in Constantia as a variety that's worked quite well, for example, with Steenburg. So where's some Constantia? That's towards, the Southern Peninsula, so south of Cape Town by about half an hour. That much warmer there then or not? It's it's a coolish climate, but it's a warmer, it's warmer than Algin. What are the nebbiolos like that? They sort of aromatic? Are they Italianized or are they new, wealthy? Or how would you describe them? At this point, I would say my my problem with a lot of the nebulas is they're slightly more modernized, clearly because of the of the market they're selling them to. There are they do get the aromaticity which is great and but they don't quite get the fullness of tannins and the density, but there is some good tannin dense in some of the wines. So you can see there's clearly a a possibility and obviously clearly with older vines and maybe other areas, maybe elgin could work. We certainly get a lot of cloud cover in elgin and and we get a lot of mis and maybe who knows that could have a tie What about what about the Swartland, which is a kind of hot, in both sense. It's trendy, very trendy area. A lot of old vines, bush vines. And when you go to that, so and and shisty soil, when you go there, you kind of do think reminds you of Southern Italy, very arreared place. Do you think there's scope there for, southern Italian varieties, I say like primativo or Aglianico or things like that? I think, personally, Primativo or or Zinfandel, and certainly Aglianico could work extremely well. At the moment, there's a huge focus clearly on the Spanish style. It's more Vedra's grenache or Ganacho and, there's a leaning towards that simply because of the heat, I suppose the dryness, the lack of humidity and lack of rainfall. So at this point, there's nothing really more Italianized. And, and, and to be fair, a lot of that is derived from vines that are old. So so at this point, there isn't hasn't been a lot of old Italian varietals planted to to give them. Oh, all the varietals planted that have age. So how easy if if I'm a, you know, if I'm a white, well, you're a wine maker and you want to import some cuttings of, for example, so I mean, any Sanjay, for example, how easy is it to get those into South Africa, obeying all the regulations that you would need to export from Italy and to import in South Africa? It's about a five year quarantine period. Really? So, actually, well, from start to finish as as as getting it and then and then actually planting it. Have you tried? I haven't tried, but I do know this in actually more in relation to clones for pinot noir. Right. That's that's been a more that it's roughly roughly the sort of lead time. But it's very possible and they're very much open to it. What is interesting though is that actually of the hundred and fifty two authorized varieties in South Africa, there is actually only ninety four planted. So clearly, there are a lot of varieties that are available but just aren't being planted. Right. So when you say availability, you mean that cuttings are in their cuttings legally. They're they're legally. Yeah. They're legally there. They're legally available just that people haven't picked them up. So if you look at Italian varieties, I know Vermentino, for example, I don't think it's been planted particularly at all. I know there's I think Vadetio, some of the other more white some of the white Italian varieties. I'm not quite sure on the on the reds, but I'm sure there are a number of varieties that are, well, clearly there are a number. There's I mean, that's a third of the entire amount, unplanted. My in terms of Italian culture in, I know, say, for example, Cape Town, are there little Italian areas there or Spanish areas, or is it very kind of just South African and international? How does it work? It's Greek. There's a lot of Greek areas. Actually, in fairness, they're are definitely Italian pockets and there are definite wanderies which have Italian influences because obviously on the other side, I mean, I'm not just talking about grapes olives in particular. There's a large amount of olives planting and there's a large amount of Italian influence. Morganster, there's Costa, idiom, is has a lot of Italian influence. So who are they? They they olive oil olive oil producers or and or they've started up a winery on the back of that from that primary industry and others are just basically interested in Italian branches. There isn't a definite, you know, that Italian have tended to be good emigres. So we see them. We do see them in, in the cape, as we do in Joburg. But no, there's definitely interest. I think possibly the the issue that South Africa struggles with a little is is identification of where its regions can produce the best grape varieties and that lack of, focus has has often meant that the international grape varieties have come first and from that, and now or rather right now is there is a definite upswing in trying to plant some of the more esoteric esoteric grape varieties or even just less known. I mean, some of them aren't that esoteric at all. They just need to be be they need a wider audience. But unfortunately, you've got a a local market that clearly needs to be tapped into to generate that wider performance Beena Gridio has a good example as a, you know, widely, clearly, widely planted grape varieties done extremely well in in other areas outside of Italy. But you struggle to find it in South Africa and it could easily be, a perfect foil for grape many variety great many dishes, but importantly could be a difference to, say, henne Blanc and Sabignon, which is almost ubiquitous in its shelf space in in in all of South Africa. And what about exports of, South African wine in general? What are the main markets? See where the market is going. What's so what, you know, the potential competition for Italian mining in other markets? Well, I mean, in terms of Africa, their main market's always been the UK, possibly because their tie in Holland because of the Dutch connection. The American market has been tapped tapped into to an extent or try to be tapped into time and time again with little or no success. But Why not? Why do why does it sort of gone? I think generally, financial issues just the cost of actually trying to get into the market. Okay. Whereas it's not funded. The government is anti alcohol and tries it with its every way, especially because it's, that there's perceived white monopolist, white capitalists sort of running the farms that there's always been an issue with that. And also there is there are issues with consumption as in poor people who have a dependency and There there's an extent. Yes, to an extent, but but a much lesser extent, I would say. But the thing is that America has started to change and I think also one has to remember that in America, there has been a a general change for sort of east or west coast as as that market itself has also started to become more open minded about a imported wines and b South African wines. I know it sounds ridiculous geography plays a huge part. I think Australia is so far away. Well, yeah. I mean, we talk about Australia being quite an exciting country when it arrived in the England because it was literally on the other side of the world. For America, South Africa is really on the other side of the world. It's a difficult place to get to. So in a way, I think geography does play a part. Europe's a lot easier to get to even though it's, you know, it's in the time time zone. So I think that's where the market has tended to concentrate. Although of late, there has been definite movement in the Chinese market and interestingly more recently Japan. Okay. So you are a master wine. Yes. When did you pass? Two thousand eleven. And you are, sort of, on the education committee and all the rest of it. Yeah. You're quite a I have an active. Yeah. I have an active role as well. From Raj, a big cheese in the master wine. When students are studying, it's only one who's often seen this very complicated with all these ridiculous amount of native grape varieties with complicated names and synonyms and all the rest of it. How what is the approach of the institute to teaching about Italian wine? Well, actually, I think the initial approach is, of course, the institute is not a teaching establishment. It's an establishment in which you, as the student, should be coming in fully knowledge, fully armed with your knowledge from your diploma or equivalent top. So all the geeky stuff, like, you know, the the the maximum amount, minimum amount of Sanjuvising County classic. Should have all that knowledge already under your belt? The basics. I think the essential teaching, though, is that from a master wine perspective, you are an increasingly because of the the the homogeneity that's sort of been created over the last twenty years. There is a tendency to focus on the classics sort of sangiovese, nebbielliellianic or things like that. Absolutely. And and sort of areas where where there is a perceived difference because tasting blind is often more challenging when when you when you've got sort of grape varieties that taste very similar to each other. However, if there are a lot of the papers more recently in terms of practical, have focused, So when you say the right? This is a blind testing exam. Sorry. Yes. It's a blind testing exam. Three parts to it. There's three parts, twelve lines in each part. And they are. Twelve paper. Sorry. The first paper, twelve lines of white. Second is a red paper, and the third is essentially a mixed paper. In the past, it was often a fortified sparkling rose clean up for the mixed for the mixed paper. Now it can be almost anything you want. We've had an all red paper, which has been challenging for those students who have religiously studied for fortified and sparkling, but, it changes every year. But in terms of the the main papers, the wines from from Italy would be Classic would they? Like a suave or Yeah. You're you're going to look in terms of white wines, red wines. Yes. Absolutely. You're you're gonna be suave. You're gonna be in, the Piedmont area. You're gonna be in, Tuscany. And you're gonna be asked to know those sorts of areas and different shapes between your chiantes and your brunellos and what's the typical question? And do you have four? Just say there's four reds, and they say, of these four reds, they're all the same variety. How does it work? Give us give us a typical question. Just imagine they say four four Sanjuveza, what would the what would the question be? How would it be four? Well, actually the thing is that? Sorry. What I was really gonna was it? What is it? I get fine every time I interrupt people don't have to pay attention. It's something like that. Yeah. It's a thousand euros in this. Yeah. Actually, the the the thing is that the the questions are very different now because, when when we first had a go at this back in the you would get sort of four varieties or or you would more more likely get four wines, which are all from Italy, and you would then be there asked to differentiate between what you thought they were. So these these four wines are all from one country, namely country, give you reasons why and what are what are the And as and as diligent students, we would immediately pick up the Barolla without any problem. The Kianti with a little bit more problems, but probably pick it up, and we'd probably pick up whatever, maybe, a Southern Italian wine, and then we'd maybe struggle with, sort of, rather, international, Bulvaney merlot wine. And but we'd go there because that would be our sort of our ringer for the for the four. Now there's a little bit more accent on maybe showing four four wines from Pierremont and focusing more on the vintages. Right. And more importantly, that the the question that might arise is that you might get more unusual grip. So in fact, you wouldn't get a lineup, so for Italians, you might get lineup of two wines, say, from, Nirello Mascores or something like that, where you are asked really where do they fit in the market? What's the commercial appeal? Right. Where do you where what sort of, outlets they would be sold in? So in a in a way, more generalized outlook. And your job would be then to describe the style and all the other characteristics because even if you didn't get it as a sort of a sicilian wine, at least you were pretty close to what it was because that that makes it because there are a number of, you know, you could a number of wines from from those sorts of areas. That's right. I've just given you Nadalajaleza in the lot what market, would that be going into? Give give give me your reasons why three reasons on the spot off you go, bam. That clearly a nice sort of, you know, aromatic volcanic soil variety that produces some, you know, nice gritty tannins that in a market such as, a developed market, mature market where they're interested. The young millennials are interested in perhaps not with any word or lashings of oak, something that's a available at a reasonable price at a wine bar, say, in London or New York that would be absolutely up their streets, something to go with a nice sort of interesting, soft curry, something that, you know, something like that. That that would be my kind of that's what that's where I'd be fitting in. And it's interesting, and affordable. I think, you know, one has to remember. One of the challenges of the modern wine world is that, you know, twenty years ago or thirty years ago, we could still afford first growth. Now they are just distant thoughts. And and if we do we do we really want try, you know, what can become slightly ubiquitous in Bordeaux with with with various techniques to make similar homogenized wines. So actually in a way, the younger generation is clamoring for these volcanic styles and different styles from from areas like Aetna or wherever that I think are very affordable and and interesting. Do you think, I mean, italian one is, you know, Italian it has about, you know, seventy five thousand different denominations and billions of native grape varieties. Is it when you open the sort of study book a master or anything, oh, I just can't do this. It's just it's just a book. That's just one country. I'm actually well, I think actually, well again, sorry. Going back to my early point, there isn't a study book at all. Oh, I know. Because one is supposed to know. But when you open the diploma study book, the you know, the indigenous arties take more and more space. And clearly, the master of wine program is is very much a snapshot in time. You are going to be judged doing the exam on the wines that are in current vote. So again, when we had a go twenty years ago, Bulgaria's actually had a point part to play. So we tended to know our plovdivs and and so on and so forth. Now that's not actually something that's that relevant. However, we we all know our Aetna wines now far better than we ever used to, but we will we will delve further into the sort of outer reaches of Puglia and probably unearth new varieties that or not new, but indigenous varieties that had no real, interest and now start to become interesting. Santorini, you know, in Greece, started to become an interesting, you know, sat you know, everybody's planting a certificate we have actually in in in in South Africa. I think the the future is is is of anything like a study group is is to be up and current with the education program and show the wines that are relevant to to the audience because that's really where your mastery in wine is gonna come out of. Rather than sort of stick to the to to the to the the the the stodgy. However, having said that, the classics are still there and we still do pay a huge amount of wine for burgundy and so on, so forth, which we still clearly, you do need to know. Even if we have to take a second more time. So how do you think the most expensive, like, the the bureaus and the brunelos stack up internationally? Is it as not as a master wine, but it's just as a as a wine drinker. So As a wine drinker, and bearing in mind, I live, I live on the other side of the world. So technically, it's harder to get these wines. I have a stash wines more than any other region. Oh, now you're running out of tape. You know, we've got like two minutes they're gone. Well, I I have a stash full of of wines. I think mow mostly because I still think the value of those wines are still remarkably good. What's in the cupboard, go on, tell us. What's in the cupboard? Okay. Well, okay. The classic, a lot of Piedmont wines to be fair with you Such as. As such as the guys and the account older containers and, San Jones and, I know, and a little bit modern, for those but, yeah, and then, bit of scavino here and there and whatever, and so on and so forth. And then, Anything from Southern Italy? Are you northern Italian Snow? It's actually I don't know. The only bird if it's from Piedmonto. No. Actually, I got a lot of brunellos and now and now you're gonna ask me, I remember the names. That's good. Actually, quite a few, but they're expensive as you know. And then actually quite a quite a few wines from, you know, Italy as well. Sorry, Sicily as well. You quite like City, don't you? I do. I have mentioned eighty five times. Volcanic. Sorry. Yes. I know. I will immediately desist. That's become bright really on trend, isn't it the volcanic thing? I think so. Yeah. I think I think you you could argue that New Zealand never really pushed it, but they always have volcanic soils for their sonya that made them so eminently drinkable. We'll cut that bit out. Yeah. Sorry, Keith. So I don't even know any soon. Yeah. It's another Kiwi podcast, you know, buddy Kiwis get her anyway. Have we missed anything? I think, yeah, obviously, we're not on radio, so we can't yarn about how you're attracted by. No. We don't. No. But also, we would get taken to court many of the stories that we we we would tell. So we really don't want them. I'd have really particularly good lawyer. I'm sure you do earning millions in Elgin. And Richard Curshaw, master of wine, and Pawn vivant, Pawn vivert with his stash of brunello in his cover that he just had to let everybody know about. Great to see you after so many years. Congratulations again on going master wine. You are a very enthusiastic chap and just to kind of person that the master wine need, some of those stuffy crusty, very aged old Fogies that used to run it, and you're not one of those. And you don't cut that out, please, Julia. Keep it in. It's great to see the people like you coming through and your enthusiasm and willingness to share your knowledge. You're very deep knowledge with the students. Well done. Thanks, Ricky. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.