Ep. 26 Monty Waldin interviews legendary wine expert Steven Spurrier | Italian Wine Personalities

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This is the Italian wine podcast. My name is Monty Walden. Today's guest is Stephen Spirier, the wine trade's quintessential Englishman. Stephen is known as much for the quality of his tailored suits as for his phenomenal ability to taste and judge wines. Stephen, how did your career in the wine trade begin and how long ago was that? My career in the wine trade began in, February or March nineteen sixty four when I joined Christopher's, of, German street, Nelson Jameses, and they maintained they were the oldest wine merchant in England because they said their records had been destroyed in the great fire of London. Now, you could have gone to Cambridge University, Why did you choose wine? Well, I went to the LSE, so I did go to university. Oh, London's good economics. I was at a school called rugby rugby school, and, I found it very boring. And I knew that it would be the same cap and gown and saluting the masters if I went to Cambridge, and I couldn't take any more of that. And I wanted to go to London and grow up. So, I told my father I was not taking up my place at Cambridge, and I wanted to go to London. And he said, you you gotta go to university. I said, sure. I don't mind. You'll go to university. So he suggested the LSE with his tongue in cheek because he knew I was bad at maths. So I went to the LSE, and I had a great time in London. So how did you get into the wine trade after university studies? Well, I joined the London the London School of Economics wine Club. I read about wine. Alexis Shee in Andreimo, and there was some rather fanciful English wine books with titles like the wayward tendrils of the vine. And I just knew that after the LSC, the wine trade was what I wish to do, and I have to admit I had private private means. So I was in a position to choose my profession rather than have to have it chosen for me. So you moved to Paris. Well, no, I joined. I was for three years in the London wine trade. And then I bought a property with a big ruin on it in provence. I was pre Peter Mail, and my wife and I, the day we got married, thirty first of January, in nineteen sixty eight, we left on the golden arrow and became residents of France. And so we lived in provence on our property trying to rebuild the prop rebuild the ruin for about three years, and that didn't really work out the way we'd hoped. And so I said to my wife, well, we'll go back to we'll go to Paris and I'll go back into the wine trade. And so we got to Paris, but there was no wine trade in the structured way there was in London. I don't know why I thought there might be, but there certainly wasn't. And so walking up a little, street one day on the way to lunch, with a friend of mine, we passed a wine shop. And I said, that's my dream to buy a little wine shop like that. And he dragged me into the shop, and I looked at the shelves. And the owner of the shop, a nice lady said, may I sell you something? And my friend said, yes. Your shop. My friend would like to buy your shot. So that's how it all began. As simple as that. Yes. But what was wonderful about it is that the owner of the shop, husband had died two or three years previously, and he'd been a very good car of yeast, as we were called. Well, as French wine merchant shop owners were called. Although the shop had been on the market for a year or two, she wasn't convinced that a young Englishman could really follow the the reputation of her of her late husband, and so she hesitated in selling me the shop, even though we'd gone through all the numbers. And I said, well, look, Mara and Forcher, our work for you for free for six months. And then after six months, if you find, I can honor the memory of your husband you concerned with the shop, which was brilliant, because during those six months, I, a, learned a lot more French, b, got to know exactly what I want to do at the shop. And so when she sold it to me on the first of April, nineteen seventy one, I placed an advertisement in the held Tribune which said your wine merchant speaks English. Brilliant. And so basically Paris, I was in the eighth. It's location location location. I was beside all the embassies, IBM, the American banks. I mean, I was the only English speaking wine merchant to Paris. So it started off pretty well. So the next milestone in your life was the judgment of Paris in nineteen seventy six. What was that all about? Well, the next milestone in my life was to found La Academy Duvan, which was the first private wine school in in in France. With an American partner called John Winroth, who was the wine correspondent for the held Tribune. And it was via La Academy Duvan because we work the only English speaking wine school in Paris, and we had a big tasting room. So California of Witness used to come over with their wines and Robert Finrigan, who was then the top main writer in America, he was replaced in eighty two or three by Robert Parker, and Alexis Bespelof, who wrote for the New York magazine, and we began to be exposed to California wine. Which I had never even thought of before. And so my partner in La Academy Duvan was Patricia Garaga, who is, American, very proud of her country. She took a vacation to California in September seventy five, came back raving about the quality and had already preselected at least half a dozen wineries, we thought we should show to the opinion formers. And then we had the idea that we would we would herd a tasting. And I said to Patricia, Yep. But we've held a lot of tastings at Lacadabilever. But this is different. We need a peg to hang in on. And she said, I've got the peg. Nineteen seventy six is the bicentennial of the American declaration of independence. And I said, well, we British don't really celebrate having lost the colonies, but I'll go along with that. So that was the peg. So we had we had the theme, we had the peg, then we got the judges, who are the nine best palates in France, Ober Deverlin, from the Romilly Kante at Pierre Terre from Shatter, Sean Claude Frigna Frantilever. I'm gonna at the top panel, and then I went with my wife to California to make a final selection. The wines came over, luckily, with a group of twenty two people who were on a wine and tennis tour, with Andre Chelichev, the great Russian enologue, and they brought the wines over. Otherwise, I probably couldn't have gotten the wines into France. And only about two weeks before the tasting happened, it was not gonna be blind. It was just going to be showing six chardonnays from California and six cabinets from California to the opinion formers. Did I realize that of the nine judges, only one Herbert De Valen, who was married to a girl from San Francisco, would have ever tasted California wine before. And so even with the best will in the world, the judges knowing that California was on America's West Coast somewhere north of Mexico. They might have thought of it like Southern Spain or Southern Italy. And I might not have got the recognition for the quality of California wines that I was after. And so I told Patricia, I said, look, we gotta change it into a blind tasting. I said, I'm gonna put the top red borders, the top white burden is up against these. We'll serve them blind, and we'll see what happens. To France versus California. France versus California. And so I chose for the red wines, Obrion seventy, Mouton seventy, level, Alaska seventy one, and Margolo is seventy, all very high in cabinet seventy one. And for the whites, we had Batam Arache, seventy three, Pullien and Lake Priscillaume, seventy three. There's seventy two, Meursault, seventy three, and Boenkel, seventy three. So top, top, top, top, top. And the order of serving was drawn out of a hat, even I didn't know what the order of serving was. And when the judges turned up and when they were seated, ready to start, I said, you've come to taste california wines, and I thought it would be instructive to taste them against French wines. And I'd like to do it blind, but I need you to agree. They said, but a problem. And the rest of history. But who won? We did the whites first, and I can tell you six judges put Chateau Montelena first, and three judges put Chateauchats. We put Chalone first. My bet was on Chalone for the whites and Ridge for the reds. They're all californian wines that the Yep. Yep. Yeah. So there was no question where it went on the whites because it took a little time to clear up the whites before the reds were served. They had it in they had it in their notes and voting papers. Marking out of twenty. And we took all their marks and divided by nine, and Shutter Montelena was three points ahead of Mercer. That was met with surprise, not consternation, surprise, because the California whites were indeed very good. And then the reds were served, and I had the firm impression that they didn't wanna make the same mistake twice. They were quite critical of the California wines, which they could sense were California. Stagsley, came top by a whisker because I think they thought it was French. It was made from three year old vines, a hundred percent Cabony sauvignon, Andre Cheddar, had been the adviser, Warren, when he asked you as a winemaker. But even so, we ran the numbers time and time again, and enough judges, but it's actually top to make it valid. So the top red was, again, a californ. Top red was, again, California, and then there was Mouton, and then Manuel, and then Ridge came fifth and level lasquez came six, then the last four wines were California. And so if you look at the result of the reds, it wasn't so much a picture of a California as the whites were, but the California wine was judged to come first, and that was That was that was what made the press. So that's, a little bit about your time in France. You're a frequent visitor to Italy. You come to Montachino, I think every summer, at least. Well, my wife and I lived in front we moved to France, as I said in sixty eight. Then we moved to Paris in nineteen seventy. We moved back to London as a family in nineteen eighty two. But I then continued to commute to Paris because I still had the shop and the various other wine businesses I had. And then I sold everything up in nineteen eighty eight and came back to London. And, I had already written some books, and I decided that I wouldn't employ anybody ever again, and I just employed myself. And so I had to turn myself into a wine writer and a wine consultant, which is what I did. And I ran the Harris wine department for about six months, which was very interesting experience. And that got me back into the swim of the London wine trade. And then I met Sarah Kemp who was at Decanta and had ambitions for Decanta, which she eventually took over. And she said, you know, at some point, I'd like you to come and write for us. And then when I left my job at harrods. I said, okay, Sarah. You can start. So, basically, from about nineteen ninety three, it was life at Decatura. And that's been, you know, where I've been. I've done lots of other consulting stuff and lots of other parallel to that, but to count has already been the hat that I've been wearing. But to get back to Italy, I'm a good friend of Peter Femfort from Fattorian Yutardi in Kiante. The good friend of assessors from Casa Diardiano, so each summer, my wife and I, and a few friends spend a week at Detardi, and then a week and a bit at Agiano. So sort of pretty much Tusk and Bond, and I go to Piedmont whenever I've invited, and I wish I could get to Umbria. I just saw the lungaratus who said, you have been to see us since nineteen eighty two. We must have good memories. Yeah. And I was discussing with my wife just a week ago. And I said, you know, I could never go back to live in France. I said that was in the past. We've done that and living in France, even though we've spend a lot of time driving through France, Italy. I said I it doesn't appeal to me, but I could live in Italy, boy. I don't speak a word of Italian, but the food's very good because there's so much going on. There's so much going on in Italy. And it's not to say there's nothing going on in France. Absolutely. The contrast is a huge amount going on, but I've sort of done that. I'm fascinated by what's going on in Italy. The resurgence of the native grape route is the enthusiasm. The fact the big names, Antinorien, Zonian, and Friscoe, Valle, remain totally approachable. They remain absolutely vigneron, even though they've been doing it for seven hundred years. So chief, do you think that's a little bit different? They look compared to say France to get to to meet the winemaker at Chateau tour, you'd have to maybe send eight thousand emails. Yes. So what is that what you're saying? Well, I mean, I think at Vinexper, Eric Dorosteel will be at Lafayette. Corrin, Medopoulos will be at Margot, France Rapino will not be at Lator, and, Robert Delucksenburg will be at Obrion. So the owners are there, but it's, yep, I would think Eric de Racio and Corey and Messantopoulos are really hands on owners. It's just that I feel there's more going on. There's there's there's more going on in Italy. There's there's it changes her time. I mean But do you think in a way the judgment of Paris, the fact that it was seen as a a victory almost for the sort of riper warmer style wines that in some ways also helped create the the boom in Supertuscans when Tustuscan grapes were being lender would say Bordeaux grapes Yes. To imitate the California stuff. And I think anyone talking about Supertuscans now would say it it would not say it was a mistake, but they're not making those kind of wines anymore. And I I think I think Robert Parker had more to do with it than the judgment of Paris. But is that a good thing that the super tuscan trend, that Frenchification of Italian wine is now is now calming itself? I think it's a very good thing. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's a very, very good thing. When I when see the Camayola and Cignanello, appearing in San Chobese rather than Merlo. I'm I'm really happy. I mean, wines, you know, as well as I don't want to have to represent where they're from, a sense of place. They do that with, the original grape varieties. Can do it very well with imported grape varieties provided the grape variety suits the climate and the terroir, but the the sense of place is so evident in Italian wine. It's not it's not evident in Spanish or French wine, but really the individuality comes back to the individual expression. I find Italian wines is remarkable and, really in the last ten, fifteen years. So you are one of the world's great communicators. You're a champion of Italian wine of native grape varieties. How does Italy get that very potentially very complex message about it's the complexity within its wine across in a simple way that normal people can understand. I think they have to do it by region first to region back to Tuscany or European mountain. Yeah. Yeah. Region first because people who are going to be interested, going to recognize a region. I mean, everyone recognizes Rioja, everyone recognizes shutting up Japan. That's what it's that thing. So region rod than the myriad of grape varieties? Yes. Region rather myriad of grape varieties, leave the myriad of grape varieties for the to be discovered. I'm not I was going to say for the wine nerds, but there, that's wrong. Leave the myriad of grape varieties to be discovered because there's something new every day. I mean, Vermentino, for instance, Ian Agata just told me there were ten different Vermentinos in Italy. I didn't know that until yesterday. But then I know I was with Ian and and a group of his, students up in Priule, tasting red grape varieties. I'd never even heard of the Rufosco. And well, not even that that I had heard of, but there was one whose translation was cut the tongue because he was so selengi. Yep. Fantastic wines and wines to go with food. Now, that's another thing. You seldom see an Italian drinking wines without food, a glass of paseco or glass of white as a pair of teeth, but the Italian wines are so meant to go with food. And that I think is something which should be stressed as well. It's a character. And you don't need to say this wine with that food, but they are the ultimate wines for food. Do you think also the Italian lifestyle is something that could be it's very consumers find very appealing. They maybe see French wines a little bit stuffy. And Italian wine, this is a little bit more relaxed, a bit more sort of family oriented. I think I think that's an important point. If you look at Francesco Zonian, you know, he's so dashing, and he's on the back of Decatur Magazine, a big photograph of him with this sort of gorgeous flaring dark hair. I mean, I think it'll it'll it's got a strong card to play in the families, how they look, and how they dress. It's part of the Italian package, the style, yeah, style. Yeah. Steven, it's fascinating to talk to you. We could probably spend four days talking about your career in wine and everything that you've given to the wine trade via your words and and via your books. I'd just like to add one thing is we're here because I'm giving a tasting in about half an hour's time on English sparkling wine. Okay. And that's something new on the block. I don't think it's ever gonna arrive rival, Frank Yacotta, or, but it's something which is pretty brand new and and everyone is talking about it. It said, I'm gonna be really interested to see how the wines are received. So that's your own estate. Isn't it? Well, my own ten hectart vineyard will be there, yeah, in Dorset. Great. Stephen Spirier, legend in in the history of modern wine. Thanks for coming in. Thank you very much, Marty. Follow us at Italian wine podcast on Facebook.