Ep. 475 Elena Pozzolini of Tenuta Sette Cieli | Italian Wine World

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with Me Montewooden. My guest today is Elena Pazzolini from Tenuta de Shelly in the, Bulgaria area of Tuscany. Correct? Yes. Correct. Hi, Elena. So just tell us a little bit about the estate. Where is it? Cause it seems to have vineyards in two different places and a little bit of the history of the estate. Yes. So the property has been, by from a family from North Italy, from Como, from, Famillarati. She fall in love for this place, which is on the top of a UN, in front of the star. Cascicaa. So it's located in Montever de Meritimo, because, the administrative boundaries is, is, multivariate, they're not, bulky. But we are very close to Walgreens. So, as I told you before, very close to the sarcopenhosa, so the property born up there at four hundred meters in a very rocky soil. But because it was a staff to her to make people understand our place. We decided to buy a property in Boulder. So from, two thousand eighteen, we bought this property. On the bottom of the hill, where satishal is located there. So different condition, different soil, different altitude, but, still, very interesting, and, place to grow the vines. What are the differences between the the two areas that you have? So, just to give you an idea. So, Bulgaria, as you know, is a a very small darker doc and, it's almost a one thousand two hundred hectares. And it's the only area where you, find a, port over adults. And, the kind of soil that you can find in this area. Obviously, I'm talking very generic, because every single vineyard has its own availability. But, from a Bulgaria, which is the main street, where all the famous, winery are located in, like, on a lie, for example. Below the street, going closer to the ocean, you find more sandy soil from that street until the bottom of the hill where we have the property, then we both, is a mix between sand and clay and some limestone. And on the top of the hill, like a Saticelli, is a very high percentage of, clay and lots, lots of stone. Just to give you an idea, the Starcovina is at the three hundred and eighty meters. And, has been called, sassakaya, while, because, while they were preparing the the vineyard, they found, sassakaya, sassan means stones. So they found so many stones. That's, the same profile that we have in Satition. So first of all, the difference is the kind of soil, then the altitude, okay, because, the, the altitude, the, the innovation, fantastic temperature change between night and day. So the time of ripeness, even if we are talking about the same varietals, up to the hill is slower. And, that's a preserve, aromas, preserve acidity. And you face with the final finding of the of the skin, usually very late when the time when the the the the weather is cooler. And, and plus, the presence of the sea obviously, Absa having a constant breeze. We are in up to the hill. We we are at the almost ten kilometers. And, so you can feel the breeze constantly, and it helps a lot, especially it because we are organic. So it helps a lot to get dry, leaves and grapes. So how long does your harvest normally take from start to finish them? So we start down in Walgreens with Merlo usually, beginning of September. And, we finish after with the Cabernet Souvignan, sometimes Cabernet Frank mid October. It works abroad a lot. Like notably in Argentina, in California, you're very, very well traveled. What did you learn on your travels that has helped you, change things at, To be honest, what I learned, first of all, is a different approach to face the way I'm making because I found the new word more open minded and characterized by experimentation. I remember when I was after university when, before I left, I did some experience in Tuscany, and it was a very common and usual to find a a repeatable way to work. And it used to say, yeah, we always work like this, and every things was good. And so why I have to change, you know. And so I learned from my experience around the world, a different attitude. Obviously, every single experience had taught me something, but right now, the season are so inconstant that it's hard, to apply what you learned the year before because, it can happen that, from a vintage to another, your way to work can be completely the opposite. To give you an example, a two thousand in two thousand fourteen, two thousand fifteen, it seems to be in two words completely different. Fourteen and fifteen. Why were they so different in a couple of words? Yeah. A couple of words. Two thousand fourteen was a very cold, season and lots, lots, lots of rain. In July, just to give you an idea, every two days it was raining. Twenty fifteen, it was very hot. So in August, even up to the hill, we reach forty degrees Celsius, which is, unusual and amazing. And what was worst was the average temperature was always around thirty two for fifteen days. It was like this in August. So it was very, very hot. And from two thousand fifteen, on, I can say that every season are getting hotter, hotter, hotter. Thousand seventeen, it was completely dry. Hotamak dry. Lots of dry. So every year is a new story. What do you do with your your vineyard teams? What have you changed in the vineyard? Because of climate change, for example, pruning or savershi cover crops. Yeah. So what we do is suffer because you never know what you are going, to have, you know, like, it's a very unpredictable sometimes because, you don't know how could be the the the season. But for sure what we are, doing right now is, we don't remove the leaves as we used to do. And if we have to do something like this, we do with a very big crew because timing is the magic word to to do quality sometimes, you know, timing and the sensitivity to do the right things in the right moment. So regarding Sebastian, we try to to with a workable recipe, okay, and it's it's impossible to work with recipe. So what for us makes the difference is is to give to the binds and to the single parcel what they need. You see sometimes it's stupid, but it's now It's not like this. It's not you can watching the vines, you can see what they need. So what we do right now is, even for, or so special for maneuver for, feeding for everything. So we try to give we try to to give them what they need. And day by day, we decided how is the season. We try to give what, they need and what is the best things to doing the right moment. Do you sell things like, cereals, like, or cloves, tifolio, things like that for cover crops? Yeah. For cover crops, and we use, Center. So it's a mix of states. For example, for Malbec, we have Malbec. And Malbec, I used to work in Argentina. So I was, expecting a different Malbec. We have a condition completely different, and the Malbec, in our area, suffer the humidity and the rains, and the skin is just very thin. So we planted the barley because barley goes in competition, suck water goes in competition with the vines. So we try to find a natural way to obtain the best result. Sometimes it works, Sometimes it doesn't work, man, no, because there are many factors that you can control everything, so obviously, but our goal obviously is to reach this. Why do you sow Thrifolia or clover as a cover crop, commissivet shop? Why do you use that? Why we use that? Because, when he is in person to for the and for the to fix nitrogen, during some phase of, growing of the vines, So it depends, it depends, even, sometimes, how much we produce, from the device, and we try to give them what they use to absorb nations the year before. Okay. So every year can be different. And, it's it's the part, funny and interesting of this topic because you never do the same things, you know, you you try to adapt a different condition. I mean, in terms of cover crops, this will be the last one on cover crops, but it's a very important thing, particularly where you are. Obviously, with climate change, getting organic matter into the soil to act like a bunge when it does rain. Is that important for you? And what do you sow for that? What kind of crops do you sow for that cover crops? Okay. So for sustains, organic, so sometimes we use, manure. If we need that, the substance organic is, organic part is, checking to the analysis of the soil. If we see that the level is quite low, we only use a ripe manure because it's important that it's ripe. Otherwise, where you whoever is a seeds from the animals that they use to, you know, eat and is is not what we want. So we usually, take a very ripe manure And, but we don't do every year because, sometimes, it can be a problem because we force it to match the the production and the vigorousness of the vines, and we don't want this. We want, everything's well balanced. So some some years, we do only in the parts that we saw that the disease suffer a little bit and the shoots, they didn't grow very stronger as the other. So every year is different. We after harvester, we do we check all the parcel and we decide what to do. So just when Elena, just for everybody, when Elena says, ripe manure, what she means is manure that has been aged, and isn't completely fresh because if it's completely fresh, it will actually damage the vines. Okay? So you've had a very, varied career. You've worked in, as I think we said, in Argentina and the United States. What did you learn from those experiences that, have helped you, when you came back to Tuscany. Yeah. So, obviously, when I was in Argentina, I needed to harvest there and one in Australia and two in California. So the climate was completely different, but here, Argentina is a desert. So if you don't irrigate, you need the water, you know, to have life, because sometimes it's tough to to grow the vineyard at that condition. And so I faced you very extreme climate, and, and consequently, the result of, the mast and the vines were with very high alcohol and the low acidity. So I learned how to treat the, mass and bind in this condition. Even as I told you before, I learned a a different approach to face with the make one making because they don't have our history. So when I left, from Tuscany, it was a little bit too too self confident to know already everything's because I I believe that the new world couldn't teach me nothing because I was coming from Tuscan, you know. And then I realized that, they were more open minded, and they wanted it to arrive. They they didn't they don't have the our same history. But they wanted it to do better, better, better, and they were, usually trying to do experimentation. The I remember that one of my ex boss, they used to say, you never know, you will never If you never try, you will never know, you know, if you're doing right or or, prorang. So I learn, milly, you know, this, this, approach. And, obviously, that, then my approach when I arrived in, came back in Tuscany, it it was, more to be sensitive in the vineyard. I found that, vineyard is really, important. I always say that can be I cannot be a winemaker without, being the vineyard because, it's not, just a phrase, but, the one you first do in the, in, in the vineyard. So It's very important to give, you know, to the vineyard, what they need, watching them. It seems simple, but if you watch the vineyard, you can know what is the best thing to do. And, it's the same in the salad. Testing the wine, actually why you're doing, you know, fermentation. You can understand, what is the best things to do. So I've got a question about entomology. You really like entomology, and you've done a lot of research on that. I know through your career, Can you tell me, what entomology is and why you're so fascinated by it? After my degree, graduation, I specialize the invenior disease, especially in the grapevine move, which is a tenolita de Laviso. And, in the marine disruption, which is a, Virginia, so I spent, several years, around the vineyard. And, and that community has me a lot to understand better the dynamic of some disease. And, I understood, not only the bad effort effect of, this, more, but I understand, even how many insect are in useful. And, we call it in Satiola. So usable for, for a Viticulture or for an ecosystem, because, that's why I believe a lot in the organic matter because, there is, in the surrounding environment, consists in a in a consistent that, if you are, organic, you cannot alter, and, it's very important because at the end, you find a balance between good things and bad things. And so I understand from, entomologists that, seriously is in a fascinating world. And, many different factors that, at the end, can bring, a balanced ecosystem? You you're you're organic in the vineyard, how about the wine making? How easy is it to make wines in the bulgari area? We think of it as a hot area with okie wines. What's your approach? Set to study. So my my approach, to for my for my making is, I define a very simple because, there are no rules and there are no recipe. I can start with, before they harvest time, I usually I'm with my colleague because they always be around the continent of a sugar level of sugar, acidity, pH, and they usually go through the tasting of the of the berries. Something that's a learning in in Australia. And it was funny because, I learned that, tasting a berries, you really can't understand how it could be your wine. Obviously, when you taste a glass of wine, you have the alcohol, the acidity, you have, the tenders, but if you taste between, between, a berry, you don't have the alcohol, but you have the water, the sugar, the tanning, the, the skin, the acidity. And so you can understand and feel the the the balance. So I start with the this approach. So lots of dicing of berries, and that's, when you feel that everything is well balanced in your mouth is the right time of picking. No numbers. Numbers is just the numbers. Although of the rest is what happened in a tank during the fermentation. So even in the cellar, it's quite simple. So every day, there are no rules about how many punch down or pump over or oxygen. Obviously, we are very careful about, to feed in the right way, the Easter. We use, indigenous Easter, and we did some trial with the commercial East, but, we don't want to standardize our production, with something commercial. You know, we feel that, obviously, the the differences between the commercialists and individuals are minimal. But, there are. And, you can feel it when you compare it. So we want to preserve this. Satishali is surrounded by forest. There is a there are no producer or lots. And so we don't have any, you know, influence. So we want to preservatives. A wine must talk about, obviously, grape, but must talk about a place and then about, a vintage because, it's impossible to do the same wine every year. Season are completely changed, changed, and every are so different and constant. So it's important that the wine speak about, a vintage. So the the the other reason that we don't work to work with the commercial history is because Most of all the times, the commercial is, makes the fermentation the the phonetic very faster. And, we don't want to make us as a shorter, the time of maturation. We are making a red wine red wine. So it's a very important distraction, especially in the first days because, we don't have the Haku at the beginning, and Haku can be a stronger and, sometimes too strong a structure. So we want to control the instruction. And then everything is just distancing. So I have the the sensibility to to do the right thing and the right moment. And, as I told you before, every year is completely different. So you face with different wine. In the last five years, I can say that, the season are getting hotter and hotter. And so sometimes it's a five It's very important. It's common to find a higher percentage of alcohol. So it's important that you have a tenants, and a CDD, that can balance the the hoppiness of the alcohol. We are lucky because the location and the kind of soil and the climate, the macro climate that we have in Satishaly helps a lot, especially to preserve the acidity and aromas. So, the presence of the sea because we are, ten kilometers away from the sea, helps to have a a constant breeze and, delegation, create a fantastic temperature change, between night and day. And that's good for, for, to don't lose the acidity. Accidity means, that when the young the wines are young, they're very close and tight, in fact, we release the wines, in later respect, or the other, the winery of the area. But then, you know, CTV gives lives to the wine. And so we want this from our wine. We want the elegance and we want the freshness. So I'm not saying that, our place is better than the others. I'm just talking about a specific place. And I'm fascinated about this. I'm fascinated when the wine that you can recognize, and you can feel where you come from. But if you, anybody wants to look at the state's website, there's some fantastic photography there that really gives you an idea of how sort of isolated this particular, estate is, really, really good photography and a very good website. So just let's talk about the individual wines, your red wine. So tell us about Janta what is that name from? So Yandra is a a wine, a blend of a Cabernesto Vignana Merlo sixty forty. And I don't like to call entry level wine because we don't treat as entry entry level wine. So there is noise specific vineyard for Yantra. So the ma the merlot and the cover that we like less goes to yantra, but, we don't produce one grape more respect to the other. So we treat all the vineyard at the same level. Say hi say, quality. And then it's just a choice. What we like, lesser goes in younger, what we like more goes in India. And, because, we parcel a lot. Even every single terraces that you can see from the website, we parcel, seaside, middle part, bush side, just because testing the barrier, you can feel the differences. And so we put a yantra in a old barrel just to keep separately this, parcel. Then we have a new quattro, which is not anymore on the top of the hill, but is inside the ball grid EOC, and, is, a blend of, four varieties, cabernet sauvignon merlot petiverdon, cabernet Frank, agent in barrels, French barrels for almost fifteen months. And the percentage of new oca can be from forty to fifty percent maximum. Then we have the Indaco Indaco, again, we are on the top of the hill, and it's a blend, of Malbec, Cabernes, and Merlo. Usually one third, one third, one third. We do an aging of barrel in barrels for almost eighteen months. I say almost because, sometimes it can be eighteen, sometimes nineteen, sometimes fifteen. So we taste, we decide when, remove the wine from barrels. But we keep every every single person separately, and then we blend it before bottling. And the last one, but not the least one is a cabernet Frank, hundred percent. So governor Frac is a very sensitive, varieties. So need, especially in the final part of the ripening, the climate are not extremely hot and not extremely cold. And all in that condition, we can get the perfect ripeness of the skin. Otherwise, what we extract is two greener, bushes, aroma, which is not, typical covering, Frank, but you can feel it when it's a little bit unripe. So in the last year, we can make it every year. But, since, before two thousand thirteen, it was a tough to make it every year. So we usually make only the best of images. Just explain who if it's the scipio that I'm thinking of that occurs in the Italian Canto, the Italian national anthem, is that the same scipio? Cipio de la Fricano. Yes. It was a a a famous Roman military general. And, statesman would defeat the Hannibal at the final battle of, the second, Munich war. Yes. It's a Shipiola African. I'm impressed that you've got all that to memory. I'm Rajo. The owner is it was a a fanatical history, and that's why he decided to choose this name. His mother was already passed away. So he had to choose a name, and so in that period, it was studying battles. And so I was very fascinated about this general Roman. And so that's why he called the shivyo. Indaco, which is my favorite is, Indaco means a blue indigo, and probably from the website. You can see, but, is the main color you can see from the property, during the sunset. So it's quite beautiful because all around, become a blue indigo. The soil. It's amazing. That's why Satishali, it seems to obviously, you are on the top of the hill, but it seems to be many layers. So different blue, it seems to be a seven, you know, seven skies, a seven heaven. Okay. So, final question, what are your main markets for your for your wines? Yeah. So in, in Italy, our distributor is, pellegrini, but, we export our wine, for example, it's Switzerland with Broadakka in England, is our importer in Belgium, at Bivendum, and, we'll send Daniel in US say, which is quite big. And then we have a smaller distributors, in Japan or, you know, they're as well in, country. And, but you can find even, our wine, online in the shop of, our website. One final this is the final final question. I promise you. It is it if I got this right, that some of your vineyards planted at nine thousand three hundred vines per hectare? Yes. Who had that idea and why why is such a high fine density. That's like double, normal for Tuscany. I believe. So who who planted the the vineyard was, quartets from, group of us who were out. So to be honest, the new plantation, I because the the nine thousand three three nine thousand three hundred the plants collector means one point eight meters between the rows and sixty synt images between vines, which is for me too narrow. So the new Plantation, I I put the vines at eighty centimeters because you can control and manage better the development and the trim and the trim. So, sixes and images, I I had to change the system of pruning because when I arrived there, we had a double cordless pool, which is crazy. And so I turn, the here, they're arriving in one cordon sport, then, in, Alberto, until I arrive, just every year, until I arrive to Guio with double spore. Just because it was important to don't lose the space from, the, from the the the head of, divine. You know? So having two sport. It was I was I'm able every year to stay to find a a new cane for the Guyo. Yeah. So in front of a vine, I can explain better. Computer is a little bit tough, but so so I can say that six percent image is a little bit too narrow. So, but the idea of the high density is just because, you know, when you watch, a tree where you see outside, you find underground, of roots. Okay. So if you put one vines next to the other, the roots, they start to fight this space. And so it's a natural way to control the development of the shoots. I believe that there is always a right measure of everything. So, you know, we have a lot of clay. And so sometimes, with narrow rows, it can be dangerous, and you can make a lot of damage because, especially when you do sprays, you can, sleep with, with the with the both teeth and, make a damage. That's why we decided to keep to spur to always have a chance for the next year. You know? I mean, it's quite brave of you to do that to make that change. I mean, that's a big, it's a big change from for the vines. I'm I'm not sure that's a is the right answer because at the end, you have too many bots. Okay? So for example, two years ago, we started cutting the bugs because of what happened, that the at the end, you absorb too many energy from the vines. So, obviously, in March, you do the first selection of the little green green shoot pastille, you absorb some energy. So we decided to cut part of the bat, especially the first three that you don't use because they are too narrow and too attached to one each other. So you can produce, from that. So it doesn't make sense, you know. But sometimes when you arrive at that period, time is the point. So you you you don't have the time to do to do this. So we did an experiment last year with, just with the, three. It's called Palmetta. Peru English. Palmetta is like a three, like an umbrella, but in Spallero. Okay. So it's, a bush find that's treated, that's trained like a a cane prune line. So in this way, you control the number of of parts, and, you still, like, use the space that you have. So every, you know, is, better, and you need to do some mental, sometimes it's the right choice, sometimes not, but, it's the funny part of this job, is even lisa because you never get bored. Sometimes too stressed, but, I mean, I love my talk. You seem pretty relaxed. Just one final question in terms of the changes that you made in the vineyard. What changes did you see in the in the in the juice when you were fermenting the wines? Were the numbers different in terms of PH acidity and, and sugar levels. So, not in a pH. So and the acidity because it's something that, we still not understand how how can be possible that we have a so high acidity. We try to produce more, respect to produce less. But acidity in pH is something that sometimes is is it's really high and aggressive. Just to give you an idea, two thousand fifteen, that I told you before was very hot in the, in, August. And the first time in Satishale, we reached fifteen degrees. Of Halco, which is, first time in our life, even that, I was unable to understand the tenants during the, the final part of the fermentation. Do they high the the the level of high high acidity. So the first time in my life that I had to count how many days the the mass was in maturation because it was impossible to feel tens. For how strong it was the city. So for a city in pH, it's a different story, but, changing the kind of pruning, and so numbers of, bad and classic. Obviously, you have a different result in the kind of, ripening and, especially in the tenons. So they they've you have a more finding tenons and more, at the end, more elegant, you know, because, you don't have aggressive or green tenants. So this is, the main difference that I found, and, obviously, when you can manage, in more space, and in a better way, the the shoots and the all the plant, you have a better irrigation, from the sun, and, you you, you have, better portion, you have the the the wind, and everything's can go through better. So at the end, it helps a lot. So for the final ripening, for the rip healthiness of, the grapes. Brilliant. Okay. Very, very interesting. And, you know, it's very brave of you to make that change, but it seems to have paid off. Well, done you for doing that and for having the bravery to do that and, changing the wines as well. So, I just wanna say thanks to my guest today. In, the Tuscon coast. Been a fascinating to talk to you. And, we hope to see you soon. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, sir, for, for talking with me. And, I hope to see you in, inside the city. Yeah. You know what? I'm in the multachino, so I'm not too far away from you. So I'll come and see you. Okay? Okay. I can wait. Alright. Take care, Nada. Channel. Thank thank you. Bye bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple podcasts, Himalaya FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe cribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication until next time.