Ep. 32 Monty Waldin interviews Wine Writer Alice Feiring | Natural Wine

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. My name is Wendy Wardin. I'm with Alice Fireing, who is an American journalist and author and specialist in Natural Wine. Alice, hi. Hello, Monty. How did you get into Natural Wine? How did I get natural wine just because of taste. Somewhere in the late nineties, I realized my favorite wine started disappearing. It was the beginning to be the height of wine internationalization and globalization of taste. And I was selecting certain wines that still had, wines of life and wines of place and wines that spoke to me. And then I did my research, and I found out, hey, most of these are made with minimal intervention. So when you say selecting wine, selecting wine, for a wine shopper for a restaurant. You know, certainly I started writing about wine in nineteen ninety, and I realized that my favorite wines were disappearing. So I went on this kind of mad dash to find out whether I just had to switch to spirit right away, whether there were any lines left that I still liked. This all happened with more force when I was writing the Food and Wine Magazine official wine guide in two thousand and one, and I had to do so much concentrated tasting that I realized that wine was disappearing. The wines that I loved were disappearing. When you say disappearing, you don't mean like disappearing off the face of the earth, you mean just getting blasted by oak or They were disappearing into sameness, and there was very little vintage variation, everything tasted of new oak. It was the big new oak thing. So it was a lot of cherry vanilla, a lot of wood splints. And a lot of technology to hasten a process. Well, that's you. That's why I wrote, wrote my first book, The Battle of Wine and Love. That came out in twenty two thousand eight, but I started writing it in two thousand five because Northern Italy was disappearing There's really very few places on earth that I could drink, except for the lore at certain places in France. And that is where still these kind of wines at that time existed. And it was only under deeper investigation that I realized these wines were natural. Right. So when you're saying that That's such a hot term and a and a divisive term. What do you exactly mean by what makes a wine natural? Starting with organic at least Viticulture, a non chemical based Viticulture, which is essential, then carrying that non intervention or do no harm into the wine. So, basically, you're doing the very minimum. So it is you're not exerting extreme control over the wine. Nothing added. Nothing taken away. Maybe a little bit of sulfur. No extreme processes. No micro ox, no reverse osmosis, you know, you're not acidifying, you're not adding Velcroin to get rid of, pretend amyisis, you're not yeasting, you're not doing any anything. What about temperature control, things like that. I don't like extreme temperature control. I find that is doing a a yeast selection, but I think it is essential to make a healthy wine to be able to make it in an environment where there is if you're not lucky enough, to have a cold cellar, you have to do something. I think a lot of people get into trouble by not taking that into consideration when they make wine. That's one reason that making Quevary wine wine in buried on four is so great, especially in hot areas like Keketi in Georgia because it is basic temperature control. That's kind of that's a real back to basic stuff. But are you saying I'm not sure why movement traditionally has been associated with smaller producers because sort of hand making the wine or hand sort of unmaking the wine if you like is probably more suited to smaller producers. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Definitely is associated with smaller producers, but it is very possible maybe to make a little bit more controlled wine as a large producer, but it's perfectly possible to make a natural wine at being a large producer. Like I said, natural enough. Maybe your using a pia coop instead of every tank being spontaneously fermenting. So pia coop for any minute is is basically getting some, berries from your vineyard crushing them in a bucket, letting the yeast start working, then you can use that to season each tank to make it ferment properly. Yeah. So you'll use it in each tank. And maybe it adds a little bit of continuity between each tank. You know, I don't have much problem with that with because if it allows a larger person, I mean, a larger producer to make a natural wine, like, wine can carry these extremities to too far an extreme. But it is possible for a large producer to make a natural wine. Okay. So one of the criticisms of of natural wine is natural wine says it's kind of against standardization, right? The wines that have been heavily processed with a lot of technology and New York and things like that. So a merlot and a cabinet and we're shutting it will all pretty much taste the same. They've got this big glass of oak. What about the criticism that natural wine can be also standardized if for example you have a loire red, a bordeaux red, and a rone red, who will have the taste of, Brett Anomyces, for example. Is that not a form of standardization? If you're making a natural wine, there are gonna be some years that you have some bread, some years that you don't have some bread, you're going to have some years where you have more acidity than others. I've never really heard the notion that all natural wines can taste the same. I have heard the notion that all natural white wines taste like apple cider, which is a gross generalization. I actually reject that who's drinking these natural wines? Cause there is a huge and growing market for this this sort of natural trend? Who's who's drinking them and why? People are drinking them because they're finding excitement in them and a great sense of adventure. Natural wine will not be made with a certain mind set about how to achieve a taste the way a conventional wine will. So just because of that because every vintage will be different because every often there'll be bottle variation as well. It adds to the excitement. I think also people are drinking them because you do experience less of a hangover. For better, for worse, it means that you can drink more. Whether or not it's the buzz, you can keep the night going a lot longer, and people like the way they feel inside their body. Because it tastes good. That's always the basic thing. Do you think this idea that obviously we're in economically difficult times and the fact that of the great things about natural wine is they do tend to be sort of lower in alcohol so that you can actually finish a bottle. If you paid all that money for a bottle, you wanna finish it. Right? You don't want to after one glass, oh, really oaky. Can't finish the rest of that. This is true. And not only that, if you don't finish it, if it's a natural wine and it's made with very lower low sulfur. It should mostly taste really good the next day. Without sulfur, they actually keep longer than bottles with sulfur. That is one of the fallacies that get reported. That bottle with sulfur will last longer. Not exactly true. When you're traveling abroad, what is your typical schedule of your visiting vineyards and wineries and say France. Certainly, how does it how does a day in the life of Alice abroad go? No. It's all very different. And I try not to pack too many visits into one day. It depends what my objective is. I don't like doing more than three visits a day. I Three wineries a day. Three wineries a day. And because, you know, sometimes, especially if I'm with my friend Pazillion, who is here today, she'll insist on, like, five or six. That's too much because I need, and you'll understand this. Time between visits to sit down and with my thoughts. And also, I'd much rather have some extra time on the day than have to stop a conversation. If I'm on my own schedule, I really don't like taking a a meeting before ten because I really think well in the morning So it's like ten, and I don't like stopping for lunch. So I'd rather possibly just go on through, grab a cup of tea. So three visits, I like time to drive around. It's not gonna it's gonna sound really boring. If you thought about making wine, making your I have made wine. And I am thinking about making wine in the future. I'm, but more as a business as opposed to my specifically. I did make wine, which I wrote about in, naked wine. And I found it unless I'm growing my grapes pretty boring. I know people actually like the idea, but I think people who are merchants and buying their own grapes, there's a lot of time on your hands and you there's a disconnect from nature. So it's not my thing. But I am considering I do want to. I want to make the first natural kosher wines out there. Makes a wine kosher in a nutshell? In a nutshell, it basically has to be picked by Orthodox Jews and only handled by Orthodox Jews, and there has to be somebody observing it to make sure that nothing unkosher like blood goes into it. Basically, all natural wines are kosher and having been brought up orthodox, I wouldn't be allowed to make the wine because I'm no longer orthodox. And I think this is ridiculous, and I don't believe in it, but yet I want people who are orthodox to be able to see what I write about and to experience not to one. You're quite happy to sort of tryna push it barriers and break walls down and and tryna shape things up. Yeah? Well, I don't see the alternative. I think sometimes you have to. I'm, by nature, extremely shy, but if I get angry enough, I stop being shy. You have been described as uncompromising. Is that is that a fair comment? It wasn't my comment, but it wasn't. I'm totally, you know, it's I am not uncompromising. If people think that I only drink hardcore natural wines, and I have no trouble with, natural wines in my newsletter. I well, actually, I do have trouble with unnatural ones, but I don't have any trouble with wines that have sulfur. I cover wines that have sulfur in my newsletter. For me, that's maybe fifty sixty total. It is true that when I'm getting up to a hundred PPM, that added sulfur to wine, that's like too much for me. Oh, really, I'm just looking for a good wine that has a lot of life to it. And I am uncompromising where if it doesn't taste good, I don't drink it. What would a wine that doesn't taste good mean? Would that mean one that's been growing with weed killers and pesticides and had enzymes added to it and all sorts of stuff, or is it is it more about the taste rather than the process? I think at this point, my taste is aligned with the process. Actually, at this point, I could pretty much, and watch if I say it. Somebody's gonna duke, can you blind taste, you know, Viticulture. But I got into this because of selecting organic grapes and organic wine. Basically, it is going back to taste. And then the process suits and fits my philosophy that I believe deeply. I mean, in the beginning, there was this sort of, when natural wine started coming in the scene, there was a bit of a a sense that, because organic wine could be made with the addition of sulfites, which is a preservative allowing to improve shelf shelf life of wine. And natural wine magazine, we we use very low or or no sulfites at all. And there was a sort of a stage where sort of quotes organic producers were not saying they're organic anymore. They they became now natural because of the mainly because of the sulfite issue. So do you think that's a bit confusing for people, you know, biodynamic, organic natural? Where are the crossover points? Well, I think biodynamic is not as confusing. And right now, I think that a biodynamic wine is probably the best, stamp that the consumer can look for because it actually means something. And I think organic wine does not mean anything, especially with the new EU regulations that are my letter say bullshit in here or Unless you should've heard it already. Thank you, which are totally bullshit. I'm very much against the EU regulations. Because the American one is much, so that American rules governing organics are you do have an organic organic wine means no added cellphones. Right? Yeah. I know. But in either case, an organic wine can have every trick of the book thrown at it but you're not allowed to have sulfites. But you're allowed to use any ingredient as long as it's organic. That is not a wine that I want. I don't eat my food that way. Wine is food. Very much believe in that. You're a vegetarian. I am a vegetarian. Do you object to horses working in videos and things like that. Some people do, don't they? They like to work. Yeah. Okay. And what a better place to work? You know? No. I don't know if any horse likes to laze around. There are the work animals. They seem to be quite happy. You get offended when people say that you're you're you're looking backwards? You're not looking towards the future. You have an outdated way of thinking. I mean, for the people who are looking forward to when we take our meals from test tubes, I say let them enjoy wines that are made that way as well. Maybe that'll happen in my lifetime out of necessity, but it's not something even though it's very forward thinking that I like. Those of us who care about food look backwards to the honest pure, delicious food of our ancestors I don't know of any other any culture that does not celebrate now the renaissance of foraging and finding food, which is an amazing joy, and it certainly is ancient. I will go back to the future if that is indeed the case. I have had some delicious wines made from forged grapes. I mean, that is possible, though, is an economic model. So dealing with a vine is always an interesting philosophical issue and fun to talk about. Would you like to have your own small vineyard? Yes. I would anywhere in the world. Anywhere in the world. Unlimited budget, but no no added self isolation. Did you know what that I've never actually thought about this? You must have a favorite place when you're when you're traveling around. You think, oh, wish I could just put my route down here. You know, sometimes it's just aligned with some of your favorite wines, and I think it'd be awesome to have some place in San Joseff. In the run. Oh, yeah. Actually, there's there's a place in Georgia, Ratcha, which I think has some We're by folks. This is Georgia Republic, I'm not Georgia state of in the US, but This has the most amazing mashup of terroir and micro climates. Another one in Georgia's Attenney, which is outside of where Stalin came from. And I was very impressed by the weather. So why is Georgia so special for natural natural wine fans? Again, Georgia, Republic of Georgia, Central European, Robert. Because it has such a you may have understood and you've brought out that I have this thing to the past. I feel very much like an ancient soul and, I think I'm attracted to antiquity. And there is a link to the ancients in Georgia that very much affects me. So when you say a link to the ancients, what do you mean by that? Why why do you still use special? And there's a way of making wine that the natural wine makers work there that is very much ego free. And it's very much letting doing as little as possible and letting the earth speak. The traditional way is to make one in buried clay vessels called Quevary, and otherwise known as sound for that they both ferment and raise the wine in. And so typically a white wine will be made like a red wine. So you put the grapes in and you let them do their thing. They stay in the vessel for six to eight months on their skins. And there you go. You take it out in this wine. Couldn't be simpler. It's remarkable because a lot of people think that clay allows a wine to find its identity sooner. And it's a breathable thing, but also it is a more complete wine sooner. A more complete wine sooner. Yeah. A lot of times, they were getting wines that are put into the bottle way too early, and you're still getting fermentory flavors and aromas, and that never happens with the quivering wine. But to do that, you need to invest obviously because if, you know, people who make wine want to get their money back generally fairly quick Yeah. So if you can bottle it and sell it fairly quickly and people are happy with it, they're getting their money back and they're not going bankrupt. So how? What is the motivation economically for winemakers to buy clay vessels, which are quite expensive, bury them in the ground, make the wine as the did. Are they having to sell the wine for a lot more money? These natural wines made like that? Well, from Georgia, you can have perfectly beautiful wines from, seventeen to twenty two dollars and worth every penny of it. So these are these sort of a niche wine that is very popular in, New York restaurants or or these potentially world beating in terms of, sales and distribution? Cause they've gotta be small scale. Right? Oh, they're very small scale. The good ones are extremely small scale, but you're getting a lot. In England, Japan is a very big market. Denmark is a big market. The United States is a big market. So who's drinking them again in these moments? Is it young people wanting something different? Yeah. People who are like archaeologists. There are a lot of people who are interested in it. I was in, a place in Esther wines, and I like seeing people actually look at the George and wine section. And I was like, really, the word has gotten out. People are experiencing them by the glass in New York restaurants, and they actually go out and buy them. And so I was standing next to an actually, anthropology professor. Any from NYU and you said I had one of these things last night. It was amazing. So, basically, the future folks of the global wine market is dependent on us educating and creating more archaeologists and anthropologists and anthropologists. That would put us into the We'll leave that for the biodynamic interview. Yeah. Alice Ferring, it's been a fantastic pleasure to talk to you. Very stimulating. You're making waves after your writing and you're speaking, and you're a real champion and natural wine. Not lovely to see you. Lovely to see you. Thanks. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.