Ep. 1581 Andrea Sartori | On The Road With Stevie Kim

Since two thousand and seventeen, the Italian wine podcast has exploded. Recently hitting six million listens support us by buying a copy of Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a small donation. In return, we'll give you the chance to nominate a guest and even win lunch with Steve Kim and Professor Atilio Shenza. Find out more at Italian One podcast dot com. Welcome to another episode of on the road edition, hosted by Stev Kim. Each week, she travels to incredible wine destinations interviewing some of the Italian wine scene's most interesting personalities, talking about wines, the foods, as well as the incredible travel destinations. Hello, everybody. My name's Stevie Kim, and welcome to the Italian wine podcast. Usually, I do this on the road, but today we're in veronites. The summer edition verona special. And today, my guest is Andrea Sartori Challandrea. Chow Stevie. Good morning. How are you? Very fine. Are you getting ready for your holidays? Very ready. Us in Andrea. So I usually see you like either on a plane or at airport lounges. Things have changed quite a bit since the pandemic. Right? So what are your traveling schedule? Are you back to in full regime of traveling or what's going on? Not really. We are, as a company and myself, we are now thoroughly considering the way we travel, and we're trying to travel just for essential meetings. And most of the meetings right now are done on a digital way with video calls or any means that are offered two days after COVID and everybody accept. So we cut our travels quite dramatically, and even myself, go figure. I haven't been in Asia since November nineteen. That's telling you something. Oh, yeah. I think people are just starting just slowly to go go back to Asia, mostly. Right? This year? Yeah. Yeah. Not only that, you know, to be honest, today's day traveling has come very expensive. You just look at the airfare and the hotel fare has has increased dramatically. And that's why when you travel, you need to consider the cost of traveling, not just the time, and then you have to rationalize very thoroughly the way we travel. And this is not just me, but all our sales team is very careful. Saying that we still travel to Europe. I've been in the United States three or four times already. So I'm not grounded completely, but but, I'm traveling less. Oh, definitely. Right? I mean, I used to log in, you know, we're frequent travelers, all of us, right? And I used to log in, like, three hundred thousand miles per year. I mean, it's crazy when you think about it. Right? So The way we travel was probably too much, I guess, and COVID has forced us to reconsider the way we travel, which is a good thing in one way. But between me and you, I miss traveling anyway. Yeah. I don't miss the traveling being on the airplane, but I miss seeing different people. Absolutely. And different places, mostly. So definitely, I do believe our lives have completely transformed since the COVID. Absolutely. So is it more I mean, do you think it's definitely more sustainable in terms of the way we're approaching wine business right now? I think it is. I think it is. And, we learned to accept the digital meetings, which was not the way forward before COVID, you know, it was kind of rare. Obviously, I was using digital meetings before COVID, you know, but now with the new instruments we have, the fact that it's very well accepted by our customers and our distributions, you know, it cuts time cuts money, you know, it's a very rational way, you know, to meet people. Although, I don't like meeting people digitally. It's not the same thing, but, this is what it is. We have to live with it. Yeah. I mean, I personally, I am facing Zoom fatigue. We are, I think, one of the very few companies in Verona who used Zoom before the pandemic. Right? So, and then we, of course, accelerated, even the virtual tasting, every single meeting, We even ran actually a wine competition digitally sending all the wines, you know? I remember. Yeah. It's crazy stuff, but I still love meeting people face to face. Right? To be honest, it's not just us. I can see also our people, our customers, and distributors, Scott travels dramatically. So we have less and less people coming to see the winery, which I think it's bad because it makes a difference when you have people at the winery and they get the fascination of the place, you know, and you can really explain who we are, and they can see physically where we are. You know, it makes a huge difference, but unfortunately, this has been done, by everybody else, not just us. So, you know, I'm in your website. For those of our audience, our listeners who are unfamiliar with you, your name, you're of course the principle of, you know, the Sartori winery. Have you just changed your name? Kaza Sartori eighteen ninety eight. Is that the official name now? Now it's the official names because we realized that under Sartore de Verona, which is one of our lines, our premium lines, we had other concepts and other projects ongoing. So we needed a bigger umbrellas for all the brands we have. And so we decided to go more generic in Casa Satorre, eighteen ninety eight. And underneath of Casa Satorre, we then explain all the projects we have. Alright. So give us a brief overview of the Casa Santori. Right. It's a company that was founded by my great grandfather Pietro back in eighteen ninety eight. So I represent the fourth generations of the family And as you know, the fifth generations is coming, Jacamo, that you know very well, and my nephew Pietro entered the company about a year ago. And now they are on their learning process Hopefully, they will like it, and it will stay, and they will represent the fifth generation. So the company started out from, like many other wine company, my great grandfather was a restaurateur in verona, And he had, by the way, a restaurant's very close to here, the cartierra Fedrigoony. Oh, really? Right here. Yeah, right here. But it's it's no longer there. Right? No. It's no longer there, but you have still a piece of it to test on Pietro. Oh, that was a restaurant? That's where he was. Oh, okay. So what happened to the restaurant? We sold it and we focused on the wine business because, Greg grandfather was effectively a restaurateur. He was not a wine guy. But when we evoked a Villa Maria, which is still the headquarter of the company, he found a little wine cellar in the basement that was mainly used by the previous family to produce wine for home, you know, home, home, production, so it was not a commercial unit. But he had the idea to use that little unit to produce wine for the restaurants, and that's how he started. Oh, interesting. But then eventually, my grandfather, Regolo, which unfortunately never met because he passed away very young was the one that had the vision that the Sartori family would be a wine family. So he was the one that eventually sold the restaurants and he put all the money into the winery. So you're the fourth generation? Right. Is that correct? Right. Okay. So what is your role in Casa Sartori? Exactly. And how long have you been working since you're like five years old? Since I'm born. In the old time my dad was talking about business even in the home. You know, I would how that generation was. I was basically raised talking and knowing a lot of white people, the thing that really fascinated me into the wine business, not the product, really, but the people. You know, back in the days, I'm talking about the seventies and eighties, most of entertainment was done home. We were not bringing people at the restaurants. Right. We're inviting our customers in the home. Right. Right. And, you know, food with us. And so I got really fascinated because even then, our company was expert oriented. So we had all sorts of from people coming to the home, Germans, Americans, Canadians, French, to just name it. And that's people really fascinated me, and that was really what got me into the wine business. Where is your biggest export market? The classics, you know, Germany, UK, US, and Canada. So Germany is your number one. Germany is still number one, UK, pretty much equal. And then we Well, now with the Brexit and all, how's that changed? We we hold in numbers, although UK has become a very difficult market, very competitive, but it's still a huge market in terms of volumes. And saying that we are now in nearly seventy countries, export for us is still sixty percent of the business. Right. So forty percent, it's not a market. Yeah. Right. So can you just give us some numbers, like how many wines, how many estates, you know, how many lines, how many bottles? Cause I know you're huge. People don't understand that. We are we are pretty big. Last year, we sold the nearly fifteen million bottles. One five fifteen. Fifteen. Yeah. One five. And most of the numbers are coming from Satori brand in a different market segments. Let's say, but mostly premium We don't really much into super premium, but we are more into premium. And what do you mean by that? Can you expand on that? What that means? Premium means, anything which is retailing between fifteen and twenty. Mhmm. For example, in Italy, we have a large distribution in, off trade. So we're pretty much in every supermarkets, and we are one or maybe second one, a leading company in terms of repassos and Amaronis in the market. Who's number one? Probably continue this job. I'm not sure about that. Okay. But pretty much. We fight for number one and number two. Spot. Yeah. I didn't know that. Then every market is actually different in certain markets. We don't do off trade at all. Like United States is only on trade. Canadians, as you know, is monopolies, so it's only off trade. Mhmm. So every market has a different approach, but this is pretty much the numbers we do. Like I say, sixty percent is, export, forty percent is Italy. And, this is pretty much what we are. So we are probably the top five companies in, Verona in terms of turnover and volumes. What is your signature wine? Because you have so many. We have so many, because So when you are at our size, you have to cover all the appalachians of verona. So if we do actually, soave, of course, we do, Bartolino, better say the ones from Lakearta, but that were focus, and this is because where we are and who we are is definitely about. So, Porticello Maroneys are our top sales anyway. So, you know, Repaso. Right? But do you think Repaso in a way has been I don't want to say cannibalizing, but in a way, it has put amarone in a very difficult place in the market. What do you think about that? No. I think Repasso has cannibalized eventually, rather than I'm around. Uh-huh. Marona has a very high image and has a very high personality. So, Marona, I don't think I Marona was touched by the repassive way, which is now if you look to the numbers of the consortium repuses by far the biggest wine, like thirty plus bottles. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. So If you look to the split in Yeah. In the cells of Apolicella, which are around sixty five million bottles. Mhmm. You have thirty plus million bottles of Repaso. You have seventeen million bottles of Amerona, and the rest is Balicella. So, actually, Repasso are little by little taking the place of the regular Balicella, which is not a bad news, because you are premiumizing the brand, the appalachians anyway. And because of the profile, the tasting profile of Repaso is actually a very modern wine. If I would provide the modern consumers and ask them, you know, which kind of style you'd like in your red wines, most likely it will come out Repaso. Because this is really a modern wine. Although we've been doing, the appalachian started in nineteen twenty four, I think even now, both Repas and Amaroni are very modern, very fit for the modern consumer. Okay. So we're going to do some, like, speed questions, ma'am. Okay? Because I yeah. No. Because I know you're like a super expert. I love talking to you because you have an insight into really the markets. Right? So what are your five trends that you see in America or Germany or UK or Asia in terms of markets. What are the five things that you see that you can share with their audience? There are a lot of talking, obviously, about, organic wines. Mhmm. Are you doing organic ones? We do too. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And, although the numbers are not delivering the promise or, let's say, talking in the market, I think it's probably something that is worth it to explore. For all of us. And then, the new trend, I know you're not gonna like that. Wine to wine business forum. Everything you need to get ahead in the world of wine, supersize your business network. Share business ideas with the biggest voices in the industry. Join us in Verona on November thirteen to fourteen twenty twenty three. Tickets available now at point wine dot net. New trend by the younger generations is health, health consumption. I know. I know. The younger generations are kind of walking out from high alcohol. So low alcohol. So the new trend, and again, there is a lot of talking, whether this is gonna be transformed into numbers and volumes is has to be seen, but now the talking is low hardcore or actually even zero hardcore. Are you doing contemplating doing zero alcohol? We are working on that very difficult case because to produce good quality wines in low alcohol is very difficult. I've tasted some. They're all shit. It's just like juice, you know? Like, call it juice, not wine. Low alcohol. And when I'm saying low alcohol, I'm thinking about something between eight and nine percent. Oh, okay. Something like that. Then when you move down to zero hackle, then it's really difficult, very, very difficult to make wines that make a beverage that make sense. In fact, even I, I taste a lot of stuff and it's terrible. Yeah. It's crap. Just drink truce, you know, I would say, like, why bother? Right? And especially You're right. I don't like that. No. And red wines are very difficult. White wines are difficult. Very wine's very, very difficult. Sparkling wines a little bit easier because your palate get deceived a little bit by the bubbles, so it tastes nearly normal. But, you know, this is all the people he's talking about. I drank, I was in Venice the other night, was Saturday, yeah, two days ago. And they were doing the candidacy for La Cucin Italian for UNESCO Heritage. And they were serving Bezos ten point five percent. Alright. And even then, I'm like, you know, It's it's kind of like borderline, right? Like going towards, but not quite. And consider that technically, it's easy to do compared to a Yeah. To lower aqua or zero but this is, you know, what it is. So is that gonna change? Maybe? Are those wines are gonna be really successful in the market? Like beer as a bean? The alkalized beer is very successful right now. I don't know. I can hear from my customers a lot of talking, you know, and they're asking us, are you doing something? And we are. Yeah. You're working. Don't ask me when we're gonna be ready because I have no idea. Right. Alright. I'm gonna try it, and I'll say it's crap. But, you know, then trend number three, you were up to trend number two. Number three is definitely sparkling wines. The sparkling wine's wave is still growing, and you have seen what happened in Perseco Land. They got two incredible numbers. You're talking about more than six hundred million dollars. Is crazy. But now, you know, everybody's trying to come out with that concept, you know, whether they're gonna try that to steal from the prosaico market that I don't know, but definitely sparkling wines is, very successful for the new generation. Number four? White wines. Anyway, white aromatic. What are you producing in terms of aromatic white wine? We're trying to, which is, I know nobody I wouldn't really consider aromatic. Well, if you treat, Garganaga properly Yeah. You can have, some aromatic profiles. Right. From then you have in verona, you have two otherwise that are really there, one is costanza, which unfortunately is not very successful commercially right now. And then, of course, the lugana, which is, another phenomenal wise selling like crazy. Yeah. But it's had some weathered some bad Hailstorm recently. Right? Yeah. This year is looking very difficult. Yeah. They had two times pretty massive hailstorm. I don't know the last one because it happened last week. We are still waiting the reports from the consortium, but apparently it's been pretty bad. Yeah. I mean, Saturday when I got home from Venice. I know. My entire house. I live on the, like, the nine tough floor, and he was, it was I mean, our trees are anchored, but they were all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So But this is, I think, the five trends. No, that was four. Number four? Five. Let me help you out there. Rosay has surpassed white wine. How crazy is that? Yes and no. According to the American economist, Jose, US is doing very well. Unfortunately, it's French, Rosay. We Italians are trying to break the French, dominion on the US market, but it's very difficult. Because somehow the US consumers, when they're thinking about Rosay wines, they go automatically into French. I mean, this is a damp shame to be cut on us, right? Cause I'm enjoying a lot of Rosets, Italian Rosays. But what do you think is the problem of the less than, you know, lackluster performance of Italian roses? I know a lot of the big houses, they're changing the color, making it a bit more provence you know, to make it approachable. This is, the way forward. If you wanna approach the US consumers, anyway, I don't think it's quality. I don't either. It's pretty much up to to to the game. It's just, the trend. You know, trends is they started before us, and this is something. But I have my own theory. You want to know? Sure. So I think it's because Italians always considered Rosay as kind of second class you know, wine. Italian still right now, they don't really believe in Rosets because they snub it, right? It's either white or red. So unless it gets popular here Definitely. You can't be big in a market if you're not big home. I agree. I think this is the main yeah. This is the main problem. Right? I Gotta be big in your country before you even think to break into actual markets. And the major mistake many Tanya has done is not to understand the trend and keep making Rosay too dark, which was not accepted by the market. It's not just US. It's also UK and any other markets. They keep saying to us in the past, your Rosay is too dark, and it it doesn't work. So now finally, and and you know the system, immediately, you have to change the disciplinari if that is a DOC wines. And before we change the disciplinari and make sure we could produce legally lighter colors year passed by. And in the meantime, the French took the market by storm, especially the Jose from the south of France and so forth. And so there was something I always was my benchmark I'm sure you taste it before. There is a Rosay in the market which is called Whispery engine. Yes. Of course. And that is retailing for twenty bucks. That's a lot of money for a Rosay, but it's very successful. They reached some incredible volume in the US market. So tells you the story, you know, marketing, communications, and of course they started before us. And that's how it happened. Yeah. What are you doing in terms of communication? Have you changed anything recently? I mean, you've definitely changed the brand Right? So that's a repositioning on your pot. What else have you done? Cause you've been in the business for so many years. That's a good question. We try our best to do to the limited resources we have, you know, as a company. Tom, can you have limited resources? You're you're selling fifteen million bottles? Still, definitely have limited resources, but we want to improve that. We want to change a little bit our communication into making people understand that we are not just a wine company, but we start from the products. Right now, eighty percent of what we sales come from our own vineyard. So we need to explain people that we are not just. Oh, I didn't know that. That's significant. Oh, yeah. That eighty percent is a state grown? Yeah. So we are not just a winery. We are a fully integrated system, and we control quality from grapes to bottle, which is kind of unique. Alright. So listen, before you go, I need to ask you something a little bit more, you know, close to home. Right? And it's about wine fest because you and I talk all the time about this, mostly on the plane. Right? But what are your thoughts in terms of wine fast nowadays? Well, it's clear to me that wine fairs are important, but probably not as important as twenty or thirty years ago. Yeah. Before internet. I mean, if you think about it, right? For iPhone. Media conference, iPhones, and so forth. And we need to understand collectively as a system. This is something we are discussing between colleagues, old clients, really Yeah. I had this discussion as well. Right. Especially recently because definitely, we come to a point that we cannot afford all the white fairs you have in the market. And definitely, we cannot afford anymore to do three major wine fairs. Yes. That's the three bigs, right? The three bigs one, which are running in, one and a half months, more or less, you know, the Paris is in February. Then mid March, you have Provine, and then, early April, you have in Italy. So this is this is can't go. It's tough. This is not working for the future. So we need to understand where we will rationalize wine fairs. Then you have minor fairs, which is like London wine trade fair. You have all sorts of Asian fair. Yeah. And I think many of us has already terminated those fairs, but the three big ones, we need to rationalize. This is something that is gonna happen. I think very soon, so most of us will have to understand whether we go to all the three of them or just two of them. And I my answer is we have to cut one ferret. Please. Yes. Because you're very, like, you know, savvy businessmen. Right? So and you know the market inside out. So your prediction is that from what I understand, that most of the producers, many of the producers, whether they're small, medium or large, will have to make certain decisions to to make it more sustainable. And look at a company like us and many other companies of our size or even bigger. Mhmm. We have network of sales people in the market. As you know, we have somebody placed in China that covers most of the Asian market. We have people in US. We have people in Europe. We have our sales team here. So we cover the market. You know, we don't need to wait the market to see us. So, wine fair is also changing, skin, if you like, and we need to understand that. So one fair, to be honest, has to go. Yeah. Okay. Well, that is a promising note. One fair must go. So that's Yes. Statement by Andrea Sartore. Okay. Alright. That's it for today, Andrews. Thank you so much for popping by and sharing your insights of the wine business market and sharing business ideas. That's what we do all the time. It's speaking of which, sharing business ideas, Andrea always comes as a Pachetta for moderating one of the sessions at wine to wine. So we hope that we can see you there. If you're interested, the program is more or less out wine to wine dot net. And don't forget to subscribe and like our pot channels. Wherever you get your pots, whether it's iTunes or SoundCloud or Spotify, and then we'll see you soon. Tara Gatsi. Thank you for joining us on another installment of On The Road Edition, posted by Stevie Kim. Join her again next week for more interesting content in the Italian wine scene. You can also find us at Italian wine podcast dot com or wherever you get your pods. You can also check out our YouTube channel. Mama jumbo shrimp to watch these interviews and the footage captured of each location.