Ep. 254 Angelo Minelli (Wine-Searcher) on wine search engines, New Zealand and Italian wines

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This podcast is brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey. Native Grape Odyssey is an educational project financed by the European Union to promote European wine in Canada, Japan, and Russia. Enjoy. It's from Europe. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Montewood. My guest today is Angelo Minelie. Angelo is a wine specialist, wine searcher dot com. Where are you based then for wine searcher? Wine searcher is based in Auckland. In Auckland and New Zealand. New Zealand. Yes. Actually, wine searcher was created in London in nineteen ninety eight. Martin Brown is the owner and the founder. After a few year, actually, he is key. We moved in Auckland, and he established business over there. Actually, a few months ago, we are pretty excited because we opened a new office in London just to be more close to our customer here in Europe. So we are in Oakland and in London. So where I mean, where do you spend most of your time? Most of my time is in Auckland. I live in New Zealand, pretty much four months in New zealand to Monte in Italy because Where are you from in Italy? I'm from Lombardier. I'm from Franca Corta. So my family has a business there. We own twelve hectares, souvenir. So I'm in Italy, couple of time, Sophia, just to manage my business and manage the my little vineyard. Are are you extra careful when you're writing the description of friendship auto wines for wine searcher? Absolutely. I keep an eye. Actually, I'm the I have the privilege to work with, fifty, five people, almost sixty people. Really knowledgeable people. They have a different background, IT, excellent writer, master wine, and I have wine specialist. I'm the only Italian one there. So keep an eye of course for the Italian product for French culture. So how does wine search your work? It's pretty easy. I mean, it's you can have a website or an app. So mainly you just type, keyword, can be a producer name, can be a regularity, can be a wine site, and you set up a search so you get results. The result give you actually the location where you can find the problem. So if I'm an obvious question, I'm I'm sitting at home in London, and I wanna Google, sorry, to wine search, Bruno de Montachino, for example, or even a particular winery. I typed that in, and it's tell me where my nearest retailers are? Exactly. Yeah. Actually, you can have two possibility. One is type. Second is candle label. Maybe you already drink that wine and you particularly enjoy, so you can just scan. And you have, like, delete the info information that you need. So just a normal are you talking about a QR code or just a normal? No. No. No. No. You just scan the label of the bottle, and so you get the information that you need, and that is really cool. But otherwise, you can just type the keyword, the wine producer, and you can apply some filter. So you can if you are in London, you can just see around UK where you can find, or maybe if you are traveling, maybe you are in Italy. So you can switch in a different country, the location, and you can find different results. If I'm a wine producer and I wanna put my, my, just say, my wine school Chateau Monty, how do I get it listed on wine search? Do I have to pay? Actually, we have merchants So we have one shop that they list, they wine. And so, and actually, they tell us when they become our sponsor, the list of the wine that they have. So, actually, those products are in our database. So they pay a fee to be registered to. Exactly. Yeah. And this is up to them to supply you with the right information. Exactly. So I mean, when I create a wine or when I have a wine in a database, is the job of the wine specialist to check that every information is the denomination, for example, is right, the great variety, the style. So we are in charge to maintain it to implement the database according to the website, from the producer website, actually. So you have to do you also have to do a lot of double checking then. Yes. Even because you need to consider the most of the winery, sometimes they stop the production of a product, or maybe they just relabel the product. So all the time, we need to update all the information. Even the blend sometimes can change. Yeah. For sure. So, I mean, you from your perspective, big data is is kind of the one of the buzz words of our time, but you are getting a lot of data, obviously, about your customers, what they're searching for when searches maybe go wrong, just due to a spelling mistake, for example, and you I'm correct that, but you're also getting a lot of, data from the wineries. So, I mean, in in your only way though monet monetizing that is when I go online, I select to when I buy it, and you're gonna get a percentage. That's that's the business model. As well as listings people leave listings we don't sell wine, actually. Okay. That is the most important thing. Our business idea is like to be the Google of the wine. The search. So the search yeah. As the search engine. Actually, the merchant, the active merchant, they pay us to we seem to get resolved, but we don't have any commission in transition about selling wine. Okay. We don't sell wine. We just wanna Connect. Connect. Connect to buy with, with the car. Exactly. Exactly. But actually, the customer, they are really important for us because all the time they give feedback. Feedback about some spelling, some mistakes, some even evolution in term of the products. So are really, really important for us to if you consider that we have ten million of offer, it's pretty huge. Ten million wines listed? No. Price. Okay. Okay. You consider that we have, of course, some mistakes. So we need feedback from the customer. I've written to Wyton. I've been trying to find a couple of spending mistakes in I'm missing Italian regions. I just write and say, hi, just to let you know, it's, you know, I wouldn't do that for anybody, I mean, you know, you need to consider that we have an excellent feedback team that they reply promptly, but when searcher is not just engine search, even we have right that they all the time publish a great article, and that is a really, the in secret video I wanna say, site is really, really important, but we have IT. We have graphic. They are excellent. And so it's like a business that actually we have different skill that they we bring together, and we deliver this excellent product. Yeah. So a website that you can get in information from in terms of education, as you see, you don't sell anything. You just put potential buyers in contact with potential sellers. Yeah. And you just take a margin for helping that relationship or a fee using a fee, not a margin. Yeah. Actually, you need to consider that when you use our why search or two can be free. Okay? But if you type and you get result, you get less result. You get certain amount of result, okay, for the free version. If you pay hundred dollar per year. So in that case, you get all the results. So in that is the pro version. So with the pro version, you get access to more data, to more information, and it's the complete version of one searcher. Okay. So you got two tiers. So, I mean, that's quite clever because you've got potentially everybody can be involved, and if you really wanna use the tool to its full, and then you pay a subscription as you would. But I think that's the model. There's an EBITDA free content, and then the rest is subscription online. That's the future, really isn't that's where we're going. Yeah. Yeah. But there is photography or Exactly. Or whatever. And we are really proud about our amount of data of information that we can deliver. Because most of the time, what I wanna try to explain to the people, they even they know us, they know how we deliver our service. But actually, you need to consider that we have on a big amount of information. So those amounts of information are really strategic and really important for, I wanna say, producer, for merchant, for consortium, association of production. Why? Because actually, we can see the attendance or see how the market is going. And we can, yeah, and we can just give them a lot of information so we can deliver even some reports that they are really important to understand better a wide market. With the deliver some reports. Those reports are really important because actually for it depends for a winery, for a producer, for a merchant. So they have a question. They have particular question about some it, then we can provide answer. Give us give us a couple of examples of of, you know, merchant in London is gonna ask you a question about, I don't know, the Japanese market for Pomerol. Is that is it that specific? Yeah. I mean, an example of, I wanna say tenuta Sanguido, as me some information about where my wine is sell in which market. So I can provide them a report where I can see the Nuta San Guido, the size, bottle size. If it's a bottle, it's a manium, it's half bottle, whatever, which merchant, in which market, for which price, price after tax. And so, actually, Tenutas and Guido, for example, can see and and can understand better when the the market can be strong or when the market can be weak. And this can be for everyone. So for every producer was And what was the name of San Guido's most famous wine? Sashica. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't it wasn't a test. It was No. No. No. No. No. It was. So I mean, that is quite I mean, you know, it is quite useful because obviously, odd formats, whether it's just hit double magnum, expensive to ship. If it gets dropped, it's very, very expensive. So you wanna make sure that that particular bottle size of what is a very famous and sought after wine is gonna end up in the right place. It's not gonna end up in a shop. Exactly. Somewhere where it's gonna stay for years and years and years, the wine will spoil. Nobody's gonna buy it. It's a cost to everybody, and it's not going anywhere. So that is pretty useful. Yeah. It's a great example you're given. But even you need to understand that we can understand better, for example, where the Italian product, I wanna talk in general can be present in the market. So what is the percentage can be like in ninety percent of prison, eighty percent of prison. For me, when I talk about presence, it's like at least one bottle is in a merchant store, you know? So, and this is really important to understand how products are in a strong or in a weak position, how you can improve. For example, for a consortium, it's important to understand where a product, for example, French is now. When you're saying contorted, what you mean is the what you mean is the consortia, which is the the group of producers have a body that, say in Francicorte or Bruno Yeah. That could be a hundred or three hundred producers. And they all pay their consortio money for marketing and have advertising. And what you're saying is if they can get accurate data Exactly. And say, you know, we paid a thousand euros each for marketing, Bruno in Japan, for example, and there's not a single bottle of wine sold in Japan in the following year. You're gonna go I can talk to her and say, listen, you're not doing your job and, and the school says, yeah, we are. Oh, yeah. We said hang on. This guy's got the data from wine surgery. Exactly. We haven't sold a bottle in Japan. So something's gone wrong somewhere. Exactly. So there's incredibly useful. This this is really, really important. And most of the people, as I say before, they think that our services just provide prices and where you can buy. But actually, the, the amount of data that we actually own is really useful, important to give a lot of answer, a lot of question from producer merchant. What what's your favorite kind of geeky data thing that you that you look for? I mean, I know, and it's probably not very serious question, but I mean, what's the most sort of minute, most detailed search that you've done? Actually, you can work in different level. For example, in a in a market, you can just sit in that market which kind of denomination are really famous. First of all, country after denomination, in the denomination, you can see the vintage. And for each vintage, you can go to the price. So you can work in different level. Okay. So and this is really, really important because you need to understand that in a market, you can provide, and you can deliver really precise and tiny information. So, and this is up to the person actually that asked me a particular question to understand the data that I provide action. So if I'm pre I'm a producer and I want to know, again, Bruno, and I wanna know how Bruno is is doing inside, I know, South Korea, whatever. Whatever. Yeah. And how do I get in contact with wine certitude? Obviously, I would've already been in contact with you to have my wine listed, but, I mean, how do I get in contact? I just write you an email. Yeah. You need to write us an email at our feedback. Okay. And do you suggest Yes. Listen, we would suggest you you ask us to analyze this, this, and this, or do they come to you so we just wanna hear about our why and No. I I think that the best option is just to contact us, give us roughly an idea what they wanna do. And we can start to talk and actually build exactly the ideal wrapper that they need. Because actually every wrapper is not a standard wrapper, but it's tailor, it's designed. It's bespoke for that. It's specific for the questions because it's really difficult for me to just give you and provide specific example because we are talking about a lot of data. And so it depends what do you wanna know exactly. And based on that, I need to do my we need to do in our team, actually, have to to do a detailed research. So and after. But how long would that take you to I mean, obviously, you've got all the data, but you've gotta try and filter through it to give the to what it's like doing a presentation as a in front of a an audience. You, you know, you may know everything about Bruno, but we're just really looking for specific bits of all the data we've got on Bruno sales in Japan or wherever it is. How long does it take to roughly to prepare that? Obviously, it depends on the question, but is it easy is it for a couple of buttons that you press and being the it all comes out or it's just few hours. I wanna say it. It's pretty straightforward. Okay? Because our database is well organized. So we can just easily pick up the information that we want. So you can understand when you go in a lab library, and every book is perfect in every position. So it's easy for you to access to any data. It is exactly the same in our situation. That's a great analogy. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great it's a big library and you just know exactly which shelves. Exactly. That that book from the left. Exactly. That's where we need to be. Exactly. Okay. So you you were a very friendly chap, and you were kind of like a very friendly geeky, but what you're doing actually isn't geeky. It's actually logical and, very well thought out and precise. Yeah. It's really precise. You need to standing, our wine specialists, our people are really, really, they have a really strong knowledge. They have a different background from the wine industry of course, but they have a really good knowledge. And every year, they improve knowledge because they participate to courses. So they attend events just to understand how the market is going, how the producer, what they are doing. So I I'm really pleased to work with the important and really knowledgeable people. So you're saying that the people that, obviously, the content online searcher is people writing your employees writing the kind of articles explaining this region or this particular winery, for example. So on it almost, it's your sponsor journalism as well. I know, obviously, it's a commercial venture, but, you know, describing again, Bruno, for example, when it's got this many named areas and the production is x and altitude is y. We we have we have content writer that actually they write amazing article about different topic. Most and most of the time, I invite even producer if they are keen to tell us some nice story, unusual story. It's all the time, storytelling. All the time is really, really important. But beside that side, that actually is really, really important, we have even a encyclopedic part that describe you every denomination. Actually, there is a division country by country in each create a denomination, and for each denomination, we have description even for the great variety, for this style. So this part is really important because even for the customer, for example, doesn't know anything about wine, can just simply read and can under them better what's going on and all the information that we have. So it's a one stop shop. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you think about, won't have any names, but famous websites that do list wines, and they write articles as well, and they they list wines, but most of the time, as far as I understand, they are just doing that as a favor to their subscribers, because the subscribers, and they say, right? Well, you can buy this wine at Berry Brothers and Rod, for example, and here's the link, and you go to Veras. Now whether Berry Brothers give a potential or not, as an example, just saying, I don't know, but in your case, you've definitely got that matrix worked out where a click and a purchase is, good for the winery, but it's also, as you're providing the service, you're getting a fee. You're not doing it for charity. Mhmm. Whereas if I write an article, so I had a great Bruno called, Bruno Monty, whatever it's called. Someone buys it. I don't get any money because I'm not set up for that. So that's good. Oh, yeah. Also, I mean, in a way, it's is there any sort of conflict you think between, you know, you're not selling directly, but you're putting buyers in contact with sellers conflict of interest editorially? Because there's always that worry and whine or anything there's. No. I I think that for wine search, we have really transparent condition. You need to consider that the the key in this, I wanna say, I wanna compare is our wine search or application with Google. So, actually, if you wanna buy something, you are not picking the bottle from a box. So you know exactly where are you going. So they are different model in the market, our competitor, that actually they provide kind of the same service, but actually, you don't know where are you buying. So, and this is this is really different compared to what we do because for us transparency is really important for the customer. Actually, we direct the customer to the wine shop, and so they exactly know. And you need to consider that every merchant has a breaking. So, actually, for us, it's really important that the merchant, they are selling the good product, the right product, they are selling what actually they declare. They don't do a bit, and byte, and switch. So for us, it's really important to give them a score, actually. That is, came from a different, I wanna say, elements. Okay? We have different criteria. But this, for example, is an the element that we prove that actually we are working with, genuine people. Okay? So so if I if I'm a wine merchant in London, then I've got three bottles of Brunoos, or whatever, three bottles of Sadicaya, is it up to me, I have access to, I have to put my own data onto your server and to yeah, I've still got stock. And when those three bottles are gone, if a customer comes out and Google Sastakaya London, my name won't come up because you know that I'm out of stock. Yeah. So I have to do that in my own Actually, actually you provide us your lease, and all the time you renew your lease. On Because yes. Because o otherwise, if you don't do that, first of all, we inform you and you say, hey, we receive a feedback from the customer. And actually, you say that you are selling Sasekei. I am actually at the moment now. So probably you need to renew your list. Okay? And maybe you say, yeah, sorry it's my fault. I need to do, and thanks. But if you keep going, so this, reduce your score level. So you become, like, a merchant that is, like, not reliable. I wanna say. So, basically, if there are two merchants near each other in London, one block apart, they both sell SASaria, and one of them is very forgetful or just doesn't be bothered to update its SaaS sick eye levels. The other merchant's gonna get the sales, and it's up to the merchant that's been a bit lazy to to get with the program and to and to No. It's it's really it's really important. So Does that happen a lot though that you got by merchants that that don't keep up their their inventory on on your online system? Pretty good? No. They are really good. They are really good. As I said before, thanks even for the customer, they're actually they give us feedback. So we can all the time have a connection with the merchant, and we are sure about the service that they are provide. So that is really important. But, actually, we are pretty, pretty happy with the people that we are working. Okay. So no no sacking's coming. Alright. No fun. You go home at night. You yourself some dinner. What do you drink in New Zealand? New Zealand wines? What are your favorite New Zealand wines? This is the New Zealand wine podcast for the next four minutes, and then, we'll get on to Italian favorites. Call you back in New Zealand. I love Pinon wire. I have my favorite producer in New Zealand from No. It's unusual. It's in Nelson. It's, Nudorf. Nudorf. Yeah. It's pretty good. I love the product. But, actually, in New Zealand, most of the people when I travel overseas, they ask me about famous, Subignan Blanc, actually, New Zealand is famous for that. But I would like to remind people that New Zealand is not a great producer of Subignan blanc, but they have amazing pinot noir. And chardon as well, I think. Chardon? Yes. Yeah. Pinot green, is the new, I wanna say trend. But that's another another that's also Nelson is famous for its picture, isn't it? Yes. Yes. And then we'd all do another one. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Do you get to travel in in Houston? Do you get to get down to a Target? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I travel in a lot of wine regions here. For holiday or for research? The first year when I in New Zealand, I work in Malborough because my background is winemaking. So I work for We don't heal. Can you slip that little fact in? Yeah. Yeah. It's quite unusual. I mean, it's quite funny because, actually, I work for a lot of here as Wyemaker. I start my career in Europe in Italy. I run. I work, for ten years for Cal de Bosco in French of Corton, and so I work pretty much for them. And I start really, really low position like Salahan, and year by year, I improve, and I I reached, like, this step of winemaking, and was really, really important moment for me. After that, when I moved to New Zealand in two thousand fifteen, I worked for Witter Hills. That is pretty well known and big. Since that, I start to travel even in the wine region, meet the producers. So I know a lot of producer over there, and I visit pretty much all the wine region in New Zealand. So and it's fantastic, you know. Yeah. It's a it's a great place. As I, obviously, we are lucky. We are lucky. We live in a happy places. Yeah. It's a tiny, tiny punch of island to the massive ocean. Yes. Yes. Okay. I wanna say thanks to my guest today, Angelo Mineli, from, wine searcher dot com, who's their Italian wine specialist, thanks for for explaining all the intricacies of, of what appears like a fairly simple website, but what goes on behind the scenes is very, it seems very well thought out and actually quite complex. Trying to marry desire for wine with the product itself. So well done. You. Thank you. Thanks. It was really nice to us be nice to meet you. Me which kind of wine I love. Italian wine I love. Oh. You got to play for the phone team. You gotta say anything but lombardy and wine. So no I love Sagrantino. So you like strong robustness? Yeah. Tennin, reaching Tennin. Is that my role? All that sparkling wine you had when you were small? Probably. Yeah. But I love this kind. Sacramento Allianico, fantastic. And Tuscany, I have morelino discountsano. Really Tiny, new violin. Yeah. I mean, it's you've got a mix of, one hundred percent sangueza, then kind of Bordeaux style. What about the the Buladin? We talked to all about that, Sassica, that kind of area as well. The international style that's done really, really, to really high quality, do you like those wines? Probably, during my experience or during my life, I just shift with the unusual gray variety. I wanna say or maybe not so popular. Usually, I tend to go for, really, even in usual grader, I think, like, Tim Fila Del Melissa, or really, that is pretty far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about white wines? Things like, Vadicchio? I found some I don't a big knowledge about Verdicchio, but I try I taste some really good sparkling Verdicchio, really nice, interesting. But but I like even, for example, Latio Pickorino. So, yeah, initial and Vermentino. I like. And Oh, sure. Grillo, Grillo, Grillo, Grillo, Sicily. Sicily. Fantastic products. So and it's something I love the local grape writing because actually it's our identity, something that we can have, and it's something that you can't find anywhere in war. So I go for that. Okay. We're big fans. Rather than the big and the famous one. Big fans of Native Ygrene. She just social section or know why in search dot com. Yeah. And I'm and I'm really curious about biodynamic natural. We're gonna leave that for life. Yeah. So just don't bite and I'm kidding you. Wherever I go, I'll get off. You can we maybe next time you get into your music about biodynamics, because in New Zealand where you are, it's not that you have some great biodynamic producers, but it's it's, a little bit behind on, on organics. It's getting there. Yeah. It's a little bit bummed out still on it. Yep. Thanks. I will try and I will do the next one in Lombardian. Ah, yeah. When you are? So you need to consider that every capital month I'm here. So I will go ahead. Hello. Thanks for tuning into the Italian wine podcast. Our channels are SoundCloud, iTunes, Spotify, and Himalaya FM are also widely available on other podcast apps. Our official website is italian wine podcast dot com, and that's all one word. If you're using iTunes, feel free to rate the podcast or write a review. Thanks. This podcast has been brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey, discovering the true essence of high quality wine from Europe. Find out more on native grape Odyssey dot e u. Enjoy. It's from Europe. 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