Ep. 490 Vinka Woldarski

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Rebecca Lawrence taking the reins once again from Monte Walden. And today I have with me Vinca Waldarsky, the project manager of Priarat wine tourism, and an advocate for change in the wine industry, a little bit of a theme ongoing in some of the people we've been talking to recently. So Vinca, welcome to the podcast. We're such a pleasure to have you. Thank you very much, Rebecca. I'm really excited to be here. So you describe yourself, on your website as a, Chilean Canadian now living in Spain. So I was wondering if you could give our listeners a little bit of a background about How you came to be in Spain? What and what your wine journey has been so far? Sure. It's a long one, though. No. But We've got half the stage is yours. Okay. Perfect. So, I'm Chilean Canadian, my family and is from Chile. We moved to Canada when I was very young. So I grew up in Canada, and then I basically did all my studies in Toronto and university studies here in Toronto. And I studied something totally different for my undergrad, I did international relations. And after university, I basically spent a lot of, you know, a couple of years just traveling and working abroad and kinda seeing the world, which something that I really wanted to do. But there's always a bit of, like, a nagging feeling that I wanted to do something. You know, like, I just kinda wanted to find my career path, and I wasn't quite sure what that was, and it was definitely not, international relations. It wasn't something that I had really, you know, felt passionate about, you know, unit through university, I've always worked in restaurants. I've always worked as a server, kind of a part time job that allowed me to get cash and allow me to travel. And when I moved back to Toronto after a few years of traveling, I went back into that routine, then I started working in an office, and I was kind of doing the two things. And then eventually, it was just kind of a chance that I went on vacation to Portugal. And, you know, if you've been to Porto, it's just this fantastic city, and it's so vibrant and so lively, and, like, wine is part of everything there. And it was there that I got, like, the wine bug. Somebody told me that they produced wine, and I thought that was so cool. And I was like, yeah, I wanna do that too. I didn't know anything about wine. But when I went back to Toronto after that trip, I started doing the w set courses. So I did the w set level two. I thought it was great. Was like, yeah, I'm gonna do I'm gonna do more of this. And then, eventually, I did the level three in Napa Valley. So it was like a boot camp with the Napa Valley Wine Academy. And I thought that was awesome. I loved it. And, and then that gave me the courage to kind of like leave all my jobs because I was working quite a few jobs and take a sabbatical. I went to Portugal. Like, I started the blog at that time and basically just kind of absorbed wine, wine culture, got to know people just kinda tasted my way through the country. And then I was very fortunate to, win a scholarship to study, wine tourism innovation, which is an erasmus master's degree that happens in Spain in Terarona, in France in Bordeaux, and in Portugal and Porto. So you study in those three, three city, and then you have a working, about six months working period or working internship, which I did again in Portugal. So that kind of solidified everything that I wanted to do. I loved traveling. I loved wine. I loved being in Europe, and I loved being part of the wine culture here. And, basically, then just working with different organizations or different wineries, and eventually found myself back in Spain now doing my PhD, and also working with Peodat wine tourism. So this is where I am now. And also doing my my w set level four, the diploma. So, yeah. So you're you're tackling the WCT diploma, which is pretty intense in and of itself and a PhD. Yes. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah. So I have to ask obviously, I I have many questions, but what what are you doing on PhDN? Is it wine, or are you still taking, some time to explore other things, or if you've gone deep dive into the wine? Actually, it is, on wine tourism. So my PhD topic is sustainable tourism. And then I basically focus on, wine regions and how they can develop a sustainable wine tourism respecting and preserving, I bet the the landscape, but also kind of creating, innovative ways to attract worth. That's fascinating. That's such a great topic. I I know that Monty now will be wishing that he was here so that he could do a deep dive with you. So obviously, you've touched a little bit briefly on the blog. So tell us how you started bottled Bliss, and and how it's developed over the years. So I started bottled Bliss when I took my sabbatical year in Portugal, and it was basically just because I I kept meeting people. I was invited to different wineries or different regions. And I kinda wanted to put that information somewhere, and I thought, okay, I have to do something with this. I have to create something with it. And I was like, okay, a blog. Why not? I had never done blogging in my life. So I thought would be a great channel. And, yeah, so I started the blog and I basically featured producers or different regions, you know, some of my own personal reflections, and then I basically kept that for a couple of years. And I did leave the blog for a couple of years as well. So I stopped writing just because I felt like what I was writing was too repetitive, and I I wanted to provide a vision or an opinion of something that was different in the wine industry and not just repeat what most people are writing about. So I was like, and and also kinda trying to find my voice and my writing style because like I said, I had never really written anything. I mean, on a blog, so I wasn't quite sure. And then in this past year, there was this urge to kind of write a lot of the experiences I had had being a woman and wine and working in different roles in the wine industry during these last, five or six years. And that's when I started to rewrite, and that's when I you know, focused on, you know, telling my story, my experiences, focusing on sexism, focusing on how that affect women, and, hoping to, with that, be part of a greater movement that I know that there are a lot of women out there, and men as well in the wine industry that are, you know, working towards creating a more respectful, more inclusive, a safer industry, and I, yeah, and I feel like that's where I am now. So a lot of my recent posts have been a bit about that. And then from now on, I'll I'll look towards doing a different, you know, more more writing, also focused on, you know, women's empowerment and stuff like that, butching at a time, I guess. Yeah. I I have to say I I actually came across your your writing because of of the post that got a lot of attention, women, wine, and the uncomfortable conversation we need to have. I think that article really kind of shook up a lot of things in the industry because you were brave enough to say a lot of things that people have been experiencing for a long time. So what made you come to a point where you felt that it was necessary to particularly write that article. Honestly, it's because I felt really alone in my experiences, and I felt frustrated. So, you know, one of the great things about wine is that you have the opportunity to travel and and you know, if you're able to move outside of your comfort zone and find different places and, have different experiences, it's it's awesome. And I speak Spanish. So, you know, being in Spain is quite natural for me. I can work, and I can study in Spanish. There's no problem. And I was living in La rioja, and I did feel a little bit I I felt a bit like an outsider, and I felt a lot of the experiences that were have that I was having were repeating themselves over and over again. And I just couldn't find a way to kind of, like, come to terms with them or to cope with them. And I the only way I really knew how to do that was just write about it. And so I started writing these experiences, and also it just came from the fact that, you know, there's been a greater awareness of a lot of the, basically, abuses against women, violence against women, not not in wine, but in general in the world, and that was something that had kinda clicked. And I was like, you know what? I I need to I need to express how I feel, and I need to express the things that have happened to me. Even though they're not, like, massive things, like, you know, I'm at luckily, I haven't been in a situation that's been really dangerous or really unsafe, but there have been little things that obviously have shipped away at my self esteem, at my confidence that have made me really have to work hard about how I, basically, how I navigate in the industry. And so that's basically what pushed me to write it and to say, okay. I've I have these experiences. I have these feelings. I'm certain I'm not the only person that feels this way, but how can I how can I connect with other people and how can I feel less alone in in in this situation? And so writing about it was the the way I felt I could, take that on. Yeah. I think a lot of us as women in the industry were really impressed with the article, particularly because it has this focus on. It's not always just obviously, there are these horrible experiences that some women and, obviously, some men have in the industry but it's not just about the big moments, like you point out. It's it's about those little moments, those kind of ongoing things that chip away at your confidence. And and that certainly for me was one of the reasons I found the article very moving is that it was highlighting that this is really important as well to talk about this kind of ongoing small things that just accumulate and and really damage your your your vision of yourself, your vision of your career. So I imagine that you had quite a lot of people reaching out to you after this article went out. Have you had positive and negative outcomes? Is it? I I imagine it was quite scary initially to kind of put this out into the world and be so raw, be so open. Yes. I was quite nervous. But I I guess I didn't realize the impact it would have. I thought it was just gonna be, like, my little, you know, world. And then when I started seeing that more people were reading it, and then it was going around, and then and then people commenting, if that's where I was getting really nervous because I was like, oh, oh my god. People are reading it, you know. And, and that and then, you know, generally, I would say most of it was, like, overwhelming port of, you know, this is how I feel or I've experienced similar or, you know, god, I'm in the same place as you are. I I don't know what to do. So a lot of women reached out and and basically expressed that they felt same way or have been in that same position, not just in the wine industry, but also in the spirits industry. And and that was great. And that that was fantastic because I was like, okay. Few, you know, this this is good. This is good. I did get a bit of, negative criticism. You know, I wouldn't say it's backlash, but I did get a little bit of, yeah, maybe some very uncomfortable conversations were had. And some people were, like, this isn't, you know, this is silly or all these little things. You shouldn't bother about you know, stereotypes or just words. And and so, you know, kind of, just minor things. It wasn't huge, but obviously, it it did cause cause a little bit of, an effect with my inner circle as well because there are a lot of experiences that I talk about, you know, when I was studying or where I was working or different wineries and people who know me can kind of put the things together, obviously. And, obviously, that can cause a little bit of friction, but I felt that you know, I felt strong with what I had written, and I felt like it was important to say it. One of the main reasons was because I also feel like they were up until recently, there hasn't been any or very little discussion about this, maybe, in Europe, let's say. I know in the United States. They're like miles ahead. They've got all, you know, tons of women's network and support group and, women empowerment group. Maybe here, I just felt like, okay, well, where is that conversation happening? It's definitely not happening in the, in, in act in academia. It's not happening in the university because I was taught things that were incredibly sexist. And, you know, that's not cool. And taking these wine certification courses, they are so comprehensive and so thorough, but we don't talk about ethical issues. Which I think is really important, which is one of the missing pieces that really, some sort of professional practice about what it's like to actually work in the wine industry. Obviously, we focus on the business side of things, but do we focus on the human side of things? How how people are coping with different experiences of working abroad. Let's say they work in a different language or a different culture or being a woman in the industry or being a minority in the industry. So these are like the topics that I felt that were, you know, being addressed And I know now there are so many things happening, which is amazing. I think that's awesome. It just I think I feel like every week or every couple of weeks, something new comes out about a new initiative or somebody writes a new article or, you know, it relates experiences, and I feel like that's fantastic, you know, and and hopefully that will lead to to greater changes or at least more awareness. Yeah. Like you say in the title of the article, there there are a lot of uncomfortable conversations that we need to have, but I think by pushing ourselves to have them we can be this forced to sort of change and adapt the industry and and and really look at our practices. I think particularly your comment about wine education, is really interesting that, yes, we teach a lot about wine business, but the human side particularly, like you say, the ethical side, our sort of business practices just isn't really touched upon. And I I personally, as an educator, would really like to see a move towards that so that we can embed this in wine education going forward. So thinking about that kind of thing, obviously, here at the Italian wine podcast, we're we're within the industry, and we have a lot of contact with people in the industry. Do you have particular kind of words of encouragement, maybe guidance, that we can kind of take on so we can be better allies, all of us and everyone listening in the world of wine. You you have some personal kind of advice for anyone. I think that what I see a lot through the Italian wine podcast and, wine to wine. There were a lot of discussions and and and topics on diversity, on inclusion, on safety, and I think that's that's a step in the right direction, and I think that's definitely being an ally. I know it's a little bit tricky because I know sometimes there's people who want to help, but are in a situation that is risky for them as well, or, you know, these are just really uncomfortable conversations that that Not everybody is willing to take on and tackle, but what I've seen lately is that even very high profile, writers or, people who are well known in the industry are talking about the these issues, and I think that's really, really important because by creating more awareness, just by talking about the issue itself, I think that that puts that idea into people's minds that says it's not a problem that we can ignore if people are talking about it. If no one's talking about it, if these podcast aren't addressing these issues or writers aren't writing about what's happening in the community with the people, that work in the industry, then that's, you know, that's that's a scary thing because we're ignoring a huge section of what it is work in the wine industry. So I think definitely being an ally is is is listening to, to minorities, women, who have certain issues that that are quite important that need to be discussed And then, also finding ways perhaps to to educate as well to find solutions or minor solutions or maybe a little toolbox of what can be done in in maybe for certain organizations or things like that. I think that's really important what you said about this being a work in progress because I definitely see it that way. We're not we can't just, like, put a stamp on it, tick a box and say, okay, that's done. It's something that we need to continually be working on. And the kind of sexist behavior and abuse that you talk about in your article, isn't really necessarily unique to the wine world, but, and the problem is, however, that it seems that talking about it is almost more taboo or off limits in this industry. I wondered if you were if you were green and if you thought, you know, if that is the case, why that might be? Yes. I definitely agree that, you know, what I described is sexist behavior that exists in the world, basically. So stereotyping of women, or, you know, sexualization of women in in media or in ads or things like that is not is not just in the wine world and I got I I I got a few comments from people saying, you know, this is part of a a greater thing. This is not just the wine world. And I agree with that, and I think that's completely true. But I think one of the big issues is that it is such a male dominated industry, and it's very difficult for women to speak up about things that are making them uncomfortable or continuously seeing ads that, you know, depict women in a very sexualized way, to sell wine, that it it does become quite frustrating because one of the things is that, okay, so we live in a world that is quite sexist, but then in your professional life as well, you know, you're you're, you know, how do you cope with all the messages that you're getting about women, being sexualized objects or using their body to to sell wine or to persuade consumers or, you know, being in these situations where women are often exposed to comments, jokes, and things like that that are really uncomfortable. That's the issue that continues to be going on. And I think one of the big things about writing the article was for a lot of men, they didn't realize that within, you know, a short period of time, a woman can experience all those things back to back. So they can look at an ad and see, oh, okay. Another, you know, woman being portrayed in a sexualized way. And then they go and, you, you know, go to a tasting and they have to deal with these comments when, you know, people get a little bit too happy with wine. So I think one of the big things was the fact that from an from an outsider's perspective or or somebody who's never experienced these kinds of issues, they don't really realize that they happen so frequently, not just in your daily life, but in your professional life. And I think that's one of the big things that we have to be conscious of the fact that, you know, things these little things just add up. And in terms of allyship, one of the big things that a lot of, friends, male friends told me were like, you know, I'm really sorry if I ever did anything like that. I I didn't realize there's a lot of not knowing or there's a lot of, I wanna say ignorance, but basically just unawareness of the fact that, yeah, these comments are really uncomfortable. You know, you're sitting in a room full of, you know, mainly men and you have to deal with these jokes. And even though not all men feel the same way, there are men that want to say something. So there are a lot of men who they're really good kind men who want to be on women's side, but they're also exposing themselves to a very difficult situation if they have to stop their boss or their coworkers or somebody who has a little bit more power than them to say, hey, your comment was inappropriate. So it's it's such a delicate issue within the wine world because we're dealing with, obviously, this professional, accepted professional behaviors that have just been repeated over and over again. So, yeah, I think in the wine world, it's a little bit more tricky. And I think that's why a lot of the articles that have been written, the scandals that came out from the Courtmaster Somaliers kind of indicated just how huge this problem is in that unless we actually look at the extremes, not just assault rape, harassment. But if we look at the daily experiences of any woman in the industry, you'll see that there there are a lot of challenges that really need to be addressed and a lot of issues that really need to be addressed and and and having more of these articles come out is really important because it gives more insight and awareness to a lot of people who don't experience sexism or who don't understand what it is or who don't understand the feeling of it. Because with a lot of the sexist behavior, people get used to kind of ignoring it or, like, it's not a big deal, but then you realize, hey, that really that really does hurt me. That that that chips away at who I am. I'm I'm not, you know, what I see in this magazine. I'm not that. So, yeah, I I think that's that's really important in terms of allyship, and I'm I'm really happy to see that people are speaking up about every sort of, you know, in different areas of the industry, not just in, the restaurant industry, but maybe in marketing or maybe in, I don't know, sales, things like that. I think you're right that it's it's so completely embedded at every level. And for so long has been so normalized that this is the case. And when you come up in wine as a woman, you're you're just so used to it that almost you're almost expected to deal with this because that's how you progress in your career. And You know, if you if you stop someone from using that piece of banter or from making that comment, it makes colleagues think that, you know, you don't have a sense of humor. You can't take a joke, like, that you don't fit in in the industry. And this can be a real challenge, I think, to to women, particularly young women when they're starting in the industry, trying to pursue their career that they feel like maybe they can't speak out because it means that you know, they're maybe not gonna have the progression. And I also think, like you say, it's important for men in the industry. And again, young colleagues, young male colleagues in the industry, if if they don't feel like that they've got a platform where they can say, hey, I didn't think what you said was correct. It needs to be a a wholesale change across all of it exactly as you say, for men as as as well as as women. Right. Exactly. Totally. And and I think I think one of the big things for me was because I came into wine later in life. Like, in my I started in when I turned thirty, and I was coming from, you know, a country that's very open, very tolerant, you know, Canada's fantastic place to be, and I worked in different industries. And so coming into wine, and especially, you know, in Europe, I'm I'm sorry, but in Europe, there there are a lot of cultural patterns that are are sexist And so kind of distinguishing the two, which is like, okay, this is the culture, but then this is the culture of wine, but then this is my professional life. There's a lot of thing that that eventually overwhelm you that you say, okay. Well, I'm not used to this. I think if there's a lot of women coming into wine at a later age in their life and they have never experienced that many situations, it it can be shocking. You know, I know a lot of the women that I studied with, and I did my masters with, we're also in the same situation where they're like, I totally didn't expect this. You know, I love wine. I love being in this industry. I love studying wine, and and doing what I do, but I I never expected to be exposed to this kind of environment, which is very masculine, you know. So I think there there is even an unawareness, but for for women who enter the industry a little bit later as well where they're like, hey, this is quite bizarre. That that totally tracks with my experience because I'm exactly the same as you. I came into wine at thirty, having pursued an aca a career in academia and had had come from being someone who was, you know, well respected for what I did and and who was listened to, suddenly into the wine industry and and just fight having more education often than my male colleagues, you know, people wouldn't speak to me because I was I was the woman and I look younger. So I didn't have the kind of the image that they expected of someone that they would be talking to seriously about wine, and that was a real shock to me and a real hurdle. And I thought, gosh, like, I'm coming to this with already, you know, a decade and a half of experience in another industry. And how must this feel if you're coming in if you decide that wine's gonna be your passionate, you know, eighteen? Like, how how much greater that must feel when you don't have, you know, a little bit of industry experience somewhere else behind you to kind of make you go, oh, no. This isn't right. I think it's a real a real problem. And yeah, I think the it's very interesting to hear you talk about, yeah, the difference particularly between the European situation and maybe the the situation stateside and in Canada. And Right. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, you know, in in in the United States or in Canada. It just means that perhaps in my my career path has been one where I wasn't exposed to so much sexism insta until I started working in wine, and it happened to be when I moved to Europe as well. Obviously, I'm South American, so I understand the cultural differences, which as well is one of the reasons why, you know, I'm perhaps I'm a little bit more aware of the fact that, hey, that's that's not cultural. That's not a cultural behavior. That's a sexist behavior. That's abusive power. So, you know, in a sense, I've had that that ability to see it, and perhaps that's why it's become to it came to the point where I was like, I have to say something or I have to do something because it feels like I'm crazy. And I do not. I am. No. You're absolutely not. So thinking of Europe and before we wrap up our fantastic conversation today, it would be remiss of me not to talk to you about Italian wine because obviously this the Italian wine podcast, and you're in the middle of your your diploma studies, which, I know can be pretty intense. So I wondered, if you have any particular personal preferences in terms of styles, great varieties, regions of Italy that that maybe you've just started exploring and and are beginning to enjoy, or maybe you're really familiar with it. I'm I don't know. Well, in the w set course, I still haven't gotten to Italy. So not in Italy yet, but my sister lives in Italy. She lives in Bologna, so I visit her quite frequently and try the wines, and it's fantastic. But I think one of the regions that is really exciting for me is Sicily. I'm really enjoying a lot of the smaller producers there, a lot of the very distinct wines. They have that volcanic character to it, or that volcanic profile, which is really interesting and then very quite subtle and elegant. But for me, it only just feels like I feel like I have to move there. And then go explore it because it's just it's such a massive country with so much wine history and so many wine regions. And I'm totally looking forward to our our our chapter on Italian wines because It is a bit of my, like, an area that I don't know very well. I know Portugal well. I know Spain well. I know Spain well. I know France well, but Italy is like so many regions. So many great. But it is is really exciting to see what's coming out of it of Italy in in these, more, I guess, the smaller regions and things like that. Well, Vink, we'd love to have you in verona. I I did exactly that. I moved to Italy because of the wines because I love them. So I really hope that when when things get back to, quote, unquote, normal, We will see you here in verona and maybe be able to continue our conversation together. So where can our listeners find you on social media, where can they connect with you, where can they join? Maybe one of your pre rat wine tours, Definitely will right now. Things are a bit slow. But we'll hopefully get up and running again. So you can find me on social media. I'm on Instagram, Vinca Denica on Twitter, my blog as well. You can send me emails through my blog. If not, it's vinca dot woldarski at gmail dot com. And those are basically and LinkedIn as well. Those are basically the platforms I'm using. For those of you who don't already follow Vinca's blog, it's bottled bliss dot wordpress dot com. Go check it out, check out all her writing. I'm I'm a big fan. Thank you so much for joining us on the Italian wine podcast, me Rebecca Lawrence. I'll be handing back to Monte World and soon, for another episode. Fantastic. Well, thank you very much Rebecca for having me here and everybody at the Italian wine podcast. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast. Dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time. Chichi.