Ep. 233 Sarah Heller MW (RADIX) on the master of wine studies and her visual tasting notes

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. This podcast is brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey. Native Grape Odyssey is an educational project financed by the European Union to promote European wine in Canada, Japan, and Russia. And joy. It's from Europe. Hello. This is Latanna Weinco Castle. My name is Monty. All of my guests today is Sarah Hallock. Sarah's a master of wine. The youngest master of wine. Pini. We can in Asia. In Asia. You were in the world, weren't you? I was in the world for a brief moment. Master, why you bought four and a half? See? Yeah. No. Seven. That's not exaggerate. Okay. No. It's twenty nine. Okay. Is that's not like a burden to carry out. Are you kind of glad you've shrugged that one off or? I just I kind of wish we hadn't put it out in the press because now I'm constantly having to correct people, but it's it's fine. Hello. This is the Italian. I forgot my guest today, Sarah Allen, who was one the world's youngest master of wine, and now is a nobody. And now it's just completely irrelevant. Speaking workers dried up, and you you res you've No interest. Reduced to come on this podcast. Yeah. I mean, it's the only the only thing that would take me. Could relaunch your career or just sync it for good. Yeah. Perhaps. Turning point. Yeah. Well, depends how long we talk about this. Yeah. Well, if we carry on doing this, we'll both go fine. Okay. So just give me a little bit where are you from and your family background. Yeah. A little bit complicated for me, but, I was born in Hong Kong, but my parents, my mother there is Korean by birth but naturalized as US citizen when she moved there when she's ten. And my dad is half ethnically half German and half Chinese, but he was born and grew up in the US, moved to Hong Kong in eighty four, thinking they would be there for two years, and they're still there. So, How do they meet? At law school, their lawyers, n nothing really exotic or strange there. Is that where you were kinda slight geekiness comes from or I think so. I think so. Yeah. The the pedantry and and all of it. No. You're not allowed to do that. So, okay. So how did you get into wine? What's your first experience in wine? Yeah. I mean, it it was through food. So I, like many Hong Kong kids didn't, didn't learn to cook growing up. Why is that? We have help at home. So I actually grew up I was my favorite food growing up, but, later, learned to cook when I was at university. Toast. Yeah. Very skilled with a toaster. Spaghetti. I mean, you know, complicated things like that. Of course, it's completely with it. And I was like, wow, this is the coolest thing ever. Of course top chef was, like, very trendy at the time. And so It was a TV show, I guess, was it? Yes. Yes. And and I decided I was going to be a chef. So I was taking courses at the French Colinary Institute, on the weekend, you know, completely disregarding the fact that I think on my first day, I caught myself five times and my partner, who is a Israeli guy who, I think it's spent longer than normal in army and, was just absolutely disgusted with me. And then by, like, our forty hours after we'd we'd been been through this course together, he actually asked me out on a date. I didn't take him up on it. But, so I I like to think I improved. So do you wanna like, hands bleeding and Yeah. You know, like horrible blue band aids and the gloves just like filling up with blood. It's really impressive. So is he your husband this guy? No. Oh, okay. Oh, who that was gonna lead somewhere? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Sorry. Yes. Then? No. That that's a no. Okay. That's a firm no. But, no, from there, I had, I had thought that I would get into, to French cuisine, right, being the French culinary Institute was planning on taking half a year off from university to go, take take the six month course at the French culinary Institute, but my parents were not so into that, because they were already paying fifty thousand dollars a year for me to go to Yale. And Flip that one in. And they were, yeah, not not She got into yeah. That's like, you know, that's just a little minor detail. Oh, well, it's not particularly relevant to the wine story because, always sort of a lingering source of envy with all the, sort of oxbridge people who have their competitive wine teams. Yale is not a great place to learn about wine. Why not? Because you're not supposed to drink until you're twenty one. Oh. And of course I didn't convincing. Like like all good Hong Kong kids, I I had a way around the, the more challenging aspects of alcohol acquisition. So So what were you drinking then? That you weren't supposed to be? It wasn't like liquor or spirits. It was wine? Yeah. Well, I stayed well away from the the sort of punch you would find at parties because I didn't want to end up in hospitals. So my theory was, in life, which had always had a case of champagne in the fridge. As you do? Yeah. And it it made me extremely popular, among my housemates. Seriously? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, bad day. Open a bottle of champagne. Good day. Open a bottle of champagne. Great. Yeah. No. I I I was I was sort of starting to dabble in wine, but I wasn't I wasn't taking it that seriously. Then, so kind of deciding, what I was gonna do instead of culinary school after my parents bulked at the, I think, thirty eight thousand dollars that it cost to do the six month course. And the champagne bill. The champagne bill. Yeah. It's substantial. And, they were like, why don't you go work in a restaurant, which I think was probably one of their wiser suggestions ever. Nowhere in front would take me and they're like, she she is twenty years old or whatever I was, nineteen, twenty something. And, you know, had had no experience. Meanwhile, Italian Italian restaurants, I managed to to do internship in Hong Kong. And then they were like, why don't you just go to Italy? It's like, but I don't have a visa. So, Don't even. No. They're absolutely not. Show. So what did you end up? Intern, actually. Yeah. Very nice. My parents fully sort of helped me try and locate some potential restaurants. My mother, I think, because, through the Korean network, managed to find a restaurant in Rome, and that was owned by a Korean woman, and she sent the message to my mother. It was like, she's welcome to come, but she must know that there will be no there will be no, you know, tourism. There will be no wine tasting. It's all gonna be work. She's not gonna have any holidays. And then my dad helped me find, this restaurant in Turin. And this message from the chef is like, we will go every weekend to the to the wineries in Piamonte and in Tuscany, and it will be be beautiful. So I guess that's where I'm going. And did did they do that when you were there? Yeah. Absolutely. That was pretty cool. Absolutely. Do they have like friends? Why make of friends then? The chefs? Yeah. So like their suppliers as well, I guess? So where did go there. Well, what was the reason that inspired you most that you visited on those little free weekends? Barbara, next week. Right. So not too far away then. No. Not too far away. Although, actually the very first wine that I tasted with, was Ruke. Right. Which I've, like, never really gotten over. My my dad's obsessed with it red red. And rough flavor profile. So it's an aromatic red. So it's like it's got kind of a rose, really floral, aromatic profile, and then sort of red berry, dense. Yeah. Yeah. It's very charming. I think, And brought back from extension by the local priest? Yes. Yes. Yes. As so many great varieties around Italy, nearly nearly disappearing and then being saved by one dedicated person. Okay. So a little discovery. So what was the next step after the Turin, Piamonte, Ruge, Nebulaiola, fest, and cooking? What was the next step? Yeah. So, actually right before I left, for Turin, I happened to at a party in New York and met this woman who had a wine importer wine import business in New York, domain select, and their head office in Europe was in Turin. So then when Vin Italy came around, they're like, well, let's meet up at Vin Italy, and we'll introduce you to some of our suppliers, and I'm gonna show you around. And my chef was going to take me about at the last minute he got sick. So he sent me by myself to Vin Italy to represent the restaurant, which was hilarious. But Yeah. I, Which year was that then? Oh, two thousand nine. Still that long ago. Two thousand nine. So you're gonna were you kind of getting more and more familiar with the way of the way that Italians do things and getting used to that? Yeah. Yeah. So my Italian quite a challenge initially. Indeed. Yeah. So my Italian was reasonably developed at that point, which was always fun to surprise people because literally nobody expects it, and you can frighten people when you've been eavesdropping on them for a while. But, yeah, the the really unfortunate one though that my chef instilled in me was, this phrase, real men don't spit that I just sort of parroted endlessly. In Italian. Yeah. As I as I went to visit them at Bmittedly. So I got more drunk than I've ever been in my entire life. At and at five had to be decanted into a taxi and just like, I I don't remember where I was staying, but that was that was rough. I can't imagine you're doing that. I honestly can't imagine you're doing that. Yeah. Tom student. Yeah. No. Very, very Is that the kind of Jacklyn High and type type set up, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it is. Promise. Yeah. As anybody who was with me in San Francisco, the MW seminar will know. So you're a bit of a wild child underneath then? Have my moments. Yeah. Not anymore. You'll be No. You're completely responsible now. Yeah. Mother of, you know, one and a tiny bit. And on on it's in the in progress then? Yes. In progress. Okay. So after them so they obviously cheer in next to cheer in Luca, Vobanesco, next step. Right. So this import company, when I got back to college, I started working or interning two days a week, at domain select, and while I was still Oh, yeah. Because I had another year. Mhmm. Yeah. Graduated. I thought I was going to stay in New York and continue working for them, but then they sent me to a couple of wineries over the summer. The first one was in provence on Remilon. It's just Bandol, isn't it? No. It's just provence. It's it's not, specific. They're they're actually often make wine outside the AOC system. Okay. And then Venice Laune Verzalle in, Monsanto. And Oh, that's okay. It's back in. Somewhere in Germany. The reason why I don't remember is Well, oh, we'll become clear. The reason why I don't remember is while I was in, France, I fell into a concrete tank, fractured my spine and had to go home. You hadn't yet been out on the lash tonight before? No. I really I truly had not. I was up in the cellars, hosing everything off, and I had discovered a clump of spiders that I vindictively wanted to remove, from a corner because they had been crawling all over me while I was out there. And they did. Yeah. Because I stepped backwards into a manhole. I landed in the tank, fractured a vertebra, hospital for a week, in a course of for four months, physiotherapy for ten, but totally fine now. So Oh, we've got I've got a fractured vertebra. Yeah? Yeah. But not from falling through a in a tank, car crash. Anyway, not I wasn't I know I wasn't driving. Okay. So next step. So you're you're getting some a lot of European experience while still maintaining your, sort of, your kind of secret kind of party person. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because I've I've only met you for the first time the last couple of days. And as only now when we got the tape running, we're finding out the true character behind you, the the the the angelically faced pin up person for the masters of wine, the model student, and you're you're a kena, you're, you know, caining it and you're you're you're you know, devil may care winemaking. Yeah. A bit reckless. I have to say is, after after the fall into the manhole, I did I did become significantly more cautious in general. So, so I ended up back in Kong recovering ended up staying there just because at that point, that was two thousand ten. So it was two years after they'd suspended wine duty. So everybody was talking about wine. So wine was just pouring into the country from foreign shores. Absolutely. And meanwhile, New York was still just kinda stagnant and sad, and became less and less appealing to go back. So I stayed. Initially, I was trying to work with a couple of different Italian wine importers since that was my my my background. But as as so often happens with these small businesses, there were just chaos. Just I started working for somebody and moments later, he left the company and tried to poach me away, and it was just just all a bit mad. So I am kind of as a part time job started working with Deborah Myberg, also a master of wine based in Hong Kong. First in first is one of three women who, passed at the same time in two thousand eight. When Deborah Why been wine media or something, isn't that a company? Myberg Wine Media. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. So started there initially you just sort of part time, but gradually, I think it was a trip to VINexpo and Deborah convinced me that I should work for her full time. It was great. So she's importing wine, isn't she, as well as? Nope. What's she doing? No. So definitely not importing wine. She she was quite adamant about a couple of things. She would not would not sell wine was not planning on working, with individual brands. Although now she now she is just because her organization is much larger. Now it's really much more of an events company what they do as well as education. They have a school. But at the time, we were doing all kinds of different things. So you're a good experience? Yeah. Yeah. No fantastic experience. Two two things that sort of stick out. One was writing research about different Chinese wine markets mainly. So we started with Hong Kong, but then we did each of the cities, Shanghai Beijing, Beijing. Later, we did Singapore was obviously obviously not part of China, and Taiwan. So this information is useful for exporters. Is that right? Yeah. Useful for wineries trying to get into the markets. So light onion wineries, French wineries, whatever one. Precisely. Yeah. So that was really interesting. And then the other piece that was quite cool was, we developed an education program for big duty free retailer. I think I can say what it is. DFS. And, and it was supposed to be implemented for their sort of eight thousand staff, including the people who work the cash, you know, the cash register. So everybody, I don't really know. I didn't follow-up, to see to what extent it ended up being used. They've had a lot of changes since then. Was that where you got the wine education that the idea of Yeah. Right. Okay. Course development. I really I really liked the idea of, we we had, a couple of different tiers that we developed. We had the basic, which was for people who like, don't even don't even have the remotest concept of white wine. Yeah. Red of white wine. Is it red or is it white? Okay. So I say that sort with the first step. So you you catch them with the base of, you know, the kind of bottom feeders if you like and and give them good. No. No. I'm not talking about it, but give them the confidence because it is very confident in your mind. And then you've got a sort of higher tier where you're dealing with people that already have a really good knowledge about wine, but you'll just refine finding that Yeah. To make their businesses more effective and and Absolutely. And and the thing that we were trying to bring to it that I think makes it unique from WCT was that it was really sales focused. So it was about how how do you how do you convince people that they wanna this wine, not that wine? How do you get people to trade up these kinds of things? Using talking to them, getting their own experience of of what their customer interactions were like presently and was just really, really great insight. They enjoyed that a lot. Okay. Next. Next. After so I left Deborah, basically, because I was partway through the mastervine program. And at that point, it was Did you find it tough or was it just a breeze for you? No. So every I think everybody, most people find it tough. I mean, I think there are a couple people for whom. It's just no. It was definitely something I I wanted to and had to work at, but I also knew that I wanted to pass it quickly. I didn't wanna spend ten years, taking it, taking it, taking it right place. You can really get your head down and just and just beaver away and just send out the information. Yeah. Yeah. I'll churn it out and then forget it. Hopefully, hopefully not forgotten too much, but absolutely some of it has certainly gone into the ether. So I was I was in my second year, and I knew that in order to get through the theory. I needed to effectively develop my own textbook because they give you a syllabus and it's sort of like Half a pain or something. Yeah. Pretty much. It's it's like vine genetics, soil. And it's it it doesn't it's not a lot of meat there. And so I created my my textbook went out and collected all the examples that you need to have, and they need to be current. They just don't wanna use other people's examples. This is this is immense collection process. I probably went overboard, to be honest. I I had I had just way way way too many examples. What was your chapter like on shoe sizes of female winemakers on the thirty fourth Meridian. Minimal. Yeah. Minimal. Yeah. Yeah. I had trouble finding data on that as well, actually. So, yeah, I thought I was anyone. Yeah. These are great current examples. Yeah. Okay. We can work on it. Yeah. So you got through that. You do did your own so basically you wrote your own kind of course, basically. So wine education fee is also a big thing, isn't it? Both receiving it and giving it? Yeah. Yeah. Completely. And I think it is some of that some that rigor in structure from from creating my own textbook as it were, that has When you get on a plane Yeah. Do you do you like write your own book on if I need to fly this thing? You know, or You joke. I did learn to fly. I didn't learn that. I promise you. I didn't I have a team of researchers here at the Italian wine court because eight people full time. I did. And there was an unfortunate incident where I realized partway through my first flight that I had had a drink fairly recently. On your own? No, fortunately, my my teaching pilot, my instructor. He was bossing the whisky. Right? Yeah. No. We didn't do it while we were actually in there, but that sounds worse than I meant it. No. I know. We let it out. We let it that one out. I guess room space would have been a slight issue as well as navigation. But it led to this discovery that there actually are very, very large loopholes in terms of, like, I was not asked for any ID. I could have been a terrorist. What is it for flying a plane? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you weren't there. No. Incidentally. But, yeah, I kind of wrote this expose, because the the whole thing was for a class, and he knew that. I didn't name him or shame him or anything, so he was fine with it. Okay. Anyway, total aside. That's alright. That's all that's all good stuff. So, obviously, multi talented. So, I mean, education. So what are your what is your day to day job now. How would you describe it? I know you'd have several strings to your bow, but what would you call it? It's not very consistent. The one thing that is kind of keeping me busy day to day other than being a parent is is this new thing with the the visual tasting notes that I'm doing? Right. Just just give us a bit of feedback on that? Or is it skinny on that one? Background on what that is. So it's a it's it's not a totally novel idea, by any stretch of the imagination. There've been illustrated tasting notes, by various people for a while. But the thing that was always sort of dissatisfying to me about wine tasting notes written ones and otherwise is that they're just very literal, especially I'd seen a lot of images of like bottles surrounded by plums and flowers and things like this. I it sort of gave the impression that if you took all of those things and put them in a blender, you would get the wine. And that's just very much not the case. So what I was trying to do was create something that's more evocative, you know, sort of impressionistic that talks about wine as an experience over time. So they are static at the moment, but I'm probably going to animate them. They're these digital images collages of mainly photographs now, but it used to be more things that I'd painted by hand and then photographed. And it's sort of the they're meant to be red from top to bottom. So there's a shape and sort of outline that that gives an impression of the general body and structure of the wine. Right? Does it start out kind of meek and then become really robust in your mouth or or what what kind of path does it follow? And then if a wine is giving me really specific or references, so like raspberries. If that's immediately what comes to mind, I will have literal images of raspberries. But if it's more just a sort of general sense of bright red fruit, I'll have bread bowls or something that kind of evokes that sense without being quite so literal. So that's what it means. Red bulls or red bulls. Red bulls. To red bulls? Or red bulls? Definitely not the caffeinated beverage. Okay. I have to red red balls. Yes. Okay. Bulls that are red. Yes. Yes. Brown cylindrical things that are Yeah. Colored. Yeah. Verical, spherical. But, yes. That's spherical. Yes. Okay. What numbers if you got a wine that satanic, do you like, do the loblongs? Well, so generally the the the texture of the wine if it's if it's heavily tan, it comes out in the thickness of the line. So if it's if it's a line where the tannin sort of builds every time, the line will be thin initially and grow thicker as you as you get to the bottom of the the image. So when, your second child is born, already written a little book about the kind of food he or she will eat are gonna obviously not just your milk, but I mean, it's like Right. K today is, you're gonna have mumps of my mum's milk. It's getting a little white dot and it's gonna get a bit bigger because it's gonna screamy and then it's getting a little bit narrow when it runs out. Is that what's gonna happen? I Before kid, I'll be lucky that, mate. Oh, good god. Who is this woman? Yeah. Can I go back inside? Yeah. No. I I haven't I haven't yet applied this visual tasting note. It could be money. Concept to other products. Because you could you could get, like, from not just that like the young youngest master wine, like like the kind of embryonic embryo real kind of right. So trained from birth Mhmm. To to be able to shape, describe the shapes and the and the textures and and the flavors of whatever it is they are smelling and consuming. Yeah. It is a big market for that. Yeah. Yeah. Clear clearly an idea in there somewhere. Yeah. No. The the my first son is very interested in wine, I have to say. I kinda get the feeling doesn't have a lot of choice. No. I mean, it I'm I'm definitely not trying to to put it on him. In fact, if anything the opposite, but the guy will just, like, scurry up to me, grab my wine glass and kind of try to bury his face in it. I know. He's a man. Okay. Yeah. No. It's, it's special stuff, wine? What can you do? So you're quite you're quite an entertaining lady because you you're always smiling, even though you're a bit of a nerd and a and a sort of geek. Right. But I mean, but you have got that devil make, you know, just throwing yourself off a tank and just deciding to break various important things in your body. Yeah. No. I mean, it was absolutely a decision that I needed to step backwards. Did you actually pass off as some kind of horrible accident? Yeah. Yeah. So you got the sympathy vote as well as the curiosity. Yeah. Well, it was actually all just an effort to get the corset that I ended up having to work. Right. To be fair with spectacular. Laundry. So it was a really segwaying gift from, baby grows to, Well, no. I mean, this this thing I I am I do think every once in a while about digging it out. It was in France, they make very cool, like, plastic corsets if you break your back because you've open your bag. I have you. So you didn't have to wear one of these things. I did add a, one made of material, yeah. Oh, not a nice Oh, not a plastic one. You missed out. What? I'm gonna bring my back again? Yeah. I mean, since see what happens. Yeah. Now this thing was very cool. It was plastic and then it had black and white photographs of the skyline of New York on it. And women in Hong Kong would approach me all the time. I'm like, where did you get it? Is that McQueen? Is that yeah. Did you just have to break it back first before I can from time to time until I got sick of it. And then I was just like, just sort off, you know. Okay. So you onto Italian wine. Yes. I'm not gonna ask you for your favorites, but I'm not actually gonna ask you, I'm gonna ask you for your favorites. So I give you desert island. I'm gonna say three wines, one white, one red, and one of your choice could be you wine, a a a passita wine or whatever. What are you gonna say with you? Okay. Vericchio, probably metallica rather than Yassy. Mhmm. Why metallica roll? That's a Vadicchio white wine from the Marquay from the Adriatic coast? Yes. Made with a Vadicchio. Yeah. By? Yeah. Matellica is just a bit more extreme. Because it's a bit further in land and a bit good on a little higher. It's cooler, higher. All of those things. And it's just, yeah, more acidic, more sharp. All of the things that align with margins. Okay. Good choice. So that's probably Italy's one of Italy's, if not the greatest white wine. Sure. So you're not not gonna like going for the elitist stuff. Are you serious? Oh god. Yeah. No. No. I think it's a great I'm I'm just, you know what? If you ask me, that would be my choice as a white wire. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. Honestly. This was not scripted, by the way. Okay. So you're red? Okay. If I had to drink it Yeah. You're gonna have to move around. Yeah. Okay. So then it's probably it would normally be a barolo, but I just have to sit around waiting for ages. So I think, yeah, maybe in that case, maybe gimme. I don't know, something. Yeah. That's quite left field. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Still not be able to. Yeah. But I mean, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not a bit kind of tough? No. No. I don't think so. I I enjoy it. I enjoy it young and old. It's the kind of thing that yeah. Okay. And it's and your your fun wine fizz or, French of Corta Corta. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Kinda kind of, What about, like, a Lambroosco, a little bit of So, I mean, there are definitely lambroosco's that I like. I just don't know about every day on this desert island. I just want something a little bit more refreshing. You need a refrigerator as well already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, about a layer of a pacita as well when you try it as a, a dessert wine? I'm gonna get killed, but I I just don't love sweet wine, particularly. My my one exception. How did you go in the MW exam? It must have shoved a couple of, you know, sweet wines in there. Oh, absolutely. But You just stick your hand out. Not tasting that. Well, no. It makes it simpler because you only take a few sips, and then you're you're less likely to second guess yourself. Oh, what about an Amalbello medium, medium, drum, medium, sweet wine? Well, I want to make my my exception to the sweet wine is Tokai, which I absolutely adore. Sweet. I'm hungry. Yes. Yes. Not not from Italy. Sorry. Okay. Maybe okay. Let's pass it to the pantelli. Yeah. That one. Huge production. Oh, you know. That's a sweet. Give them all. Sweet muscat that was from the island of Pantelleria. Mhmm. But you end up there? Yes. This is true. Does it happen? This is true. And I wouldn't there would be no transport costs. It would be great. Yeah. Ever ever the, you know, supply chain management, you know, if you do that like the fridge, you know, like, they're in the house, you know, like, inventory, a little bit low on milk. The cream is gonna go out of date in two days. No. I'm nowhere near that organized and afraid. I kind of really don't believe that. Oh, no. You'd have to see the state of my fridge. You'd come around. It's a lot more ago, though? Yeah. It's in Hong Kong, isn't it? Indeed. Yeah. That's quite long. Where'd he go? Just to check on somebody's fridge. Premium. Yeah. Put bit excessive. Mhmm. Yeah. Global warming. I'm not gonna. Yeah. Give me a medal for environmental responsibility. Anyway, so we've segways, to I don't know how to enclose this one out there. You know, master of wine, bone breaker. All of those things. To artists. My own bones, paper, not anybody else's. Yeah. Mom Yep. Communicator edgy Gator. Yeah. University student, letting her head down quite a lot by all accounts. From time to time. But now very responsible. Oh, yes. Middleage, early middle aged. Middleage of How old are you? That's terrible question. Thirty. Oh, you you do grow in all like Peter Pan. You don't stay, like, seven when you're at when you're busting master of high festival night. Wouldn't they have you? Did they, like, have a special like swings and stuff and slides? But when you were studying that you could go out. Yeah. Yeah. You know. A little crush kind of fingers for you. Yeah. Yeah. I know where I could take naps and everything. Very accommodating. When you have lunch, they pat your back. So Yeah. To digest everything. Yeah. So you don't get it all. Yeah. Actually, that would've been helpful. Did they serve the wine, like, on the lemonade pour into an ISO glass? They just give you that little bottle that you could No. That's horrible. Could you please you wanna are the youngest but master are? Yeah, I'm okay with it. To be honest, it's, it's nice to be able to talk about other things. Yeah, which I haven't been doing for the last couple of years. Anyway, Sarah, thank you very much indeed for coming in today. Super and, you know, for Greek, you're actually a really good company. Oh, thanks. Yeah. And, that was a horrible comment, wasn't it? No, you are. I mean, you're a nice geek, though. You are. You know, you're great, fine. You're always smiling. Oh, wow. And you're a fantastic speaker as well. You know, you don't worcester word. You really are very good speakers. So the MW's, I think very, very lucky to have you. And I'm sure you will inspire, not just students of wine in general, but students of wine in Italy, because you're a great communicator, and you always have a smile on your face, which is very important. Thank you. You. Nice to meet you. Lovely. This podcast has been brought to you by Native Grape Odyssey, discovering the true essence of high quality wine from Europe. Find out more on native grape Odyssey dot e u. Enjoy. It's from Europe. Follow Italian wine podcast on Facebook and Instagram.