Ep. 1423 James Marshall | The Next Generation

Hey, guys. Check out Italian wine unplugged two point o brought to you by Mama jumbo shrimp, a fully updated second edition, reviewed and revised by an expert panel of certified Italian wine ambassadors from across the globe. The book also includes an addition by professoria Atilushienza. Italy's leading vine geneticist. To pick up a copy today, just head to Amazon dot com or visit us at mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Welcome to the next generation. I'm Victoria Chacha, join me as we chat with young Italian wine people shaking up the wine scene. We're going to geek out on a grape or grape fam and hear about all the wild wine things are gusseted and up to. From vineyard experiments to their favorite wine bars. Welcome back to another episode of the next generation on the Italian Wine podcast. Hope you are feeling so well today. I am feeling pretty groovy today. I'm very caffeinated. I do not have a drop of wine in my system yet. Hope you do though, or you plan to. Either way, we have some fun things today to pair with your coffee wine cleanse, I don't know, from wine. Hopefully not. Today, today, today, we have a lovely lovely guest. James Marshall from Tenoutale Chania, a wonderful winery in luchignallo in Tuscany. We are going to chat with him about all the fine things that he is up to, as well as all things happening in his special little nook of Tuscany. Little spoiler alert, he isn't Tuscant as you can guess from his name, but I will not tell you his story yet. You can either skip my blabbing about Great varietals to find out faster in a couple minutes, or you can stay here and learn a little bit more about, a fun little Tuscant grape James has not grabbed this grape. I just feel like, you know, we have to talk a little bit more about grapes other than San Jovese and Tuscany, and not to say that we don't, but We have to give a little bit more love to the must know grapes of Tuscany, besides Sando visit, and we're taking this again from the Italian wine Unplug two point o book that you can also have in your hands like I do. Available now. Let's go into it. Okay. So what grade do you think we're gonna talk about today? I'll give you a minute to guess. Got an idea? Oh, I'm telling you, it's Maumulo. So Maumulo is a grade typically found in Tuscany. And is used as a frequent blending partner with drum roll San Jose, especially in the vino nobela de monte buciano blend. You heard of that one before? If you haven't, Do a quick Google search. It's pretty famous. The name mamulo comes from the word mamola, which refers to the color violet and the flower of the same name. This grape is considered to be the parent of palaera Nera. And it might be a relative of Chilegolo in San Jose grape varietals. You'll see that often, you know, a lot of grapes grown or, well, originating in the same area. Usually, have some close relationships being other grapes found in Duscany, and going into the vineyard now with momolo. Back to what I was saying before, momolo is an ancient grape variety. It has many biotypes, which are generally not separated in the vineyards. And as indicated by the name, momolo wines, are defined by their violet aromas. Now we're moving into the glass. So if you were to have mauna lo in the glass by itself, which is usually not, you would find it blended, but if you were, it has violet aromas with flavors of black cherry raspberry on the palette. It actually has unstable and those cinnons and produces light colored wines that tend to oxidize easily, which is why it is typically used in blends in only small quantities, as I said before, and those cinnons are what produce those colors, the richer colors in wine. And finally, he produces still in dry red wines, which he probably got from before. So now. Time to bring on our lovely lovely guest James Marshall, straight from Zeno Delicini in Luchignano, in the province of Arretteza in Tuscany. Now you can find him. And here he is. Charles James. Welcome back. Oh, that's right. Nice nice to speak. Yeah. So I can say this that, me and James talked before, and then we had a technical difficulty. And now we're back, which I'm happy about because life has changed a lot since, what was it, December or January when we last chatted? Yeah. I think it was probably my fault, the technological error, but, Yeah. It's nice to have a second second get this. I mean, no. No. It's it's my fault, but we don't need to go into that. And, you know, I expect, you know, we're the next generation. We're supposed to be the ones that really know how to deal with technology, but I often find it's quite the opposite sometimes. Yeah. Me too. So how was your Easter? Easter was really nice. So I went back and saw my family in, in Belgium. And, yeah, it was a lot of cousins, and then occasionally, relations who you've never met before, and, yeah, all the different generations, and we have a lot of new members, some some new babies in the family. So it's it's very nice. And obviously lots of chocolate because it's it's Belgium. So as everyone can hear, James is not Italian, his Belgian, but a Belgian Tuskin now are by adoption of I don't know. I didn't even say that gosh. Trying to put words together. You now live in Tuscany and have a winery. That is what I'm trying to say. Yes. Tell us a little bit about that. Well, it was, so my granddads started the the winery about twenty twenty years ago. I mean, and he'd been living in Tuscany for a long time before that even, and there was this little, there was a very small plot of vines, which, I mean, it it was badly planted with not great plant material, but, He always said that it had it had been a famous vineyard, a long, long time ago, long before him. And when he retired, he decided he would, replant replant the vineyard. And, and when he got a bit older and couldn't really manage things anymore. I took over about three and a half years ago. And I was I was not, I was not, you know, being trained or I didn't I didn't sort of go to Inological school or anything. I was doing my doctor in the UK. And, yeah, but when the opportunity came up, I have started spending more time there, and I just got sucked in and and moved there, speaking zero Italian and then know anyone, but, in Tuscany, very quickly you become, you've become part of the local community and and, and it's been it's been really nice. It's been very nice. I'm curious to know, like, when you first moved there, like, what was that like for you culturally? Do you have any, like, funny moments when you trying to settle in to the small little town, as the Belgian? Yeah. Well, yes. Because it was quite a strange arrival because about a month after I arrived, I had a few people in the village. Asking me about about kangaroos. And, what had happened was is that another Belgian, I think there are probably two Belgian in, you know, a huge area, but the other Belgian who I'd actually don't know in the area had had these kangaroos, and they'd escaped during COVID. And they were living in the woods around the village. But, of course, in as soon as I arrived, everybody thought I was the Belgian who'd released the kangaroos. And, yeah, and so these kangaroos were living around our vineyard for about three or four years. One of them has recently passed away, sadly, but I think another one is still running around the woods. And it was a huge thing for the village because it was in all the national newspapers. And, and I was wrongly identified as the as the person who had let the kangaroo loose I can imagine that conversation because you, like, at that point, probably Italian was not very good, and they're asking if you have a kangaroo. And you're like, am I understanding this correctly? Are you asking me if I have a kangaroo. Like, I It was exactly like that. It's like, no. No. I can understand your question. I'm just I think I'm tripping out. Oh my gosh. Have you ever seen these kangaroos? I I've seen them I've seen one kangaroo one. And I was just in the vineyards and and below the vineyard. I just you just heard sort of this a lot of leaves being moved around in in the forest next to the vineyard and suddenly. So a little little kangaroo. They're not the biggest kangaroies. I was expecting something really big. They're quite small kangaroos, but they're still, I guess. Yeah. And it just hopped out the words that it had a look around. I don't think it was scared of us because it sort of licked us and then and then it retreated back into the woods. But we were just impressed at how easily they were surviving in in a completely new environment. Kangers in Tuscany. I would have never even thought at all. I I don't even know what I would do if I saw a kangaroo in Italy in general. I I why? Did you ever find out why they brought kangaroos there in their Belgian? So Yeah. I Do you know the story? I'm trying to piece it together, but we I don't actually know the people who who had them. I think they sort of had some llamas and some kangaroos in a in a fit in a field because I don't know why, but I'm not sure what that motivation was. I it just, like, I'm gonna move to Tuscany, and then I'm gonna have kangaroos and llamas. It just you know, you know, everyone has their own dream, James, I guess, I guess. And sometimes you have to take the the blame for somebody's very, very bold dream. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. I mean and so just for the, listeners to understand, you are in Luchignano. Correct? Yeah. Luchignano's a a very small and a very traditional. It's a hilltop village, and the streets go in the surf, you know, in in circles that get get smaller and smaller. It's very it's very beautiful village, but it's not the most touristy one, and it's right in there. It's in the center of Italy pretty much. It's not near the coast. It's in central Tuscany, and it's quite a sort of Hily mountainous area with a lot of forest. And what makes luchignano special to you? Like, what do you love about it? Well, I think it it's wild that I mean, apart from certain specific architectural features, mean, it has this one staircase which looks very modern, but it's from the renaissance, and it's the staircase going up to the to the sort of I mean, it's one of those villages that has a ridiculously huge, cathedral. For the population, but it has this very interesting staircase that leads up to the to the cathedral. And I think it's a really interesting feature because it looks kind of like a, sort of mid century piece of design, but actually it's It's really old. But, I mean, apart from that, I think what's what's what's nice in the village is, I mean, it's, it's managed to stay. It's very beautiful, but it it's not too it's not very touristy. It doesn't get too crowded. And there's still a very community life. And that's really nice. It's I mean, it's quite an old. I mean, the average age is probably over sixty in the village, but everybody knows each other. And, and everyone's very, very welcoming, and there's a lot of village gossip and Oh, the gossip? Yeah. It's it's a very nice place to live, and I came from from the city and, yeah, and from towns. And it's it's a strange thing being in a place where everybody knows you, and the rhythm of life is determined by by the village and not, you know, by the news or anything. So it's it's it's a big change in this, but it's a very nice place. I highly recommend Lucignano, and we have a great mayor at the moment who is doing lots of things to make the village, you know, a more attractive place for for people to come visit. So, yeah, please come to the channel. You're, like, bring the youth. Come on the next generation. Come hang out. Oh my gosh. I'm sure that that sounds so I oh, also, I just wanna say, like, I hear the the the birds and whatnot in your the background and I'm actively jealous of that piece in nature because all I have is the construction of the Italy happening. Well, construction, the deconstruction of the Italy happening behind me. It's such a contrast I'm like, maybe I should go to Litching Yano, like, tomorrow. But on that note, I think I don't know. This has me thinking a little bit about, you know, Tuscany and, how it is really different where where you go in the region. And since the region is so famous, it's, you know, one of the top most famous wine regions in Italy if, you know, massing it all together, of course. But given that you, you know, you're not from there. Of course, you have that that, love for it from your grandfather, But what makes that part of Duscany different than, you know, let's say, I don't know, Sienna or some an another area in your perspective? Oh, that's a that's a good question. I mean, I think that in to start off with what makes it Not different. Is it is it this kind of little commune communal life that you have in in Elochiniana where the community is very close knit. I think it's something that you find a lot in Tuscany, and it's a really nice part of Tuscany. It I think it's one of the things that explains also, you know, that why the wine culture is is so good in in in Tuscany. But I think what makes our area special, if we move on to, onto the winemaking side I mean, one thing that's interesting about the area is historically, and we look, you know, really a long time back. It was just as famous an area as as other areas that are more famous in Tuscany, select the county classical or or Montecino or something. It was a long time ago, very famous, but in the twentieth century, in Italy, you had a lot of social upheaval and a lot of changes, and that, you know, actually in the whole of Tuscany, the wine culture, changed into a more of a mass production culture. And when, producers started seeking and trying to make more higher end wines. I think Luchignano didn't didn't end the area around it. They didn't really sort of start rebuilding that that heritage. I mean, and it's it's one of the things that I think we're trying to do. The the thing that's interesting about Luchignano, though, I think from which is also interesting about Luchignano from a winemaking side is that it's, geologically not at all, a harmonious area. The the types of soils change every thirty meters. And most of those soils, you know, either okay or not fantastic for wine, but you have these very small tiny patches, which that's super interesting and can make really beautiful wines. And those soils are different from from the other, but they have some similar types of soils to, you know, but, you know, all also with the the slight difference. And I think that's kind of the exciting thing in a way. It's more burgundian in you in the sense that you have these tiny little patches of really beautiful soils where the potential is, I think, nearly unlimited. Worse, and most of the area is not superb necessarily for for making wine. So it's it's a lot about identifying where to plant and, which vineyards in particular to bring back and And, yeah, it's very interesting. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama Jam scenery. Now, back to the show. No. It it really is because, if you're discovering something that's new in in a region that often seems, you know, already, you know, super present on in the market and the palates of people all over the world. It it's it's almost extra special because it's almost because it's in that, like, shadow, but in a good way, if that makes sense. The fact that wine culture and and food culture as well in Italy as a whole. You know, it it's what it we know it as right now is is very much I I can't say, it's a recent innovation in the sense that what Italy was like a hundred years ago. Was completely different, and you're bringing up the fact that how Tuscany moved into mass production. And, obviously, it's moved away from that, to an extent, for the most part. And I think given that your well, given that your grandfather went to Tuscany, was what was his ambition to create, like, really stylistic wines, or did he just love making wine and wanted to be in Tuscany? I mean, he he was a very he was quite an academic, person. And he really loved so he loved, especially because that was, you know, what he was brought up on when he was young in Belgium. That's what everybody had. And, and he, I think for him, the thing that he, but he loved the Burgundian culture. He has some Bugundian cousins who he would visit, and he loved these tiny little production. These little, and these, and, you know, having the real, you know, style to the within the winemaking approach, etcetera. And, and, you know, I think because of that, that, those big Indian cousins, he became very interested did in, soil quality and, and especially subsoils. And today in the wine world, you sort of have, I think the majority view is that at least when you speak to the more academic side of the of the wine world that subsoils maybe aren't, as important as a lot of winemakers make them out to be. I think that subsoil is, really central and and the most important thing in many ways. And so I think his view was is that he knew that there were these very beautiful subsoils around Guchignano and, you know, The idea was to try and and discover them. And so there's a lot of research into identifying, you know, these very small parcels, which could be which could be interesting. And I think that sort of became nearly intellectual for him. And he didn't I mean, he only planted a very small or four hectare vineyards, but he was wishing for other things, I think. And when I took over, I continued that that search. And, yeah, and and I think I think that was sort of one of the motivating factors to make these really small production cabs rather than, you know, the big estate cab, but these tiny selected parcels on on the on the soils. But, yeah, so I think that's sort of if from the wine side, I think that was really what had motivated him. But there was another side which was just There's something very, romantic about Tuscany and and beautiful about Tuscany. And it partially in in the preservation of of the villages and the towns and all the stories and and the history that comes. That comes with it. So I think there was sort of those those two things together that made it irresistible to him. I can imagine. I mean, I always think about what it what it would be like without cell phones or anything to visit a place like that and have, like, a really just raw kind of experience because now we're so overwhelmed with with visual content and whatnot that we almost, like, have these expectations and ideas of places But back in, like, I'm I'm assuming your grandfather came to Tuscany in what maybe the the forties or fifties? In the, yeah, in the sixties. The sixties? Oh my god. The sixties in Italy. Wow. Oh my gosh. What a time to be alive. Like, I could only imagine the thrill, you know. And even in it's seeking a thrill. It's quite rebellious in a way. I mean, maybe not rebellious because your your your grandfather is in Italian, but still to, like, come to Italy and plant vineyards with cap solve. It's it's old. The truth is is that well, I think when he did put, you mean, he he decided to plan, I think, at the end of the nineties in the two thousand. Ah, okay. So it was like a later thing. Yeah. It was a late it was a late thing. I mean, because there was a vineyard, and it was it was a mixture of plant material. And and, I mean, it was not very well planted, and, it needed to be replanted. And so for a while, he sort of, you know, with a local farmer, for that vineyard would just give it to the low give the grapes to a local, a local farmer who would make it a wine, but I think that as time went on, he saw in that parcel that there was a lot of potential. And he really decided to replant the in the late nineties, two thousands. And then with all the permits, etcetera. I think he finally plants started planting in two thousand and five only. So it's it's sort of a he wasn't necessary. I wouldn't describe him as a pioneer if kevin at endoscopy. Definitely not. He was following a trend in a certain way. I think except maybe what distinguished him is he planted with the intention never to expand. The labels into larger productions. And I think that's maybe something that that distinguished his view or the view of the of the view of the winery still today. It's Cab, so yin yin was often planted to rival the big brands of bordeaux and show that tuscany could do, you know, just as interesting cabs as bordeaux maybe. But Yeah. In Bordeaux, this, you know, they make a hundred thousand or two hundred thousand bottles of of of the big brands. And I think with us, it's three or four thousand bottles usually, it depends. I mean, it is quite romantic, though, going back to what you're saying because he has have this plot that he was, like, his neighbor, like, his, you know, his, his, well, maybe not his neighbor, like, his child, and by watching it, like, seeing how it's it can grow up, and then he decided to finally turn it into a vineyard. So he, like, kind of got to know it in a way over many, many years. It's I just I'm just imagining your grandfather, like, having this pot of land and always looking at it, analyzing it, then one day it's, like, Yeah. It's going to become. Yeah. I mean, I I think that, you know, actually for for sure some of the motivation comes from just him, you know, having seen it there and and you're unable not to imagine, know, or dream a little about how it might turn out to touch her. Yeah. But did you spend a lot of time, like, coming to Tuscany, like, with your grandfather before you moved? Yeah. I mean, I I think for me when I was at I was I wasn't living in in Italy. So it was really, where we would be sent for our summers when we were when we were young, so we would spend two months there every summer. And so a lot of that was you know, learning about wine and and thinking about it and being taught by him and also the other people who who were working with him. And, and then when I was, yeah, when I left school. I did, a few months in in working in some other wineries, and that's when I discovered how backbreaking, winemaking or the viticultural part of winemaking is, which I also think is something that's not talked about enough. But, anyway, it's Oh, I agree. Not to cut you off. It's it's one of the things I think people when it comes to romanticizing wine, you're like, it's it's it's agricultural labor. It's medieval labor. Like, it's literally and then not to mention, like, being yes. Mid as medieval labor in the vines, especially if you wanna make wines, you wanna treat your vines with as less intervention as possible as You know? Yeah. But and even if you go in the winery, it's like that manual labor, you could lose a hand. I will saw someone lose a hand in a winery. It's it's it's no joke. Yeah. I think we're yeah. It's true that in the winery, you can have very long days, especially during the the VINifications. And and but, but I think it's in the vineyard where I think I was just before really doing those days of work, I didn't understand I I can imagine what it was like to to work in a vineyard. I mean, doing nine hours of pruning in your back is sort of bent over for the for the whole nine hours. And, I mean, there's something good about it for the soul in a certain way. And you always have this incredible sense of achievement when you when the day is over. But it's I was shocked and I was just I just had a lot of admiration because you saw there are so many people who had been doing this for forty years and just working. Every day in the vineyard or doing these agriculture tasks for for their entire lives. And I I was, yeah, a lot I was very impressed and, you know, two months for me when I was eighteen and still a bit of a tween felt like a very, very long time. And I was pretty proud of getting through it. But, yeah. And then, yeah, and then I sort of I was planning on becoming an academic, And then, you know, in the layla phases of my doctors, I sort of was was presented with this opportunity. And, yeah, as I said, I just just left. You're like, I'm gonna become a medieval labor. Well, it's I think on the other hand, there's some really good amazing and fun things about making wine. I think it's one of the few forms of agriculture where you produce, you know, maybe let's say a more sophisticated product. And there's this other side, which is, I think, winemaking is quite intellectual and very difficult in certain ways. So you do have to do a lot of reading and studying and think carefully about things. You have lots of different dimensions. The manual labor is one central is the central part, but they're really nice and less backbaking past winemaking too. Well, I think being a winemaker really, of course, it depends on your approach, but it exercises, like, every aspect of your body, your personality, your your, you know, skill set because it's, like, especially as a small producer, you know, you you're taking care of the vine. So you got your medieval labor. Then you have to make the wines. You have to have a balance of understanding science, bit of chemistry. Then you have to sell the wine. So you have to be a salesperson. And then you also have to, like, obviously manage the business side. And I think for me, that's what I always found meaningful about being on the winemaking side is it's, like, it it it's really, like, challenges those multitasking skills. Yeah. Yeah. You use every part of your every part of your brain. I mean, and and that is very nice. The variety is is a really nice part of the of the job. I mean, I think I'm I know that I'm not so good in everything that's branding, etcetera. But so I yeah. But that's the other nice thing is that with these very small businesses, you can that are family owned. I just have lots of cousins who I can call up and and ask for help and advice. It's that that's a really other nice part of the of the job is just that your the company is sort of I mean, in many ways, it's a it's very serious about the winemaking, etcetera. But when it comes to the commercial size, I mean, there's just not the resources to have a whole commercial team. So it becomes like this very familial and and, yeah, and this very family orientated program where we come up with ideas together and and and work together. It's that's the very Italian side of it. Right? It's like you get the whole family's in it, and it's it's, well, I always say this, and it it's probably everyone on the pa podcast is like we get it right at Victoria. The Italian is about, like, community. It's about, like, it's it's not about the commodity. It's about the community. And, like, if you miss that aspect. It it the wines lose a little bit of that soul. Kinda like what you're saying earlier. Like, the you need that soul in in the wine, and I I know it sounds so it's philosophical, but it's when you don't have that, then don't know. It's like, don't make the wine. Like, make sure it has that basis. Yeah. I mean, I think the soul the soul also just if we speak, that's partly about the soul and the wine. The of the soul, you might just say the this identitarian side to the wine. And in some ways, that's what makes the wine, really special. But I think that the aisle would also say it's the soil and the land that that, you know, that makes that gives it those identities. And I think in a way the communal aspect comes from, or this may be more sociological aspect comes from the way you interpret, the soil and what you how how you try and translate the soil into the wine. So I I think that that sort of the communal identity of wines comes from, you know, kind of the way that people interpret or translate. Wines. And yeah. And then, I mean, that's also, of course, the winemaking and and the style of the wine that's also, you know, I mean, it always prob a lot of the time is communicating with historical community and a culture. But at the same time, if I can say the thing that I find more difficult with Italian wine is I just I think that there were because in the twentieth I mean, we talked about this earlier, but in the twentieth century, you had this, you know, upheaval where the this small community based, fits culture kind of got replaced by a more industrialized form of if not industrialized, we're a view of producing quantity over, over quality. And and I think in certain ways, the Not maybe not the new generation. It was the last couple of generations started the the work of really, you know, improving everything from the it's culture to the the winemaking. But I still think that a lot of the traditions or things that now seem like traditions can still be be questioned. And, especially I think in the understanding of of of land and and what, you know, how we should think about different types of of vineyards. And I think that understanding still needs to mature. And I sort of look at France and especially burgundy, And I think that the tuscany has the most beautiful soils as beautiful as burgundy, but I don't think there was yet at the same level as the begun gins in a certain way. We still kind of have some some work to do and things to change. There is a big, you know, narrative, especially on the market. Like, for consumers that aren't, you know, that don't really know the complexity of Italian wines, and then the comparison to something like France, it becomes you know, it it's an itch and I'm very curious even though I I can't go into it yet. So let's leave it as a cliffhanger for the the audience. Yeah. But I am interested in to knowing why you think that Tuscany, particularly Tuscany, is not there yet in what that means. But, we do have to kind of wrap it up here, unfortunately, but I did wanna ask you one question before we close out a very, very important one. You had said last time that even though living in Tuscany, for a few years now, your Italian is very mediocre. Is it still? Oh, it just And can you respond to Italian? I would I would say that it's still extremely mediocre. It's very bad Italian, but at least I I'm able now to communicate successfully. I usually get my, intended meaning across now. But, no, it's it's it's okay. And yeah. I can say, Chow. You could say, Chow. I don't have any kangaroos in my backyard, but if you want some wine, you can come over. Okay. I'll I'll give it a go. I'm sure that was my mistakes, in that sense. As a fellow non Italian, American thinks you did swell. Well, thank you so much James for coming back on the pod. And I think probably, and I'm already regretting trying to speak italian. It was great. It was great. Well, I can't wait to one day visit luchignano and maybe see a kangaroo. And, yeah, and, wishing you best of luck with the growing season here and all your medieval labor. Alright. Sal James. Bye. As always, a big good option for hanging out with me today, remember you can catch me every Sunday on the Italian wine podcast. Available anywhere, you can get your pops.