Ep. 2148 McKenna Cassidy interviews Tory O'Haire | The Next Generation

And I think that there's a Van Italy exam coming up for you in the next couple of weeks. There is. I I should be studying and not talking to you. I was like, gee, I wonder if Tory could forgive you before the test. You're cutting into my study time. I I am and we we acknowledge that publicly. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This is the next generation with me, Mackenzie. For the next episode, I invite you toke's or with me what young adults are up to in the Italian wine scene. Let's feast on our discussion of Italian wine and culture. Grab a glass with us. Chinchi. So welcome Tori. Hi, everyone. I'm Makenna. Your host on the next generation podcast of the Italian wine podcast. And I'm so grateful to be joined by Torio Hair. Welcome, Tori. Hi, McKenna. How are you? Very good. Thank you. You have, like, such an amazing story. I know currently you're the corporate beverage director of Gage Hospitality based here in Chicago, but there are so many cool things going on that I'm really delighted to be able to talk about today on the pod. And I think the listeners will really take interest as well. I know that used to, teach culinary school. You're an avid gardener. You're an artist. You, create these amazing beverage programs with cocktail and award winning wine lists. And wine tastings as well. And I think that there's a fin Italy exam coming up for you in the next couple of weeks. There is. I I should be studying and not talking to you. I was like, gee, I wonder if Tory could fit me in before the You're cutting into my study time. I I am, and we we acknowledge that publicly. How are you feeling about the test? How did you learn about the test and kinda get led to taking it? To be honest, I feel good about it. In that way where I don't know if it's confidence or hubris. And so I'm trying to kind of balance the two of those in that, like, you know, I've always have academic degrees. I've always been a good test taker. I actually enjoy taking tests in that weird way. Like, you know, I'm the trivia nerd. I I'm that guy. And so a part of me is like, oh, come on. I've worked in Italian wine forever and, you know, how hard can it be. And then immediately, like, that other forty nine percent of my brain is going, what is wrong with you? Stop saying things like that. You need to read this book some more. So so I feel like a healthy balance of of the two, I guess. I was just gonna say, like, a fifty fifty relationship between those feelings is probably healthier than, like, an eighty twenty Right. Right. Hubris to study. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. That's for sure. So The teeter totter is teetering. Right. In the air. There's no grounding. Exactly. We'll we'll see what angle that teeter totter is depending on the day. So, you know. Wow. Well, I appreciate the honesty. I feel like you know what you're doing. You've been around the block. It is cool to get to learn about the great genetics and the parentage of so many grapes that we know and love. Like, I remember learning that Zebibo and Kacharato are related to Garganiga and just finding that the coolest thing. Like, it's pretty interesting how detailed Professor Shenza's research is. Oh, for sure. And I'm, like, I'm such a science nerd at heart that the science and the genetics and the botany and geology and and chemistry and everything, like, that's what gets me really interested about things like this. I will always kind of like, semi disparagingly with a little tongue in cheek say that, like, I'm the worst wine snob ever because when it comes to the actual, like, fuss and pomp and circumstance and luxury of wine, that's actually what I care the least about. About wine in general. And so for me, like, getting to nerd out over botany and chemistry, it's like, okay, now we can talk about wine all day because those are the things that that make it all mean something more than just you know, how much did you spend on that bottle that you had at some fancy restaurants, you know? A thousand percent, like, down to the anthocyanins and the PNN and the, like, all of that you Yeah. Exact, like, which which anthocyanin is more stable than which other one it's like, And you're like, well, I can tell you because I learned all about it. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, and and it's really yeah. It's it's so I mean, you'd mentioned this earlier because I'm such an obsessive gardener. A lot of those aspects sort of overlap with other fields of botany. So, again, it's sort of, you know, it's my my, like, liberal studies background in sort of taking little bits of all of these things that, you know, the wine world kind of ends up both by by sort of sociology and by some sort of internalized snobbery, the wine world can often end up on its own little island. And, you know, we talk about our own little things. And, you know, oh, if you don't get wine, then, like, you're not really a part of the conversation. And so it's these aspects and these sort of elements of study that make it, you know, when the textbook is talking about vine genetics and and, you know, like the botanical side of things, I'm reading it going like, oh, yeah. That's exactly the same in roses. Like, it does the same thing. And so, you know, it's so it's a lot of that interesting kind of overlap where it sort of forces that island of wine to be a part of a larger, you know, continent of scientific studies. Thousand percent. That's really well said. And I have a follow-up question to that based on culinary arts too. I imagine, like, it connects in some way when you're in the dish, like, when you're designing a dish in some way, like, there's only some certain number of elements that nature has to work with. Like, there's gonna be combinations of things across agricultural, types, like, regardless, it must be interesting. That's awesome. For sure. Absolutely. It's the way I've kind of always approached food in general. Like, I I was raised in a family of of chefs and sommelier and and sort of food professionals. And so the act, the art of putting on a dinner, was just sort of like a reflex, and it was never really done as something to show off. It wasn't really done as even a profession until I was old enough to even consider it a profession. You know, when you were little, people just put on parties and you put on dinners and you you do this because it's about working with the raw materials, and it's about taking care of people, and it's about sharing this really awesome meal together. And every aspect of that was sort of equally important to other every other aspect of it, which is why I had worked in restaurants for ages, but then I went into I was a pastry chef for a long while, I was a private chef for a while after that. I went into cocktails and opened bars, then was a consultant in other people's bars, and then went into wine. And on the one hand, you know, I think these these fields are all taught and all sort of spoken about is if they're all completely separate. Not unlike I was saying about, you know, botany and Amplography, when at the end of the day, all we're talking about is, you know, good experiences and good food and bringing people together and creating these sort of this feeling around using all of these different sort of, elements when I ventured into my professional world and, like, really getting headlong into wine, it was never separate from any of the other things that I did. The idea of flavor, the idea of when to serve what and what foods are from there, like all of these concepts that sort of get talked about really liminally and really sort of, like, fringe, you know, you hear the the one Psalm who got trained on the idea of Oh, well, I always I always learned how to blind taste, you know, because your final call was based on, like, what would you eat with this? And, you know, if you can guess that, if it tastes like that food, then I bet it's probably from there, and that's how I would always get my final call in a blind tasting. And on some level, like, that's making it so I don't know, forcing it to be on that island in such a way when at the end of the day, like, yeah, we're just talking about food and what, like, it's just wine. It's just food. It's just putting on dinner, like all of this stuff matters. Very well said. Thank you for sharing those thoughts. Totally. Let's back up slightly. Tell us where you're from and where you were born. And then clearly dining and drinking was part of your life from an early start. So what was that like as a kid? Yeah. So, I was born in Montana, but I grew up in Northern Michigan. Oh, my grandpa's from Whitefish Montana. Oh, really? So I admit It's like a tiny little lake. Yeah. So so I I say I was born in Montana only because I wasn't born in Michigan. I lived there till I was, like, two and I mean, I've been back a lot. You know, I like my family out there, but it's like, I've never in a million years would I say I'm from Montana, you know. But you're you live there for forty eight months. Okay. Or twenty four months. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So, so I'm from Michigan. Basically split time between West Michigan and, Northern Michigan where our family farm was. And then, you know, my, family's all over the state. And we were all really close. My mom has six sisters. I have, a ton of cousins, and almost all of us are within five years of each of age with each other. So we all kind of grew up in this big family. And every member of the family was so invested in growing and cooking and making And, again, it really kind of hammered home that concept that, like, the feel of making something is the same no matter what sort of media you're using. You know, I have an aunt who's a who's a brilliant ceramics artist, and I have an aunt who's a an incredible oil painter. And, like, my mom is a genius seamstress. She can just, like, look at, you know, look at a piece of clothing and then go home and figure out how to make it basically. At the same time, all of them are also brilliant in the kitchen, most of them professionally. So it really hammered home this idea that, like, lesson one, you can learn how to do anything. Nothing is that hard to do. You can you can figure out how to do it. And number two, the act of making something sort of is the same muscle no matter what it is you're making or what it is you're using to make. And so because so much of this was around the kitchen and so much of this was you know, like, in gardens and in the woods and things like that. It was really kind of developed this philosophy of everything can taste good. You can learn how to make it taste good. You have as much as you need right in front of you. And if your raw materials don't look like enough, then you just need to learn the technique to make them enough, basically. And so it it became this sort of pattern that I took throughout my entire life of being able to sort of make and do and manifest because at the end of the day, you're, like, watching all of these women work, you know, watching my mom do things and just, you know, like, oh, yeah. No. We can just figure out how to make that. And and it was just sort of the second. It was never this idea of, like, oh, I don't know. We should we should call some or, like, you know, I guess maybe we could take a class or something. It's like, no. The most we're gonna do is go to the library and, like, maybe find a book on it. But, like, we're gonna figure this out. It's not that hard, you know. So it was a really cool way to grow up. Everything seemed, like, possible. Like, every Absolutely. It sounds like Carol Duack's growth mindset. Like, the mindset of, like, yeah. Let's just figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. And then you you sort of layer that mindset on top of the idea that that sort of all of these fields of creation, and and all of these, you know, again, when we take it back to, like, that dinner party, it's like, we spend so much time in the kitchen together because that's really how we love taking care of each other, the whole family. And so it really layered in this idea that, kind of going back to what I was seeing in the beginning, all of these things are on some level kind of the same. You know, the idea of separating, you know, being a pastry chef and running a restaurant and talking about wine as they're completely unrelated, you know, if you don't understand this one, then don't even try, like hire somebody to do that for you because you There's no way that you'll ever know what they're talking about. It was completely the opposite of that for me growing up. It was very much like, no, you absolutely should be able to bake the cake and plan the menu and pick the wine. And if you can't, like, figure out how to do that. Like, what's, like, why can't you do that? This none of this is that different. You know? So it's a really cool way to grow up and sort of to be now in an industry where, you know, sure I have my areas of expertise, and I I will never say that, you know, I'm an sort of a a master of all, but the the idea of of sort of working on a team or working in a restaurant or working in an industry where, you know, oh, I have my one field that I'm brilliant at, and nothing else can I really correspond with? It's like, Well, then you just need to get better at other stuff. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, like, it's it's hard to I I guess I have a I have like a mental disconnect in that idea of like, oh, no. This is the one thing that I do and I don't know about, you know, I could never talk about spirits because I'm a wine person. Like, what? It's like the antithesis of, like, stay in your lane, like Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's not a thing in under your, like, the philosophy you're describing. Yeah. And I got a liberal studies degree as my bachelor is and the whole Ed Grand Valley State in, in Michigan. I'm a I'm a fellow liberal arts degree, so I empathize. Love that. Yeah. Well, yeah. Then we can have a great long, like, Jane Adam style conversation about how, like, Once you reach a certain point, you recognize how, like, being able to know at least a decent amount about all of these concepts builds you a better understanding about all of them kind of intrinsically. Say it's like, you know, liberal studies in action. So Totally. And basically, to move forward, you're continually asking questions. And, like, that's the process to move forward not having answers. It's the ability to continue asking questions that allows you to move forward, which sounds like you're pretty good at, which is awesome. So what are you thinking about perhaps Americans understand Elto Adi Shea, and how might you characterize just to touch on Alto briefly? Like, Trintino Elto Adi Jay, how might you characterize? Altawatijay, if you were to explain it to someone who had never heard of it before, not necessarily geographically, but the feeling there in relation to maybe the rest of the country, like, how might we characterize the tone and the flavor of that place? Sure. Sure. I think, yeah, to simplify the most or to get sort of almost offensively reductivist, I think that Alta AdiJ is this really interesting kind of venn diagram overlap. The most Austrian influence of any of these, other regions of Italy. And that's critical to sort of hold in your hand. You know, I I never like to essentially, to be so reductivist to say, like, well, I'll I'll do AdiJ is the Austria of Italy, which is like, okay. I mean, it's not really, but Do we need an Austria or something? I know. Right? Like, You know, you you don't you don't wanna, like, distill it down nearly that much. And at the same time, you also, like, you can't talk about Alto Adi J without keeping its Austro Hungarian roots in mind because that really has affected a huge amount of its food and wine culture in in a lot of interesting ways. And on some level, you know, if you're being extremely simplistic about things, as much as I say, like, you cannot reduce it down to just calling it the Oscar of Italy. If I was blind tasting pinot noirs, the one that tastes the most Austrian or the most sort of like, you know, alpine meats burgundian, I'm always going to blind call that as alto out a day because, you know, yeah, it's Italian pinot noir, and it kinda tastes a little Austrian, you know, leaning toward the Burgundian in style. It's a I'll to validate. Like, there's nothing else it can be. So I think that that's a that's an interesting way to talk about, but I think at the same time, as much as you can hold that idea on ones on one hand. On the other hand, Alta AutoJ is so incredibly diverse in really interesting ways. And, and I'll admit I mean, you know, you I I you can speak to this as well as anybody I'm sure. You can study a wine region or study a wine or study a concept in books and in movies and in tastings and in master classes and all of these things. And then you go there and be like, oh, no. This was not what I, like, I didn't understand. It's so true. I would say it's almost, like, without being disparaging, it's almost not even worth looking at a map. Of El Tuanishay from, like, a sky view. Like, one must stand on the earth then. Yeah. And then you will, like, you will see. Yeah. It's it was it was so wild being there and just, you know, like, you go to a region. I'll say the first of all, before I had gone to AltawatiJ, I had never actually been up in the Alps before. Tons of travel. It's just one of those, like, silly blind spots that as we travel and as we explore, you just realize like, well, yeah, I've just missed the Alps for whatever reason. So right out of the gate, like, that was a little bit of a breathtaking, but it was also kind of a paradigm shift in terms of, you know, oh, when you mean mountain valley, this is actually what you mean. But looking at Elto Addege sort of when you're there and seeing these variations and being able to recognize, like, oh, you know, it's a forty minute maximum drive from one side of the valley to the other side of the valley. And on one side of the valley, it was raining and freezing. And on the other side of the valley, like, I had to strip down to, like, a tank top because I was so hot because I was still wearing the raincoat and sweatshirt from on the other side of the valley. And then recognizing, you know, when you're at the winemaker, and they're talking about, like, oh, yeah. That's why the only stuff we grow on this side, like, up above the winery is the Turner and the, you know, Grennevelt leaner, And on the other side of the valley is our pinot noir. And then down in the middle, you know, in the Kaltura sea around the lake, they're growing Temporinio, you know, which is just like, you know, sure I get it, there's climate variation, but, like, to be there and say, Okay. No. But the climate variation literally is, like, that hill is for Pinot noir, this hill is for Temperennillo, and that hill is for only apples because it's too cold. And it's just like, wait, what? I'm like Literally. Yeah. Just because we're near the mountains does not mean we're in the mountains nor does it mean that temperatures are not eighty five ninety on a warm day? And then the fluctuation, it's crazy. Like, within such a small area, so much going on. Yep. Yep. And then just going up the Valvinosta and, like, the sort of conflicts of these three valleys all meeting and seeing how different all three of the valleys are. And at the same time, like, this area is so much smaller than I, and I, and I assume a lot of people even realize. It's, you know, you think about like, oh, you drive up the valley and sure, like, the topography is gonna change and the climate's gonna, you know, like micro climates and all that. But it's like, no, it's really you know, we never drove for more than maybe an hour in any direction. And it would be, like, moving through the equivalent of, like, different states of the US. Like, you know, it was a thirty minute drive, and we have driven from, you know, like, the shores of Lake Michigan up into the highlands of, you know, Vancouver in a span of a forty minute drive. In these minutes, what was your experience of dining culture when you were there last? I know this region has the highest concentration of Michelin Star Russ. Strants in the country of Italy. And is is extremely well off too, and I imagine, I've been there only a short period of time, so my experience was limited. But but the the food and perhaps it's connection to the wines. What was that experience, like, for you? So the food was, again, like, incredibly Austrian influenced. You know, it's it's very much like, I think in a very cool way because, you know, I've I've been to Austria, and I and, again, I keep sort of like hedging my bets, I guess. I don't know. Like, the disclaimer is is, you know, I don't want to make that seem like this and Austria are the same at all. And it's almost it was more interesting to think about it as, like, this is what Austria Hungary, like, this is what Austro Hungarian food would have been more like because I would say it's not that similar to current, you know, going I was just in Vienna, and, like, the food's nothing like Vietnamese's food at all. But at the same time, it's also nothing like the rest of Italy. It it has so many interesting kind of variations and inflections there within, where, like, it doesn't seem Italian, but it's also not the food that you get in Austria, kind of interesting overlaps. But, you know, lots of dairy, lots of potatoes, lots of asparagus, so much asparagus. It's like truly unmatched. And I think that's what makes it so special, and, I am so excited to be able to learn more about it through, like, the Vendeskley Academy and through traveling there because it's not the first region anyone brings up when you start learning about wine in the wine industry. So It's a big treat. I mean, even going as deep as figuring out which clone of Skyava they're planting and why why, like you mentioned, like apples here, chardonnay sauvignon blanc here, Pino here. It's incredibly specific, I would say. It's almost more specific there to, like, a scientific level than I think we experience in a lot of places because they've had the freedom to be, like, so precise, and it it clearly pays off. It's like that that level of detail that I'm obsessed with. Like, as a perfectionist, like, the more detail, the better, and I'll just, like, keep feeding on it. And I think it's just expressed, like, extremely precisely, there as well. So, yeah, Yeah. For sure. It's interesting. I mean, I know that the winemakers in Altoage a lot of them, like, to sort of talk about their winemaking, especially those that specialize in, you know, Pino Blanc, pinot gris, pinot noir, chardonnay, they often sort of speak in reference to Burgundy, sort of stylistically and conceptually in a couple of different ways. And I think the better of the winemakers will always sort of, hold themselves to say, like, we're not trying to be burgundy. You know, we are Altaati Jay, and that's a different thing. But it's also it would be it would be foolish to say that there is no comparison. And there I mean, you know, when you're trying some of these, like, really high end Pinan noir and Chardonnay that they can do there, like, you can't deny that there is a similarity of style in, in certain circumstances. And I think that to your point, one of the things that they do really well and have done historically is sort of in parallel to Burgundy's sort of, specificity of place that, you know, that they've spent the past, you know, four hundred years perfecting. And I think some of it some of it is probably that, you know, Austro Hungarian precision, like you're saying, some of it is also, I think, almost do more in effect to the, the sort of climate requirements, because whereas in, you know, you look to somewhere like Burgundy, And, like, yeah, we just learned that the Pino grows better here and the chardonnay grows better here. In Elto adige, okay, well, everything freezes and dies here, but this spot is great. So we're gonna, you know, it's it's a little more out of necessity and a little less out of just sort of like practice, if you will. But it's the same thing. They do at least parallel in that sort of, discovery and definition of place and really finding exactly what works where and exactly how to perfect it and really leaning into that sort of purity of place and purity of winemaking, that I think, whereas I wouldn't say, you know, again, you know, it's not the Austria of Italy and it's not the Burgundy of Italy, But at the same time, you would be foolish to say that there isn't a parallel in a lot of ways. And I think you can draw some really interesting, tasting comparisons and sort of stylistic comparisons for, for instance, for the consumer or for you know, the wine curious to start looking at regions they're less familiar with. And, you know, if you are a giant fan of Burgundian and Austrian wines, it's a really easy gateway into Altoati Jay to say, okay, we're not saying they're the same thing, but we are saying that if you love Burgundy, Alta wattage is a really cool region to start to explore. A thousand percent. Well said, I it's it's easy to describe a relationship without assigning a a DNA connection of the two places. Right. And and Yeah. And I mean, it's it's always difficult in sort of, I think, in our positions to, you know, on the one hand, especially if you're in a consumer facing position in the wide world, you know, it's hard not to be really reductivist because the consumer often just wants, like, you know, give me Elto out of Jay in eight words. And it's like, okay. Well, I don't know kind of the Burgundy and Austria of Italy. And, like, there there's your eight words, and yet, like, the the teacher in me is like, but that's not enough. That's wrong. And, like, I'm immediately I'm immediately saying, like, that's it's not that it's not the Austria and Burgundy, Italy, and and you're you're misunderstanding everything about it. But there's so much more. I know. So it's a it's a hard line to walk a little bit. Yeah. True. It's at least a way to kind of, you know, Like I said, it can kinda be a a a gateway into it. That's absolutely so true. Before we close, I know we're running short on time, but what's another region that's been exciting to kind of dive deeper into as you're preparing for the v exam? Maybe one you've already loved in the past, but another place that's kind of coming up for you more frequently. Oh, that's so hard. So I literally just got back last week from Italy. I took a tour group around, Tuscany, um, ria, La Marque and Abruzzo, and they were all so cool. I mean, I I've been really into umbrian wines, and I think they're of such high quality and so underrepresented that, like, umria has been sort of, you know, my my, like, next nerdy area. I'm a sucker for, like, cool climate, high acid aromatic reds, things like that. So, you know, I love Valdosta. That's, you know, some of my personal favorite wines up there. And they're, by no means, the easiest to get a hold of, but, you know, they're they're very cool when you can. I don't know. I just, I'm I'm such a fan of Italian food and wine that, that I I give the worst answers to these questions because it's like No. No. I like it because it's such a testament to, like, the integration of your life with like, creating things growing all the way up. And then the the way that the country of Italy and its wine regions, it's just regular regions exhibit that. Like, it's the perfect story of, like, you with the country because Yeah. It really like, the similar tone and flavor and motivation and desire. Like, I I just totally see the cohesion. It's really special. I've spent a lot of time studying the history of Italian food, and so I really get into the the nerdery around that. And so, yeah, anytime it comes down to sort of you know, places that are interesting me at the moment or or, you know, favorite wines or things. It it really is so much more. I I think on the one hand, it's so much more about just like what cool story, you know, have I read recently? Because that's the one that's at the front of my mind. You know, again, like, I just got back from La Marque. So La Marque is in the the front of my mind. So ready to tell you about my telecast. Yeah. But then on the other hand, it really because I, like I said, sort of at the very beginning, if if I can't make something sort of tangible and practical, I'm not interested in it. You know, I'm not interested in just collecting fancy restaurant visits and collecting expensive bottles that I've tried. For me, it's like, no, like, what do you wanna eat right now? And then we'll make that, and then we'll drink wine from there. I I mean, it's as simple as that. It's like, you know, cool, comfort dinner, we'll we'll make something cool and, you know, we'll drink the wine that's from there. And it's as simple as that. Well said. Thank you so much. The listeners and I truly look forward to following you in your journey. I know you're you're on the gram. They can miss at your restaurant in Chicago, but it's been truly such a pleasure. And again, from you and your perspective. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Come on down to a condo anytime. We've we we've we're setting up for our big new, Tuscany features. So all kinds of cool new wines with that, and Oh, it's gonna be awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So many great time for me also. Fresh stories. Yes. So many fresh stories to share. So good talking to you. Thank you, Tory. My pleasure. Anytime. Thanks so much. For being here with me today. Remember to catch our episodes weekly on the Italian wine podcast, available everywhere you bet your pods. Salud Day.