Ep. 2155 George Michael Grima interviews Danielle Overdevest | The Next Generation

If you have a favorite wine and it becomes your favorite wine, you'll drink it for a long time. So I think that's really important for what the wine industry to remember is, like, you need to find a way to capture these people when they're when they're deciding what they like in their youth. And so for the food memories, I think that it would be, you know, not necessarily experiential marketing, but in some way creating creating these specific memories, these moments in time in their brains with that specific brand. Tao. Welcome to the next generation with me, your host, George Michael Grima. Join me as we explore the Italian heat and Weinstein for the eyes of young individuals with fantastic experiences to share. Alright. Let's go. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This is the next showings with me, your host, George Michael Green, ma'am. Today, I'm very excited because I have yet another special guest and a very special friend as well. From Italy coming all the way from Canada, Danielle Overthevest. Hi, Danielle. Hi, George. How are you? I'm so happy to have you here. I'm great. How are you? I'm excellent. Amazing. So Just to give a little brief intro about Danielle and that she can tell us more about herself. Danielle is coming like I said from Canada. She is a master student like myself and currently she is working, in Bologna in tech firm, doing marketing specifically and growth marketing. However, she came here not only to pursue, you know, her career further, but also to continue to experience the culture beyond her country. You know, all throughout Italy and all throughout Europe. So that's why I'm very excited to have her on the show to tell us about, you know, her experience here. Yeah. So can you tell us more about yourself, Danielle? Yeah. Absolutely. So I grew up in Calgary in Canada. And I moved here just over a year ago to bologna, and I did my master's in digital marketing and communications at the business school. And I currently work in, product growth and digital marketing at a tech company here in bologna. I, you know, so far I really love the job. It's great. Yeah. But Italian culture has definitely been an adjustment for me about me personally. I have a really, multi ethnic background, even though I am a foreign and raised Canadian, My mom is actually from India, and and my dad is from the Netherlands and also part indonesian. So I grew up, you know, appreciating in a lot of different cultures and, like, kind of growing up in a very diverse society that Canada is. I'm also a really avid traveler. I recently hit a milestone of traveling to forty countries this past August. Eight of them were this year alone, but I've been traveling since I was a little kid with my family. It's been really important to us. Otherwise, in my free time, I love to cook, bake, read, and do lots of DIY projects. I'm also really into, you know, yoga and doing going on going thrifting and antiquing and finding different things. That's amazing. So as in from what you've said alone now, besides from what I already know about you as a friend, you really like to immerse yourself and experience, whatever country, whatever culture you're in. You're not closed off to to wherever to wherever a place you are. You're there not only tasting the food and the wines, but also getting into the way of life of things. So since you really like to immerse yourself and, you know, like, absorb the culture and take on as much as you can, could you tell us a bit about how it was growing up in Canada? And then we'll move on to how the experience has been so different in Italy now. Yeah. So how was it like growing up in Canada and even in terms of your relationship, with food, which wine? Yeah. So, I mean, Canada is a huge country, so it really varies based on where you grew up. I grew up specifically in Calgary, which is in on the western side of Canada, not on the coast, but it inland a little bit near the Rocky mountains. And I mean, I would describe my upbringing as normal, but I think so with everyone else. For me, it was just the relationship with food is that There was a lot of different people from a lot of different places in Canada. And, you know, I grew up eating my own cultural food. So Indian food, Dutch food, and then Indonesian food, but I also grew up having like classic North American dishes. But then there's this whole other, you know, there's so many other cultures and cuisines to try. And so there's Vietnamese, there's Thai, there's Thai, there's in Chinese cuisine. There's so many different things that you can try. And so for me, it was really, when I think about Canadian food, I think kind of about almost everything because I don't really have a limitation. Mhmm. Mhmm. I got you to me, like, it's not, like, when you say Canadian food, like, the most stereotypical thing would be, like, I don't know. You can correct. Obviously, it's gonna sound really bad, but, like, fifteen. No. And and and a hundred percent, but honestly, I think some people would argue, like, that's a Quebec quaddish. It is very popular all throughout Canada, but it is much more, strongly, like, guarded by the French Canadian people. And, like, I love the team. I will talk about it later. I love it. It's a great, it's a great dish. It's heavy, but it's a great dish. And there is some there are some other, you know, Canadian focused dishes, but there's nothing I can say that's like, specifically wholeheartedly from from this culture. However, for, you know, a traditional Canadian dish, I think something that's really important to recognize is the indigenous people of Canada. So something that I know that they have have made and still make to the states something called Bannock, and it's basically a fried bread item. And so I have had it before. I've tried to make it before, and it's really, really kind of fun. It's a fun dish to make. It's basically a fried piece of bread, and then sometimes you serve it with like a jam or maple syrup or just butter. So it's not that that's a traditional dish of Canada, but I think it's really important to recognize the culture and history of indigenous people in Canada. Yeah. Yeah. For sure, because I think that's, like, you know, maybe one of the few items that you can say that like intrinsically Canadian, you know, at least even, like, locally in terms of, like, the the land and the country, like, you know, from where it all started. Having said that, coming to Italy where there are so many, like, dishes and cuisines that are like really specific to the country. You know, even if you just say pizza and pasta, you have so much to go on, which are, you know, the most stereotypical dishes, but they are intrinsically Italian. So, you know, going from something that was so broad and so kind of like inclusive to a point of other cuisines and then coming to Italy, which, you know, has a very strict cuisine, which is Italian cuisine, you know, what you're getting into. You have a lot to try, of course, but it is still a very specific Italian cuisine. How was this, you know, the kind of like bridging your two ways of life from Canada to Italy? It was definitely very interesting. I think at first, I mean, I had been to Italy as a tourist before, and so, of course, you have that, like, excitement of a dopamine rush of, oh, I just wanna pasta and pizza and all of it. And it's so fantastic and it's always amazing. But it was hard when I got, you know, a few months in, and I was like, I really miss having, you know, Indian food cooked by my mom or being able to go and get, like, the Vietnamese's pho that I always loved, things like that, just small comforts. And there are there are places here, and I definitely have sought them out and found them, but it was definitely interesting because it's very much so adamements of Italian food, which, of course, it's in Italy. It should be, but it's really interesting seeing like the difference between the two. Hundred percent. And now shifting a bit more onto the wines as well, because we'll talk about more, you know, Italian wines later on as well. But I think I'm really interested in. I think that the listeners will be really interested as well to hear more about Canadian wines because, I mean, we hear about, you know, wines from the United States. And that's mostly what we think of when we think of North American wines. You know, we think of like California, Napa Valley, you know, that's like the main highlights. However, we don't really speak a lot about Canadian wines. Could you tell us a little bit more about how it was growing up in Canada, specifically in terms of, like, the wine? So from a really young age, my parents were great about socializing us to, like, alcohol and wine. Like, it wasn't something taboo or something that we never, like, talked about as kids. I remember my parents always enjoyed wines. They really loved red wine always. My mom specifically knew she would always want red wine with dinner. She loved sangria, which is, you know, like Spanish sangria. She would always have it. It would be something she would love to have if we went on a trip. And so when it came time as an adult, obvious when I became an adult, obviously, their preferences for wines really shaped really shaped my understanding and my, like, where where I would dip my toes when I wanted to try. My dad really liked, chilean wines or wines from South America, and so those would be kind of the first that I went with. When I did start, my mom always enjoyed growing up a wine called Apothic Red, and it's a sweeter red wine. It's from California, and it's a blend of Cabernet sauvignon and Milo. I really enjoyed this wine because it's it's got really, again, fruitier sweeter notes. There's black cherry, there's plum, blueberries, vanilla, and mocha, and these are flavors that I already naturally gravitated towards. And so in wine, it was kind of perfect. But I did find as a kid, or not as a kid, as a young adult, that red wines were quite heavy for me. And so I would experiment with more, lighter white wines, like a muscato variety, because again, this had the same fruittiness, but it wasn't necessarily as heavy as a red. That's really interesting how, you know, you're not only mentioning your own experiences with wine. And yes, you experiment with wine and try different ones, but also it's true because some people, Italy is quite, you know, it's quite alcohol friendly and it's quite open to that wine culture. It's it's really, you know, tied into the culture. But I think it's really good to have grown in household that was so warm towards wine culture and alcohol culture, not as something that, you know, you just drink to get drunk and like something bad for you. But as a way to, you know, enhance your experiences and discover other cultures. And, you know, it's really interesting how those experiences as well from your parents influenced your own, your own taste kind of thing. So could you give us a bit of an insight, you know, a bit of a look into what the Canadian wine scene is like. Yeah. For sure. So, I mean, there is a huge wine scene in, Canada. So, where I'm from Calgary is right next to the province of British Columbia. And in that region, there is an incredibly okanagan region. And it is probably this I think it's the second largest wine producing region in Canada. The other is in, Ontario, which is province on the East Coast. And I know that that region is it's huge for wine, like, kind of focus tourism. They have over two hundred vineyards, a hundred wineries. It's really highly developed and a very specialized region. I know that it's, you know, very diverse in terms of grape varieties. There is Merlo, Capagnio, Pino noir, truckening and lots of others. Another really cool thing about, the Canadian wine scene is ice wine, which is made from grapes that are frozen on the vine. And the point of it is to kind of, create a more enhanced flavor of wine, and it's, I think, sweeter sweeter, I believe. And it's really kind of unique to the region, and there's a few other varieties in the world, but I know that that's it's a very popular thing in BC, specifically. Basically, I think our wine our wine scene is very much so more focused on the tourism aspect. It's a really popular thing to go to a winery as like a holiday or a weekend trip, that kind of thing, rather than like seeking out, like, the wines just for the wines. I would also say that wine in Canada, especially Canadian wines are really expensive. And so it's kind of inaccessible, especially to the younger generation like myself. I grew up not grew up, but as a young adult, I had more imported wines and my parents were always drinking imported wines. They really liked, chilean reds, ones from California, different varieties that were not necessarily Canadian. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, the point that you said that's like quite inaccessible. I feel like it's it's a shame because, you know, yeah, you hear about them and you can research around them and, you know, go on touristic trips and go on like fancy, like, vineyard trips and like, you know, make a thing out of it. But it's not really something that you're gonna go to your grocery store and be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna pick up this ten euro or rather ten dollar, like bottle of wine and like take it home with me and say that I'm drinking Canadian wine. Like, it's not it's it's quite a shame in that sense. No. It's absolutely a shame. And I would say even another thing is it's just so cultural. I mean, even you saying go to the grocery store and pick up wine, we actually can't. Alcohol in Canada is sold separately. So you don't get it at the grocery store. It's always at a liquor store or somewhere separate. So it's not like it's as common, like, alcohol and wines are not as commonplace for us as they are here where you just go and you get your daily groceries and you're like, oh, pick up a nice bottle of wine. You'd have to make a separate stop or go somewhere else, and then and that means If you want something more, you know, specialized or curated for wine, you'd have to go to a specialty shop. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a huge difference. Because even, like, you know, me, I'm from Malta and even, you know, you can buy wine from a grocery store, So then, you know, the same as Italy and the same of, you know, most of Europe. So even then, does it affect how often you drink wine, for example, at home or, like, generally, like, out and about? Absolutely. I would say before coming here, I I rarely have wine, honestly. The the culture of drinking, I think, specifically, you know, in my age group, but also just in general, is not necessarily, wine focused in Canada. I would say we're much more you know, beer or cocktails or liquors or, really popular in North America is like the hard seltzers. Wine is, for my age demographic, is really not, at the forefront, which is kind of sad because I think that It's it's such a it's a much more sophisticated drink. It's much more. There's a lot of different experiences you can have for it. And I know that you can have that with beer. I know you can have it with other things, but it would be a nice opportunity to have it more frequently, but Really, I you don't drink it that much. And if you're going out here, I think if you go out for an appetitivo with friends, you get you can get a glass of wine whereas people out for drinks with friends at home. Usually you're getting a beer or you're getting a cocktail. It's rare that I would see anyone or know anyone gravitate towards a glass of wine? Yeah. A hundred percent is just not it's just not as accessible, you know, because if you're going out with friends, you're you're gonna go out with friends. You're gonna go out with friends. You're gonna go out to the club or to the bar, and you're not gonna have, you know, casually have a glass of wine. Whereas Yeah. Whereas here, whereas here, there's so many more opportunities to have a glass of wine. Even if you're going on a picnic, even if you're going down to the park, you know, for an afternoon on the weekend, probably get a bottle of wine with you, and it'll be a completely normal thing. Not in Canada. No. I can imagine. Not even the Alice White. Well, in some place, so Montreal, yes, you can do that. And I think that's because Montreal is very much So more European in that way, you can have a drink in the park, but in my city, you cannot it's it's illegal to be drinking in public like that. There's a few parks that they sometimes designate in the summer, but honestly, you're very limited to where you can where you can have a have a glass of wine. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's crazy. So isn't even just saying that, like, the the kind of like the culture of the cultural differences are huge in terms of in terms of wines, and even in terms of food, you know, there's like, a vast difference. Now speaking about Italian wines more specifically, and your experience in Italy, so how has it been? You said you've been drinking more wines, drinking more Italian wines, of course, since it is more accessible. Like, And what occasions have you been drinking wines? Are there any specific Italian wines that have stood out to? Yeah. So my experience with Italian wine, I think it's just moving here in general. My experience with wine has just increased because I've had the opportunity to try some anymore. And living in the Emilia Romagna region. I do have two classic favorites, which is Apigno Fazante and Orlando. I would say in terms of occasion of where I have these is honestly so much more. Sometimes after work, I'll come home and I'll cook And I have, you know, a nice, a nice bottle of wine. And I'm like, let's try it. Like, it's and it's not, you know, drinking for anything other than I just want to enjoy the taste and enjoy the pairing with my meal. But I also would say it's really more common out for me to when I go out for Nepetitivo or just for a drink with a friend, I honestly gravitate more towards wine than I ever did before. Usually, it would be immediate, like, a cocktail, something like that. And now I look at the wine list first, which is, you know, something that I a year ago I wouldn't have even thought of. In terms of my favorite ones, there is a Lambrusco. It's called otello eighteen thirteen, Nero de Lambrusco, and I had it, you know, for me wine and food stick in, in memories. Like, traveling and being with friends. And so I fell in love with this specific bottle, at a restaurant in Bologna. I'll study at fifty one. And every time I go there, I I I wanna order it. It's fantastic. It's very heavy, but it has rub raspberry, strawberry, and vanilla notes. And these are, you know, flavors that I've always loved. It's probably my go to Mbrusco or, you know, if I'm feeling adventurous, I will try something new, but it's It's great to pair with, like, you know, or charcuterie, something like that because it really has such a strong flavor, and it really complements those kinds of flavors really well. For piñolletto, my favorite is from a local winery in the Colivo Nizi. It's called the Pertta Temple Fazante, and I had it the first time at a wine tasting, at their vineyard winery, Cantina Terarosa Valena. It's super light, and it pairs really well with most dinners. And I really enjoy having it whenever I make, you know, quick meal at home or something like that. You have, you have really accumulating, like, good amount of knowledge about these specific wines. And what's interesting is you don't just stop, you know, you didn't just stop at okay. I love a good lambroo but no, okay. These are like the two specific ones I'm gonna gravitate to. These are the ones I know that work well. It's a good platter with a good charcuterie. So these are the ones I'm gonna I'm gonna go for. You know, you mentioned the Italian food. However, I for me, again, it's really interesting. Since you have such a vast experience of cooking different foods and eating different foods from different cultures, not only, you know, you can measure Vietnamese food. You can mention chili and food, Central American in general. However, also cultures, food from the cultures that, you know, you have a personal connection with. So Indian, Indonesian, Dutch foods. How will you pair or how have you been pairing, you know, just like in in this past year, you know, these Italian wines, which these with these very specific foods that you will just, you know, cook casually at home. So, yeah, my mom is Indian and she's specifically from Goa. And if you know anything about India, Goa is kind of like the beachy coastal region. It's really well known for the seafood and, you know, kind of coconut flavors, which is, you know, I think India is really kind of like Italy in that way where every region is really specific on food and really different. Like, there is so much diversity, across regions in India. And then my dad who is Dutch, but also part Indonesian. You know, for for us, we didn't Dutch cuisine isn't a hugely, I wouldn't say it's hugely variety. There is lots of things that I really like, but, you know, It is just a lot of meat and potatoes in different forms, but it's still but it's still delicious. I'm not I'm not I'm not complaining. And then the Indonesian food is like a whole other world. And I think it's also one of the Southeast Asian cuisines that people don't know a lot about of. Because it's not as popular as something like Thai food or Japanese or Vietnamese, things like that. So for me, Indian food is my comfort food. It's what I make when I feel homesick here. It's what I crave when I'm feeling, you know, like, I miss Canada, which I think is kind of funny for a lot of people. So in Goa, we really emphasize coconut, fish, and vinegar because of of its coastal, of its coastal geographic location. One another dish though that I like that's not just in, Goa is a southern Indian dish called Dosa, which is a really thin crepe made of lentils and rice flour. It's served with, like, a different type of masala curry inside. So sometimes it's a potato masala, sometimes it's paneer. And then it's usually served. It's really fun. They have, like, three different sauces. So to speak on the side, two are chutneys, one is coconut and coriander or cilantro. And then another is, like, sometimes a ginger carrot one and another sambar, which is like a lentil curry. But then I also would say for Indian cuisine, it's also important to consider, like, the modern Indian cuisine. So everyone knows what butter chicken is, and it is actually an Indian dish. It's just not, you know, a historical one. It's a modern one. It was created in Delhi. But butter chicken is like something again that I just find so much comfort in. And then another type of food that's, I think people should really know about Indian food is paneer, which is an Indian type of cheese. And it's it's kind of an interesting almost starts as the same way you'd make a mozzarella, like boiling milk and then adding like an acidic piece, but it becomes the soft melting non melting cheese that you put in a lot of different curries, and it's a really versatile source of protein for a lot of vegetarian curries. For Indonesian food. Again, so much to say. I could go on and on. But there's, like, the classic bambi and asi goreng, which are the traditional rice and noodle dishes. There's my one of my favorites, peanut, saute, chicken skewers, which are, you know, just Amazing if you've ever had them. And then another is a beef friend and curry, which is so fantastic. It's a slow cooked beef curry with coconut milk, lemongrass, ginger garlic, like, like, the classic aromatics that you would get in in Asian cooking, and it's probably one of my favorite things. And then another one, gado gado, which is an Indonesian salad that has bean sprouts, cabbage, potatoes, hard boiled eggs, and then the same peanut sauce over top of it. And so all of these are, you know, really rich dishes. Like, it's all quite heavy for the most part. And so for me, like pairing, pairing, wine pairing with these dishes, I always go to a white. I always go to something bubbly. So One recently that I've, enjoyed is I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation. So sorry. Joseph Giverser Meyer, and it is a, it's from Alto adage in, Italy. And it has kind of got notes of lychee pineapple, apricot, ginger, and honey. So it almost has, like, complimentary flavors with the ginger, but it's very tropical and fruity and very light. And it just kinda cuts through all the spices and the heaviness and really just, I don't know, refreshes the palette, at least in my experience. Another one I really like is, catamir, a thesis brute, which is a blend of chardonnay, pinot, Bianco pinot noir, and it also again has that apple pear melon and citrus flavor, and it's very fizzy and quite acidic. And it just when you're having such heavy rich, you know, kind of curries that this flavor really just blend so well. Yeah. No. That sounds that sounds like a dream. You know, and what you said about, you know, these quite, you know, heavy dishes, but not necessarily in terms of the food content itself, you know, at least not in all of them. But in terms of the flavors, you know, the flavors are so complex, they're so diverse, but they all come together so well. So you really need a wine, which is equally as complex, but, you know, like, light, you know, has a light aftertaste to it. Were there any more dishes? There are more dishes. I didn't even touch to Dutch. So for me, the best thing about Dutch cuisine is Pana kukan, which is it's kind of like a mix between a pancake and a crepe. It's slightly thicker than a crepe. And it's got some heft to it. But it's basically a, a sweet or savory pancake, depending on how you're feeling. Sometimes you eat it with, like, cinnamon apples that have been cooked down and kind of caramelized, but you can also have it on the more savory side with gouda, potato, onion, which is honestly one of my favorites. But again, like, you can have any combination of toppings or flavors. It really depends on what you like. And then another item that is kind of fun that I like is called Bichard Balen, which is like fried meatball with veal or, for beef and it's deep fried and kind of have it with, like, a mustard or something like that. But I will say my two top two favorite Dutch foods are the stroopwafel, which is, like, the little waffle cookie with caramel in the middle. Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah. It's fantastic. Yeah. The classic and gouda cheese. It's fantastic. That is a cheese board in and of itself for me. Pare it with a nice and nice wine. Good to go. Honestly, I'd pair it with a lembers sounds like a lovely evening. A lovely aperitivo. Not necessarily Italian, but you got you got a little lumbers gum there. No. It all sounds so lovely and I think it's really unique, but also really important I think to highlight because, you know, when we're talking about pairings, if we're talking about kind of like traditional pairings, we think of Italian food, Italian wine, or the very best, European food, Italian wine. So when we're talking about, you know, Dutch food, okay, we're still European, but then we're going to Indian food, which again, okay. It's still kind of like mainstream so to speak. It's still very popular. But then we're also talking about Indonesian food, which like you correctly said, it's not as well known. It's not as popularized at least in Western culture. I feel that's a really unique spin on it. And I feel that's something important that we need to keep in mind that, yeah, okay. Like Italian wine's there, but it's not just there for Italian food or European food. But it's important to get the most that you can out of Italian wine by pairing with as many different cuisines that you can, you know, because it it will not only elevate the wine, not only elevate the food, but also elevate the wine. Self, and you're just getting more out of it. I couldn't agree more. I don't think that there should be hard lines between if the wine is from somewhere, the food should be from somewhere. Like, it's it's so important to try, like, different things across different cultures, across different countries, and I mean, I haven't had a bad pairing yet. Yeah. There you go. So kind of like to start closing off a bit, something that I really want us to touch before before we close off this episode, is, you know, your unique perspective as, person as an individual who is gen z, who is a student, but also who is, you know, living abroad who has had these, you know, diverse experiences, kind of like how we can make food and wine approach a little more to gen z audiences and student audiences. And something which you said before, which really struck me, and I think it's like a unique take on things is portrayed, you know, showcasing wine as being tied very closely to specific experiences and specific moments and memories. I feel that could be a really, you know, key way to get in more younger audiences who are, you know, rightly so obsessed with and kind of like excited to make memories that will last longer and moments that will last longer. And if you compare a wine, not only with the food, but with these memories, you know, you can remember, oh, I had this specific Lambrusco, when I was in holiday here or when I had this birthday party. I feel that's really interesting. And I feel that's a really good way to kind of like try to rope more younger people into the industry. Yeah. So what is your take on this? What is your take on kind of making the wine and food industry more approachable to gen z and kind of like student generations similar to us. Yeah. So, it I'll speak to Canada first. So in Canada, I think wine is marketed to much older generations with, you know, kind of those that idea of, like, oh, they have a more refined palate, and the culture for young people is definitely beer and seltzer and having those kinds of the different palette, like the different flavor of that, the different excitement of that. And for me, when you talk about the, memories, the food memories, and the wine memories. For me, that is a huge part of traveling. As I said, I've been to forty countries now. And honestly, some of the most poignant memories are when I had a specific meal that, you know, changed my life, you know, in that in that short short moment of time. Or I had a glass of wine or I had a I had a drink that just kind of solidified and cemented in my memory. I remember, like, some of my earliest memories in traveling, I, you know, was five. And we went to on a family trip to Greece, and I can remember the octopus hanging out drying in the sun, and I can remember eating calamari on this little dock somewhere on some random island. And I remember that with my family. And then, you know, fast forward, twenty years later, I still have memories like that. I went a problem recently with a friend, and we had, the most amazing meal and, like, this most the crispest, most lemony and citrus radler in a bar in the middle of prague. And I will forever have that memory in my mind. And then for wine, I talked about earlier, the Lambrusco where I made one of my closest friends in Italy, Alice, and, we have that wine. And now it's kind of a tradition for us to go there and have that wine together, have that lambbrusco. So I think that Yeah. I think the that the wine industry is is lacking in how they market market and approach genzys. I think that, you know, it's very much so, built on the idea of, like, heritage and tradition. And I understand that it's completely valuable for their brands. But I think it doesn't necessarily resonate with gen z's the way the way it should or the way that will help them, you know, get them as young drinkers. Right? Like, if you have a favorite wine and it becomes your favorite wine, you'll drink it for a long time. So I think that's really important for what the wine industry to remember is, like, you need to find a way to capture these people when they're when they're deciding what they like in their youth. And so for the food memories, I think that it would be, you know, not necessarily experiential marketing, but in some way, creating, creating these specific memories this moment in time in their brains with that specific brand. Well, I hundred percent agree because, yes, it's true. Like, what you said may maybe a bit like straightforward, like, very clear cut, but it's true. I love these wineries brand themselves, you know, based on their heritage and their history, which is really good, but I feel that's starting a very specific audience, okay, of the wine drinkers of the wine professionals and the experts, which is good and very important. But if you want to shift your focus towards gen z towards younger generations, I feel you you don't have to remove that part of your marketing on the heritage, but you have to add on to it, marketing very specific on, you know, experiences, memories, wine pairing, wine pairing with your memories, wine pairing moments, resonance wine pairing food. And I think it's also about accessibility. I mean, from, you know, experiencing Italian wine brands here, there's one specifically that comes into mind. It's Tavvernello. And I know they're not, like, I'm not sure how they're, you know, perceived by the Italian, you know, Italian public in terms of wine. But for me, one thing I can say about them is that they're marketing is very unique. If you just look at their Instagram page, they they have kind of a different feel. It's definitely young and youthful, and it's clear that they're trying to attract a larger audience rather than people who've been drinking it just because They've been treating it for the past sixty years. I think something to consider is, like, in North America, there's so many, you know, liquor brands that are owned by celebrities and endorsed by celebrities. I don't necessarily think that's the way forward. I don't think it it is. But I think that it's really important for maybe the wine industry to look at different forms of marketing and different ways to connect with the younger audiences. For the last question, just to close everything off, I love to ask my guests So what are your favorite food and wine pairings? Maybe since you have such diverse heritage, you're gonna give us a wine and food pairing that's, you know, kind of like Italian wines since we are an Italian wine podcast. And a food, you know, from your from your diverse cultures, whether it's India, Indonesian. I can absolutely do that. But picking one dish from all of those that I've experienced and that I'm connected to is it's an under their question. I think I'm gonna see true to my roots. And I will pick an Indian dish. This is a North Indian dish. It's called Malay Kofta. And it's got the fried pineer in it, which I talked about. And the curry is made from cashews, onions, potatoes, spices, and then, like, kind of a cream. And it's It's probably one of the most amazing things I've ever eaten. It's so rich and smooth, and it's a little bit on the sweeter side, but I think it would pair really well with the Joseph Givert Stromaineer that I hadn't mentioned before, because again, it's got the lychee, the pineapple, the apricot with, no, so ginger and honey. And it's just a very it's a very gentle wine, I would say, to go with such a heavy, and and really spiced dish. It it's so it's very acidic, which is so in stark contrast to the sweet and creaminess of the curry. And, you know, it's it's got a very light body, which I think is necessary in this type of Well, that sounds like a lovely pairing. So I'm really excited to try it as well with the wine, which I will not attempt to pronounce. Yeah. This was a lovely interview. Really interesting. I love hearing your any takes, not only on food online, but someone culture and the life in general. So thank you very much for being my guest for today. You're very welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. Okay. This has been another episode of next generation. So thank you very much to everyone for tuning in for listening to another episode of next generation with me, your host, on the assigned wine podcast. Thanks a lot and see you for the next one. Thanks for tuning in today for another episode of the next generation of Italian Warren podcast. See you for the next one.