Ep. 1043 Diana Verde Nieto | Uncorked

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an exclusively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. And tickets are on sale now. The first early bird discount will be available until August twenty second. For more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hello, everybody. My name is Holly Hammond, and you are listening to Uncorked, the Italian wine podcast series about all things marketing and communication. Join me each week for candid conversations with experts from within and beyond the wine world as we explore what it takes to build a profitable business in today's constantly shifting environment. This week, we're joined by Diana Verenieto. Cofounder and CEO of Positive Luxury. Long before sustainability was a buzzword, Diana and her team began working with luxury organizations to support awareness and improvements in ESG goals. Today, we tap into her twenty years of experience to better understand what is really motivating change. How the luxury market is different, and how consumers and producers alike can balance our pragmatic needs with sustainable choices. Let's get into it. Welcome, Diana. I'm so pleased to finally have you on the podcast. On this, our last opportunity in July before all of Europe goes on holiday next week. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for having us. It's a real pleasure to to actually finally meet you. I know. So I would love it if you could for the benefit of our audience. Hello everyone a little bit more about what positive luxury does. For some of our audience, you might be a little bit of a dark horse coming in despite a twenty year long mission, with the business. So what is positive luxury? Well, thank you very much for the question. So what we do is, we help companies to trucks to transition to a new climate economy. And we talk about climate because this is from two points of use on the environmental side and the side. So climate will affect everything and everyone. So at post the luxury, when you kind of, join and, through the certification process, basically, what we do. The first thing we do is we, run a diagnostic, an ESG plus diagnostic, so an environmental social governance and innovation, assessment. And what we do is we invite a cross functional team to, go into our assessment, which is totally digital, and actually, put into the assessment everything that is having regarding sustainability up across across the organization. Not everything that is actually happening, but everything that you intend to do, but also the things that you might not have. And then within one to three months, that team will create the baseline across ESG plus And then is when the hard work starts. So we kind of, give you a very concise picture of your business, and tell you what the areas are you lagging, the areas that you're good, and the areas that you're doing really well. And then we help you to actually bridge those gaps. So moving from lagging to good, from good to, excellent. And then we look at what is your ESG performance, what is the risk associated with your performance, and then we look at what is material to your business. And that doesn't cost businesses any more money. We do this as part of what we do. And it's not perhaps, consulting, but just really guiding the company to really operationalized sustainability, not just basically setting up goals and intentions, but actually really embedded it into the day to day operations. And this is where it's really exciting to work with. Best in class organizations that are really committed. To actually make a positive impact in the world. For certification programs, you were one of the earliest ones positive luxury and your work specifically. So I'm curious. It, obviously, now we all are aware of the the need, the immediate and profound need for change. How are you seeing the application starting point, shift over over time. So for instance, did it used to be that people would come to you and they'd be doing absolutely nothing? And now they're coming to you and they're, you know, eighty percent along the path, and they just need support on that last twenty percent. Think it's a very difficult question to answer because the context has also dramatically changed. So in the very beginning, you know, when we started, the expectations from the investment community or for the consumers was almost not there at all. In fact, you know, the media even didn't really actually want to know about sustainability. But as we actually move towards, twenty twenty three, I would say, the and this is next year, the incremental and exponential global knowledge of this topic, especially with the summer that we are all having, is becoming imperative. The big shift happens pre COVID. I would actually go, yeah, basically pre covid and and, during cop twenty six. So, these two, I guess, pivotal points, made the general consumer globally to be more connected to the outside world. And what I mean that is with nature and our dependency to nature. The second point that we also see in COVID twenty six is the fact that the investment community for the first time has created a very thorough measurement called DCFT that enables, or will enable every company to be able to be compared against each other. And this actually is gonna be absolutely groundbreaking for everybody, as, you know, kind of this has been developed. And it's still kind of a long way to go, but we are hoping that in the next Probably twelve months, we actually have some really interesting development from our reporting perspective. So with investment community on board, the consumers really now engaged and actually being much more mindful about what they buy, why they buy it, do they need it and their relationship with with nature. And at the same time, with businesses internalizing these externalities, It's not yet, but it will be the perfect storm globally very, very soon. Interesting. So what you're describing is the formation of, of basically benchmark unified benchmarks that instead of you've got, you know, sort of one pocket of measurables or benchmarks, in one continent or in one industry, am I understanding that correctly that now we're going to have a a much more clearly defined a unified benchmark that we can all measure ourselves together and against. Absolutely. And the role of positive luxury is to, incorporate all the different frameworks and create a very thorough, melting pot of all the frameworks. So any in any company, any industry will be able to collect all the data in our platform. We'll be able to report from our platform form will be able to save the data that platform and also create, you know, kind of dynamic materiality, double materiality from a climate perspective and from a sustainability standpoint, benchmarking, of course, And, yeah, I mean, this is very kind of, this is coming up very, very much, rapidly. And it will be, kind of, you know, mandatory. I think it's twenty twenty six. If I'm not mistaken. You and positive luxury, you work across, luxury sectors. What is it about luxury that is different? How how does how does the framework needed or the goals or the measurements differ between a luxury brand and, you know, a non luxury brand. Well, I'd like to start with defining luxury. So the traditional definition of luxury is pretty much gone, so which was about opulence and waste and, almost not inclusive. There is no room for a wasteful luxury industry or an opulent luxury industry. So we divide luxury into three segments. First or foremost is, obviously aspirational luxury, and that is you know, your chanels, yours, yours, your your hermes, and then you go into more accessible luxury, which are kind of almost like the rest of the industry. And that kind of applies across the entire luxury industry, whether it's a handbag, whether it's a, bottle of wine or, a bottle of whiskey. And then you have the new the new comments, companies like Cecilia Banson, for example, which are new designers, but actually are embodying all the attributes of luxury, and that is design, its craftsmanship, it's enable, you know, the longevity, of the materials is about the way that the product is made is this, Sabafir, and most importantly, is enable the relationship with nature. So in the case of Brooke is nature that talks about when the cycle is done. Is nature that says, okay. This is now ready to be drunk. So I guess this this delta of time is massively important. It's true that luxury is lower. But is lower for a reason. And the other attributes of luxury is, on the whole, it's much more, mindful in terms of how things are made, and actually preserving that that craft. So, so why luxury is because of all of that? So I personally don't believe there will be room for a fast world. Like fast fashion, for example, because Sure. Raw materials will be so exponentially expensive. From an energy perspective, from a water scarcity perspective, from climate change perspective, and from a people's migration perspective, which may will make raw materials very expensive. And, for that very reason, we won't be able to perhaps use them as fast as we normally are using it today, like, without cost fashion industry, for example, or a fast beauty or jewelry industry, which is, like, you know, jewelry stuff that you buy and do freehand washes and you have to, you know, kind of recycle your ring because it's just pointless. So I think the mindset will change because the context is changing. And I think this summer is being very poignant to to show the northern hemisphere how vulnerable we are to climate, and the consequences of energy. And we will see this, kind of flipping, as soon as our winter starts, and the climate get colder for us, but incredibly hot for the southern hemisphere. So I really think that for the first time in history, we understand that, you know, our footprint, it's massively interlinked to the context and the earth. And you know, what was very interesting is that in COVID twenty six, we're not, so many, climate, I would say non believers. The theory of climate change being on a man at man main, phenomena, was not perhaps as debated as have, been in the past, which I think is a massive progress to mankind because now you could recognize the problem we perhaps together could find a solution. Up to something that you touched upon. This is a question that I have all the time around choices, and I'll admit that I do love luxury goods. So everyone can just kind of, you know, take that for what it is. I know that I know they'll get some responses for that. How do we balance our need to only have to buy something once, to buy something that we invest in that's going to last forever. And in that state, I'm I'm going to use something like using leather and buy a leather handbag versus buying something that is more ethical toward animal life. So that would be a vegan leather, which is ultimately a plastic with the concerns around plastic productions, or textiles which carry their own, you know, carry their own environmental weight and do not last as long. How does it everyday consumer or how does a producer make informed decisions that balance lifetime of a product with environmental impact of a product. I think innovation is the answer. So what we have seen is the fact that You know, the re world has actually taken off in a way that, you know, it has it has not been seen. So you can buy from free love, luxury goods. You don't have to buy new. You can repair, which is something that we never used to do. You definitely can resell. So don't think that you can buy that skirt or that leather bag and you just need to keep it forever. You can resell it and probably get almost if it's a good handbag almost the same price that you put it. Sometimes. Two or more. Yeah. You know, actually, I was totally amazed to know that handbags are actually an asset class. So if if you get divorced, in some countries, your handbags and your wardrobes are an asset class. It has to be on your divorce papers. This is the, this is probably the answer of what I was, What to your question is like, you know, you don't have to buy once and never again. You can buy. You can resell. And I think the longevity and and the beauty of of wherever you're buying, you know, it will prevail. The other point is that I don't know you, but sometimes I cannot afford that really beautiful coat. But I don't need to buy a coat every season. I wait and safe. I buy a second hand. And, you know, And if it breaks, you repair it. A lot of luxury goods, brands are actually giving you a lifetime guarantee. And there are places like the raspberry that you can actually take a brilliant I don't know, skirts or what have you, and they actually will recondition it to almost new. So, you know, the world is not what it used to be, and the real world is taken off. You know what I love about that? So, my daughters are avid vintage shoppers, and not like thrift store vintage, but like beautiful secondhand products. I don't know if you saw this in, in social media recently. There was a piece of research that went out that showed how the color palette of our lives has simplified. It used to be bright, vivid, beautiful colors. And most recently, it's whites and grays and blacks. And and I was actually thinking about this with, how my children and their friends, gen z years dress, because they're tapping into this vintage market, They're actually full of texture and color and, you know, maximalism and beauty, and it is entirely through as you say that e commerce space. And Maybe this is where they're giving us as, you know, their elders the ability to, you know, it didn't used to be accepted for a lot of women to shop secondhand, and then definitely not to openly acknowledge that you were shopping secondhand for goods or that you were renting address? I love it. Absolutely. Love it. So free because you a, well, I guess, depends on how much you care, but to have in terms of, you know, telling the story of what you bought. For me, it's not as important because I'm not a shopper. So what I buy are bike quality, I rather buy quality. And I love the sixties. So sometimes you find those unique pieces are absolutely beautiful, and you can wear it over and over again. And there are also amazing brands that do upcycle. So, for example, I have a skirt that is have a Chanel skirt, and the other half is this really cool lace. Sounds disgusting but it's really cool. And, and, you know, I I bought it, again, pretty love. And you will not you will not believe it. So I think and also the fact that I don't like to be like everybody else. I have my own style, for better or for worse. But what which is again something now that thanks to YouTube and the internet and Instagram and, you know, this movement, the aesthetic movement, right, where you see all around you, people who are choosing to dress his historically, you know, dress in in almost what's like a a character that they've adopted. Again, this is something that I've seen that didn't exist in the broad market. Until, you know, kind of the past ten, maybe even five years. So I I just I I'm fascinated actually at how we are learning in so many aspects of responsibility, we are learning from our children or for some people, their grandchildren, you know, the the generation that's coming before us who's always lived in a world that is on fire I agree with you. I mean, I'm learning from my godchildren. And, what they're teaching me is the fact that, you know, you can do digital makeup. You can do digital dresses, crystal skirts, I mean, it's amazing the stuff that they do. No idea. I can't really explain to you how, but, I've seen it and it's it's great. It's just, you know, they they leave the way in a in a much more free way than than we did, at their age, I would say. It's so true. Possibly even at our age. It's funny. So you have, you have an article from January of twenty twenty two, in which You quote a researcher who said customers or excuse me, consumers across generations will stop buying if you are not promoting social and or environmental sustainability. And what I wonder is in practice with positive luxury, are you seeing that statement around generations to be true? Because for a long time, it's been bandied about that the older generation really isn't they're not interested in making responsibly motivated consumer choices. I think it is true because, but the drivers, what drives that statement, I think, is very different. Depends of how old you are. So for the older demographic, is about giving back in set depends on your stage of life. It's about, you know, having the the ability to operate responsibly and being able to tell a story. And also with your peers, it's not very good to turn up in your aston marting and leave it idling For example, there will be somebody from your friends that will call you out. You know, but if you turn up in your Tesla, that would be super cool. So, you know, it's people across different generations have different idea of what sustainability means. But ultimately, everybody wants to do the right thing. And I think that's the big change that it has happened is the fact that people are perhaps, I wouldn't say a lot more conscious because I'm not really sure about that, but definitely mindful of, not just what is their impact in the environment, but how other people see them? What does this action says about them? Yep. Peer pressure, whether whether they're doing it necessarily with the right motivation or not. I mean, I I've I've talked about this in marketing for a long time. If I have a a brand who needs to be more representative or more inclusive yes, I would love it if they're doing it for all the right reasons, but even if they're not doing it for the right reasons, I still expect them to do it. You know, like, you it it's it's lovely when the stars align and things happen exactly as they should for the reasons they should, but it's still important even if it's just because of peer pressure right now that the right things are being done. It took me a long time to be willing to admit that publicly true too, that I didn't care if your motivations weren't right. I still wanted you to do the work correctly. Yeah. I mean, it's you're totally right on that, and I'm I'm I'm in your camp in terms of it. It doesn't really matter why you do it as long as you actually get it done. Yeah. So, so with that in mind, I'm really curious the brands that you are working with. What when they when they're going through the process with you, How do they communicate this to their consumers? Or or do they? Or is this quiet actions? I mean, the first thing, the motivation for brands that that that we work with to do this is you know, it's not the consumer per se. It's retention. It's employees. It's ensuring that they actually have a better business going forward. It's, you have better return of investment on your on your sustainability and your business if you actually invest in sustainability, for many, many, many reasons. So, I mean, luxury brands traditionally did not want to communicate. They're still today. It's not about the communications that you and I will kind of, classify as communication, like an advert or things like that. He's more it's more about allowing people to discover that the brands that they love is they're actually doing you know, the right thing, and I'm actually taking the necessary steps in order to become more socially and environmentally, conscious or, friendly whatever time you want to use. So for us, for the brands that we work in, the main driver does not to communicate, is it to actually do it, because the returns are much higher. And also, they will be in a better position going through the assessment and understanding exactly where they are, in order to go forward. Because we look at legislation as one of the drivers, and this is obviously, you know, if you are ahead of legislation, you are you have a massive competitive advantage. So, so the driver says that is financial to start because you will have, you know, a, forward thinking, what's it called? An advantage You know, you would be further ahead than other brands that they are just paying lip service. There is there is no return for greenwashing, none zero. In fact, minus, because now you get find Life, for example, today, I think it was, who just got fined for false claims. So the return of investment of sustainability is massive. Absolutely massive. So one of the bits of research that I found very interesting was on this topic called green hushing. Now this was specific to the wine industry. And what it was talking about is that there are so many brands who are doing amazing things, big or small, but that their fear of maybe I haven't gotten it done right, maybe I'm not doing enough. You know, someone's gonna poke a hole, and it prevents them from communicating that Is this is there an equivalent, in the work that you're doing where you get brands who as you're going through the audits and the framework, you discover that they're doing a whole bunch of stuff that when you did maybe your initial discovery or introduction to the brand, they just never even thought about as important? Absolutely. And it's not just wines. I mean, wines, fashion, hotels, people are because right now everyone talks about sustainability. Everybody is just basically claiming stuff and so on. The brands are actually doing it. They're thinking, oh my god, am I gonna be part of this whole kind of conversation, and then everybody will go down. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like the reverse psychology. Yeah. And this is why certifications are so important. Because you have a third party that verify your claims. And you go through a process, you get all the documentation, you get recertify every two years of positive luxury, and also is not a blended score. Is not good enough to have great environmental credentials or terrible social ones or not enough governance or definitely not think about the future three innovation. You have to score fifty percent across each one of these areas as a baseline as a minimum. From that, we help you to really start incorporating the principles of sustainable development for everything, for product development, from working with your suppliers, for, water conservation, for security, for you know, biodiversity, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So it's about, you know, it's it's about differentiating themselves because everybody now have something to claim about sustainability. Sure. So, in the in the brands and especially when we're looking with luxury, there is an assumption, and you correct me if this is wrong, that luxury brands have greater resources than, you know, necessarily a mom and pop brand on the corner. Are you finding that these, corporations or independent businesses are hiring roles specifically to address their sustainability actions or needs? Yes. I'm not. Most companies are embedded, especially the younger businesses. So they're looking for people across every sector or every vertical in the business marketing, supply chain, government and so on without actually to have a notion notion of sustainability. So people think sustainability is our vertical in the business, but it's actually a horizontal in the business. It's like technology. Technology used to be a vertical. But now technology is totally horizontal. Technology touches every area of the business, whether it's logistics, whether it's marketing, whether it's flight chains, whether it's everything is touched through technology or digital. And sustainability is this is exactly the same. You can actually put the two curves like to like, and you can actually see very much similarities. So I think that the the younger brands have actually an advantage because the the they actually can hire they can be born with sustainability at the heart of it. They Right. The older brands, the disadvantaged that they have is that they are very hierarchical, they're global. So they need to re engineer, re educate everybody to think about sustainability. And this is why the board is so crucial and so important to have a really proactive boards that actually helps, the exec team to to really operationalize this and understand how this can actually be part of every single job and also get remunerations for being more sustainable. So it's not just like, you know, the chief sustainability officer is sustain it has sustainability as part of this mandate. It's absolutely everybody, that has sustainability as part of the mandate. That that's interesting to me because I can see how that as as a culture shift, right, within a business is predicated upon having, a a way to communicate. You know, and and that's an open mindedness that certainly gets into much deeper business issues than we're go going to go into here. But just if it's the hope and responsibility of people across all points in the business, to be able to move forward with sustainability actions. One would assume that there also has to be some method of communicating, is safely suggestions, improvements, impediments that they might be seeing. And I love. I absolutely love you. I think you you have been much more eloquent than I have been, which is about sustainability is culture. It's part of the culture and the DNA of the business. And that should be incorporated as part of the values of the business. But actually those values is not something that you put in a wall and that's that. You have to live those values. And that's what is perhaps much more, I guess, fair to say that sustainability should live in the values of the business, not in the purpose statement of a company. So in that way, you can leave leave it every day embedded into everything that you do from the way that you think about the SD quality and inclusion, from the way that you buy your raw materials, from the way that you have relationships with your suppliers and what you are expecting from them. The way that you develop your suppliers in a more conscious way so they can grow with you and they understand your expectations and you help them to grow sustainably their business themselves. So and that has to be a true partnership and collaborations across every business with their suppliers and the entire ecosystem. So I think it's a shift. It's a cultural shift, like you said, that is the next stage of sustainability. I think that's the new frontier. That's what's coming. When brands are coming to you or working with you or in the course of all of the research that you're doing, what are the most common misconceptions that present brands from adopting this cultural shift? Is it money, time, fear, know how, resources? All the above resources. Resolutions. Everybody's super stretch and super busy. And this is, like you said, it's like changing, you know, like, the engine of our seven forty seven mid air is challenging, but it's imperative. If you want to blend the plane safely, So, you've just given me a very lovely accidental segue into one of the things I wanted to talk about. We're here in Europe. We're watching the world open up. We're reading the news about everything that's going wrong in our airports and and are flying. And this has been something. Like I said, for me, I'm sort of seeing the the big and small pieces of sustainability more and more every day. Certainly more than my eyes were opened to it ten years ago. It's a question for me. For me, this always seems to come back down to balance. So if we're looking at something like post pandemic spending or post pandemic travel and happiness factors and mental health, because these can all support one another, But then they all have this enormous detriment. I mean, we know travel is such such a consumer. Right? How do we as individuals, how do employees, how do brands balance the kind of happiness needs for consumption and and experiences with the you know what? We'd all be better if we stayed home a little bit more, turned the air conditioner down a little bit more, you know, bought less stuff had fewer endorphin rushes. I don't agree with that because it's very hard to do that over time, and and even if you even think about this as forever. So I think travel is not a bad thing because if you go to Latin America, which is the developing world, or Africa, which is the developing world, and you spend your pounds, your dollars, your euros, and you help to develop those economies, that's not a bad thing. So, you know, yes, okay, the carbon emissions, but the realities that you can control, instead of taking ten suitcases, ten one, you know, instead of, kind of, have four stopovers, fly direct. So there's small stuff that you can do as a consumer that even when you go and fly the other side of the world, you can do it more efficiently. And the weight of your suitcase is one of those. And the other thing is, you know, you have to have, like you said, that balance. So instead of taking ten holidays, you can do five holidays abroad, and you can do five holidays, in your own country. I mean, this year, I, for example, I'm staying this summer in the UK. Why? Because it's beautiful. So why would I wanna go anywhere else? I'm gonna explore areas that I haven't been. I'm gonna go to Scotland. I'm really looking forward to that. And, yeah, I mean, of course, I want to go to my own country, but I will leave that to later on the year, which will be better climate. And, yeah, instead of taking two or three flights to, to see my own family, I would take one. So I'm not giving you this answer from a sustainability, post the luxury perspective. I'm giving you this answer as a consumer as as as a person. This is what I do in order to have a better footprint. I actually really love that that was the answer you give. You gave, and it wasn't the one that I was expecting by any means, but like you, I'm an expat. You know, it was always a balance between what were the time, money, carbon costs of being able to see my family. In my case, it was what do I do about my clients? You know, I I've talked about the fact that, one of the things that I love about living in Barcelona I don't have to own a car anymore. You know, I don't have to get on planes and go twenty five hours to see my clients. And it didn't start as something that was an active sustainability choice. It started as a lifestyle choice that when I when I was immersed in it, I was just like, wow. Why would I ever go back to all of these other mechanisms that I understand I'm not as happy doing it. It it's not as cost effective. It's not as, it's not as environmentally friendly. So, yeah, it it it does really come at least for me from a you know, the personal perspective and then the professional and environmental perspective followed from that. Yeah. And I think, you know, kind of just barely know what to say, the pandemic the silver lining of the pandemic is enable us to actually, be more acceptable to have a meeting, you know, over Zoom instead of having to fly for a day to the buy. What's the point of that? And actually, you know, spend more time with your family, and have less business travel. I mean, that is something that is is is for me, is the silver lining for from the pandemic. And that actually for women, it's a massive, massive benefit. I read a stat that there are more, moms going back to work. And to tell you the truth, when I was younger, I had to make a choice whether I wanted to have kids or I wanted to have a career. Today young women don't have to make that choice any longer. Because, you know, the way that we have lived through the pandemic without any physical contact and without you know, being able to do our to do businesses from home has enabled us to to really build relationship in a different way. And, you know, now it's possible to actually work. Part of your time at home. You have this ham this hybrid, way of working and so on and so forth. So I think that in many ways, Things are slightly better than they were, specifically on this travel, presentism face to face stuff. A wholeheartedly. And going back to the part of it around women and how women work, I think one of the other things And this is going off from sustainability, is that it has reminded everyone that, you know what, families are a very important part of life. I I've recorded webinars where I have PhDs sitting there answering questions about the fine wine market and their kids are sitting on their laps. And, you know, and and that that was an enormous cultural shift that came from the pandemic for which I am so, so grateful. And if it's, you know, if we're looking at cultural changes happening within businesses that keep their employees happy, that keep great lines of communication open. You know, that's certainly one of them. I do know it's I do know it's a digression, but Shout out to Zoom working with your kids on your lap. So you produce a you produce several reports, throughout the year. As a matter of fact, you produce one annual report every year that is predictions. Can you talk a little bit about that and anything that you'd be willing to share from your twenty twenty two predictions? Yes. Of course. I mean, when you said you, you mean my team. Right? Because Yes. Mean, absolutely. Do you have an amazing team? I deal with your team, and they are lovely and on the ball. So the positive luxury team, comes together and does these awesome series ports and white and white papers. No. No. No. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I have we very well, I'm very lucky to work with an incredible team. I also do have a cofounder that, is absolutely incredibly creative and knowledgeable. So, I also work with fantastic partners to to produce these reports and and to get these insights. So, what we do is we research during the the year, all the trends that we see and so on, and then we kind of test those hypotheses before we write the report. So it's quite actually quite interesting to look back and see how how on the money we have been, and it's very, very interesting. So, yeah, I mean, we could never predict the pandemic. That was not we got that very, very wrong. But I think everyone did, though. You're forgiven. Thank you. But, I mean, in terms of, the predictions, we have been pretty man bad on the money. And I will make no justice to to really kind of go through them. I will invite you and everybody else to go to post at luxury dot com, go to the knowledge section, download the reports, obviously free of charge. And, and, yeah, absolutely. Just, feel free to to make any comments and to email us if you have anything, but just to read them and and learn. I still go and and refer back to things that we wrote a couple of years ago. As a as a reference point. And the other thing is we also have mini reports every month or every other month. So sign up to a newsletter and, and just get those. We we love expressways, but spreading knowledge and also working with partners because this world without collaboration is not much of a fun place. So we really definitely, reach out and talk to experts in many different fields and, bring that together to to all our clients and anybody that actually is interested. Well, so I will say that as, as a marketing agency dealing with lots of clients, I rely on reports like yours. So I've got your reports all on my computer because they are the they are nuggets. Right? We can go in and instead of me having to go in and do all that research, I can go right in. I can present them to my client. My clients understand that they're credible, that this isn't me making some kind of arbitrary guess about, you know, when I'm sitting in the room of what I think is going to happen, they're incredibly valuable for us, when we're doing things like macro and micro environmental analysis because we we do a a heavy focus on, all of the external environment, so all the pestle factors, right, things that that you maybe don't know are coming at you, but you need to know about in order to be resilient. And so For for businesses and marketers and brand builders listening, that's what I would say. The right used to me, because then I have that all of all of that those resources and that knowledge sitting in my head, and I can help all of my clients with, with that data as well. And I have to say, Paulie, I mean, we did a remember the women out there we did. We did this. I know how long ago, time is the blur, on wines just when we launched our wine report. And, you know, just basically talking to you. I was like, oh my god. We need to update this report because, you know, you have also because you read so much and you have so many other resources, it's like, you know, it's like never ever is a finished product. So the reports we sometimes go back and update them because then you find somebody like, you know, you that have a completely different point of view and is so knowledgeable in some areas that we might not be as strong and, yeah, and you learn. And I think that everybody should be humble to to to to do that, to to learn from others. Well, we were, we were just, I just interviewed to Darren OMP who's from, Australia and the Australian wine industry. And we were talking about the fact that you know what? There are no marketers today. Working today. No professional marketers who didn't start our careers when we were all still watching TV none of us are experts, and we are all still learning. And I think that that pro you know, going back to culture, probably the most formative value that I have in five Forest is just like my clients, we are always learning because it is always a moving target no matter how sustainable we are, no matter how good we are at marketing or development or technology, tomorrow, there's going to be something new. And, and that's probably when I think about resources. One of the hardest resources to come by is the time, you know, and the the know how to access all of that information. So I would encourage anyone who's listening to go into positive luxury dot com and download those. I use those for my own client work in incredibly valuable. So what's what's on the horizon for positive luxury and say the next six to nine months. Do you have anything exciting? Any initiatives coming down the line? Yes. We do. Well, the most exciting one is the fact that finally after three years of course or two and a half years of course, we are going back to the US and is basically getting the internal internalization. Did I said that right? You did. Thanks. Phase, started or or continue, basically. So that's super super exciting. We have, we work in our twenty twenty three predictions report, which I find fascinating. We're working on to our new assessment which will be launched in the beginning of twenty twenty three. And that will, basically get everybody that level up. So every brand has to be recertified every two years. To keep them ahead, basically. Sure. So, yeah, that's kind of, like, in the immediate. That's a lot. When do you sleep? What happens? You know, my secrets have a fantastic co founder called Amy. That she is, like, you know, short of a superwoman and, or wonder woman, whatever is the right way. And I have a fantastic team. So like I said, when you say you, I feel sometimes quite embarrassed because there is a there is so many incredible humans behind positive luxury that just basically talking to me doesn't make a justice to to to the value and the power and the enthusiasm and the knowledge of my team. Excellent. Excellent. I I feel the exact same way about mine, and I know yours, so I know that that's true. So for anyone who, maybe they don't live in the luxury space, their brand doesn't, fit those requirements, They can still go online. They can get the reports. They can read the research. They can follow you on social where I know that you talk a lot about what you're doing. So is that at positive luxury across all channels? That is at positive luxury indeed across all channels. We're super active in LinkedIn. We share about, things that we do, but also we share about things that our impact network does and also that our brands do as well and and colleagues and partners. And also, of course, you can subscribe to our newsletter, and that is super interesting because you receive it every week. And, yeah, I think that's probably a good summary. That that's a good start. Diana, thank you so much for your time. I hope that now on a Friday night, You can put your feet up and and enjoy a glass of wine and cuddle with your doggy and have a very lovely air conditioned weekend in the UK. Absolutely. That is exactly minus the air conditioning I'm gonna do. And that's a wrap. Thank you for listening, and a great big thank you to Diana for joining me today. The Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with daily episodes. Tune in each day and discover all our different shows. Be sure to join us next Sunday for another look at the World of wine marketing. We hope you enjoy today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in verona Italy. Remember, the first early bird discount on tickets will be available until August twenty second. For more information, please visit us at y to y dot net. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, quests and ideas. 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