Ep. 1149 Felicity Carter | Uncorked

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an exclusively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. Tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hello, everybody. My name is Holly Hammond, and you are listening to uncorked, the Italian wine podcast series about all things marketing and communication. Join me each week for candid conversations with experts from within and beyond the wine world as we explore what it takes to build a profitable business in today's constantly shifting environment. When Felicity Carter called me this year and asked if I wanted to go with her to media fest twenty twenty two in Washington, DC, I had no idea that we would be walking into a room of seven hundred and fifty season journalists and incoming student journalists. Today, we sit down to discuss what we learned. The state of journalism now insights from the conference, what it takes to make it in content these days. Oh, and some insights from five days of eating and drinking in the US capital. This is a no holds barred chat between wine friends, and we invite you to come along. Let's get into it. Good morning. Lovely, Felicity. How are you? Good morning, Polly. I'm very well. How are you? I am recovering. You and I got home on Monday. And it is Thursday. And, yeah, it took a little while to to get caught up on some sleep. DC was a bit of a whirlwind. I went to bed and I slept for thirteen hours straight. And then the next night, I slept for ten hours. That's how much sleep I missed our home while we were in Washington. I mean, I suppose that's probably indicative of pretty good, sojourn as it were, maybe getting a little bit too old for it. But I wanted to scoot you in today because You and I have just spent a week in Washington, DC, where we went to a conference on journalisming as we are. That's right. And we went we went on holiday by mistake. It wasn't quite the conference we thought it was going to be. It it was a little but it was it was definitely worthwhile. The humor in it is I had to become a registered journalist in order to get it to this conference. You, of course, are are an absolute old hat journalist. So I I think that I was the tag along. There were, you know, you and I at. We talked about the content of the conference. We talked about the experience in DC. And even insofar as on that plane back home, there were like these, oh, things that we're reading coming out of America are maybe starting to make sense. And I thought that it would be interesting both for our writers and our wine writers, but also for our drinkers and, you know, just like general trade people who listen to to hear some of, that experience. So that's what we're doing today. Right. So what kind of conference? What kind of conference did you take me to, Misty? Well, it was the society for pro- professional journalists in the USA. But what they didn't add on their website was that it was also, they'd hooked up with the student journalists association. So it was primarily for student journalists, not for professional journalists. So we went there, and we suddenly found that we were surrounded by nineteen, twenty, twenty one year olds, all eager to learn how to be the next, Woodwood and Bernstein. Well, and and that is the clincher. That was how you got me on that plane, is that the keynote for the event was Woodwood and Bernstein, for their fiftieth anniversary of their coverage of the Watergate scandal? Yeah. It was pretty incredible. They were awesome. They didn't come until the second day. So we get in there. We're surrounded by all of these students, and I remember just being like, Okay. But, actually, there were some things that I loved about it. And I'm gonna start off by saying, it wasn't cynical. Nah. You know, it was hopeful. Yeah. That's right. Well, you know, it was very American in the sense that, American journalism still, you know, rightly sees itself as one of the legs of democracy. And so the the whole conversation was very elevated, actually. It was very idealistic. About what journalism can be and what the best of journalism can be. So so being Australian and, you know, the the only journalism conferences I've been to in Australia were for freelancers where almost relentlessly for three days to talk about money? Who's paying what? Where can you find the money? Who should she be pinching? How can you patch a living together? And and they didn't cover any of that, which I thought they should have covered some of it, but they did they did do a lot of talking about the role of journalism and society and what your responsibilities are, which was really was really interesting actually. And it was quite inspiring. Were there any big takeaways? You were like, oh, I knew this, but maybe I forgotten it, or I I don't keep it front of mind as I'm undertaking my own journalist. And because, of course, we all know you for the work that you do in in wine, but you write well beyond. I mean, you write for science, you write for the guardian, you've written some very interesting pieces for the Guardian that have had, much feedback from the reader community. So you were not just a wine writer. Well, one of the things that that really I took away from it was one of the things that came up in the Woodwood and Bernstein. Keynote where, they were talking about the difficulty of getting, you know, this was a vast scandal involving the very top of government. And they couldn't get people at the top of government to talk to them, of course, So what they did was they went and they interviewed people who were much lower down the scale, and that's where they got their big stories. And I think it was Bernstein that said always interview people at the bottom, not at the top. So And I think about how and why we're always interviewing people and I've been guilty of this, always interviewing people at the top, the people that own the Chateaus, the people who are the CEOs of company, but we don't go out and interview people in the workplace or in the vineyard. And that's really something that we should do. It's a great segue. Actually, you released an article today that perhaps that applies to. You released an article on the glass industry. That was maybe not the easiest information you've ever gotten, you know, out of line. Did you say that's something like that that's starting at the bottom and just, like, the tenacity and that just don't give up. Keep going for it. In that sense, it does apply to wine. Right? That's right. So I was looking at the price of glass fossils and how the invasion of Ukraine has driven up the the price of glass for all kinds of reasons, particularly the price of gas. And I tried for several weeks, I could not get anybody from the glass companies to actually speak to me. I mean, I was led up all sorts of blind alleys. I tried all sorts of things. I tried making up email addresses to see if I could get through. And eventually, I thought, you know what? I'll just go and talk to people who are affected by this, and that's when the story came together. I didn't actually need the big players in the end. I just talked to people, you know, who are affected by it, who are trying to buy bottles, and and you can tell there's a terrible problem. My shake away is really quickly on this. Wow. Line puts on fabulous Yeah. They do. I don't. We have much better phones. We have food, and we've got good alcohol, and we're all very congenial, you know, like and and of course, we live in such a tiny, tiny bubble in wine, but it was that we have, we have excellent conferences. And also, I think, as presenters, because there are a fair few of us who do who do this, right? Not that we're necessarily MPS scored as as people are walking out of the room, but we know that there's this element of entertainment that we have to bring. But for the most part, you know, we go in and we're like, right. What's my narrative arc and what are people gonna get out of it? And, you know, just a bit bit of showmanship, that I did not see. No, we did not, but I think there's a couple of reasons for that. So first of all, professional conference organizers are very aware of giving, you know, value for money for the, the people who pay to come along and see it. And so they score you when you go and speak. So if you wanna speak again, you know that you have to be fairly highly rated or, you know, you die in the dust out the back, basically. And the second thing is that more and more conference organizers are asking you to give takeaways from your speech that they can give to people. And so you have to think really hard about how the audience is going to use the information. And that was, that was sadly lacking among some of America's finest journalists who are great writers and, and great on camera. One of the things that I thought was super interesting is the extent to which the conference focused on social media Yeah. And newsletters as just a a absolute must for professional journalists and for publications. I know that you had some thoughts on those sessions. I did. Well, I, you know, as as you know, because we sat there discussing it with a a professor of broadcasting who was telling us about the social media, session. I actually felt that they went off on the wrong direction. So to give an overview, students went along to a session where they were told how to brand themselves as journalists, including you know, finding fonts that they could have on their website that they should put on their business cards to choosing colors to building their social media following. And I I really disliked this. I think the intrusion of marketing into something that has nothing to do with marketing bothered me. So what this professor was saying was saying, yes, but if you wanna get a job, you have to stand out and editors will look at how many followers you have because they wanna commission you and they wanna know that people will read your stories. And actually, I've been a commissioning editor for fifteen years, and it's the other way around. We don't care at all about somebody's social media following, but we do care sometimes about the social media followings as the people we interview. So this is our dirty little secret. Sometimes we interview people knowing that if they share it on social media, we'll get a big a big bounce. But certainly, you know, if you're a journalist, the only thing that matters is the quality of your work, nothing else matters. Okay. So in kind of a roundabout way, that makes me wonder Does the person who I want to interview and they themselves have, you know, two hundred thousand followers or in line, fifty thousand followers? Are they looking at the number of followers I have when they're deciding if they're gonna grant me that interview. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. If you come from a publication, but, you know, they look at Google Analytics, and it doesn't have that many readers or whatever. Yeah. You you won't get the interview. Whereas, if I send out an email that says media request Guardian USA. I get people, you know, I get people calling me in the next fifteen minutes going, I'm ready now. You can interview me right now. Come on. I'm in. I'm good. I'm good to go. Okay. So we're gonna we are gonna bring this around to wine because everybody's like, why are they gonna continue talking about journalism? One of the things that I noticed about it was, across all of the sessions, introduction and moderation. Yeah. And that that being a real skill. I know that you do an absolute ton of mod work, especially in wine conferences. Was there anything that just really grounded you for when you're thinking about the importance of being a good mod or how you engage with both the audience and their Q and A, but what the audience is there for. And that's that's the message of the panelist. Yeah. We saw that we saw that in some of the key notes. Where you had a moderator who had an agenda that, you know, she wanted to get she wanted to hit certain points by the end of the hour. And so the the interviewees were actually going off in a different, but very interesting direction. And instead of letting them go, she cut them off at a really interesting point so that she could hit her agenda. And I was thinking what a mistake that was, that sometimes you just have to let the conversation go in ways that you didn't plan. And, you know, that that on ten eighty will always be more interesting, not always. Sometimes you have to reign it back and pull people back in. But, you know, I think you saw it as well that that sometimes that that rigid insistence on, you know, I've got my script. We have to stick to it. It actually led to a less interesting converse Do you think that journalists now or more specifically content writers are going forward with a more clear cut agenda for what they want to get at the end of the reporting? I think another way of saying this is more people are attempting to control the process in ways that aren't helpful. And it happens on both sides. I've often interviewed people who, you know, will insist on trying to to talking points, because, or, you know, sometimes you send off a media request and you get this big long answer back, written, clearly written by the corporate department saying please attribute it to so and so I never use that stuff because it's so artificial that that actually they damage themselves by trying to control the conversation like that or or interview somebody the other day, and I asked him a question, and he used it as a as a way of trying to advertise his services. And again, I'm not gonna use those answers. So I think I think this increasing tendency on all sides to try and control and manipulate the conversation is really backfiring. I don't know if that answers your question. Well, it does, but because then it then it leaves me to the the, issue of independence. Right? In fact, going back to the woodward and Bernstein, talk one of the things that really stood out was that they had this fabulously supportive owner and publisher, Catherine Graham, who just had their, you know, had their back in everything they did. How much does the leadership and does this apply to wine as well? How much does that leadership really matter in how the stories formed, how we communicate it, how we engage with our audience. It's critical. So one of the things that happens is, a lot of people will try and insert themselves into a story, or they'll try and use a story as a form of advertising. And it can be very hard for journalists to push back against that particularly if you're sitting at lunch and you've accepted hospitality. The the, the urge to turn a piece of journalism into a piece of publicity can be overwhelming or the pressure to do that. And that's really where you need an editor who pushes back and says, all of this is going to be stripped out. And it means that you don't have to, to be making all the hard decisions yourself. When someone's got your back, it really it really helps you navigate some of those things, you know, especially for young journalists, it's really hard to sit there in front of a much colder person, particularly an executive who's got a very powerful personality who wants to insert things into the article. And if that journalist knows that the editor won't tolerate that, it gives them a lot more power in the in the conversation than they otherwise would have had. Not to deride our bloggers. But do you think that this is possibly one of those fundamental differences between staff writer or a journalist or someone who's submitting to an editor versus someone who's blogging because in blogging, it's a lot harder to fall back on me. You know what? This is gonna get stripped. My editor's not gonna allow it. We have policy, you know, whatever that might be. Yeah. I think it's that. I think also there's a couple of other issues as well, which is that when you're, when you're doing it solely for yourself, you know, as as writers or creators of any kind, we, we all have the temptation to be self indulgent and just keep going and going and going. And I certainly give into that when I am not being edited. And what an editor will do is it is we'll force you to focus and strip out the things that aren't aren't relevant, which is much better for your your writing or your photography or whatever. The other thing is It is much harder to resist the pressures of, you know, hospitality and so on when you're just when you're just there by yourself. It's much easier to fall into the sort of what I think of as the copy writing voice where you end up writing publicity for them rather than you know, writing a, an article. Having said that, there's lots of there's lots of really excellent bloggers who are really well aware of that. So, it's it's how much It's not a blanket statement. No. So, okay, moving more into wine, one of the things that really stood out at me and that I saw as an opportunity, we, you know, people look at us and be like, so what are you doing here? What? What? Where do you work? And our answer is, well, we work in wine. And first, there was this, whoo, wine, but then there was a wait. You mean you can be a journalist? Just You didn't have tried to go and blown away by that. Yeah. So talk a little bit about that. Oh, well, that was, I mean, that was really interesting. And of course, you know, we were in this room where people were talking about democracy and about totalitarianism and so on. So so when you say I work in wine and they go, oh, tell me about it. You don't immediately go, well, I sit around all day and I, I taste wine, and then I, I score it, or any of that. So so I kind of, I kind of found myself digging up the the topic a little bit. And so I remember standing there talking to this It's very wide eyed kid about how, grapes were one of the first signs of climate change and how they're very sensitive to what's happening in the world. And if you, if you, if you follow grapes, you can learn a lot about climate change as well. And so it's getting us the more serious side of wine. And actually, as I was talking about it, I was thinking, this isn't really serious subject to report on. And and he was like, wow, wow. I should think about doing that as a career. And I was at that point, I was going, yeah, don't, don't, don't, it's not funny. But that, but that the thing, right, is that I I think I mean, we've talked about this in so many different ways with you and I privately and, as well as, amongst guests on the podcast, we, as an industry, perhaps, don't present ourselves so well or we don't have the opportunity to present ourselves as this is a great way to work. This is a great way to make a career. It's no longer the era of the booth babes, right, we're the only people who get hired. We know exactly. I'm making physical indications of what I'm talking about. And and but it's not just that. It's not just wine. It's that all trades, you know, trades have their niche writers, their experts who coming back to what you always say can be both entertaining and does it provide value, informative? That's right. Be informative. Informative and entertaining. So as we do in any good conference, wine or not, there was a fair bit of eating and drinking that went on, or we attempted we attempted. I I don't think we accomplished it. And that was one of the things that I really wanted to take some time in about. So we've talked about all the journalism stuff. For years, I've been looking at the data, and it's Washington DC, one of the strongest emerging wine markets in America. You know, we're we've been looking at the D2C data coming out as well as the retail data. And here I am. I'm so excited about eating and drinking in DC. And man, it just it it didn't stack up. You did not know. Let's yep. Yeah. Wanna read wasteland. Let me see, Alright. What do you think that because we're a wine podcast. Right? And we're all about to go rock up to wine to wine on the day I think that this comes out. What were you thoughts, Misty? Well, I was really struck by how beautiful the city of Washington is and how clean and how pristine it is. And it's in such a magnificent city. I mean, we walked up to the Lincoln Memorial. We walked to the White House. We did all of that. It's a spectacular city. We were five hundred meters from the White House, aren't hotels like we were, and we were across the street from the Ermez store. We were in a really good part of DC. That's right. And it's such a walkable city, and it's the kind of place where we were walking past not just government offices, but also the international monetary fund. We were walking past think tanks. So this is a city that is just full of people who have high education, money, taste, and so on, which you would expect to be a city that therefore would offer, you know, good food and wine. This is what I thought was important. Independent wine lists. That's what I noticed was missing. So we were in, very nice, you know, hotel. Well, say where, but we were in a very fabulous hotel. And the wine list, we didn't have hospitality service that could describe what we were having on the list. They couldn't help us make, decisions around it. And even what was on the list was really representative of what we consider industrial wine. And, and I think the reason for me as a marketer that this was really important is that we hear, we read everything about the reduced, you know, alcohol consumption in the US, not enough young people picking up alcohol, more and more, people moving toward natural wine, And when I was sitting there, and I'm thinking, well, if your only day to day experience with wine is one of these industrial just like they don't even taste like wine, no wonder you're going to a different product. First night in my hotel, which again was in that kind of good area of Washington. I was a very expensive hotel. I went downstairs, and I was, I was too tired to go outside. I ordered a hotel dinner, which is salmon steak, and then I ordered a glass of Shardonnay. And she couldn't the waitress couldn't tell me what the chardonnay was or where it was from, but I thought, okay. So and it was I've tasted wine like that before because every year I go to the bulk wine fair in Amsterdam. And this was bulk wine. It was wine that If it if it costs two euros a liter, I would be really surprised and yet it was sold to me at fifteen dollars a glass. And then I said to her, well, what's the rose? And she said, it's a pink wine. And I was like, well, okay. Where's it from? And she said it's from France. At which point, I thought, oh, okay. No. Thanks. So the next night, I said, I'll have a gin and tonic. I was done in the bar writing an article. And she said, okay. Do you want bombay sapphire tanker airdo and Hendrix. I mean, she knew all of the gyms, and they're all commercial gyms, but she knew what they were, but she had no idea how to describe these wines that she was serving. And they were fifteen dollars a glass. And the whole you know, palette probably wasn't worth fifteen dollars. So that to me wasn't somebody, somebody at head office who was thinking about how to surprise or delight customers, whatever. That was somebody who was thinking, how can we stretch the maximum amount of money for the minimum amount of effort, really cynical wine buying. And and if that's what if that's what people are exposed to at a top hotel, like, yeah, exactly. No wonder. No wonder when the first time they try natural wine, they go, wow. This is got some flatter. Well, and also the person who's serving a natural wine has we know by virtue of serving a natural wine has put more thought, more effort. There's an independent list. You know, we don't have bulk natural wines that are ending up on on hotel list. And and, actually, it's interesting. So I don't wanna mention the name of it, but we also, because we didn't just stay in the hotel, we did go out to one of the top ranked, top ranked, excuse me, champagne bars in Georgetown. Yeah. Georgetown. And, what so again, for me, this was putting a lot of what I'm hearing coming out of America, coming from my clients into subjective. So things like you saying that it wasn't clean. Well, we've all heard or about the issues of labor in America. We all know someone in the wine industry who's having a hard time getting tasting room staff. Like, so, okay, realizing the tangible impact of labor is maybe we've got these huge restaurants to size wise that require a lot of labor and industry, and we can't actually fill it. In the case of the particular wine bar, what completely floored me is here we are in Europe talking about the language of Sommelier, you know, certifications, non certification, wine education, who's this for, we've got a very, very deep list and nobody on staff is able to speak to that list, you know, from the first thing that you see on it straight through. Why why do you have these things on the list? What is it? Or I'm looking for something of this kind of flavor profile So, again, it it just comes back to, I think, for me, a really, a a clear understanding, a more clear understanding of a lot of what we're hearing coming out of US news. Kind of bringing this all together because everybody sat here and heard us have a a friendly rant on this. From the journalism part of it, where we're sitting in wine right now, you have just today, it's come out that you are the international editor for star wine list, which kind of exactly plays into some of these things that we're talking about. How how do we, on the writing side, how do we actually make certain that we're not only speaking to our bubble? Well, I think the Star wine list is actually, so it's it's based in Sweden, and it's it's kind of, you know, looking at and and ranking restaurants by their wine list rather than simply by their food lists and, and by location. And I think having, having now been in Washington, I think it's an incredibly useful tool. I'm so glad that, I'm associated with it. I I think The thing I took away from the conference is they were talking about big things. They were talking about, you know, political dramas and, and, and whatever. And what they didn't talk about was they didn't talk about the little things like trade reporting and so on. And actually, the more I thought about it, the more I thought they should have because just just getting on and doing the job and reporting on these small things, it's really important to people's daily life. Having a a place where they can go and they can go, I'm going to this city. What's the best to go and they can look it up instantly. That's gonna improve somebody's experience. Having a a trade publication that can report on, you know, glass wine bottle situation and warn you that you need to stock up in advance, that's so useful. But those things are just as important and need to be just as well done as the great big stories. And in terms of the wine drinker, how do we actually get this without immersing ourselves in the wine bubble? Well, actually, immersing ourselves in a wine bubble can do a good thing in one way, which is by having these conversations and having these public conversations, we might shame some of these wine buyers into doing a better job. That's really what needs to happen is that people like us who have a voice in the wine trade need to need to loudly and publicly say whoever's buying wine for these wine lists, you suck. Do a better job. I I don't know what we can do because it you know, it didn't help us. Did it? We we did look at all of the reviews before we went to those places, and we were still close to you. And that's that's the thing that as a wine marketer worries me is that we are part of the wine bubble we tend to know what to look for. We understand that there are certain markers. Like, if you've got a thirty page champagne list, you're probably gonna have somebody there. Right? You're prob who can talk about it. You're probably gonna have some good food, whatever. And realizing that even those of us who live in this bubble can have difficulty. What is a normal everyday drinker supposed to do in order to discover all of the amazing wines that are out there in the world? I mean, for me, it was very enlightening. I think it can't be on so the the problem with putting it on consumers is you don't know what you don't know. Like, if you're a if you're one of those kids at the conference, You don't even know that there's great wine out there that you should be exploring. They didn't even know that it was a topic that you could, you could report it. It has to be there to be discovered. And the only way that we can make that happen is by putting peer pressure on these people to make them better. I mean, I don't know. I'm I'm gonna kinda take a different tack on it, which is we've lost most of our staff writers, staff wine writers for newspapers. You know, it used to be that local newspapers and major publications all had wine included either separately or as part of their wine and food columns. So we don't have a lot of those anymore. Is it that we've got that taken out of the mainstream? And now we're relying on advertising driven food and wine publications, which mean that our small producers can never will never have a voice in those places. Yeah. Well, the the other thing is as soon as you make something into the specialist media, it means that only people who are interested in it will go after it. So you're right. Again, the discoverability has disappeared with the disappearances of columns. So you you can't be just sort of browsing and and trip across wine content any longer. The answer to that is you know, what's really interesting about that is over many years I've heard people say, oh, people aren't interested in reading about wine. That's why those wine columns disappear. That's actually not true. I I started out writing for a pullout supplement of the age newspaper in Melbourne called Epicure. And it was one of the most read parts of the newspaper, you know, people would read it and comment on it. It disappeared not because people didn't read it, but because nobody in the wine trade supported it. Nobody would advertise in it, and so it couldn't pay for itself. And that's why it disappeared. And that's why all these other columns disappeared. It's not that people didn't read them or didn't want them. It's that the wine trade never advertised and part of them, and so they they couldn't pay for themselves. Yeah, but the problem of, you know, the problem of advertising is is absolutely huge. I think a lot of wineries particularly think that they can make up for the loss of print and the loss of wine magazines by, you know, doing their own social media. And it's it's getting increasingly difficult to get organic social media reach. So, I don't know where I'm I don't know quite where I'm going with this, but I think what we're gonna see You know where we're going, we're going back to next year, we're going to the same conference, and we're gonna find the top notch young journalists who've all just turned twenty one. And we're gonna say, come on in. We need you in wine. Come talk about the things that are interesting to you and help us get all the people like you who are drinking something, loving our because that's it. Right? We don't have we don't have them. The fact that we had twenty one year olds who, like, in some cases, these were award winning student journalists who knew nothing about the fact that you can go into. We talked about aviation trade or magazines or wine trade or cars or watches or luxury or all the spaces where we do have niche trade publications, and none of that is represented in that room. So that's my big takeaway is that I was actually in love with the fact that we were in a room full of seven hundred, you know, combined senior journalists and students because it said to me, we need we need them. These are talented, enthusiastic, young people who were so jazzed by the idea that, wow, we could write about wine. Yeah. That's right. So so we need to take them all. We need to give them some wine education. Alright. So with that, we are about to go somewhere, and it's appropriate for me to mention it on this podcast, on Sunday, I think it is. A lot of us head on the local plane trainer automobile, and we head off to wine to wine where the, theme this year is communicate or it's listening. It's listening. I kept listening. It's active listening. So we, we're all going to not be taking photos of the slides and paying good hard attention to that. And you will be speaking there. Yes. I'm gonna be interviewing Aliceiring about her new memoir and about how she escaped a serial killer. Oh, alright. I'm down for that one. And, and will that be your only staged presentation? Your staged moment, I want to For Benning Hopkins and I, also doing a presentation on the state of wine media, and, how to get yourself into the wine media. Awesome. That's that's right. And were you wearing spangles? Not this year. No. I'm getting this thing different. Right. Well, we'll have to see what that is. Folisti, I know that you have a ton on your plate with, with the new work that you're doing, but I thank you so much for your talks. Thank you as always, Polly. And that's a wrap. Thank you for listening, and a great big thank you to my dear friend, Felisti, for joining me today. 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