Ep. 1158 Francesco Minetti | Uncorked

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My name is Holly Hammond, and you are listening to UnCorked, the Italian wine podcast series about all things marketing and communication. Join me each week for candid conversations with experts from within and beyond the wine world. As we explore what it takes to build a profitable business in today's constantly shifting environment. In this episode, we welcome Franchesco Menetti live from wine to wine twenty twenty two. We chat about my favorite topic, profitable digital strategy, as Francesco discusses Wellcom's approach to brand building. We'll discuss the pillars that support good decision making, and he'll share his recommendations for any winery looking to improve your digital presence. If you are interested in digital strategy and design that works, you won't want to miss this episode. Let's get into it. Francesca, welcome. Thank you. I'm I'm so pleased to have you here today. It's, always a pleasure for me to be able to record live because so much of the work that I do with podcast, is virtual and by remote. So for everyone listening, we're sitting here at wine to wine in verona. And you are here as part of the organization and n as the CEO of Welcome. Correct? Correct. Yeah. And that's welcome online dot com. Do I have that right? Yeah. That's right. You can tell me a little bit about welcome. Yeah. Actually, I I like to present the agency same three things. One is that we are specialized in wine communication, and we've been doing so for thirty years. So I'm the second generation. This is quite a problem. I was about to say you're much too young to have done that. Yeah. So this is quite a common story for winery's, for example, not to be the second third fourth generation, not so common for, for agencies, actually. But, yeah, this is our story. Then we have this kind of international approach. So we work mainly with Italian wineries and consortia, and we try to help them, let's say, builder brands abroad in, I would say, seventeen countries, mainly. Wow. Okay. Domain countries for, made Italy export. So, North America, US, and Canada, UK, continental Europe, Scandinavia, and some Asia, Japan and Hong Kong. And how do you do that? So, I mean, communication is such a a broad, opportunity. So how do you guys fit in? What's your niche? Yeah. This leads me to the third point that I was mentioning. We try to, execute to first of all, strategize and then execute the strategies internally. So we have we have twenty three people, and, of course, we built relations in each market But first of all, we'd like to have a comprehensive strategy in terms of differentiating assets of the winery or the consortium we want to represent and the precise names of people and the precise title we want to reach. Right. So one of the things that I really enjoyed hearing, and it has changed over the past two years is that more and more People who are working with our wine brands and with our consortium, are all they were leading with strategy. What's the response that you get on that? Because I noticed that a lot of brands Like, strategy is conflated with tactics and this idea of we need to have the insights. We need to do the research. It can sometimes feel like too big of a process when really what they want They wanna jump into the work. They wanna make the shiny things. Can I can I say something? They they usually want to do, not to think. Exactly. That's perfect. Yeah. Because the perception is that thinking is a waste of time. But, I mean, my my reply to that is that thinking one is for free. Right. Okay. Right? And second, if you don't think and if you don't understand where to go. You don't have, like, a path. You don't have a route. Yeah. And so you're wasting your money. So, basically, to to get you to your point, what do we do? We, we actually structured some visual models based on the idea of ideal and the design thinking. Mhmm. But this is, at the end of the day, to help them understand that, a, you need to have your brand very. So we, structured an infographic called brands anatomy. Mhmm. That goes from the bones from the foundations, your brand pillars, up to your purpose. Then we have a canvas, like business model canvas, but call it content marketing canvas, and we organize interviews, but very concise, very short, but to map Uh-huh. What what is the the status quo of the of the brand? And then we combine the two. So the brand's anatomy and the result of the of the canvas to get a strategy with modules of activities. But, this first thing to me is most important for any kind of activity. I usually say that There's no, I would say necessary activities. Okay. Never. Everyone can choose. If you want, you want to go to eight from a to b, you can have different path. Mhmm. Maybe you enjoy a lot of, going very slow on a panoramic and scenic view or you just want a motorway. It depends on how fast you need to go, what car you have, and where you need to go, for example. No? Well, I think we're gonna come back to what kind of car you have in the context of budget as we keep going. So you work with you work with your clients in developing brand strategy. I love the fact that you're talking about things like business model canvassing because that's something that I think a lot of us use. And then when you put it in front of clients, it can it can be a little bit scary. But then you've actually grown beyond traditional PR. Correct? Yeah. That is true. That's precisely because when you structure a strategy, you realize that, okay. Then, I mean, the magnet at the beginning is, please, I need ninety five plus This is, I would say, the standard request. But not always is the best solution. Right. Also in terms of timing. Of course, it's a desirable outcome for almost everybody. But I'd like to stress the fact that, maybe you are in not in the right market condition to do so. Maybe it's too early. Maybe you don't have the right importer on this butter on in the US market, and we all know how I mean, we all know, maybe some know. Someone know that, it's really important to have order that lobby, the aim magazine. And so maybe it's not the right the right moment to do so. Mhmm. And so we structure another infographics, another visual model, that it's called the brand building. So it's like a building with different kind of, stories. And we do a checkup. And we say, okay. First of all, analysis and strategy, the foundation that we move to the first store, and in the first store, we have text copy. Right? We have visual image. We have pictures. So we have the fundamental building block. And then we get to the, identity documents, so website, company profile for trade, maybe print tools, maybe video, but this is not necessary anymore. That's an an option. And then we move to digital and media. But this is the process. You can invert the the the terms of the of the operation. Right. Yeah. It's really important to follow this. And and one thing that I I am quite curious about working across seventeen countries, when you're building these, you know, these layers, these stories of dependencies, really what has to be done in order to reach your goals. How do you handle the multicultural, the, you know, issues around that? So what we need in America is gonna be very different from what you need in the UK versus Japan. This is a very I mean, it's a fundamental question. We like to talk about, our approach that is identity centered design. The idea is that usually one brands in general are too small to be, like, considered as consumer goods mass market. So somehow, they have to make a choice. And the choice is dependent on their asset, not on the market. Okay. So the idea is that these three pillars that are the foundations of all the strategy. Must be decided dependent on what you have and what you hire and not on what you think that people want in each country because otherwise, it's it's very it's very difficult to get to the right people, and it's also in terms of expectations. It seems that, actually, you can be, like, a consumer guru. You can be mass market, but you don't have the possibility to do so. Also, in terms of volumes. No. You don't have the production. You don't have the money. So the idea is the offer leads, not the demand leads. K? And if you are very clear about your offering, you will find your niche. Or maybe your niche will find you. Right. And, I I do for everyone listening, I do really wanna stress that. This notion of clearly articulating your offering. So it's not your neighbor's offering. Or your grandfather's offering or, you know, an American competitor or UK competitor's offering. Like, it's really about getting to the heart, which I imagine in the, in the analysis and the strategy work that you're doing is like getting to the core of your identity is super important. It's digging, digging, digging. Because at at the end of the day, you know how many one is in Italy right now. Eighty thousand. I know. Eighty thousand. And you owe what they usually say as pillars, three things. Family owned generations, traditional but innovative and sustainable. Okay. This is not differentiating. Yeah. This is in common for all eighty thousand binaries. So the only competitive advantage that you can have For free. At the beginning, it's big. Yeah. I I often laugh and say laugh and say that as a marketer. I think people's perception of what we do is very different from the reality, which is sitting in a room with clients with a thesaurus being like we're gonna get to the exact right word and nobody's leaving the room until we get to the exact right words. So, I'm curious about this. What is when you're working with clients or when potential new clients come to you, what are their expectations and how is it different from the reality? So they come in and they're like, I wanna be a, you know, ninety five and one spectator or I wanna go viral or I wanna You know, I I wanna launch the Google market. So what do they think the process is? And let's just kind of dispel some of that. Yeah. Actually, first of all, it's not so usual. They have a clear objective. Okay. The one thing that we try to help them achieve is your goal. Why are we talking right now? Kind of Yeah. Because usually the idea is, okay, I need I need to communicate? Because, yeah, I wanted to create Brenda Warren. Okay. I'm very against Brent. Why? Why are you against sellers? Because, it's it's like right in the jam? What what what what do you mean with, with, with brand awareness? Where? Who? I mean, are you distributed where? Where's your product? I think that The the the most difficult thing to, to communicate with clients at the beginning, not the pros, but it's the idea that distribution is part of communicate. Mhmm. So, we receive a lot of requests saying, okay. I want just some media coverage. I want to get to the end consumers. I want to get known. I want to increase, our prices. Time. I would say fifty percent of the story is a commercial story and not a communication story. Mhmm. Communication can help, but it's not a substitute for saves. Right. And this is very tough to communicate. So the thing that I found about this, and I'm curious if it applies to the Italian market, because we don't work in the Italian market at all, is First, people think that it's faster, easier, cheaper than it is. And secondly, people, at least I notice within the wine or often within independent business we're really uncomfortable stating our true goals. So we don't wanna come in and say to someone, I wanna make it a ton of money. You know, like, I wanna be the most awarded brand ever. What we wanna say is we wanna be recognized for this. So this this idea of articulating what really matters for some reason is super hard for our industry. Do you find that to be the same in, like, your early discovery work with your clients? Yeah. Definitely. This is one of the challenge, and the other challenge is that they find difficult to agree on these specific pillars because they are afraid that they are losing some potential consumer. Right. Oh, okay. But if if we say so, maybe someone wouldn't like it. Of course. But I mean, you're not a politician. You you don't you don't need to win a majority. I actually wanna dig into some of the website work that you're doing because, of course, I'm a geek, and I love that. Were you were you doing implementation of websites and additional tactics prior to the pandemic, or was this something that really came on board out of necessity? Because mine realized, oh, this whole digital thing at work Actually, we've been doing websites for winery's for the last ten years. We realized more than hundred winery's websites. The thing that happened actually was that During the pandemic, there was a different kind of, requests from the from the client. And at a certain point, they discovered the direct. In Italy was not something really common. Because we have a very, let's say, b to b tradition of farmers and then importer seller. So three tier system, US style. And so all the website were designed four resellers or four importers. They they were targeting this kind of audience. And then, you're in pandemics of say, okay. But now, well, the chance to talk directly to consumers and maybe to sell. There are six consumers. And this actually, opened, some some questions. Let's say, first of all, that, okay, a website is definitely a key, point in, let's say igniting or nurturing this conversation with consumers, but you need to have an organizational structure that is designed to deal with consumers because otherwise If you don't have people that actually know how to manage a e shop, or you don't have the right links between, your inventory and, and your, and your shop, or something like that, or you don't have a CRM, or you don't have a massive mailing. I mean, I look, I'll go forever. I'm nodding. People can't see it, but I'm like, yep. Yep. Yep. I know exactly exactly what you're talking about. And and actually to jump in on that. One of the things that we found the hardest, in kind of March twenty twenty, was realizing that there had been this lack of digital capability, and people were jumping in without exactly what you're describing, good foundational choices. So it if for some people, it became a very expensive experiment because they didn't have the integrations. They didn't have the mailing list. They didn't have wise design and development choices, which I I know is something that that you work on. I actually just wanna say I'm glad you're around because I remember doing due diligence, you know, on on Italian sites for years, and I never understood why Italian websites, they were just terrible for the longest time. When we also had in Italy some of the highest rates of social media use, in Europe, and it just floored me. So our brands, you know, if we go from this tradition of having these very, very old school kind of clunky sides and not really investing a lot in digital, Are they are they adopting it at speed? Are they learning to do it well? Is it becoming a part of culture hiring, you know, resource allocation? Yeah. I think that it's it's slightly changing slowly. But I think that the most difficult thing to to to change is the is the attitude of the sales people. K? So, basically, in Italy, you have sales people that work with importers. Okay. And they don't consider, let's say, I won't say enough profitable because it's definitely profitable, but they cannot get too much volume easily with consumers. And so it's very difficult to make direct to consumer priority. Right. There's a CEO. There is a owner that strongly believes that this is absolutely necessary. No matters how long does it take. K? And it will take long because if you are have not, like, immolated app, database of consumers you need to build from scratch and cost of acquisition is nowadays quite high. Yeah. It can be. Or you don't have your visual assets or you don't have even the basic tech capability. So with this in mind, I'm just thinking about this transition to a much more digital space and the fact that you are second generation running welcome. Are you finding that in Italy, it's much more the next generation who's coming in now, and they're the ones who are champion the change toward toward digital? Yeah. Yeah. I I definitely think so. And I think that, there's, let's say, a must wary use of all the digital tools. Maybe, there's also a little bit of more awareness of, of, what can can be achieved with a good website, with a good use of social media, with a good use of influencer marketing. But I'm not like a champion of digital first always. I think that it must really match the personality and the brand position. Yeah. I I prefer to, to invest on on other channels with, with wineries that are not ready from an organizational standpoint. They don't want to be, so much exposed on on the front stage. And it it, I mean, it it can be completely comprehensible. Because if you do, for example, very luxury product, and you want to be perceived as super exclusive, I won't even suggest you to open your social media account. I know. I would suggest you to disappear. I I actually love that you're saying this because one of the things I've always laughed and said that I'm, like, the worst salesperson for wine websites, because the number of times that I'll go in and just be like, this is not where you need to spend your money. And I think that people, I I think that people who work in digital all the time and work in strategy are the first ones to say Of course, we all love the work. We all love the new clients. We all love, you know, the income from it. But digital is not always the first path or the right path. The the thing that we've noticed, and I'm curious if you've seen this as well, is jump people who want to jump, as we've said, all of these layers of dependencies, and they've not actually grown one market or their domestic market before they're like, right. I'm gonna go into the next one. And then I'm gonna go into the next one. You know, is that is that the kind of thing that you're sort of controlling that enthusiasm to grow too quickly. Yeah. Yeah. I I can I can understand what you what you are saying? And and that's why we we we are very slow in the in the process. I mean, in making understand them the process, and then we are quite fast in executing that. Yes. No. I understand. Getting to the right decisions takes time. And I I think that, at the end of the day, website is your is your digital house. And you cannot avoid it. It's it's one of the probably few things that you can't avoid. Because otherwise, I mean, you don't exist literally Yeah. In the world. But, one thing is having a website. And another thing is deciding how to, let's say how big this this website should be. It's like it's like a house. It's like a house. No? Maybe I just need a couple of rooms. Maybe I need a villa with a swimming pool. But this depends on what do I want do with my house. I want to buy friends. I just need a Peter in a in a in a small, in a new city. It's a great analogy, actually, because you got trade, you got media, you got You know, you, like, your direct to consumer, is it brochure information, like, actually looking at what you're trying to convey and and what audiences you're trying to serve. So, if you had if you had some advice, you know, for brands who are listening, who are maybe maybe they've gone the wrong path or maybe they're ready to upgrade, and they want to do it right. So, obviously, the first one is to call you. But but second to that, you know, if they're trying to make good decisions, moving forward. Could you maybe just give me a handful of what those recommendations would be? Yeah. Of course. First of all, we need to understand that a a website is not something that comes up from nowhere. But is actually, a set of of different building blocks. So first of all, you need to get, like, very, very, well done, your copy. Your copy copy and content comes first. Yes. Sometimes I, I am told, but no one reads anymore. Who who reads? Actually, we read. We have maybe less attention. I can I can say that, but everyone reads and above all, Google reads what what you are writing? So if not any humans, Google read it. So, I mean copy first, copy for everything, and then edit for the website. Then you want to be a brochure. You want to have a brochure. You add it for the brochure, but you have one consistent exhaustive master documents with all the textual storytelling of your brand. First of all, Yeah. Can I jump in on that? Yeah. On the on the copying content? So things that we always say to people, on the the Google Reads. Google understands context. Google understands how much time people spend on-site. So, and, actually, long form content, good creative long form content still works really well. So I love that you mentioned that. But the other thing, from a budget standpoint, It is going to be cheaper and a better, faster outcome if you have your content before you go into a design and development because there's nothing worse than being asked to build for placeholder content you just look at it and you're like, I I can't even make strategic choices around I mean, that's really the nightmare that agencies get presented. So completely have your back on that. People, right, your copy. And do you help them, like, if they need help crafting the copy. Is that something that that you can do? Okay. Great. And we have a team of the writers, specifically In seventeen languages all over the world. We're doing Italian, and then we we have professional translators. Alright. So first you have copy and content. What comes next? Pictures. So one one thing that, that usually happens is, okay, we want to have a website in Tuma. K. You have copy? No. You have pictures? No. Okay. This is not possible in two months. Because I didn't I mean, at the end of the day, a website. Do you have a budget for copying content? No. And so, I mean, a website is actually, a composition of of these two building blocks. So, okay, pictures. And usually, to get a good pictures archive, you need at least one year because you want to cover all the seasonal, aspects of, of your, of your, winery. Yeah. And third, visual. So all the graphic design. So the other thing we ask is, do you have a brand book? No. K. So we need to build a brand book first. So, this is, this is something very important to me to, to make clear data, we need to follow a process. Okay. So we've got what you're what you're talking about is we need tone of voice guidelines. We need brand standards, and we need a visual asset repository. This is this is it. And then you need to have a clearer picture of what you want. It's like it's like a house again. But clients can't do that. I mean, obviously, that's where you have to lay out. This is the architecture. This is how, let's say, it is a process of of getting things done. But the client can be, of course, supported, but needs to know where they wanna go. What happens when you're advising a client? And they could be a great client, and you can love them. But what they're saying to you is, Francesco, I'm hearing you. I don't wanna do what you're telling me to do. You know, because sometimes we can't get that pushback. I don't like the architecture. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to go this route. This is too big. This is too small. How do you advise and and kind of control that? Yeah. The idea is to get together to a solution. So I ask a lot of questions first and not present our ideas, but we get together to an idea. So first of all, k. This is b to b or b to c. First of all, this is very fundamental question. You want to talk to your importers, your agents, or you want to talk to consumers, and you want to sell them, or you want to invite them for touring tastings at your winery. Hey. What what is I mean, what is the main call to action that you want to achieve on your website? You want them to download technical fact sheets, or you want them to buy, a subscription? Continue. Just recommendations. So maybe one more recommendation for someone who's listening that's like, okay, I want to be ready to pick up the phone and call Franchesco and say, I've got what I need. Let's go. I think that we need to understand data, data. A website for wineries is, has some kind of differences with with the other, let's say, industries. Tell me what? Yeah. For example, if we decide to have any commerce, own e commerce, we need to be aware that, we cannot ship all over the world. That we usually have to, let's say, have already a database of existing consumers because this is the best way to get things rolling, then we need to structure business model not only for general sales, but we need to structure a business model for getting these clients be recurrent. So we we can call it wine clubs. I mean, I don't like match the the idea of calling everything wine club because under the term wine club, we can have different business model. We can have subscription. We can have the flash sales. We can have the on premer. We can have events and email marketing combined. We can have a, like, exclusive, location and tasting room, with specific events. So it's It's really about, I mean, in in commercial terms, how about driving lifetime value, loyalty and lifetime value, how do we make certain that they love us and they come back and we're best friends. Yeah. And then another thing that I It's it's peculiar, to me for the for the one industry, is to understand how to, present your, let's say PR effort. Into your website because a lot of wineries invest a lot in PRM. Yeah. But they don't, let's say, I I'd like to to use the term redistribute Mhmm. What they achieve to their audience in their website. So you can have, like, it depends on the visibility you get. If you, for example, are featured in important publications and magazines, you can just have a section in your in your homepage saying we are featured in all the all the kind of, you know, this is very Little gallery. Yeah. Little gallery without without, like, getting to the detail or to the press item in itself, but just mentioning the the magazines or the editorial groups. If you are, for example, very much recognized by the critics and you have great great ratings, you can present the ratings in each product page in a very visual way. If you are very luxury and you have, you want this kind of high positioning, you can have an archive of all the different vintages in your product page. And you can sort all the kind of ratings, all the kind of countries. It's really something that builds your reputation. And actually, it's it's an effective way to, to use your efforts. And to redistribute to your specific audience. This is one of the thing that I feel like is is the difference between professional marketers and, and in people who really are just getting into it. Is this notion that every dime that gets spent has to be able to be used in as many ways as possible. Like, you never develop or or spend money on something that only has one purpose because wine, and I think this is part of of exactly what you're talking about. We don't have the best margins in the world. We don't have huge marketing budgets. I think a lot of working with wine brands is figuring out how to be really creative with what we're doing with not enough people, not enough money. And, really, they don't want they don't want to be marketers. I don't know how to make wine. I don't wanna be a wine maker. You know, so so, I wanna come back to something that you're talking about about how winery websites are are really unique. And and why, certainly, you and I both recommend working with people who work with wine brands is even the things that you're talking about on a product detail page. That's what we're describing. So a single product page, I think and I'm gonna raise our hands for, you know, what we do, awesomely, you and I. I think that these are things that agencies who don't work with wine won't even know to ask about in the specification process because we do have very unique content needs, whether it is, you know, how do we have maps that can work across our sites and show our blocks and our, you know, our hectares and, and, where the production comes from? How do we know that we have to reach out to a particular journalist and say, may I use your reviews on a website? Because different journalists have different rules around, you know, rights and and assets So, yeah, I do think that maybe ever maybe people who sell luxury sneakers are saying the exact same thing, but when you are when you're a part of the niche market, understanding the the details and the intricacies, even understanding the language of compliance, what we're allowed to say, are we allowed to show someone drinking in a photo on a website? You know, that's that's a big deal. Even more than that, are we allowed to mention this specific village? If it's not the name of the population, but name is the name of another population. So it's it's very technical. And this is it's it's about copy. But, to get to your point, I think that one of the most challenging thing is to combine a website that is both b to b and b to c. This is something that, probably only in wine. You have, as a as a very relevant problem because a lot of lot of times clients say, okay. I have a lot of importance distributors, but I all I also want to invest in direct consumer. Mhmm. Mhmm. So the problem of prices channel conflict, pissing off our sales team, making our importers mad. Yeah. Okay. So I I usually tell that this is this is a powerful tool actually to have to to clarify your pricing strategy on your website is really important. Okay? Because you are actually making a statement, and I say, okay. These days, my RSP. Yeah. Clear. K? And then, I need to check on Am I gonna get in trouble for this? Yeah. And on other digital platforms. But if you set RSP, high enough, it's usually good. But then you have this kind of patient. Okay. Now I get into promotion. And so what happens? It happens that maybe my employer say, maybe quarters of, countries that are not so far away from Italy. For example, let's take Swiss. Oh, man. I just, I just met my client. The importer said, that came to your winery and you sold and you sold them the wines at, Oh, twenty percent less. That's my. Right. Okay. So, here, my advice is you can pursue all the strategy you want, and I think the diversification is key right now. The diversification of countries, of segments, of audiences, It does no kind of stigma of of trade, versus on trade. There's no kind of stigma in direct direct to consumer because Italy was, but you need to be you need to use content. And if you do want to have promotions for your consumers, that is great, do it with private newsletter. And not, like, with a pop up. Franchesca, I love talking to you. I think we could keep going, but I know that you have other podcasts and other interviews to do while you're here. So for everyone who wants to find an Italian communications and especially digital partner who knows what you're doing. How do they find you? Our website, that is very minimal, by the way. I was on it, but it's very pretty. Yeah. It's welcome online dot com w e double l com online. So it's a play on words. It's not welcome. And, and then you can contact us directly. And are you on social media? No. I love that. I can't stand social media as an agency. You know why? Because we don't want to steal the stage. Yeah. I think that we need to, stay in the back This is the role of an agency in our consultant. Go and check out welcome with two l's. Welcome online at dot com. Thanks, Francesca. Thank you, Polly. And that's a wrap. Thank you for listening and a great big thank you to Franchesco for joining me today live from wine to wine twenty twenty two. The Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with daily episodes. Tune in each day and discover all our different shows. Be sure to join us next Sunday for another look at the World of wine marketing. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, chi ching.