Ep. 1176 Dave Foss | Uncorked

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My name is Holly Hammond, and you are listening to uncorked, the Italian wine podcast series about all things marketing and communication. Join me each week for candid conversations with experts from within and beyond the wine world. As we explore what it takes to build a profitable business in today's constantly shifting environment. Today, we're joined by Dave Foss, direct from line to line twenty twenty two. Dave has spent nearly thirty years working in hospital. He's a partner at the beloved Lalu wine bar in Brooklyn, and partner at F and B consulting firm Invictus Hospitality. In this episode, we talk about what plays in Peoria, East Coast versus West Coast versus Middle America, And if natural wine is simply experiencing healthy growing pains, let's get into it. Alright. That sounds fun. Dave Fox. I'm super excited to have you here because we're gonna have a little East Coast, West Coast. Wine wrap battle going here. Oh. I'm from Los Angeles. You are from New York? Yes. Maybe we might meet in the middle. Maybe we meet in the middle. Well, there's something else you need to know. I've lived in Los Angeles for four two years. I know it. I know I'm just gonna bring that up. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's we're just gonna go there right now. So you have got twenty plus years that we've got maybe an hour to condense that down to, and we have to be interesting and retaining, you know, at all the same time. I'm the worst person for that. I'm so sorry. They they just can't see how fabulous we look here at wine to wine. So you before we get into the years in LA, quick kick down for everyone's listening. You have flown all the way from New York to verona, to talk to us at wine to wine. What about? So the idea that they brought me out for was to talk about the differences in markets. We we I talked to a lot of winemakers, not just Italian, but all across Europe. And everyone has this idea, and they're so fascinated with New York. It's New York. What's happening in New York, New York. New York. And we need to Can you sing that next time? Next time, I'll sing it for you. Oh, don't get me started. I sing. Oh, like, if you say a word, if you say bye, next thing, you know, I'm singing and saying bye bye bye. It's bad. It's bad. It's awesome. So, That's the next next podcast. I digress. I apologize. But so, you know, everybody has this idea that New York is where it is, and and it is. Like, the trends kinda start there, but they don't always leave. So they may leave and go to other major markets, major urban centers, you know, San Fran, Los Angeles, parts of Florida. Like, wherever there's, like, this young hip crowd, that the scene kind of moves there. But that's, like, the small part of America. Like, people forget America's huge. It's, like, it's three hundred twenty five million people. And, you know, there's been a lot of talk about things like natural wine. And how it's proliferated and it's everywhere. And, you know, it's even in an article recently said, it's even in Topeka, Kansas. It's like, yeah. There is a place in Topeka, Kansas. That you can find natural wine that just focuses on natural wine. But I I dare anybody to find another ten places in the state that focus just on the on natural wine. Like, one place does not make a trend. Yeah. It's a curiosity. In New York, it's a trend. I mean, it's it's the norm, not even a trend. It's the norm. But so We we we're discussing the differences in the markets and what is what is still popular in New York and what is happening in the other areas and all that jazz. Does that make sense? Yeah. It makes sense. And, actually, so, as a marketer, this is something I'm super fascinated to discuss because we have, you know, there's always this generic. Everybody has the same info, top five markets in America. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, What are they doing in the urban metro areas? I get the clients who are working with US as one of their export markets, and it's always I wanna be in New York. It's always. I wanna be in New York. I wanna be in San Francisco. I wanna be in Los Angeles. And and one of the things that you actually realize when you're looking at the data is, you know, Ohio sells a fuck ton of wine, and everybody else is not saying I wanna be in Ohio. I wanna be in Kentucky. You know? I wanna be kind of lexington. Like, you pick, you pick your places, and and look for what are those white spaces? Where is it where all these people are reading about something? But they're like, what what is this natural line thing of which you speak? How do I get this? You know? And and so I think that one of the the questions I'm curious about is how do the trends move if they do. In fact, and is it based on a reality of sourcing it, or is it based on the media stories about to pick up Kansas has, you know, one natural wine bar. People are like, yes, we all need more natural wine. We're kind of picking on natural wine, but but it's not just natural wine. It's really any any wine trend. Any wine trend. We pick on natural wine and and ju just to be fully transparent. I mean, I pretty much exclusively buy natural wine. At at at La Lou. We only buy natural wine. We look for a cleaner style. I I prefer to use the term minimal intervention. Right. I have a friend who used the term lo fi. That I always I like that. I was like, that works well. Gives you a bit of a bit of wiggle room. Yes. You know, not boxing you in quite soon. Yeah. So, and and even when I go out, I I try to source things that are at the very least organic. Doesn't always happen when we when we go to these middle markets. Mhmm. We we try that. But I don't know that the trends always move. There might be a place that picks up on it and does it, based off of what the media is saying, but The majority of people in middle America still don't know what orange point is. The majority of people in middle America still think that, you know, Prosecco is a type of champagne. I mean, like, we we talked about this yesterday was, you know, the the trends don't always translate at all to some of these places. And part of it is that the distribution networks don't get out there, or they don't even try to get out there because they don't believe it will work. I did a job in Springfield, Missouri. And I reached out to a distributor, and I was asking about some wines that were in my opinion, they were very clean, but they were they're considered, like, a cool kid natural wine. Mhmm. But they're very clean. You if you blind tasted them, I would I would garner that almost nobody would be able to tell that they were natural quote unquote. They had a little sulfur. But I reached out to the person who was the distributor there and and he just kinda said, Yeah. Yeah. I have that. Where where is this place? I'm like, it's in Springfield. He goes, dude, you don't wanna do that. Wow. I like, he he actively tried to not sell me this wine. Why? He's like, they're not gonna understand it. They're gonna send it back. And I'm like, dude, this is a clean I know this wine. This wine is not a a faulty wine. This is a very clean wine. This is a great gateway drug into natural wine. And he just he was literally, and I just, like, I wanted to call his his importer and be like, dude, this guy's not doing you any justice. I didn't. But I that's what you're dealing with in these places is that there's a fear that they don't understand. Stand it. I mean, I guess, so do you remember the old El Paso salsa, adds when we were growing up? Which was like, where's this made? New York City, you know, get a rope. Was how that had the whole thing. Yeah. Probably I should not reference that anymore. The world has has moved on long enough. I've up myself in trouble. But but is there, just this antipathy? It it coming from some of these some some of the middle America places where they're like, oh, that's a New York thing. That's, you know, this feeling of We don't want to be that. We don't want their trends. Do we know if there's a desire and it just can't get there? Or if it's importers saying this doesn't make good business sense or if it's the population saying, You know what? We don't have time to learn about your fancy new thing that you I think it's a combination. Okay. I think if you are able to show these wines to the people and educate them in a way that isn't condescending. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a huge thing. And, like, you bring up the New York thing, like, the, like, and I've I've seen that when I'm out. They're like, oh, this is, like, some snobby New York are coming to talk about wine. Some wine expert, quote, unquote, And people still have this notion of the wine person of being this snotty arrogant dude. Well, those do exist? They do. Yeah. On both sides. And it's funny because they actually exist less and natural. Well, actually, Is that I disagree. Okay. Alright. I think there are two camps. I think there are the blue chip snobs and there are the nappy dogmatics Yeah. Yeah. Snobs. And they are the exact same person on different sides of the spectrum. Right. Right. So, you know, the blue chips is like, oh, it's Bordeaux, burgundy. It's only, if you're not drinking DRC, you're you're a barbecue. You're a new buddy. Please be in. And then and I know it's saying there are a lot, but there are the same people that on the natural side as well. I I kinda try to fall into that that middle ground because Well, because ultimately, also, you're a businessman, which, you know, to to kind of digress from the trends part of it and maybe get to those fourteen years that you spent in California, You you have, you have your own restaurant. You have your own wine bar, which is very much on the the natural wine side of things. But you have a consultancy that is, is nationwide. You work with brands all across or or with regions all across the world. Everywhere. We we go and we speak at the restaurant and bar convention in New York or in and Las Vegas. I'm sorry. Every year we go and we speak, and we we get a lot of work out of that, and we end up, you know, getting these jobs, because the people that go to the bar in restaurant convention in Las Vegas are not the people that are opening restaurants in New York, in Miami, in Los Angeles. It's middle America. I can't tell you how many people come up to us. It's like, hey, I've never owned a restaurant. I'm gonna open this place up. We need help, and they come to us. And how do you help them? We do everything. Whatever they need. You need you need us to design your place. Great. We'll do that. Oh, you need you need project management. We'll do that. You want us to build a beverage program? We'll do that. Damn. You could do top to bottom. We need more details. You whatever you want. We have a team of people. We've got a wonderful designer who lives in Costa Rica's named Mark Diaz. He's he's fucking crazy. He's he's a mad man. But he's gifted. He's a pain in the ass. I mean, he's like If he's listening Oh, I'm gonna do this, like, this all. And he gets he gets so fucking, like, like, a mystical. It's like, oh, it's just a feel that I'm like, Mark, shut the fuck up. Can we just, like, can we build a wall here with rope? Yes. Yes. Can we build a wall here? Just come back to the elastics. Right? But, yeah, we do we do everything, like, and so but we'll also come in If, you know, you're you're not doing well and we can help figure out what the issues are, is it a top line pro problem? Is it a bottom line problem? If it's a top line problem, it's a lot more difficult to fix, meaning they're not generating enough revenue. Of course. But we do we do everything. And we get a lot of work and a lot of it is in middle America. Like, like, in in in everywhere, like, we've literally done POCatello Idaho, Havern, population, you know, eight thousand. We've done big hotel jobs. We we run the gamut. Able to talk about it. You know, we hear so much about the ongoing issues in hospitality in America. So from sourcing to labor, to capital, to lending, to, you know, all of this. Are you able to give us a little bit of insight on what you're seeing? And in fact, are these trends that move across borders. So maybe New York has the same set of liabilities that they're dealing with right now, but They're they're different. They're different They're different across the board. It it's it's really kind of it's kind of opposite of what you would you would think. So people are starting to have capital issues now. Mhmm. Oddly enough about a year into the pandemic, There was a flood of money. PPP? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. New investment. Yes. PPP, ERTC. All the all these things. Yes. There was that money, but there was a flood of money. I I can't tell you how many people reached out, especially in middle Americans, especially these other other places about, like, like, once this is done, there's a lot of places. This is fucked up, but, like, there's a lot of places that went out of business. And there are a lot of second gen spaces that are going to be available. So about about a year and a half ago to about a year and a half ago, people started flooding and started flooding money into the south. Wow. But not everybody had the the wherewithal and the understanding to run a restaurant or bar. So a lot of them are having problems now. The other problem, you know, we saw is that people did get a lot of money. And then people, you know, I know in particular in New York, like, everyone was expecting this summer to be slammed. It's gonna be nuts because The roaring twenties is summer summer twenty twenty one was incredibly busy in New York City. Restaurants, even though we were, you know, half capacity or two thirds capacity were doing people were going out. Like, it was a busy New York summer. Normally, New York is not busy in the summer because people couldn't go to Europe. People couldn't travel. And the people that could that did have the money went to the Hamptons. So it was but people were around. And so everybody was, like, dude, this summer, twenty twenty two. Titching. Is gonna be is gonna be killer. And I know a lot of restaurants that you know, they were like, we're gonna expand. We're gonna do this. We're gonna spend more money here. We're gonna because they they had the capital at that time. And they just were like, we're gonna this is gonna be great. And then it was not the summer that anyone expected. Because people could finally leave. Mhmm. People were, like, oh, New York was, like, oh, I can I go to Europe? Great. I mean, I went to I went to Columbia. We went to Cartagena. It was great. I got out of town. You know, people could travel. So people left. It was it was a different experience. Yeah. And so New York has had its own troubles, but we're, like, right now as the city is booming. I wanna kind of go back to your wine bar. Yes. Where do you sort does most of your wine come from American domestic production or is it Oh. Overseas production? It is mostly Europe. Okay. So I would say ninety I would say ninety Ninety, ninety five percent of the list is, europe. Is European. Can you talk a little bit about adoption of local lines versus European wise because what we see in some of the markets is that it's very much this. I want the California wine in California. I want the New York wine in New York, you know, like, or or is, Is it a thing where most of America now or in this case, I should not use that trend language? Is it a thing where you've got twenty two year olds coming in, and they're like, absolutely, I want to try this crazy French wine or this Spanish or, you know, are they interested? Because a lot of what we're hearing is it's really hard to onboard younger audiences to European to younger American audiences to European wine. Outside of New York, it's very difficult. Inside of New York, it's easy. That's what they're coming for. And outside of your New York, meaning middle America? Middle America, Florida, as well as. Mill America, take take I mean, even I know that Miami is becoming, like, a little bit of a natural has has, like, some natural places. Mhmm. But it's not dominating the the Miami wine scene. It's an up and comer. It's definitely trending, but it's not this you know, hasn't taken over like it has in in New York City or Los Angeles. Well, because in LA, for so long in California, there was this notion that it was really hard to actually sell European wines in California because we had such a fabulous native wine production. Right? And so you could sell a bordeaux in New York just because of heritage, whereas you and and proximity, whereas it was much harder to sell the same bordeaux in Los Angeles. You don't find that to be true? For me. It's not hard. I know. That's that's, I guess, so, like, it's it's hard. Talking our bubble. Yeah. So it's, like, that's my my my I have to take about yes. It is difficult for a lot of people to to sell those wines. Not not as much in LA anymore, but at one point, it was very, very difficult. So time in LA, you worked for some of the major restaurant. Groups. Yeah. I mean, I worked for, I was at, Morgan Hotel Group Mhmm. Which was China Grill, which was Asia to Cuba. China grill management. You know, that that's the the classic. I think they the name that they gave it in eater was, you know, the shit show restaurant. Oh my god. Look, it was a party. It was a meeting in Shrager started in Morgan's hotel group. It was a party. And I I also worked with, like, nightlife venues. I was I I'll run night clubs like Hollywood hotspots. We don't talk about this normally. I can't believe I'm talking about this. But we would always try and have you're a little bit younger than me. I would always have, like, you know, we always try to have fun, interesting wines. I knew about natural wine at that time. This is, like, the the mid aughts. So I I did know about natural wine a little bit, but it wasn't on my it wasn't a natural wine guy. I hadn't really known about it. So I was just carrying cool fun wines from Austria, you know, France, obviously, you know, back when a U. E. Store cases and cases and cases of reyes. Dave, it's just taking us thirty minutes to get to the really good part of this discussion. Oh my gosh. The stuff we used to buy that that we used to get so much of. Oh, I wish I could get some of those wines now. No. But here's the thing. I think this is so important, and I just want people to hear it. Okay. So it has actually taken us this long to get to the story. You worked in spaces that were about joy and entertainment. And, you know, and actually, like, fucking loving what we're serving. Like, this is it. So now I think I have a much better understanding of your approach to natural wines and the trends. So If we look at this this notion of, let's just make this a party. Right? Natural wine is so much more of a party than It is. I think and I I don't know for sure, but I think, someone very well known in New York is opening a, a natural wine, basically like a natural wine night club or a party bar. I don't know if I I heard the rumor. And I'm like, yeah, then that that makes sense. Are we allowed to talk about opinions around non natural wine? My my personal beliefs? Yeah. About non natural wine? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Why not? Okay. Because one of the things that that I've said for years is a marketer with natural wine. And I'll be straight up with you. I, you know, some natural wines are awesome. Some natural wines not so good. It's exactly the same with every other kind of wine that gets produced. But natural wine has life. It's gotten good art. It's got good stories. It's got interesting people. Like, it's I I actually look at, and I say natural wine has been so awesome for the wine industry, whether you want to consume it or not because we have this vivacious, you know, characteristics to natural wine, whether it's the pornographic labels or, you know, the but which happened or the, you know, the the Yes. That that right there just sums it all up or or the artistry or the the positioning of it. And so when I look at natural wine and I hear the derision around it, I feel like it's so dreadfully focused on something that is just one tiny portion of wine, which is the liquid that is in the bottle, that it's not the look, we're bringing things that people can talk about and, you know, yes, they can explore it. And yes, maybe every bottle will be different, but for some people, that's actually what they want from wine. It is. It is. Some people want to they wanna they wanna crap shoot in a glass. That's okay. And no. No. There's nothing wrong with dash wines like that. There's nothing wrong with that. I I I always have to remind you know, staff and people that everyone's palette is different. My palette is different from your palette. The things I like right now are gonna be different for you. You may not like them. I love I mean, I might like something this week. And not like it next week. Yeah. I mean, what I drank in two thousand and two is a lot different from what I drank in two thousand ten, which is different from what I drank in two thousand and fourteen. You know, I, I, at one point, I was drinking orange wine, like skin macerated for six months ripped the, you enamel off your teeth, panicked wines in two thousand and four. That's what I was drinking all the time. I don't drink those as much anymore. Right now, I prefer a lighter style of of natural or, of orange wine. Right. I prefer that natural style that's, like, a little more lighter. I like it a little cleaner right now. I still want a natural. I still want the life, but I don't want, like, there are certain things that have turned on me. Like, volatile acidity. Like, I can smell it from twenty feet away. I'm like, there's some VA there. And it's it's probably a little bit too much. I'm not personally gonna like it, but there's gonna be a guest who comes in. It's like, oh, I love I love I love VA. I love it so much. I love it. And I'm like, okay. You know what? I've got something for you. Like, we can't judge. And also, you also can't judge the guy who comes in and is like, I like, I like, I like Bordeaux. I like, you know, Left Bank Bordeaux. What do you normally like? Oh, look, Obrion. That's fine. Well, I the thing that that we've talked about is that what's really and this is just an opinion, but what's really more important is that people identify as wine drinkers. Because if you identify as a wine drinker, you're gonna travel the world identifying as a wine drinker as opposed to a gin drinker, a beer drinker, whatever it is. So you're going to have a more expansive view about, you know, about wine specifically. Going back to this notion of trends, are there things that you feel like the natural wine industry is now, like, really learning from, like, maybe how we communicate, how we market, who we're marketing to that it's no longer It's young people. Now we're doing a better job of talking to, you know, an older audience. I think you are starting to see, people try to to talk to the older audience. And I think it's important that they they start to reach out to that older audience as well. But you're also seeing you gotta remember, this is a new movement. It it's a new movement for a lot of people. Like, a lot of these winemakers are fairly young. Right? So You get these people who maybe they were making wine conventionally, or maybe they just got out of an out of anology school and they started making, you know, natural, sounds of wine. Well, I mean, the first time you did a podcast, how was it? Was it great? It's complete shit. And I did it publicly, and I think that's part of it. I did it publicly. The whole world, saw me learn how to do what I do now. And I I think that interestingly on this topic, this idea that, you know, wine, we don't talk about the things that don't work. As an industry, as as producers in industries, we keep all of our our failures under wraps. Right? Instead of I think that we certainly have a generation coming up in winemakers who are like, okay. I'm gonna try, you know, equivalent of a public build. I'm gonna learn this, and I'm gonna learn it in front of my drinkers. And we're gonna come along this ride together. Because, I mean, I think about, like, I I've I've watched winemakers grow. I have watched them. I I remember tasting, should I say the name of the winery? If you have a nice thing to say about them, say it. Well, I mean, like, Corner listened. I know that, you know, Action Brunson blew blue Corner listened up, but Corner listened You know, those wines when they first came out, but what before they even had vintages and they were just, you know, numbers, they were, I mean, they were, like, they were wild wines. They were vibrant and You know, they were every bottle was different. But you've seen his style kinda grow. He's figured out how to make these wines, like, still have the life that they have, but not as wild, not as They're not every bottle is in a crapshoot. Like, you know you're gonna get something delicious. And, yeah, there might be some variation. Sorry. There might be some variation, but he he's he's grown as a winemaker. Mean, at first finish, he maybe was he wasn't doing it. Ariana Okeypinty. Her wines are beautiful, and they've always been amazing. They've always been amazing. But you've seen her grow, and and, like, her wines have this this fun playfulness when they were you know, her early vintages. And now they're, like, they she's they still have this fun playfulness, but they have this this underlying sophistication and and length and depth. But isn't this really about not thinking of ourselves as a commodity that simply replace full with anything else that sits on the shelf. Like, because in order to have this experience of having your audience grow with you, we have to actually care about them, and they have to care about us. Like, we have to foster Good communication and good relation. You know, when you talk about that connection to these these winemakers that we have, it's because a lot of times they're out there in the space. They're there. Like, you But that doesn't mean tasting rooms funnily enough. It doesn't mean any of the traditional spaces a lot of times in natural mud. Sometimes it does. But I I know a lot of them, they don't have the big fancy You know, tasting rooms, cellar doors, experiences. Yeah. I don't like to go to those places. Personally, I mean, they're I I take that back. I love to stay at those places. And then go visit. But so when you say they're out, you know, they're out there. They're out there. Where so they're in the market. They come to the market and they go to places and they meet people. We, you know, I I love, I think, produce what we call producer night. Right now is Tap takeovers is what we call it. Tap takeovers. So, I mean, right now in New York, this particular week that I'm here Mhmm. Is you had character, natural wine fair on Saturday. Then you had orange wine day or orange wine, whatever. Not another, like, not a conference, but another tasting. This week, you have raw wine, and you have peripheral and wild world. There's a ton of them. Right? But these are the most exciting times to be in New York because those producers are going out every night, and they're going to restaurants. And you're here with us, assuming that it's a trend that we do actually want to grow nationwide. Someone has to be willing to take the risk and say, I believe that my community, my local region, is ready for this. Yeah. I mean, so you you are you talking about the idea of, like, we're gonna do a raw wine in Houston? Yeah. So logistically, like, you're now talking about. The only the only issue is is I think that would I think it would. I think it would help. The problem now is is, like, oh, you know, hey, guys. We're we're doing New York. We're doing Montreal. We're gonna go we're we're actually, the way it goes is I think it starts London, Montreal Right. New York Los Angeles. Now we're gonna go to Florida or Miami, and we're gonna do Houston. Now you've got these these winemakers who Let's face it. Most of the guys that are making the wines that are at Raw, they're not, like, rich. Like, when you talk about going to their place, and it's not this beautiful facility, it's it's their house. And they've converted their garage or their old stable into the winery. So, like, you're then talking about them having to spend even more time and more money away. Right. But you're it's a self fulfilling. It's a self fulfilling cycle then. Right? Because If if we know that having them there, having them in the market, this is how we build the interest and the loyalty and the awareness and everything else. But we can't get them into the market. You know, and and from a sheer business standpoint, if if I'm looking at a a business model, well, actually, I do know that a lot of wine sells in Ohio. And the reason that it does is because nobody cares to go and spend time in Ohio. So for me, I'm looking at it and saying, How do we get these people to Ohio? Because someone's buying wine there. I I think that's, to be honest, their distributor. Their distributor or their importer needs to say Hey, man. I know you probably don't think Cincinnati is a super sexy place, and you'd rather hang out in New York or Los Angeles. But those markets are steady, but we're not seeing an uptick in sales. Let's go to Cincinnati. We're gonna hang out for we're gonna you're gonna do tastings and we're gonna do nights. You're gonna come for three days or two days out of your seven day trip to the US. Let's go to Cincinnati and hang out. We're gonna do this. I don't understand. Wow. What do you mean? Trust me. They're gonna love it. Yeah. Because no one else is doing it. Yeah. And you're gonna be the first to market. Now the other question I have though, there was an article fairly recently about you know, how the wine, the wine bars are natural wine is proliferating everywhere, and it's it's not obviously, but I wish it was. But, you know, one of my takeaways was they kinda railed on some you know, about how natural wine has become homogenous and it's all the same and all the and I was like, you gotta be kidding me. Oh, weird. What a weird take But it was it was like, you know, it's the same it's the same natural winemakers that are in every wine bar across the US, which is false. But maybe in the small markets, you do see a lot of the similar the the same players. But maybe that's because the rest don't even get there. Yeah. It's like, maybe they just don't make it there. Like, how many of the this guy's got two hectares. Yeah. You know, how much He can't even service. He can't even service the relationship if yeah. I mean, he's got he's got people in New York, and he, you know, I get a whopping three bottles of it. You know, everybody in New York gets three bottles. So what what are they gonna get? Right. If if ten cases come to the US in eight go to New York and one goes to Los Angeles and one goes to, you know, somewhere else, San Francisco. It's like, well, where is all this other wine coming from? So, you know, it becomes like about the supply. It really does because you have to think about it from that perspective. Yeah. So I know we've be bopped around a lot of my takeaways that I I would just love for you to shoot it down if it's completely wrong is we have a whole, like, ecosystem of issues that come back to this. Why does something happen in New York in Los Angeles? And it may never happen in middle America. And it it has actually so little to do with the naturalness of the natural wine. It has to do with the systems of the natural wine. It has to do with the production. It has to do with the I mean, it has to do with distribution. It has to do with with communications. And to me, this simply sounds simply. I say this sounds just like the the growth arc. This is just part of taking something from what used to be only known to the little wine bubble, and we're just at a stage now where we're starting to see some of the growth problems. And actually, That's not a terrible thing. It's it's not a terrible thing. And, you know, I think you see pockets of it. You know, I I I made the joke about, you know, the curiosity of the one, you know, the natural wine bar in topeka, Kansas. But that's a start. It's absolutely a good start. And and if that one place has it, great. That's a start. It means that that that has made it there and someone's taking the risk. It means that maybe somebody in in Kansas City is gonna do it. Means somebody in Springfield, Missouri is gonna do it. I'm doing a we're doing a project in Indianapolis that we're consulting on, and I couldn't really find much there. Maybe someone will do a natural wine bar there or a natural wine shop or even have a section Even just the section in their place in their in their wine shop that caters to now. These are natural wines. Yeah. I have one staff member who just completely that is their jam, and they wanna make certain that everybody walks in the door. Yeah. Try tries. It it's all a step in the right direction, but to to say it's taken over America. It's not. But but I mean, I and I I want it to I I want there to be more. I want it to be out there. Yeah. I just want something that, like I said, adds a bit of life. Yeah. Dave, I've I've so enjoyed talking with you. Thanks. We'll let this go all around in big circles. But thanks so much. No. This has been great. Thank you for the time and You know, this has been super fun. We're gonna go drink lots of We're gonna go drink some wine now. Oh, yeah. And that's a wrap. 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