Ep. 401 Stephen Brook

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian White Bookast with me, Montewood. My guest today is Stephen Brook. Welcome, Steven. Hello. Steven, you have shared a path to wine, elsewhere. With us, but can you briefly tell our listeners, how you got into wine and what it was that you were doing? Were you a publisher, travel writing, wine writer, whatever? What were you doing? Yeah. I would at that time, we're talking about the early mid eighties. I was doing a lot of work for Magazine, which is mostly a political magazine called the new statesman, and I was doing a lot of book reviewing. And, one day, they asked me to do something online. And then, some months later, they asked me to do something else online. I don't know a great deal about it. But once you've got, a post, which allows you to call yourself a wine writer, you get invited to all the tastings in London. There used to be three or four a day. So, I was a quick study and, you know, love the product. And, after a while, I, moved on to Vogue and had a fairly regular column in Vogue. And I also had a commission for a book on sweet wines called Liquid Gold, which won a prize or two And so, you know, I was often running, but I never intended to be a a wine writer. I was mostly a travel writer. So when it comes to travel, you've written on California wines, and you've judged in California at various wine competitions Are you stood in touch with, friends and producers in the region? Yes. Well, in touch. I was last there two years ago and, in fact, had dinner with, a producer called Cino Ello. And, two days later, the, the building at the winery where we had, dinner together burnt to the ground because of the fires of that, of that time. I haven't been back since But I do stay in touch with the California wines and go to lots of tastings. And on Monday, I tasted over eighty California cabinets, for Decanta, with some colleagues. So, you know, I do try and keep my hand in, but you know, this things change so fast in the wine world. It's very difficult to keep up, and I wish I had the opportunity to get back there more often. And you also just in in parentheses, you're an you're sort of expert in in lots of fields in wine. A real deep knowledge. It's not just that from that kind of formula. So you have a deep interest in Austria and various other areas as well. So in in terms of Italian wine, you've obviously got expertise, in Italy, and you do come to Italy often. Is that still the case? I wish you were. I mean, I used to go just, you know, just even couple of years ago, to Italy about six times a year. Our Judge wine competition is there and, attend events and also go off with my own itinerary to research an article. Of course, that that's now ground to a halt. I mean, I should have been on two or three trips Italy over the spring. They were all canceled for obvious reasons. And I'm dying to get back, but but who knows? It's very difficult to plan ahead. So, I really hope that I'll be able to get back next year, but I doubt there'll be many opportunities before then. What are your what are your favorite regions in terms of not just the wine, but just being there, you know, cuisine landscape. Well, I I love Piamante. The partly for the cuisine, and the magnificent wines, which are getting better from year to year. But I I love most parts of Italy, actually. I mean, Sicily is is fascinating. Usually, I'm there twice a year. I'm I'm not so keen on the varieties, like, premature from the from the south. And maybe I'm more sort of temperate climate. I prefer lines from, like, Campania is not very cool, which, particularly, but of course, there's some wonderful whites there, Tuscany, of course. So I tend to like the simpler wines from from Tuscany, drink happily, a rossa de Montecino where you're based or, just like Caticolasico, rather than some of the ground, more expensive expressions. I I I love the freshness and juiciness of of, good Tuscon SanJurizing. And, of course, wines from, Frule and, you you you name it. There's hardly a corner of Italy where you don't find worthwhile wines. Yeah. I'm absolutely with you with your views on, the brunello versus Roso. I mean, Roso's tremendously undervalued both in terms of, money, but also in terms of just enjoyability and drinkability. When do you when do you see you when do you see yourself next in Italy? Well, I'm hoping to be there for if it takes place, of course, for Nebula prima, which is usually in January. And, of course, there's a fantastic showcase for Barolo Marbaresco and Arrowero. And there's a blind tasting And then the evenings tend to be convivial dinners with producers and older vintages. It it's a great event. I learn a great deal, and it gives me the chance to write up the the wines for, for Decanta. I mean, you're a great expert on boarder as well. I mean, you're a great expert on many things, but Just to what what are the differences in your view, on prima in verse, you know, Bordeaux versus not wearing Italy? What are the differences, as as a journalist as a white for one writer? Well, I don't go to I give it up a lot on prima, my views are well known that it's, it's a bit crazy to assess wines that haven't even have only just gone into barrel over another year to go and it may be fine filtered, reblended, you and then, you know, to give those wines, a score is just daft, but of course, enormous commercial interests writing on that. And, it's, it's a system that works beautifully for the the producers. And for the wine trade in Bordeaux, perhaps not quite so well for the consumers who end up paying just as much on primers. They would be paying a couple of meters later when the wines are actually on the shelves, and they can taste off for themselves. Not sure if we can comparison with with Italy. There wasn't quite the same system. But speaking for myself, I I like to taste either wines that are bottled or wines that just about to be bottled. So the big anti prima tastings, you're not really tasting wines on prima, you're tasting wines that are essentially finished It's mostly in bottle, and that for me is a much better system. Yeah. Here. Here. I totally agree with that. Now you recently tasted and reviewed the wines of, Pio Gessari. Do you see the rise of the Minceione de Gheorghe, Adjunctiva or MGAs? Than single vineyard selections as benefiting consumers, in terms of what they can expect from these specific denominations. Oh, how long have you got it to Monty? No. Basically, I mean, I'm in favor of the system. Wines do have a sense of place. Vignard's a very specific, in Marago and Bauresco. And, if you've got a choice plot in Kanubi or wherever, Brico Ambrojo, then why not, put it on the label? The confusion arises because there are still a fantasy names on the label, I think consumers have difficulty between differentiating between a a fantasy name, which is perfectly legitimate. It's just a brand after all, and, a single vineyard, mention I know there are ways on the label that you should be able to decipher which is which, but for the average consumer, that's, not an easy task. But I think it's a positive trend, but I think people have to bear in mind that although the the language models itself a bit on, on burgundy rather than Bordeaux, the vineyards, and by no means the same, Bordeaux is, sorry, burgundy is essentially one long slope, with the difference of elevation of maybe two hundred meters at the most. In, barolo, Babresco, you've got all these different changes of of elevation and is rapidly changing soil types So you can have a prestigious name on the on the label, and, no, or Avaya, Cerequio, but there can be enormous variations within each vineyard. So I think to, to to say, you know, this is an absolutely top vineyard and X is a rather mediocre vineyard. It can be a bit misleading. So I think he and you also have to take into account the, the skill of the the growers and winemakers. It's a very, very complicated subject, but broadly speaking, I think it's a positive trend to identify, a sense of place or help the consumers identify a sense of place. Yeah. It's also a talking point. Isn't it? It's an argument both the intellectual arguments that journalists have, but also, you know, just friends who aren't in the wine industry, maybe having a dinner together, and bringing two bottles just for fun. And, I think it's a good idea as well that I think, just makes one a little bit more interesting and more and more talking points. Now What has Decantor done in terms of competitions this year? Well, the Decantor World Wine Awards successfully judged seventeen thousand wines, last month, and I was part of the, tasting team. My eye run the Piamonte, panel. And, we had I had no close to five hundred wines. And of course, tremendous precautions were were taken in terms of, not just social distancing, but, no tasters would touch a bottle and no porer would touch our glasses. We put out her own glasses and number them. So it was all, very strictly controlled to make sure that, there was no possibility of infection, and it all worked extremely well. Because the offices were largely empty, there's lots of space. So social distancing was no problem at all. But, I I think it was miraculous actually to be able to taste seventeen thousand wines in the middle of a pandemic. But normally there's a competition that that is over in one week, but this was spread over the best part of four weeks. Yes. For it was five days or something. I think they were very clever in the fact that they let the judges come over a period of a month. I think I'm right in saying to, to, taste at their leisure and and when they when they could safely get to and forgotten wherever they were going to. They're coming from in London. And I I was invited, but I just didn't go, to do my task. Can you this year, because I was I didn't wanna get caught with the quarantining fourteen days. Quarantine day, I exactly understand that. Yeah. We we don't know when you mentioned Boris Johnson on the forecast, but and also didn't trust the prime minister. Well, I think you're right, though. Okay. So next question. At least one educator that of initially international is dying to hear about your cat or cats. And is it true Are they named after wines? Not really. My first cat, at least of modern times, was called Phylloxera. And, she actually had a photograph in, decanter magazine many years ago. We're talking about at least twenty years ago. And one of my present cats, Angelo, my wife decided to name that particular cat, and she claims that he was named after Angelo Gaya. And I did tell Angelo this, and he, had your guy that is, and he wrote with laughter. But I think he got the wrong end of the stick and thought that I just had a a child or a grandchild that had been named Angelo. I didn't dare tell him. It was actually just like a cat, so I kept quiet about that. I've not broken the silence. Of course, he'll never speak to me again, but there we go. Well, we won't we won't, we'll block his, radio. He dropped his account. Yeah. So he's written, on producers off the beaten track. Here in my hometown or not hometown, home region of Tuscany, what are the what are some of the lesser areas of, lesser known areas in Tuscany, originally overall? Well, I went to, Valdano last year, which was new to me. I mean, the wines weren't new to me, but, they weren't called Valdano ten, twenty years ago, and the excellence of states there, you know, he'll he'll borrow and Petrolo, and and the some of those wines are absolutely splendid. Just remind us exactly where that area of Tuscany is? That's a good question. Is is south of Florence, south south east of Florence, if I remember correctly? And the Carvignano, which is just, to the west of Florence, also very interesting area, which I visited in detail about, five or six years ago because of the inclusion of, cabernet sauvignon in the in the blend along with San Juierze and other varieties. And, I haven't tasted them in a in a while, but I used to, adore some of the wines from Malibu, the Aliatico, the sweet red wines, and nobody ever talks about those. You never see them on the shelves at least not in this country, but they they can be delicious. And I think Marabula is, a bit undervalued. I mean, there's a certain rusticity there that you don't get in Chatee Glasgow, and it's not usually. But at their best, I think the wines are terrific and they have great staying power. So I think it's a a reason to keep an eye on. So you are you are a prolific writer. Do you have a current project in the works at the moment? I I do. I do. I'm, being asked to, write a new edition. That'll be the fourth edition of my book, The Complete Bordeaux, just half a million words on on Bordeaux wines. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to to travel to France a moment. So, yeah, the research is somewhat on hold. But I am tasting a a lot of wines, and I hope at least in the spring to be able to get over there safely and get back safely. But I'm I'm very excited about this, possibility because, I'd rather thought that, I wouldn't be writing any more books and Hey presto. Here's an a new commission, and, I'm just gastering to have the opportunity to fulfill it. Why why did you think you wouldn't get any more book commissions? Age, How old are you? Don't mind me asking. No. Not at all. I'm seventy three. So, you don't, you know, you, and you don't back to it either. Well, that's very kind of you, but but I am. I don't feel it either, but, at the same time, you know, that, you know, a younger faces around, and, it's only to be expected that they should be, clamoring for attention and commissions and so on. So, each time I write a book, I I think it's gonna be the last one, but then something else pops up, which I'm delighted about. I mean, your your writing style is very is very, very clear. You're very clear where you stand. You're very clear about when you describe places or or vineyards or people, or even little bits of history that you've grown as well. You're you're you're a very easy reader to like, with somebody who's studying whether it's an MW or a or a BS student or whatever. And that's, one thing that I really like about your your work, on the written page. And as a judge, when I judge with you, you're incredibly consistent and fair. And, and also you you don't get into kind of debate debates would be you just say, well, look, you asked me what I thought. This is what I thought, and and there we go. And I think that's a great way of approaching that kind of thing where people's opinions can get sometimes can get sometimes heated. And I think you're a really fantastic role model for people in the industry on both of those counts. I just have to say that. That's what I think. That's that's a very kind to you, Marcy. Very kind. You've written books on opera. You have a you have a you have a hinterland, which is also quite rare in the wine industry. Just briefly, why why did you how did we get into opera and why do you enjoy it so much? I was taken to the opera by my parents to common garden at the age of eight to see Aida, and I've been going back ever ever since. And I even, picks up my, present wife at the opera, it's common garden. So I have very close ties to to Opera, and I haven't actually written a book about Opera, but I have, compiled an anthology of, operatic, anecdotes and histories. So, I am very fond of it and my wife, and I still go as often as we can. But at the moment, as you know, everything is pretty much shut down. So, again, we're waiting patiently for things to get back to normal but no, I I I've written I I you've you I bet you don't know this, multi I I've written the book on the Salvation Army. I didn't make It's it's a television series. Channel four in this country, which was going to be on the salvation army. And the, the the the producers needed a book and they needed it fast to be written within four weeks. And, so I was I I volunteered to do it. And I actually I ended up with enormous respect for the Salvation army and the people I met there. But, anyway, that's another story. So just explain to people that don't know offshore what is the Salvation army in a nutshell? It's an evangelical, Christian what would you call it? It's it's not it's not actually a church. But it's It's not an army either. So It's certainly not not not an army, but but people do have, they they wear uniforms. This was founded in the late nineteenth century and still going strong. They do a lot of charity work. They are marvelous at helping people who are really at the end of their rope. Their non judgmental, is very impressed by them. And they all live on minimal salaries and with highly a complaint. And, as I say, I have developed a lot of, affection and respect for them. Yeah. It's a good fit for you because their values are very much like your values. Well, I would I wouldn't say that. I certainly don't have a vow of poverty. No. I understand that, but I mean, in terms of, in terms of, you know, just doing what you can and and helping people out when they're when they're having in a little bit of difficulty and, know, you're a great mentor as well to the younger people in the trade. A really, a really great example. And, you lead, for example, both with the quality of your work and how you go about things. So That's right. I know. I've never said this to me before. I'm not not aware of myself as a mentor. I I've, I I can only think of the people I I've looked up to in the past and who I consider my mentors. Oh, it's I've never thought of it the other way around, but as you say, I'm I'm I'm seventy three now. So I suppose I'm I'm getting into that age bracket to be a mentor. It's very exciting. It's okay. Anyway, listen. I want to say thanks to you Stephen Stephenbrook, prolific. Great to interrupt. Run a huge, modesty and also integrity and ridiculous amounts of knowledge. And, it's been a real pleasure to chat to you today, Steven, and I wish you a continued success with whatever it is that comes next on your to do list. Good. I hope I see you in a a tasting room or a wine event before too long. Likewise. Thanks, Steven. Hey. Thanks, Wendy. Bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time.