Ep. 963 Lisa Granik MW | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong. From the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding course? Do you want to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Learn more and apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, work in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and I'm very happy to have Lisa Granick with me on voices today. Lisa is a master of wine, and she lives in New York, and she has had an incredibly impressive academic career as both a student and a professor at top universities in the USA, as well as Moscow State University, the Institute of State and Law in Tbilisi, Georgia, and several others. Happily for the wine world, though, she decided that, quote, a life of vodka, potatoes, and litigation was not going to do it for her, and she pivoted to follow her passion for wine. She became a master of wine in two thousand and six, and she opened her business tasting works in two thousand and ten, where she works in strategic management consultancy for wineries who are keen to establish or improve their penetration in the US market. She is widely recognized as the leading authority on George and Lines, and she's published many books, articles, received numerous awards too many to mention. But one of the things I really wanna talk to Lisa about today is she is currently the co chair of the governance committee and that diversity, inclusion, and transformation committee for the Council of Institute of Master of Y. So, hey, Lisa, thank you for coming on today. Thanks so much for having me. Huge pleasure. I mean, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you are the most passionate scholar. You've earned several degrees in totally lightweight subjects like law and foreign service. So what turned the tide from that career to wine and studying for a master wine, which is no small undertaking as we all know. It's a long story. I'll try to make it super short, but effectively, I looked at I had finished my doctoral dissertation and and was turning it into a book manuscript when I ran into some friends I'd had from my career teaching. And not one of them appeared to be happy. And we got three people in a row, and they actually were often quite angry. And it was a wake up call, and I thought there's my only three friends in in the profession. And I thought if they're not happy, maybe I should reevaluate what I'm thinking about doing. And so, you know, I was lucky at the time I was on a fellowship. And was able to step back. I was still turning the tracker of my dissertation into a book and thought if I were to start all over again, what might it be? And because I, you know, I have that degree in foreign service and saw myself in very much the vein of a citizen of the world, part of being a graduates of Georgetown School of Foreign Service, I tried to think about what career I could pivot to that would encompass many of my other interests and a career that had something that I was already interested in. And, you know, I thought about a number things. But when wine suddenly appeared in my head one day on the subway, I thought, let me think about this from a little further. And, I decided to give it a go. I kept my feet in academia for a while. I was still doing some writing and some part time teaching for about a year, but then because I'm somebody who, you know, I I hadn't officially worked in wine shops and didn't feel comfortable simply asserting myself as an as a self appointed expert. I decided to pursue the MW to give myself a a firmer background in wine and the as well as the critical ability to ask growers and winemakers harder questions rather than just be the recipient of their PR. Yeah. That's that's such an important point. I mean, it's not only a credential that is, you know, universally respected. So it gives you street cred right away, but it it does give you a springboard to to really dig deeper than oftentimes producers wanna go. So I that was a good one. No. No question. I mean, by and large, a lot of wine journalists effectively are just third party endorsers. They're, you know, they're free PR for wineries, and they just regurgitate whatever the wineries tell them without and don't have the ability to cut through some of the things that they're told. And the NW, I mean, certainly there's still a wall sometimes, because nobody knows everything about wind, and different producers have different opinions, and and their those opinions and experiences can be totally valid based on their terroir's, but nevertheless, I have a better ability to critically analyze, what's what's in front of me. Absolutely. I mean, we we're we're not gonna go down the rabbit hole of of wine influencers at the moment, which is I really have a love hate relationship with that tending more towards hate at the moment, but I'm not no no kidding. Anyway. Yeah. But you're so right. I mean, it's it it it's a very interesting perspective having having that ability to to be taken seriously and and knowing your stuff, which really matters, and being able to sort of It it, you know, people people right. It's true. I mean, people think, there there's this wonderful curve that shows that people think they know so much about wine just because they've memorized a bunch of labels or they've been tasting a lot of wines for a year or two, and or they take one wine class, and they think they know everything. And then the more and more you study, the more you realize it's like, all of a sudden, this this graph, like, it goes up, oh, I think I know so much about wine. And then the more you study, it tanks. And and so that even by the time you become an MW, you're like, okay. I know something about wine. I know something about wine, but I feel like there's much more that I don't know than what I know. Yeah. I'm in the tank at the moment. Yeah. I it is one of my favorite things about being in this industry is that as you said, no one can know everything about wine. So there's an endless, you know, licensed study and explore, which is wonderful. Especially because things keep changing too. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let me talk to you about tasting works for a minute. What are the barriers to wineries wanting to enter the US market? How do you strategize with producers and where are most of your clients coming from trying to get into the US? Most of the people I've worked with are family wineries that are based in somewhere in Europe. It could be France, be Italy, and certainly Central Eastern Europe, especially now. One, I mean, there are plenty of barriers. One is simply the the fact that everybody wants to be in the in, in the states. And wine is not sold equally in all of the fifty states. You know, there are plenty of areas of the country where no wine is sold, and people don't understand that. They just look at consumption as increasing without understanding some of the details. And then that's the and concomitant with that is the issue that People, you know, foreigners look at the United States as one market when, in fact, it's fifty markets. And they don't really understand that, you know, arriving and finding an importer in one state does not mean that your wine is going to be sold in any other state. And and and they all think that then they think they're they're going to get with a national importer when they're tiny and they don't meet the requirements that are required by a national importer. So, you know, on the one hand, it is there are so many producers who want to find outlets And there aren't that many importers for them. Or they they they haven't done enough work in understanding the intricacies of the American market. And and then one of the biggest barriers is that they all think They all have the same story. They all, you know, my grandfather made wine or I have a terroir or when, you know, it's it's a very vague concept that doesn't distinguish them from anybody else. They haven't really thought hard enough about their unique selling points. And in the end, then they just become another winery. That's just another winery with nothing to recommend it. And then I think the last thing I'll say is that, you know, all states are, and all importers not being equal in a lot of producers think all they need to do is find an importer, and they find one importer, and then they don't do anything, and they don't understand the degree to which importers, that's they import, and they sell, but they really are looking for partners. And the producer's job doesn't stop. With just producing the wine, rather importers are really looking for partners who are going to come to the market, develop relationships, and actually help the importer and, you know, the ultimate distributor selling the wine. Yeah. And it's it's so complicated the US market, the three tier system, and and all the things you just highlighted. I think these some of these, as you said, smaller winers in central and eastern Europe, yeah, they they they need you to point out where the pitfalls are and how to get across those pitfalls. Yeah. Well, and you even have large wineries that make everyday wines that are, you know, from various places. And they make, you know, perfectly acceptable nine seven eight, you know, dollar liter bottles of wine that they're wine. That's about all you can say to them, and they don't understand that we already have a lot of that. And they have to come up with various concepts to try to present that, even to present that to an importer and find somebody who willing to take it. And this is why wine is so fascinating. It's it's the storytelling and you only get one chance to make a first impression. So That's right. If you get it wrong the first time, there's probably not gonna be a second time. So Correct. Yeah. So tasting works is has definitely got a tan full, I'm sure at the moment, especially with the tariff issues and other things like that. But I I won't Absolutely. I won't go into that at the moment either. We're gonna avoid all these things. Influencers, politics will avoid all. You've also published sort of the book on Georgia wines, and you are, you know, universally seen as the expert on the region. What drew you to Georgia? What's your perception of the wines developing there at the moment? You know, with Georgia being such a key player in the Orange Windfield and having, you know, the most ancient history of wine making, you know, what do you see going on there? Is orange wine gonna continue moving forward? Is quality going to emerge? What's happening on the Georgia wine scene? There there are there are a lot of questions here. You know, I went first, went to Georgia as you had said, you know, I when I when I was a lawyer, and I had met Georgia lawyers and a number of Georgians when I was a lawyer. And so I ended up there during a full break back in the nineties. And number one, it's simply a captivating place. And then and I, you know, ended up going to Russia and deciding to come back to Georgia at the end of that year because it was such a compelling place to be, even though at the the time, the wine there was undrinkable. And because it was Soviet Plunk. But, when once I entered the wine trade, I ended up going back on a USaid program that brought so called experts. And by that time, I was in MW, to look at the Georgia wine industry and to make recommendations on how it could. Basically, kind of a a tasting works job to go and say what, you know, how can we as a country improve, ARWine and improve our exports. And on that trip, then I was because I had this history with Georgia, the Georgia government approached me and said we wanna work with you. And so I worked with the Georgians officially for a number of years, and as I did, the wines were certainly not at not world class levels, but I began to see that the grape varieties were distinctive, the terawatts were distinctive. And if you look around the world, I mean, as a student of wine, every serious wine region has a book. And I I concluded that I was uniquely situated to write that book. The place wasn't ready to do do it at the time, but I can that was starting in about nine, you know, twenty fourteen or fifteen. And so I spent about six years doing research. And in that time, things change dramatically. I mean, I've joked that and I've written in the book that Georgians were working at and the country is changing at warp speed. I mean, they have a history of constantly being invaded, and then they constantly rebuild. And in the twenty first century, these things, you know, like, everything technology things happen much greater speed, and you see that happening even in a, in a, in a subject like wine, where you only have one shot a year to make wine. And if it's not successful, you have to wait another year. But, you know, the the so what drew me there in terms of helping them with the wine scene was that it's a place where I have, you know, fierce, very strong emotional attachment. And I felt again that it was something bigger than myself. It doesn't matter whether I like the wines or not. These wines have these varieties in the wines dial have a history and they have a place at the table, and and it's a very poor country. And I felt as though it was something that I could do to improve the law of Georgia and Georgia wine. It's not a country like Italy in France that has an in has various industries and And and, you know, they and they they do rice and pasta and cheese, etcetera. Georgia has a tiny cheese industry, but wine has a disproportionate, first percentage of their exports, among wine, exporting countries. So the wines when I went there, I told her in the Soviet period, it was planc because it was taken over by mass production. The when when as they started to redevelop the wine industry in the two thousands, they really tried to follow a European mindset, which is that we need to compete with Italian pinot grigio and and and very easy to drink European wines, to be popular. But these wines were I'll just say I I don't wanna say they they were fine. You know, but they didn't have they had as much characters a lot of ordinary Italian. Pina agrees you, and that's not going to cut it in the world market. They need to have their their own USB and their grave varieties have to speak for what they are and the terroir which they come from. And my activities in the past, no worries have been encouraging for, producers to do that to, you know, really look at the, what, to understand their varieties and, and how they perform best in certain, in certain areas. Orange wine, they decided they ultimately, what happened was after developing all this pinot grigio, there were a number of family producers who said, you know, we had make all this wine, but none of it's interesting, and my grandfather's wine was always much more fun. And then the government ends up getting behind the movement of family wineries. And so what really took the took hold in the international market were these small families who they were not professional white makers. I mean, they basically were taking the wine that they had been sharing amongst all of their relatives and putting a label on it and selling it in it's home wine with all of the flaws and problems that home wines around the world always have. And but because of just competition and increased in exchange with Georgia in the world, there are some producers who are not who are not content just to sell their five thousand bottles and do it all over again in the same style. Some of them are trying to become much more professional. They've had, you know, They've now had guests from around the world. They've traveled, and they see what the the world's standards of wine are, and they are trying, and they are trying to improve their quality. They're using sulfur, for example. They're not just going down the natural wine route. I mean, one of when I was in Georgia in December, I went to one I was visiting one of my favorite producers. It was Esvili in in Kahchetti. And he, you know, by his own admission, I'm glad I didn't say his name all that clearly because He's, you know, because he's he says, basically, I'm a peasant. I'm a peasant guy, makes no bones. He's not pretentious at all. He's a sweet, wonderful guy, but a very focused wine maker. And he he had just come back from Bordeaux. And he said, my eyes have been so opened I my life has changed. We we we had eight thousand years of history, but we're five that we're five hundred years behind. I have to rethink every fordo does this to people. I have to rethink everything I'm doing. And so there's no question that this we are on an upswing in high quality home wines in Georgia. But the same token, the larger producers are also understanding that they need to put to find a way to have their wines have more character. And so you see some sort of, you know, there's still divergence but there's some convergence there. In for you know, insofar as orange wine or, you know, the Georgians want to say it's amber wine. Okay? Amber, because remember, first of all, people do think it's made from oranges. It's not. I know. Exactly. Secondly, It's not always orange in color. And then people say, is this really an orange wine when it's not orange? And Amber covers a broader spectrum of colors than orange. And finally, Amber's a pre semi precious stone. So embrace embrace your inner jewel. In any event, it it is a category. It's not necessarily a category that's going to be for everyone. I mean, look, there are a lot of people who don't like white wines or don't wanna drink Rosay for whatever reason. I I'm for one who always wants a great degree of heterogeneity in wine. And now that said, you know, having an orange wine is a different taste experience because people are not used to having tannins in a white wine. And in fact, when you have a white wine with tannin without the coloring matter that makes a red wine red, those tannins actually bind with the coloring matter in a red wine and soften the tannins by the time it hits your saliva. Okay? Without the coloring matter, the tannins are are more aggressive. And so people are some people are if they don't like really tannic wines, they're gonna have a hard time with these. That said, producers are trying to produce more fine grain, more elegant orange wines that will appeal to a wider sector of the population. Yeah. I yeah. That's so true. I'm not I've had people say, you know, in tastings of of wines like this. This is a this is a red wine and a white dress. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. That and it's a difficult concept for people to get their heads around. So it's good to know that there's quality emerging and and keeping that history going. You know, it's eight thousand years of winemaking. I'd I'd like see some good quality coming out too now. So There there are there are plenty of good producers all around the all around the country, and they are there's no question that quality gets better and better every time I go. Yes. Are there still new people trying to figure things out, and they show their wines to me, and they have one flaw after another. But they're very receptive when I say, this is what I see. I can't tell you where it comes from. I can, you know, depending on what we have a conversation. Sometimes there are too many factors to go to say what the real answer is. But sometimes they'll say, yeah. You know, you said this, and you're right. Okay. Next time, I'll try to change. Which is great. I mean, that's that's that's all you can do, be be supportive. Don't shut the door against those flawed home wines and, you know, hope to god that you find find the inner jewel in in one of those small producers who wants to really do things right. So That's right. That's right. And I think, you know, and what some of these small producers, and it's at or some medium sized producers. I mean, what's really exciting is that they're now planting a greater diversity of grape varieties and exploring terroirs that, you know, had been largely ignored in the past, you know, whether fifty odd years. And so there's much more interesting wines to come and they're applying what they've learned moving forward. So I, you know, I think we're really at the beginning rather than, you know, sort of a down you know, or even a plateau. That's so positive. I mean, just for our listeners who don't know, how many grape varietals indigenous are there in Georgia? Well, minimally, there are five hundred and thirty five. There's a book out recently the Georgians claim that there are over six hundred. They haven't done DNA testing on all of them. So it's hard to say whether how some might be related or hype might some might be similar with, you know, different names as happened in Portugal, for example. There are lots of lots of grapes that have multiple names, but we know that there are at least, you know, they're well over five hundred. Now some of those I'll say are simply table grapes, but Georgia, you know, the whole area around Georgia, Armenia, Eastern Turkey, that area of the Trans Caucasus is where Vida's Venefra seems to have started. And there was, you know, intergenerational planting and pollination over the course of time. I actually, as a curiosity, Georgia has a remarkable number of female grape varieties. I mean, most cultivated grape varieties are hermaphroditic, and they they self pollinate. The bees go around, and you can plant them all among them amongst you together. But Georgia has a number of grape varieties that are female, which means that they have to be have two two lines of a two rows of a female variety, and then two rows of something, another hermaphroditic variety. So when the bees go around, they actually pollinate the female varieties. Are you enjoying this podcast? There is so much more high quality wine content available for mama jumbo shrimp. Check out our new wine study maps or books on Italian wine, including Italian wine unplugged, and much much more. Just visit our website, mama jumbo shrimp dot com. Now, back to the show. I think the next time we've got Professor, Aeti, Ocienza, in the house, I'm gonna have to have a chat with him about Jordan wines. He's worked on it. He's worked on it. Yeah. No. I know he has. He he's well, what has he not worked on? The man's incredible. But listen, of of all the many things you do, you know, in a year, one of the most fascinating things for me is your role at the Institute of Masters one. You're, as I said, on the governance committee and the diversity, inclusion, transformation committee. Why are these committees so crucial at the moment? What are you hoping to achieve with your work there? I mean, we know that our industry is behind in addressing issues of diversity. How how is the Institute of Master of Wine looking at this? Well, I mean, this really has more to do with the diversity committee than the governance committee. But as we know, part of the issue has been, and, you know, the MW, I, you know, have to say, is at the pinnacle. And so we are people who have been in the wine industry wine industry for a long time, and it's been a white industry. There's just no two ways about it. Absolutely. And and so you can't just take, you know, somebody from somewhere else in the world and say go into the MW program and be becoming MW in five years when they haven't had the adequate training. So we're trying to find ways number one, to we, you know, we we organize webinars and, try to, you know, and and one of the things we've always done is, we don't pay people. And so we, you know, you kind of, like, everything else, you look around and you, you asked your friends to work with you, and most of us have friends who are at the upper echelons, and that's a white audience. And even if there's geographic diversity, even if there's gender diversity, even if you have some people from India or, you know, Southeast Asia, it it's still a pretty monolithic panel. And so the aim is we've, you know, we've developed a database, and we're trying to do things to ensure that a greater number of we are that so that we are aware of people outside of our own networks. That can contribute to these conversations. Then in terms of our own operations, you know, we are primarily an educational program. And in any school, people hang out with people like themselves, and we've installed a number of different trainings. First, you know, we started with an online training for anybody in the education program so that they're aware of their internal biases. And we're we're going to require henceforth that anybody who is involved in the educational program must take this course in order to participate in the educational program. And then if they don't abide by it, then their expenses are not gonna be reimbursed, or if something goes awry, they're on their own, and they can't rely on the IMW. For, you know, for for any kind of support. They're totally they're totally cut loose to defend it. But, you know, we really wanted to start with, you know, getting ourselves our own house in order. You know, and another thing is, as I said, like, in, in lots of schools, you know, people get together. And, you know, well, because we don't have classes, we have seminars where people get together from all around the world, and the number of people of color are definitely in a minority. And and we wanna make certain that we are welcoming to them. And we're trying to figure out change things in our own heads and our own actions to have a a truly, not to say, oh, yeah, we want more people to apply. But yes, when you apply, we will be supportive of you. We will approach you. We will include you. And and and as well as being supportive. I, you know, I've been I'm trying to mentor a number of other people who aren't yet at MW level, but certainly encouraging them to follow the right path should they choose to become an MW. Those are the, you know, and then the other thing I have to say is that, you know, the IMW is in English, originally an English organization. And, like, as I would argue, like, the alcohol trade worldwide, it is a largely a male driven organization. There's no two ways about it, and and that's a continuing struggle. And I'm trying to keep them to, to account to to ensure that gender bias is a thing of the past. It's so good to know that we've got you on on the committee, fighting that corner. That's it's it is it's interesting. It's very important. I mean, we've seen it go through, you know, the Hollywood and and show business. We're seeing it go through sports, and it's good to know our own industry is going through, you know, what is a painful recognition of, of our faults and our failings. And, I'm very glad to know that you've got a voice in that, and that you're, you know, you've got that corner going. So Thanks a lot. There's there's it's difficult. You know, there's I mean, I'm I shouldn't say it's difficult because it's a lot more difficult for a lot of people other than me. It was kind of an arrogant statement, but there are a lot of people who are ignorant of their own ignorance. And it's really a it's often an incredible challenge. To say to people, okay, you don't, you know, just because you don't see bias, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's very true. Very true. These conversations are are incredibly difficult. They're uncomfortable, but, you know, the more that we have them and the more that we have them with people who have privilege and don't recognize that privilege, I think the the better things are bound to get, or I hope so anyway. So Yeah. I hope so too. I mean, it tends to be transformative and, you know, I I know that I'm, it certainly makes me think twice. I'm guilty of lots of Mala props, and I put my foot in my mouth. And then I realized that I've made, you know, all of a sudden I say, oh my god. I opened my mouth before my brain engaged. And I have to think about things. And and, you know, and it's a journey. And and, and I think but I do think it's where we need to go as an industry, even if, in many areas of the world, you know, there's no question that we're fighting. We're fighting against some serious waves right now. Well, you've you've opened the door beautifully for my next question because, you know, Psalm Journal named you a leading woman and wine a couple of years ago. In your opinion across our industry, you know, what work needs to be done? What advice would you give to young women wanting to enter the wine sector right now? I, you know, I think I mean, it it's great. I, you know, I've been inspired by women younger than me who are unwilling to be cowed and, you know, with a tremendous have shown tremendous courage in speaking getting together and speaking out. I mean, there were, you know, I remember myself. I mean, I could give plenty of instances, but you know, I had some pretty ugly things happen to me and I shut up because I knew I would lose my job. I would not get another job, etcetera, etcetera. And there are ways now. There are people you can speak with, and there are ways to make your voice heard. And I think that women have to make themselves heard. It's for every woman to figure out how to do it. But, you know, the and the the other thing too is that, you know, it's it's not even now I'm just a little late little white lady, but there are ways in which certainly black Americans, particularly the and these are the ones that I see, are out there saying, hey, you know, this is who I am. And I hey, I represent a demographic. I represent a buying demographic that you to whom you can't speak, you need to let me be me, and I and I can sell more product. And, you know, this this opens, like, as I said, I, you know, I don't want there to be one kind of wine. There needs to be more kinds of wine. There are plenty of grapes, grow grown in the world. I want more people to drink different kinds of wine. I don't have to drink what you drink. You don't have to drink what I love. It's their, you know, tastes in many ways are very subjective. And I know that I can't speak to everyone. And I think that that diversity of opinion, diversity of personality is only healthy, long term sustainability, long term health for the wine industry. Yeah. I I so agree. And and I think the, as you said, you know, heterogeneity of wine is crucial, especially when we're talking about, you know, bringing different cultures together pairing wines with, you know, foods that haven't been traditionally paired with wine, you know, Asian food, Indian food, you know, Caribbean, spicy food, things like that. It's it's it's such a big part of of what could make the wine world so much more inclusive that the more wines we have the more likely it is for some newbie to find something they love and and, you know, fall into the industry really happily. So I completely agree with that. But but, you know, but a lot of people get into it. They some people fall into it, but then they think oh, it's for educated people or oh, it's for, you know, elitist. It's this is the other thing. But some people, but, you know, wine needs wine communicators. And and then people do look for people who look like them and look, there are plenty of wineries that don't don't have an outlet to sell their wines And this having more different kinds of people selling different kinds of wines means that producers, both consumers and producers win because there are more wines to be sold and people reaching out to other kinds of people that, you know, that don't necessarily look like you were me. Exactly. Absolutely. And I mean, it's not only it's not only communication in terms of marketing, but it's also communication in terms of educating. And I know that you're a teacher at heart. I am a teacher at heart as well. And you keep your hand in with edge cating, you know, in the wine world at the International Wine Center in New York, where we need to be international is holding our Via course in March. What do you want to give your students as a takeaway from your classes? And I teach young, you know, sort of nineteen, twenty, twenty one year old students on their semesters abroad beyond wine knowledge, what do you want them to take away? How do you see the future of wine education, especially sort of given the fact that we've become really aware that wine languages very exclusive of people and cultures who aren't white, as you said, or Eurocentric or well educated or anglo Saxon. How are you dealing with this in your in your educational life? I always want people to walk away with a sense of wonder of wine that, you know, it, you know, whether it's quote unquote natural, no wine is natural, you know, it's vinegar. But what somehow we take these grapes in a glass and you they go through all sorts of processes, and they turn into something that is influenced by, you know, it's it's mother nature, it's human intervention, and it's and biochemistry. All of these things come together. And it's a wonder that they turn into something that that they can turn into something into something so completely different from what that grape tasted like or similar to what that grape was and and how wine goes from grape to glass. Is is amazing. And I think and I find that some people get bogged down in the weeds of, oh, did you use sulfur? Oh, did you do that? And and while on the one hand, I do think it's very important. To develop your a very clear framework and analytical framework to understand what makes a good wine, a good wine, because there are certain things that are objective, are are objective in thinking. And so it's very important to walk away from a wine education to say this, I can assert that this is I can tell you why this is a very good wine. I don't like it. That's a different matter. It's a very good wine. It's not my style. Conversely, this wine is okay. You know, it might be flawed. It might might not be very complex. It might be whatever it is, but I love it. And to be able to distinguish between an analytical take on a quality assessment of a wine and your own personal preference, That is crucial. And and that that really is, you know, the flip side of, yes. You should think wine is amazing and never lose sight of how wonderful it can be and how the world is always changing. But you need to be able but but if you're going to be a wine educator, if you're going to be serious about wine, then you need to be able to distinguish between, correct analysis of a wine and, you know, and analysis of its objective parts as well as and distinguishing that from your subjective point of view. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's there's nothing to say that personal preference is bad or wrong, but knowing the difference between, you know, actual quality and, and your own personal likes and dislikes is crucial. And that's a great thing to give students. It's such a good tool for, for especially young people or people new to wine in, at any age. It gives them confidence to understand. Yeah. So that's that's that's really great. I think that's a great gift. Now before I let you go, I have got to ask you my famous final question, If you're gonna open a bottle of Italian wine on sort of the average Wednesday, just for yourself, just, you know, no judging, no writing notes, no having to write up an article, what Italian wine would you choose? You know, I'm I'm someone who I'm not gonna say never drink the same thing twice, but and I'm very struck by the moment. But this one, I'm my knee jerk response is always going to be Kianti class ago. And my partly because I've always loved Kianti, and I've seen how Kianzi has evolved, and I always think the wines are so delicious. And I think, unfortunately, people have to have to think that Vurolo is better. I think Sunchavezi is is wonderfully, wonderfully expressive. And to and and actually being in Kianti Glasgow was the moment when I actually decided that I knew that my decision to leave Russian area studies and the law behind and that wine was my way forward. That's fantastic. I love that story. And I, I don't think anybody can diss you for choosing Keonti Classic in Sanjay, certainly not in my office. So, thank you so much, Lisa. It's been a total pleasure talking to you today. I'm really grateful for your time. Thank you again so much. I hope you have a great afternoon. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks a lot. You too. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast brought to you by Vineetlee Academy. Home of the gold standard of Italian wine education. Do you want to be the next ambassador? Apply online at benito international dot com. For courses in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Remember to subscribe and like Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundCloud, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find our entire back catalog of episodes at Italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love, and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italianwine podcast dot com.