Ep. 1015 Helena Nicklin | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Welcome to voices. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and today I'm so excited to welcome Helen and Nicklyn. She hails from the UK and she's an award winning freelance wine and spirits writer, a broadcaster wine consultant drinks influencer and Judge for various international wine and spirits awards. She's the co producer and co presenter of the fabulous the three drinker series on Amazon Prime. And most recently, she penned an article in the daily mail that really grabbed a lot of attention, from women in the wine sector, taking a good hard look at the misogyny that is still blighting our industry. So welcome to the show, Helena. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very happy to be here. Huge pleasure. Well, before we get into sort of the nitty gritty that I'm looking forward to talking with you about, I just wanted to ask you, how did you get into wine? When I know your background was originally studying to be an actress, what happened that took you away from and and helped you get into the wine world. Well, what is the short answer to this question? Well, I was studying languages at university, so I studied French and Italian, and I lived in Rome and I'd always wanted to be an actress, but I was told that it was just not a valid kind of career path. And so I was wondering what to do, but then I met a load of students from Oxford and Cambridge who were putting on a play in Rome. You know, I was studying at the university and they were working as assistance. And to get a long story short, I did a play with them and then realized they were all they were all auditioning for big London drama schools, and so I realized I could do that too. And so I got home and I thought I'm gonna audition for drama school, but I need a job in the meantime. I was quite lucky where I lived. There was a wine shop that was a French and Italian wine shop, and because I'd spent a year in Rome basically having dinner parties, and that's how we learned Italian. I thought that's a good way to do it. I think it technically probably is. It's the only way to do I think. So I went in. I said, I could speak French and Italian. I quite like wine. Can I have a job, please? And that's the that's the short term. Excellent. I love it. I love it. Nothing nothing calculated. Just okay. Here I am. Yes. Yes. And it it worked. And I did both for a while. The manager of the wine shop let me go to auditions and but then eventually I had the Crossroads moment that had to make a choice between acting or wine. A chose wine, but then said that one day I would bring back the performance element to drinks and wine, and that's what I'm doing now. Yes. And we will we will get to that because, I love that aspect of your career, but I just I've always wondered how you got there. So That's it's good to it's good to hear that it was a nice natural choice, not something that, that was forced. Oh, gosh. No. Well, it I mean, your your Amazon Prime series, the three drinkers is absolutely one of my favorite so first of all, I wanna thank you for doing that. It's a great show. Livens up my my evening every time I watch it. Fine. For those of you who don't watch it, you have to catch it. It's a great combo of travel and tasting and content and enter entertainment. What inspired the idea for the show? Well, being an actress and basically a massive show off, I wanted to always wanted to make TV and bring my particular way of explaining why two people, on screen, because I do have quite a different way of educating when I run wine tastings. Basically, it's about, I give personalities to great varieties, and I dress up my dog in silly videos and things. It's quite the idea is that it's it's a reverent and it doesn't take yourself too seriously. I mean, you kind of learn through entertainment, and I wanted to make TV for drinks for such a long time. Pitching it out, nobody would take the idea, wine is too niche. They just kept saying wine and spirits, drinks, it's too niche, which I don't believe at all. I totally disagree with that. Yeah. I know. It's crazy. And so then I thought, well, what if I tried to do it myself? And then I found AD and Colin and Colin had some good contacts. I said, I think I know a way that we can do it. And so we thought right stuff this. Let's try and do it ourselves. If no one's gonna give us a job, we'll make it. That's incredible. And it it really is such a such a great show. And it it's not I wouldn't say you're reverent because so much of of the content is quite, you know, informational. Yeah. We're about to start filming series three, which I can't believe, seeing as we only launched series two, on some Patrick's day in March this year. So it's come around very quickly. Wow. It's amazing. And it and it is such an interesting format and, you know, very interesting for people who aren't really in the wine and spirits business. It's very accessible. There's a lot of sort of, you know, takeaways from it. I I think the show is wonderful, but How do you keep it so lively and fresh through all these seasons? I know you've changed from being the three drinkers to Colin is has exited and now you've got some new friends in there. Yes. Well, every there have been a few changes. Basically, the idea is that every time we do we make it a bit better. We were really feeling our way with Scotch and IE. You can you can see that. It's a bit more like a pilot, the first half of it anyway. So we changed it up in series two by making it more about the country and trying to appeal to a wider audience through travel and food and tourism and then get them interested in drinks that, like, through the back door as it was as it were. You know, so it's a sweet drink as an island as opposed to Irish whiskey, and we cover all drinks, not just the ski in there, and it's a bit more fun just because we're a bit more relaxed. And yes, you're right. There was a big difference, and we we like it because it means that it will always be fresh. And that is the three drinkers concept now, while, while Colin will always be the original third drinker. Three drinkers now is is me and it's AD with a revolving roster of guests, and that could be a different guest or two in every series. And that goes across our our Amazon show, but also our podcast and also on our website with our articles as well. And it it is so much fun, and it's it it does feel very inclusive and diverse, with you all on the road and and doing different things in different places. It's it's a lot of fun. And I think it does play to your acting back around as well. It's a it's a good one to to learn stuff, but to also enjoy. It doesn't feel like a lecturer. Well, thank you for saying that because I I think the second series was quite a bit lighter than the first. You know, we had a a drag queen singing to us while we sat in barrels of seaweed, you know? It is absolutely amazing. I love it. And the Series C will be slightly different again. We've got a slightly different format. And, yeah, it should just be lots of fun, really, education through the fun. Absolutely. And I like things like that where people are entertained, but also get a get a takeaway. That's meaningful. And as you said, gets them into into wine and spirits through the back door, you know, instead of feeling like they're they're in a classroom. So it's it's accomplishing a lot of things, I think. But, you know, we're we're having a good time laughing at the success of this show, but I know your your own wine career hasn't always been quite that easy. The article that I mentioned when we first started talking this morning in the daily mail was just back in March, and it was called why the world of wine is full of chateau bottled sexist, which was a great title. It grabbed grabbed the attention for sure, but the article was serious and ripped back the curtain on sort of this continuing problem of misogyny that women in our wine sector are battling against. And in fact, you know, myself, I don't know any female colleagues who haven't got some sort of tale to tell about harassment and bullying and belittling, and you were incredibly open in your article about your experiences. What inspired you to speak so openly in such a public format? And daily mail has a huge readership. It does. Thank you. I can't take credit for the title. That was definitely a daily mail doing. But, yes, I thought with something like this, you either go big or go home, and it came from the years of everything that I'd endured, but most importantly, what really inspired me just to do something about it was because of a couple of things that have happened in recent years, I seem to have become sort of a mentor to some of these younger up and coming wine writers and influencers who, and a couple of them, had some issues, and they they came to me and they shared some stories. And I thought, okay. Well, I I feel the need to do something about this now. And so I wrote it a lot for them as well because I just felt I had to do something. And so I put the story out there and I was worried that my career would be over. When I saw it the next day, I actually asked to pull it because I just thought I cannot walk into a tasting now. I can't believe that you felt that way about it. It it was, you know, it was quite a barrel article, but, it was so powerful and so well done. My card is breaking that you felt that way when you saw it the next day. I'm very glad I went went ahead with it, to be honest. In fact, I didn't really have a choice. It would all it was already out there online. It turns out. But I am I'm now in hindsight, I am so glad because the amount of emails and messages and tweets, DMs, everything. I still haven't managed to reply to everything. And it's just it's been women sharing stories, and they're all saying the same thing. The more people talk about this, the less it's going to happen. So thank you. And so yeah. I mean, and I just I can't believe what what people have been telling me about things that we've all put up with for years. And it's like, hang on. Oh my god. We have to keep telling this story even if it sounds like it's the same story coming from different places because it's just constantly a reminder. And I think the next step is there's I mean, there, and there is definitely a next step. And next step is talking to the men and trying to empower them to become genuine allies, telling them what that actually means. Exactly. So the men themselves can call it out with other men because it's when a woman is on a press trip and she's the only female I mean, a, that shouldn't be loud. I don't know who is doing these trips these days, but it's still happening. You've got a big group of men who've been in the industry for years who start drinking at six AM, and then they just are horrific. Even if, like, they're they're nice people that you you see at tastings, suddenly there's a group of them and they become a bunch of animals. Yeah. And I and I think, you know, it's that old, you know, I for want of a better word, that old boy school thing of, you know, what goes on the road, stays on the road. And they lose all sense of of boundary and sort of time and place and appropriateness. Absolutely. And they do each other on as well. I'm just I'm glad that a lady who told me about one of her experiences recently had the wherewithalters to write down everything people were saying. Wow. Because they systematically went through just about every woman that has done anything of note. In the wine trade and just rip them to pieces. Wow. That is incredible. Yeah, I'm just I'm I am astounded. Well, I say that, but I'm not really astounded. That's the terrible thing about it. It's Yeah. It's you you wrote in that article that being young and blonde in the wine industry certainly didn't help you. And, you know, we all know how often young women in our industry are just assumed to be the waitress or assumed to be, you know, the the pretty thing to look at in the room or, you know, totally lacking any kind of meaningful knowledge and experience. But I was really struck about what you wrote about men in the industry who you thought were your friends, and then they subsequently attacked you, like, extremely viciously in print and online really simply because you were succeeding. But what happened? Yes. Well, I think there was one main thing that I think you're referring to was, so I think it was at the end end of twenty nineteen in lockdown. Oh, it must have been twenty twenty. Anyway, so a very, very well known person in the wine trade. He's been on TV a lot who's been around for dinner who, you know, I've had my dog sit on his lap. My husband cooked for him. We opened lots of nice wine. I love you known him for years. He started to write a series of missives that, I don't know if you've ever heard of Pop bitch. Yes. But which is where there's sort of a sort of anonymous person takes a pop at some famous people, and it's just a load of bitchiness in the name of entertainment, basically. And everyone's allowed to do it because they don't have to sign it. Well, exactly. And also because these people are really famous, they seem to be untouchable. Anyway, this guy to think it was a good idea to do that for the wine trade, but got it wrong. And while he is an excellent writer, you can't sort of doubt that. And if you weren't and if you didn't know anyone involved, you might even find it quite amusing in places. It was actually full of defamation. I was told by three lawyers we could sue him because because of the nature of my work and what I do, this is just me, and he I mean, he hits so many people, but just because of the things he said, I knew that I wouldn't be able to do certain bits of work because of the friendship network that he had because he's an older middle class male who's been in the trade for years, who knows everybody. I I knew that I'd lost credibility across the board just because of what he wrote. And that's just an outrage. That is just completely an outrage that people like that have power in their pen to take you down just so on on the basis of nothing. Just jealousy. Well, I know. I mean, at least, I I've learned that it is it is about jealousy, but that it didn't help very much at the time because it was so damaging, not just to me, but just everyone else that he that he went for, and he always seemed to go for people who don't have an HR department. You know, and like the more of a competitor you were to him, the more he took you down. And he's a direct competitor to me because he makes TV shows about wine. And so it's in his interest for me to not succeed, which is what was what we're so painful about it as well. Thank you for listening to Italian wine podcast. We know there are many of you listening out there, so we just want to interrupt for a small ask. Italian wine podcast is in the running for an award, the best podcast listening platform through the podcast awards, the people's choice. Lister nominations is from July first to the thirty first, and we would really appreciate your vote. We are hoping our listeners will come through for us. So if you have a second and could do this small thing for us, just head to Italian Wine podcast dot com from July first to the thirty first and click the link. We thank you and back to the show. Absolutely. I mean, you you have said you felt really forced out of the mainstream wine trade because of all of this, you know, terrible inappropriate behavior and and these public attacks by men in our industry. And it is. It happened just last week as well, Cynthia, just last week, but then, no, not with this guy, but with someone else that he knows someone that I've known for years again. It was less about me this time and more about a couple of the of the other the other younger, younger up and coming influences. But it's like, oh, it's always the same thing. It's men not understanding that in this day and age, wine communication is not all about critic scores aimed at decanter readers and above and very, very technical information. It's across the board. It's tapping into people who are just the beginning of their wine journey. And guess what? Instagram is a massive massive tool for that, and women are particularly well suited to it because I I don't know why, but just there are so many more women in wine on Instagram because it works and because we know how to do it well. And men just cannot seem to understand that. And so they're always pitching like the the influencer or the the communicator, the visual communicator against the old stuffy wine critics. When there's room for everyone, it shouldn't be a fight, but it's so divisive. And that's what last week was about once again. And it's so damaging. As you say, I I think there's a certain, you know, a certain group of people in the wine industry, old middle aged men who who don't understand how how marketing has changed, how media has changed, and communication has changed. When you you said that, you know, some of these attacks basically said the only reason you were successful is because you have a pair of breasts. And, you know, we all have had this sort of thing thrown in us. And I think these As you said, young female influencers are getting even more backlash for this because they are successful. And because they they know how to take a good photograph, they know how to frame a bottle of wine and a and a glass full of wine and have everything look right. And it has nothing to do with, with their sexuality or their sexual orientation, but it has to do with the fact that they're young. They know how to work social media, and these older men feel threatened. I don't I don't know why, but it's quite clear that they do. I mean, that is what is coming across absolutely loud and clear. And I think the saddest thing about the most recent case was that the guy who wrote it is the editor of a wine magazine, and he sits on the judging panel for the IWSC, very prestigious wine competition as you'll know. And Of course. The amount of messages I've had about, I am never I I'm not entering that ever because I know that I haven't got a hope in help because I'm a young female. And I'll be and I will have my I will have my application ripped to shreds in public like he did with somebody and then try to pretend it wasn't about her. It that's just heartbreaking that, you know, young talented smart women are being intimidated out of working and wine, which should be, you know, the most inclusive place to work. Wine is for everyone. How how do we combat this? I mean, what what are next steps? You wrote, you know, a very open, honest, and sort of barrel, find your name to it, article. And, of course, those of us in the industry without having to name names, we know who you're talking about when you when you write. It's quite clear. So how do we combat this? What do we do to make this stop? How do we educate these men and how do we protect ourselves? Yeah. It's a very good question. And one thing that I'm asking myself a lot and that and the other other women are that I know. I think one big thing is just to make sure that you've got a support network. I mean, since that article, I was asked to join a WhatsApp group, which has been amazing. It's called wine gurus, and it's a group of women. And what I'm seeing all the time is is anyone else going to this tasting? Who's going who's going here? So people know who's around, and it's, you know, it's not that it's dangerous, obviously, but it's it's much easier to walk into a tasting when there's more than one of you. And so you know, you you feel empowered by more of you being there, of course. Absolutely. It's the old safety and numbers thing. That's there are still certain, tastings and competitions that I feel very, not unsafe, just uncomfortable Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. That's it. And what I've also seen, which has been great, is because we've, a good reason to have this chat, this this WhatsApp group, is that people are throwing ideas around saying, do you know what this this happened at a tasting and it didn't sit well with me? I said this, do you think that's okay? Or or they're in the tasting? And they're like, this is happening? What what what shall I do? And it's just and then you've got this sort of force, this female force at the end of a phone just going like, giving advice and empowering the person at the end of it to actually say something and call people out on it, which I know is really hard if you're the only woman in the room, especially if you are a twenty something woman in a room full of forty, fifty, sixty something. Men. Absolutely. But it I mean, what a great thing to create as you said, instantly accessible think tank to to support women? That's a that's a wonderful idea. I think, especially when it's in real time happening and it can be it's hard enough to call out, you know, at a tasting if you think the wine is off. You know, when you think the behavior is off, it's even worse. Do you what's so conflicting about it, though, is so often that the main perpetrators of all of this when you see them, they are so charming and they're, like, almost coming across it like they're trying to help you. And then when you're not in the room, it's, you know, they they completely take you down. So it's not as simple as them being rude to you sometimes in front of your face, so it's very hard to confront. Do you know what I mean? I I completely do. And it comes in many forms that's either, you know, the the sexual innuendos or the belittling of your knowledge and experience. It it does come in many forms, and it and sometimes you don't see it coming. Absolutely, Drew. And the the belittling of, well, making you think that you being you're being offended is your problem and your fault. I think I think that is you've put your finger on something that is really a problem that's going to make this very difficult to solve because women do guilt extremely well. I think it's it's a default position for a lot of us in a lot of cases. And maybe that was my fault. Maybe I shouldn't have, you know, worn that dress or done that thing or whatever. We have to we have to find a way to train women not to react that way. And as you say, to call out, no, I'm sorry. This is not my fault. This is your bad behavior. That's the trouble, isn't it? I mean, it's, lay being labeled the troublemaker. And, like, the clever men, even if they don't know they're doing it, know how to use guilt as a weapon. Of course. And then that labeling, it does stick And as you say, it can follow you through your career, damage your career because they are, all friendly, you know, across the world, not just in the UK, across the world, they are all friends, and they do all talk. It's very hard to to combat that. I I I know you've got a daughter. I have four daughters. What advice would you give young women wanting to get into the wine business now? You know, in light of all these things, what words of warning and wisdom, you know, what steps to take? How do female veterans stay positive and stay in the business that we love and support new women coming into the business? Very good question. Very good question indeed. I think it's forewarned as forearmed, and it's not just wine, is it? It's it's let's face it's most. I think we're quite far behind a lot of other industries, but, yes, it it's just it's just a warning that this this is a fee for, like, millennia, not quite that long, but wine has been a male dominated space for so many years. We are still at the very start of just having women in it, meaning it's diverse, let alone any other kind of diversity. And so it's just it's bearing that in mind and that they're it's going to take a couple of generations to get it back onto an even keel. And I I think it's just making sure that if you're joining the wine trade as a woman, you're you're seeking out other women who are doing similar things to you and making sure that you have a support network there to bounce ideas off to go to tastings with at the very beginning, you know, while you're while you're learning, you're learning the ropes essentially. That's a really good point. I think that is a great that is a great takeaway to, you know, encourage young women to form a network for a support group, you know, do you have people that you can travel with, attend events with? That's a very that's a very good point. There are lots of them around, you see, and that's it's but it's just finding them and then and being invited into them and just making sure you know who who those people are. But I think once you're in one, your what what I've noticed is you you get invited into lots of other ones as well. There is no shortage of them anymore, which is great. They're just that none of them are as as big as they could be. I mean, one one thing that would be amazing for the wine trade, but it's gonna involve somebody with a lot of time to make it happen. But I guess a woman could do that is building the equivalent of what the advertising interesting have. They have something called the advertising industry has wackled, and that's essentially women in advertising and communications, and it's it's a huge support network and for with very, very senior women, and they have fundraising events, and they give talks, and it is absolutely fantastic. We don't really have a central organization like that in wine anywhere in the world as far as I can see. And I think that would be the next step. I'd happily help someone when I was just gonna say. I think I think we're onto something here. I think I think we need wackled for wine. Yes. Yeah. That's That is great. And I think it needs to be something that's not flying below the radar like WACle is. It has a, you know, it has a big profile. People know about it. And I think, in wine, you know, some of some of the support groups that we build for ourselves or that we find for ourselves in in wine with other women are kind of under the radar because we do feel intimidated. And I think getting getting that out there wackled for wine. I'm gonna get that on a t shirt. We want wackled for wine. Exactly. Back right now. We want it now. What they do so well is they because they they they've been so great. They started by building their female network and and talking to each other, empowering each other, and then They invited in the men, and they have been educating the men, you know, as honorary members. And that all those men now hopefully are true allies, and they go off, and they they hold each other two accounts. And, you know, I'd love the wine trade to get to a place where we can do that. That and I think that's the only way that change will ever really happen is if men begin holding other men accountable for their behavior. That's a that's another exceptionally good point. It is. And I think it's probably as difficult for them to do as for women to call it out in a room full of men who you respect and potentially have control of your career, you don't want to do that. So educating them to do it is is exactly the right idea. Yes. And also, I think if it's just women, we are in danger of becoming as clunky as the men were in the first place. So it has to be inclusive. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we need their support and their insight. I I I always like to hear what my male colleagues say when something like that happens, and some of them are quite insightful indeed, and it would be useful. As you say, just start with the women and then invite the men in. I love that idea. I love that idea. Well, with that, I I will leave you, to get on with your day, and I'm I'm so grateful for you coming on and talking about what is never an easy subject, especially when you've been the victim of it. And I'm so delighted that you got around it and and came up with the three drinkers as a way of sort of being inclusive, bringing yourself back to the forefront, not being shot down by these people, and and being as successful as you are is is a great, role model in and of itself. Thank you very much indeed. I wish you great success with series three looking forward to it. Thank you for your time today, Helen. I really appreciate it. It's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening and remember to tune in next Wednesday. I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya or wherever you get your pods. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. 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