Ep. 1095 Pardon Taguzu | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode has been brought to you by the wine to wine business forum twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth of twenty twenty two in Verona Italy. This year will be an exclusively in person edition. The main theme of the event will be all around wine communication. Tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. Today, I am so happy to welcome Pardon Taguzu to the show. He's one of the four sommeliers from Zimbabwe who were featured in the recent film blind ambition. And it documented their journeys from a pretty terrible, personal refugee ship all the way through to representing their country at the World Blind Tasting Championship. And Pardon was the cofounder of African wines in the Netherlands and Solovino with the Dialba family, and now he focuses his time and attention on his own company, Taguzou Fine Wine imports and exports. And he's also moved into the world of wine making with his own label the Zimbabwe brands. So thank you so much for coming to the show today. I'm really excited to talk to you about everything you've been up to. Welcome to voices. Thank you very much for having me, Cynthia. Oh, it's a huge pleasure. So this is such an amazing story. A lot of our listeners will be, you know, either in the midst of watching blind ambition or getting ready to watch it soon. I I wanna sort of get the backstory out there so that people know what to expect because it's it's a really cool and very inspiring story. So I know you were born in a in a very rural spot in the Hyundai Valley in Zimbabwe's Highlands. And from there, you went on to get a degree in economics in Harare and an MBA. I'm just wondering how on earth did you go from being a business student and a marathon runner, and being interested in sports psychology and finding yourself all the way over here at the high end of the wine world. What happened? Yeah. It's, it has been a long journey. I think, yeah, I think also what, what what was, the main factor is, you know, you you really do not choose your destiny, you know, coming from, from a from a business perspective, from the investors in Bauer. And, going into sports psychology, I never thought that I'll end up being white because, you know, I come from a Christian family, which, you know, the the norm is you, you basically get your your grades. You find a white collar job. And, you know, you, you know, you you start your own family. You are just an straight student, you know. And in my family as well, alcohol smoking is also prohibited as well. I'm trying to listen to to my, only single parent because my my father passed away when I was, very small. And I was, you know, raised by a single parent. So, that was the norm. But, you know, during, during the two thousand six, two thousand six, seven, eight, know, things were not really going well for, for Zimbabwe. And I I witnessed this firsthand as well because, that time I did a small, a small internship with the reserve bank of Zimbabwe, And, this is when the economy was really crumbling, and we had hyperinflation. And at that time as well, you know, the economy was basically living with one dollar per day, which was, so ridiculous. And, yeah, I moved to, I moved to South Africa, you know, just, looking for greener pastures because my sister was already set up in South Africa, and she invited me to go, to South Africa. She's just set me up with, with a job as a runner. Because when I moved to South Africa at that time, you know, it was in April. And, they was, an event which, you know, attracts quite a lot of winemakers from from all over the world and also wine enthusiasts as well. And journalist was called the Olid First of all. And, you know, I just helped as a run at the Royal Hotel in Rubikashville, which is, an hour away from, from CapeTok. You know, I started asking questions from, from this guy. He's like, okay. You guys help. How do you get to know this, this stuff? You know, are you when you're talking about wine that you, you know, you smell all these aromas. It doesn't mean that, you know, when the wine maker is making the wine, he's putting in some of these flavors or what is going on. You know, I was I was that curious to, to actually understand the the subject. I ended up actually, you know, using the internet to finding more information. How can I how can I actually take it upon myself to make it a a profession because it it also had it encompasses everything that I that I'd like, which is traveling food? Yeah. And, I ended up finding, the Capewan Academy, which you know, which is the the the the body that, actually in South Africa, gives one education. And I started enrolling with them, you know, with their introductory course, which, you know, which I aged with the flying colors. And I was more curious. And I went for my certificates. And, when I was doing my certificates, at that time, we had also a tutor who is, the facilitator for WSTT in South Africa. Her name is, Kathy Maston. So when I met with her after the after the lectures, she she actually introduced me to WCT, and she explained to me that, you know, if you want to excel in this field, if you want to, you know, work into do in different countries, WSTT is well recognized, you know, in, in many countries. So it's better if you if you actually consider to to do that as well, side by side with, Kepuaran Academy. So I did, I did the Capequan Academy, I finished my certificate, and then I started enrolling for WST two at this, at the same time. And at that time, I was also moving to my, my diploma as well for kept wine, accredited. So I was doing quite a lot of studying, and but it was a no brainer for me, you know, because my background is basically it's it's basically, you know, it's yeah. I'm a bookworm, you know, when it comes to studying. So Then I did that. I did my double set until to the diploma level and also the the Capwan Academy as well. And, you know, because where I was actually, leaving in, rebekah still with my sister, it was, it's a very small valley, but you know, it houses, some of the great one makers from from South Africa. And you you basically have greatness, thrust upon you, because these these guys, you know, they they make some fantastic inquiries, they they are really well known well known winemakers, you know, the likes of ibn Sadi Adibadenost. You know, these guys are very iconic, well traveled. They made ones in different different regions, you know, Spain, France as well. And, you know, they brought the culture to to Rubica still. So, you know, I'm I did a little bit of work as well in Vivinias with these, with these guys. You know, I just trying to also understand exactly what is the process of, winemaking, what is, you know, what really is the energy that gets into the process. Yeah. And, god promoted to become a waiter, at Roy Royal Hotel. And at that time as well in the valley, Joseph was also working at a different different restaurant. And, you know, we, we did a couple of tastings together. You know, I could just save my gratuity money, which I could get from, from guests and, go to Pick n Pay, buy different kinds of wine and, you know, sit down and try to test and try to identify what what is wine. This is an amazing story. You you just referred to Joseph, who I happen to know is, Joseph Defana, who's another one of your colleagues, who was in blind ambition with you, the documentary. So I wanna take a look at this for a minute just because I think you're kind of letting this go by as this very gentle story when I know it was really a lot harder than that. It's you I've I've heard you say too that when you first met Joseph and you were first getting into wine, at the Royal Hotel. Your first glass of wine was a Shannon Blanc after work one day, and you thought it was horrendous. You thought it tasted sour and terrible and bitter, because your palate wasn't used to it. So There was a lot more to overcome than just studying up here. You had to sort of change your whole outlook. So I think this friendship with Joseph that developed is really interesting to talk about. Yeah. So Joseph was already set up in, in the valley because you came before me and, he was also starting one as well, before me. Joseph was also friends with my with my brother-in-law. So the valley is quite small, so it's it's more everyone who stays in the valley, it's it's more like family. Yeah. And my my first glass, you know, I I still remember it vividly. It, it was a a Shannon Blanc from a, it was Bubolo speaking, Shannon Blanc. Yeah, he gave me one glass. And I drank, I drank you know, my first test was like, okay, this is quite awful. You know, it was very sour. It was too acidic, for me at that time because I didn't understand. I didn't understand the wine, and I didn't understand how to appreciate, you know, the beverage. But you know, nevertheless, you know, I I wanted to finish the glass, and then I went to to a second glass. And then, you know, at the end of the day, we smashed the bottle. And, I could not go to work for for the next coming two days, you know, because I was or sick. My body was not was not used to the beverage. Also later on as well because he was also the first one to move from the valley. And then I also followed as well to to to the city and, you know, we had we had this you know, group of Zimbabweans, we always meet at tastings, and we always taste together, you know, we always share ideas, you know, on food and wine pairings, what we are starting, at that moment, and stuff like that. So it it, yeah, it really helped, to to have someone who we actually knew the path before I actually worked it. It's it's really nice to hear that there's as much of a, you know, sort of a family and a support system in the wine world, you know, in in South Africa as as we tend to find in other places I think the people who are most successful always feel like they have a support group, you know, either their family, their friends, their people they work with and study with. So but it it's interesting because this this idea that you've had never really had wine before, and didn't really like it at the beginning, you know, we we both agree that a lot of wine is about personal experience. And there's a lot of traditional wine language that doesn't really suit a huge segment of new young wine consumers, and people are always referring to, you know, an aroma wheel, which was, you know, invented by, you know, a a white western woman, you know, it doesn't really correspond with an African culture. So how did you kind of how did you decode wine when you hadn't really been exposed to things like gooseberries and all of that stuff and didn't know wine before, so you were studying up. Yeah. Wine is, you know, is is about culture in, you know, it's it's about community. It's it's about, you know, personal experience. And it should be a beverage that it sits comfortable with any culture referring to the aroma wheel, and I think it's a good it's a good starting point, but, it doesn't really correspond, especially with, with all the couches. And not to not to take anything away from it, but I think it's, It's quite shallow. It it, you know, it does not really, you know, suit every, every other culture. And, from from where I was coming from, you know, I was already, you know, reading about wine, have the aroma wheel I tested Shannon Bronx. They, you know, they they talk about aromas that, you know, fruits that I've never encountered in my life. I tested so many were wrong. You know, they they they talk about they talk about gooseberries, you know. And, you know, for for me, it was really hard to to really nail the wine, you know, in a blind testing until I, you know, started to actually read about these fruits and actually relating to the environment I grew up and also the wild fruits from Zimbabwe that I grew up eating that's how I decoded it, you know, set it to actually put my markers and pointers in, in, in different wines, you know, according to what I know, according to the fruits that I know, according to the surroundings, you know, that I've been exposed to, you know, you have a sense of smell that you, that you're born with, that, you know, literally from, from from onset when you start smelling and identifying things when you're young, that actually stays in your it stays in your in your vocabulary and it's it stays in your mind as well, such that you can relate to any other flavor or any other test that you might get later in life. So for me, that that's what I, you know, started using as markers, you know, especially when we were doing blind testings, I could pick up, you know, a very unique plant, which is, we we call it Cine, or it's called in English. It's a it's called Black Jack You know, I I always pick it up in, in sauvignon blanc. I always pick it up as well in com in company franc as well. It really made sense, using my own vocabulary, but also giving reference as well to to the aroma wheel. Which I think still it it it really needs to, to be broad enough to actually get everyone who's in different corners of lives have, had different upbringing on a same, same page. Yeah. I think you're so right. I'm I'm a wine educator too and and a judge in various countries. And I think, you know, people, especially people who are new to the wine world, success only comes when you can really create that personal workable vocabulary system that connects you. And I I think you're absolutely right. The wine industry as a whole, if we want to, you know, put our money where our mouth is and really be inclusive, we need to expand the concept of the aroma wheel, which it's it's a very useful tool, but I think it's time to expand that concept. And so many wine pairings now are, you know, with a French wine, with, you know, fortune, you know, potentially an Asian food, you know, crossing cultures, bringing different wines and different foods together. And that's not possible if we don't have a more global language to talk about wine. So I'm really glad that you you brought that up and you got to your first competition in twenty fifteen. With team South Africa. So tell me a little bit. How did this happen? What what what got you guys up to competition stage and and what created team South Africa? Italian wine podcast, part of the Manojamos shrimp family. You know, we like, like I said, we we always meds at different trade tastings and, you know, you know, by niches and baboons, we're we're competitors. We were quite curious. Yeah. For me, you know, I started going out to to competitions. I did the best young swim win for, South Africa, which, which was in two thousand seventeen, where where I came the first run up. I was also doing, you know, the South African wine test and championship, which, John Frisson, organizes So this, this competition is actually done at a regional level and at a national level amongst ourselves as well. We have also to Nash and Malvern as well that that competed before as well at a at a young challenge, show for Intel hotels as well. So we we had the competing part in our team, you know. And, yeah, for me, I I did I did that. And then I was I also did the the the the South African blind wine testing, championship as well, which for the first time, I think, you know, my vocabulary of wine and identifying wine was not really that great in two thousand fifteen. I think I was in top, I was in top twenty on on on a on a national level. And, you know, what it also helped me when I moved from rebekah still to to Cape Town, I had more access to to more people, and I had more access to trade shows where I could test different wines. And, you know, I could travel to the wine, to the wine lens as well, with more with more ease, the wildlands were, like, close and more accessible to me. So I I developed my my vocabulary. I developed my pilot. And, yeah, two thousand and, two thousand seventeen, we all entered in the South African blind one to and championship. And ours is actually the third, best tester in South Africa at a national level. That time, we also had, in top fifteen, we had, we had Malvin Tanesha and Joseph, So this was actually enough people to create a one solid team. But we didn't know how to how to do it. Of course, we were advised by, by JV that, you know, it's useless for me to take one one participant from your from your team, and then I I I I attacked them with me. So best best you can do is to create your own team Zimbabwe. I mean, all of you were, you know, top top tasters, top sommeliers, that's a super strong team. It was a good idea to put four of you together. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It was. And, you know, and and the competition were the only team that's, you know, the only team that, was actually equipped with some that actually working on the floor. Everyone else, everyone else was in the trades, off trade, doing it for fun. But, you know, these are these were raw seasoned, testers as well. These are the best pilots in the world. So, you know, we we we knew we knew what we were doing, and, you know, we we got there by on marriage, you know, so Well, you your your team was also the only team, composed completely of of black contestants. And that's, you know, this wasn't a hundred years ago. This was just a few years ago. This was twenty seventeen. So it's, you know, it's really disheartening to know that that was still going on in twenty seventeen, but I'm just wondering, you know, on top of the pressure of the competition, to be the only team in, you know, in the room that is all black men, how did that affect the team in terms of pressure. And I know you were a marathon runner, clearly, your marathon wine guy as well. Competition seems like you thrive on it. How did you guys sort of deal with that pressure and and the spotlight of that? Yeah. There was a little bit of pressure there. You know, for for us, we we we took it upon ourselves. Like, guys, we're here. We are here. We deserve to be here. We are the best testers where we're coming from. So if we are the best testers, where we're coming from, we've mastered this one world, we can be the best amongst the best in the world. Of course, you know, you you kind of feel out of place at, you know, at some moment, especially when we got to the the competition and seeing lack of diversity, which it's it's quite disheartening. And, this is not happening only just at a world class level. This is happening, you know, in in different sectors, in different countries. The wine world needs to actually diversify. It has been traditionalized for a long time. Still, you you you see other key players, still trying to traditionalize it and not accepting that, you know, people of color can can also be involved in the wine business. It can also be top some areas in the in the world. So there was that moment when, you know, we show a little bit out of place, but then, you know, when his competition time is said to ourselves, guys, we're here. We are here. We deserve to be at this table. We are some of the best testers in the world, then we show them what we what we are capable of? Well, you you clearly did an incredible job, because it was a very successful year, not just for your team, but also for you personally. You became the second, in the national contents sponsored by Moi and Shandong for best young sommelier, and then you were third best taster in in another blind tasting competition. And, eventually, you became a certified sommelier at the Court of Master Psalms in Europe, not too long ago. I think twenty twenty one was it? Yeah. Train one. Yeah. Well, all of that achievement in the wine world would be, you know, significant for anybody, but to have risen as quickly as you did. To be where you are now is pretty incredible given the challenges that you faced. And Zimbabwe is not a place that grows grapes or makes wine. So, you know, South Africa was the right place for you to to be. But I'm I'm wondering now, you know, what would you say to a young person in Zimbabwe who who wants to get involved in the wine world. What advice would you give? Well, the advice I would give to to someone, wanting to get into wine now. It's not an easy road. You know, if it was easy, there wouldn't have been, you know, the Dan's Washington of this of this world. I would not be where I am if it if it was easy as well because everyone else could, could do it. You know, I I would say, you know, stay stay determined. Always believe in yourself. Always go for them, you know, for the impossible, seemingly. And keep your mind, keep your focus, and, stay stay humble? I I like that. It's and I think it's important to to remember that, yeah, go for the impossible because that's how things that's how things move from impossible to possible. I wanna talk with you a little bit about what you've been doing since all of that excitement because you haven't sat around doing nothing. I happen to know. And you describe yourself as a wine preneur, which I just love that word. You you went from being sommelier in in top Cape Town restaurants, and starting up African wines and starting up Solabino with the Dialba family from from Italy. You know, now you're in the Netherlands. How what happened? Again, this is you seem to be one of these people who, you know, nothing gets in your way, and no challenge is too big. So from Cape Town to the Hague, how did that happen? Yeah. That's that was that was exciting, and, you know, and, like, my my mother used to tell me, like, you know, I just treat everyone that you that you need, like, it's the last time that you see them. I wasn't get tired of working as a song. Right? And then I met these these guests that later became my my business partner, but, you know, I was just being professional, you know, delivering the best service that I that I could, you know, to this family that, you know, that that came to the restaurant, which ended up, falling in love with my service. This was the Diaba family. And, you know, after that, You know, they they we exchange contacts and, they proposed me to actually travel to, to the Netherlands, to see, what what business opportunities we can actually build, together. And I wanted to actually move into distribution, which I I had done my research. I knew that, you know, South African wines can, you know, can thrive a little bit more with, you know, with someone who understands who understands the wine, in in Europe or in in the US. So I didn't have a plan at that time. I was just basically saving up some money and, you know, trying to see what I could actually do next. You know, they they they asked me a question. So what what do you want to do? And I told him that, you know, I would want to move into distribution. I would want to be in a different space, import South African wines, especially wines that are coming from people of color, women in wine, and also the small wineries, you know, that do not have, you know, the CapEx to actually export, export these wines, which, you know, which also hit home, for them, it was a really good concept. And, it didn't attack time. I created the portfolio African wines for, for the Netherlands. And, yeah, we started export in wines, to the Netherlands, you know, with, you know, very small brands. We moved in wine. I imported first in the Netherlands, wines from, Aslina wines, from Anziquiela, who's one of the first people of color wine makers in South Africa. She's an amazing woman. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Really incredible and, you know, incredible story as well. And, I also imported as well, first, the wines of Joseph, which is mostly wines and also to national commercial wines as well in the Netherlands. So that was the jump from Cape Town to to the Netherlands and setting up that, pushing the wines into the market and creating visibility two years, two years down the line. I decided to to go my own way. Still do, input and exports, as well, but, sorry for myself, for a hundred percent African owned company. Which is the first of it. It's kind in, in, in Europe. And, yeah, and I kept on going again. I worked with, you know, all top restaurants in, Netherlands, Michelin Star with, you know, with some of the best chefs in the world. Did consulting creating wine lists for these restaurants as well, doing wine programs, wine trainings as well. And also still selling, selling wines. That's, again, you know, such a huge accomplishment and a big undertaking There's a lot of moving pieces to starting up your own business, especially importing and exporting South African wines, which were completely uncommon in the Netherlands. But I I wanna quote something that you wrote, which I think is really beautiful. You said in a world where our tongues are getting us into deep trouble, and our noses are suffocating from minding other people's business, I found a better use for the two most important organs, and I'm proud to say I owe this access to them, and I'm grateful that they did not need me astray. So I love that confidence. I I think that is awesome. And you have now started your own wine brand, as well as your importing and exporting business, which is super risky. So I just wonder what trophy to make wines and what wines are you making? Hey, you were already importing, exporting, you're already a top sum, and now you're gonna make the darn wine. What was the what was the incentive? As a sum, you have to think outside of the books, you just don't have to think a flow of service, you know, when you when you actually get to that level, you know, that you're not only excited about, you know, about service, but you're excited about actually the experience, you know, that that they finally gave today to the clientele. And also being, you know, a a different judging panels and understanding as well the the different parts that are in different markets as well, you know, the process of creating that you know, that fine beverage was always exciting me. Like, I I really want to be the the guy behind the the label. I need to to be able to communicate my story to inspire someone through this beverage I started contemplating and thinking, okay, you know, I need to start business in wine because I'm kind of like hitting the ceiling now. You know, I've done the floor. I've done the service. You know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm doing the blind tastings at a world, world champion level And I have this experience of judging wines, you know, I understand the beverage. And, you know, it it's now time that I feel the ceiling is coming close to me, but let me move a little bit step further. And create the experience from what I understand and from what I think, you know, people would appreciate listening to my stories and drinking a different wine, which, you know, it's quite crazy, which you know, has been made by, you know, the first black African, in Europe to actually, create such a brand. So, yeah, I'd I then started looking at, who is best to actually to actually work with. I chose Austria, which is one of my favorite wine regions. I just made my maiden vintage, in Vine Vethal, which is above, Vachau and cranes. So this is to the northern part of, of Austria. I made six different wines. I made a gula Veltina, and I also made a lot of oil cleaner, which is also one of my favorite white wine grapes, from, from Austria. But, basically, their grapes are actually a little bit pinkish. So it's it's quite a very interesting, grape, which is found in the northern part of Austria. And I also met as well, at Ruesling, which is my favorite grape from, from from Germany. And I made a warm blend, which I named after my mother, which is, called, Couvert Beti Blong. So Beti was my mother's, my mother's name. And it's a blend of, Corta, Lina, riesling, and also Gruna Verlina, Then I also made, Jose as well. The the Jose is made of, at Target, twenty percent of, Carmen. And then I made, at Target, a hundred percent Target as well. Yeah. You've inspired me. I think I'm lacking an ambition. I've I've been a Psalm and a wine educator and a wine judge, and I am loving being a podcaster and a wine writer. But I think maybe I need to, sit back and and think about whether I should be making my own wine one of these days. Your labels on your bottle are really unique, and they're they're really beautiful. And I'd love to know where the images come from. How I interpret, you know, the wine world, you know, it's it's about culture, it's about the community, you know, it's about people sharing, you know, that fine beverage. The same as that is what trans transcends to my labels as well. The the picture on my label is depicts, Greg Zimbabwe, which is one of the very old traditional monuments from, from Zimbabwe, which was built in the eighteen hundreds This is basically, you know, the these guys, they built these walls just basically by starting stones, on top of the other without any cement or any mortar. And these walls have stood the test of time. They're represented, you know, a community which was under one shift in ship, you know, and it's a community it's a community which, you know, it really gives you the sense of belonging, sense of community, sense of working together, you know, a sense of sharing as well. Which is what I think, is the message that I'm trying to give also to the one world, to people in one, to the one community as well that, you know, one is about culture, one is about sharing, it's about sharing ideas, it's about sharing businesses as well. And it's, you know, it's about the culture that that we create, you know, surrounding, this, this beverage. And, yeah, for me as well, I also wanted with this, with this label for everyone to really feel comfortable when they are holding my, in my bottle. Being curious wanting to know what is the, the story behind It's such a cool label. It works. It's a beautiful image. You're also on the board of BLAC, which is South Africa's Black seller club. And I think this is pretty important work. So I just wanna ask you about you're doing there? What's your role? So Black sell a club is actually, it's actually a club which was performed in twenty sixteen. This is basically a board that represents, you know, the the minority in wine, for scouts for opportunities in education, and, you know, and supports for young, wine enthusiasts, you know, young, black souvenirs in South Africa that really want you to find their way in, in the wine world. Yeah. So I'm actually on the executive board. There. Yeah. That's that's basically what we what we do. We champion on, education and also, representation as well. And when it comes to the online world to black wine somewhere as an upcoming. I think this is one of the most important things that we can do to help our industry heal and grow and be better in the future. I think education is the key. But I just wanna ask you where do you see yourself going in the next couple of years? You've got your import and export business going. Now you've got your wine label going. Are you looking at doing a master of wine? What are you looking at? What are the goals? Yeah. The MS, the MS definitely is, is in the is in the pipeline, but, for now, I'm I'm focusing on creating, the recognizable wine brand, which is which is Zimbabwe, and, would like to create a brand, you know, that people believe in, and that is visible in all the markets. Ma'am, talking about the US, China, in England, you know, every, everywhere. I also would like to keep on pushing you, especially education as well, especially to young, black people that are actually upcoming in their wine industry. And also, you know, just to make sure that they are comfortable as well in, in the international scene as well. That's that's great. I I wish you all the very best for the future and for all your endeavors. I hope I'll be able to try your wine in the very near future. And thank you hugely for giving us your time today and telling us this incredible story of everything you've been up to in your very short time in the world of wine, and your great success. And I'm just delighted for you. And I hope that your future carries on as bright as as these years have been Thank you very much, Cynthia, and thank you very much for having me. And, thank you very much for listening, to all your listeners as well. Huge, huge, huge pleasure. I hope everyone goes out and watches blind ambition right away. So take care of yourself. Good luck with your wines. Thank you for calling. We hope you enjoy today's episode brought to you by the wine to wine business forum. Twenty twenty two. This year, we'll mark the ninth edition of the forum to be held on November seventh and eighth twenty twenty two in verona Italy. Remember tickets are on sale now. So for more information, please visit us at wine to wine dot net. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been due a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing. We would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com.