Ep. 1505 Helen McGinn | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Since twenty seventeen, the Italian One podcast has exploded and expects to hit six million listens by the end of July twenty twenty three. We're celebrating this success by recognizing those who have shared the journey with us and giving them the opportunity to contribute to the on success of the shows. By buying a paper copy of the Italian wine unplugged two point o or making a donation to help the ongoing running costs, members of the international Italian wine community will be given the chance to nominate future guests and even enter a price draw to have lunch with Stevie Kim and Professor Atigioshenza. To find out more, visit us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Welcome to voices. This is me Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so happy to have Helen McGinn, the author of the Nakard Mother's wine guide with me on voices. Helen's a former wine buyer for a supermarket And she became a wine sensation in England ten years ago when she published her book, and she has since become an international wine judge and drinks writer for the daily mail and for waitress supermarket chain, as well as an award winning wine blogger and a regular TV personality. She's been on BBC, Saturday and ITB this morning, and always always lots of fun. So thank you so much, Helen, for coming on this show today. Really appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to talk to you. Well, it's fun for me because, obviously, I'm American, but I haven't lived in the States for thirty two years. And I spent a good sixteen years in the UK. So your your title, the Nackered mother really resonated with me for our listeners who don't know what Nackered means. It's like exhausted worn out completely beyond. And that just appealed to me so much. So it's really fun to have you on. It's it's such a fabulous word, for, you know, overwhelmed all those things that require wine. I would not have survived the years when my children were growing up without wine, so I completely get it. And I've been that knackered mother myself for longer than I care to share. I'm not gonna say on the air. How long? So how did you go from being a wine buyer, fairly serious job, for a supermarket to an award winning and much loved, completely witty and wonderful wine author and personality in the UK? What was your inspiration for the first book, the Nakard Mother's wine guide. So the inspiration for the first book was very much having spent ten years as a supermarket wine buyer. I had basically had this fantastic job where I got to travel the world and work with lots of brilliant, brilliant people, on finding wine, sorting wines to put on the supermarket shelves. And over that time, I had become, I guess, probably, like, the go to for my friends on a Friday afternoon who would all ring or message me in a panic from the wine aisle, usually, you know, on a early on a Friday evening asking me what to buy, what they should buy. Oh, completely. I still have friends who send me photographs of the of the grocery store aisle. Which one? Yeah. Yeah. And do you know what? It was a lot easier to manage before WhatsApp came along. And once WhatsApp came in now, you get pictures, you get voice notes, you get everything. But, basically, I think that's where I came from is I just thought what I want to do is, write have a platform that that people can go to and find whatever wines I'm recommending that week. So it actually started as a blog, and that started about fourteen years ago. And I just decided that I would put up a couple of wines every week, wines that I knew were really good value, especially because, you know, being a supermarket by myself until now. You know, I I firmly believe you don't have to spend a lot of money to find good wines. I mean, obviously, it's a real treat. If you if you do, but, you know, for your kind of everyday wines, there's so much choice out there. It's just knowing where to look. So it started as a blog, and then that blog, it was stumbled across by an editor from a publishing house. And it was interesting because, you know, she was just at the time blogging this was pre Instagram. The blogs, there were a few blogs that were starting to be turned into books. I feel like there's only me and you left in the world who remembers that. Oh, yes. But, you know, I love I still do. I still update my blog because It's just like having your own little, space on the internet that you can do whatever you want with. And I I love the I love the idea of just writing and putting my words down. I love writing about wine. So that's where it started as a blog. And then this editor came across it, and she said, please, can you just turn that this into a wine guide? Because I guess what I've been doing all along is whenever I was recommending wise, I was trying to explain to people. I would always try to to explain to people why they might like this wine. So not just what it tasted like, but what food to have it with, what sort of occasion it would suit, and that I guess that was the idea is I just wanted people to have the confidence to know enough that instead of feeling overwhelmed when they went into a supermarket, they had they they should have had enough knowledge to start navigating their way around it. That that's what I wanted to do with the guide. I love that idea. It's it's such a great thing. I mean, we we've all been there. You walk into a supermarket. There are four thousand bottles wide. Yeah. You know, sort of eight shelves high. Some of them taller than your head. Some of them that you can't can't bend down particularly if you're pregnant or or elderly at the bottom and you think, oh my god. But it's it's interesting that, you know, how open you were to supermarket wine. And I think It doesn't get enough attention. These days, we're we're giving it a little bit more love, and I think we should carry on doing that because the vast majority of people don't go to a very stuffy wine shop to buy their wine. It's an impulse purchase. It's, you know, a Friday night on the way home from work. We've all been faced with those huge shelves. And, having something that can kind of point you in the right direction is super helpful. Yeah. I exactly that. And and I would say that, I mean, I'm lucky enough to have a really lovely, independent wine shop near me, and I love nothing more than going to choose wine in that shop because I am, like, a kid in a sweet shop. And the couple that run it, you know, they they they know the sort of things that I like. And so then you end up having a really lovely conversation around it as well. You don't get any of that in a supermarket. That's the thing. You are basically just left there on your own, staring at all these bottles. But that's the difference. I think knowing that, you know, is a if you have got an independently, you go and support them by all means, but I'm also very aware as a working mother, that it's those one or two bottles that get thrown in the basket or the trolley at the end of the week, and and that's who I'm really writing for, and and hopefully, you know, I mean, it it it is quite amazing that the blog still is going, and the book is still updated and and still in print, which I just absolutely love. I mean, we just update it every couple of years. And I wanted to write the book with longevity as well. So it doesn't have, like, individual wines in there because that you'd have to update it every year. It really is just basically the book that has all the building blocks for you to to to start to understand and trust your own palate and just help you know that if you like say you like these grapes, these five grapes will then hear a ten more to go and try that are not the same, but similar. So you're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna pick something that is so not your taste, but it is diff it's similar but different to the style that you like. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel. Mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. It's so true. I think a lot of wine guides, you know, where we're giving points and ratings and tasting notes and things like that are are not really suited for, you know, the Friday afternoon, you know, after the Jim Connor mother who just needs something in her basket to get her between bath time and and and tea time. I think it's it's lovely that your perception of that, market was so personal and also, you know, not exclusive, you know, not focusing on wines that have been scored or rated, but just really wines that are accessible that are affordable, that are there in in most supermarkets, and that people can look at without feeling, judged or unsure so much of what we do in wine keeps people out. And I think your your approach to a wine guide really opened the door to a significant market. And when we look at it now, you know, these are women who have money. They've got expendable income. They, you know, and there's no more judgment about having that weinette book club kind of thing. So really, really interesting. Can I ask you just quickly, how did you get into wine yourself? So that was a case of, me stumbling into it when I was at university, I joined a wine society with some friends because it was the cheapest way for us to have four half glasses of wine on a first I completely get that. Yep. So that is genuinely the reason why we joined, but what I found was that over time we'd go to these tastings once a month, and they were such good fun. But, also, I very quickly found myself just wanting to know more. I was so struck by the idea that you could take a grape and plant it in different places, and it would turn out you know, so different depending on where it was made and how it was made and who made it. And the other thing that really, really, struck me was that the people who came to talk to us about it, because we would have people down who from, like, wine importers or specialist, people from specialist wine shops, and they were always so in love with what they did. They they just seemed to have this incredible, love for the product, and they got to travel, and they got sometime with really interesting people, and I think that's what I thought. Okay. That's what I want to do. But you can't just well, I tried. You know, I wrote to some some wine companies and asked them, if I could go and talk to them and maybe work for them, but you know, these would these would owe traditional London companies that had, like, one or two buyers and the succession plan meant you'd have to wait about forty years until you might get the shot at it. So And and wear a tie every day. Yeah. Exactly. That it was actually my dad's. He said, well, listen, why don't you apply to a supermarket? You know, get because I was, you know, I was on my way to getting a degree to get on the graduate team, get get the foot in the door, which is what I did. So I got a place, on a on a graduate scheme with Tesco. We're a very big supermarket here in the UK. And when once I was there, I had to do a years training, doing everything but wine, to basically learn how to be a buyer, you know, so you have to learn how to negotiate merchandise and and essentially just learn to think about every single decision you make as a buyer. You have to do it from a customer's point of view. And then once you've done that, then I I went and knocked on the, head of the wine department's door and said I'm still here. And you said if I if I was still here in a year, you'd give me a job. And And I think he was quite surprised to see that I was still there, but he did tutor his words. Give me a go, and I was there for, yeah, ten years. It's amazing. I mean, that's it's a it's a great story of being, you know, kind of ballsy and nervy and and really sticking to your guns and what you love. And I'm I'm so happy that it was your dad who encouraged you to do that. That's that's a really great story. We're we're very kindred spirits. I found wine in university too. And never thought that it could be a career. So, you know, it's it's great that that has changed for young women coming after us. But I I have to ask, you know, when you wrote the book, you know, coming off the back of your blog, and, you know, a publisher reached out to you, you know, when you wrote the Nackered mother's wine guide, and, you know, did you expect it to become successful? It it it was, you know, it was a massive sensation. Well, this, I still honestly now, the book was ten years old, last year, I think, or maybe it was earlier this year. I can't remember. I think it was earlier this year. Ten years old since we published it. And I am still now great, great, great friends with the editor who, we did it with because it was such a fun project, and we've just always carried on since then, you know, meeting up for for cat top over a glass of wine, and the whole experience was so magical. You know, I I'd never written a book. I there certainly wasn't anything around like it at the time, because it was very much geared for, you know, for people like me. For women who love their wine, and, it was just an extraordinary experience. I had no idea. I had no idea that that night that I started this little blog on a whim because basically, I was a bit crazy with three small kids, and I needed to do something other than just be a mom. And that starting that blog, the fact that it would lead to a book, which is then led to television and all the other things I've done. I mean, it really has given me a a whole second career. It's extraordinary. I'm imagining that you've had a lot of personal feedback too. You know, have have women reached out to you people who this resonated with, and and what has that kind of feedback meant to you? Do you know, it means everything. It's everything because funnily enough, as a supermarket buyer, the one thing you do spend a lot of time doing that people probably don't realize were one in spreadsheet for the nightmare. But the other thing No. No fun at all. No fun at all. But the other is, customer focus groups. And so you would spend a lot of time sitting and listening to customers talking about what they why they buy certain wines and what labels they like and all that kind of thing. And I thought given that I'd spent a decade doing that, what amazed me when I started the blog was the fact that the feedback is instant and personal. And so I learned more about what people really want in wine within, you know, six months of doing the blog than I had in ten years of being a supermarket wine buyer was extraordinary because I was having daily and still do. I had daily conversations with readers who are, they will ask me questions about wine or they want to buy wine for special occasion, or they've got stuck in a bit of a wine wrap. So what else should they try? And, honestly, I get so, so much joy out of that. I can't tell you. I absolutely love it. Because the last thing I want wine to be for anybody is intimidating. And I think as you've quite rightly pointed out, the audience that we're talking to now are women who are, you know, we they've they've had their kind of starter run-in wine. So they're at the stage now where they kind of know what they like, but they definitely want to know a bit more about it. Not everything, not in a kind of, you know, geeky buy me a big old wine manual way. They're just like I'm really interested. I want to drink nice wine, you know, and beyond the point of being able to sit there and just drink any old thing because, you know, as you get older, wine hurts. So so you want to you know, you just want to make the wine that you do drink. You just want to make it count, and you want it to be something that is really delicious and that you love, and not something that's just a bit mediocre. And there's some fun, you know. We it I I think people who aren't familiar with, sort of what goes on with with women who are mothers of young children in the UK, you know, you want to, you wanna give your friends something new too that the personal time that you carve out of your life is really precious when you've got, you know, a young family, you're very busy, and carving out an hour or two to spend time with your friends. You wanna make sure that you're giving them something new and fun, that they can afford, you know, nobody has pocket full of cash these days, especially not when you've got young family. And, you know, not relying on the same old go to wine every single week, being able to come up with, you know, a bottle of something, you know, oh, Helen McGinn said this could be cool. And and having that that fun moment, that's that's another element to, I think how how women choose wine. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And of course as well with, Instagram now, I mean, Twitter a bit, but I I tend not to, do that so much, really. I'd I'll just pop on there to see if anyone's asked a question as well. So I will try and get back to them. But Instagram is wonderful for me because again, it gives me that way of having an ongoing conversation with people about wine, and I and I love it. And sometimes, you know, if I answer, when I answer now, people will say, oh gosh. I didn't expect to hear back. And I but I fall if somebody has taken the trouble to spend, you know, a few minutes asking me a question, if I can help them, I will because that that I find that I'm really grateful that they have thought, you know, I'm I'm just gonna ask Helen what she thinks about this. I think that's a lovely thing. And I think I think that is really cutting to the heart of everything you do. You know, you're you are informing. You're spreading the love. You're making it accessible. And and in a way that's that's really non judgmental so open. It's great. And, you know, with with everything you've done, you've racked up some really cool awards as well, including Fortnam and Mason's online drink writer of the year, and Red Magazine's best blogger, Brit mom's outstanding blog award, you know, these are these are big things. These are, you know, pretty serious. And I'm guessing that most of your audience is, you know, women, but it it won't be everybody. So I'm wondering, you know, how often do you hear from men, you know, young men, old men? Does your audience engage and reach out more than just nackard moms? You know, is there is there some more happening with what's going on with your audience? Well, there are a few brave men out there who put their hand up and say I want to ask a question, but I'm sure it won't surprise you to know that, but we're really much more relaxed about saying, can I ask you this? Because you might know the answer and I don't. So true. You know, I've worked in, you know, in their defense, I've worked in the Wind industry for, I mean, since ninety five. I think, yeah, ninety ninety five is when I started as a wine buyer. And, you know, so it's coming up to thirty years and it's it is a still quite a male well, it certainly was a very male dominated industry. Now there are lots more women around. Oh, I I work in Italy. Believe me. It's still pretty male dominated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but I have worked with some really really wonderful people, both men and women who have been, real role models to me. It is one of those industries that is very collaborative and supportive and, you know, I'm I'm thrilled to see it, changing as it is here, I'd say. But, yeah, I can imagine I can imagine where you are. Yeah. Well, and we're all sort of looking at at the future. You know, we know that young people are drinking less wine, and and it's important to get them into the fold, you know, show people that it's not this exclusive, you know, very, very old, dusty, crusty, bunch of people. And I I'm just wondering, you know, I I know that you're on TV, you're you've been writing columns, you've been writing books, all of these things. In what inspires you? How are you keeping this fresh? As you said, you've been doing this. You've been in the wine business out for thirty years, but you've been doing Nacrok mother, and you've developed this amazing persona. You know, people are engaging with you on a private level, which is so heartwarming. I know how it feels for me when people reach out to me on a personal level. So how are you keeping it fresh? What are you doing to to, you know, create new things as a a writer and a TV personality? Well, this what I did was that because I did get to the stage where, you know, my my career had sort of gone in ten year slot. So I've had the ten years as a wine buyer. I then did roughly ten years, when I came out of that when I was bringing up the children, I was still working in wine, but I've I moved to a part time role more in wine marketing, and it was, and then had my own consultancy for a while where I worked with lots of different wine brands, you know, as an supermarket buyer. But alongside that, that's where I started the wine blog so that that gave me a slightly different focus. But then it got to the point where because I was writing about wine, you know, pretty much all the time. I wanted to keep writing, but I knew to keep it fresh. I had to give myself my brain maybe something else to think about. And so that's when I decided to write fiction as well because I thought what I'll do is I'll write some fiction. I'll try and write some fiction, I should say. I didn't know if I'd be able to do it. But I thought I'll set it in a place where there's wine. And I will try and weave wine into the story so that even if you're reading one of my fiction books, even if you don't realize it, you you will maybe learn about a wine you haven't heard about or read about a wine that sounds so delicious it'll make you want to go and try it. So, that was why about five years ago I started writing my first fiction book, and that then born again. I mean, I was very lucky to have an ed a new editor who who found me who said actually, you know, I'm I think you can do more than just one. And so I'm currently writing on my four fiction books. I've done one a year for the last three years. And I'm just working on number four at the moment. And I think having that chat giving myself that challenge to write fiction, and then we're talking about women's commercial fiction. I'm talking about the books that I've I I thought that my readers from the Nakamada's wine club might given that I think I am them and they are me, I wrote the book that I thought some of them might want to take on holiday and read in between. They might have another far more, you know, aerodact book on the go, but this the one I want on the sum on the sun lounger. So that's the fiction I decided to write, and there is a lot of wine in it. Yeah. Well, I've read the first three. So I'm very excited to hear there's a fourth one coming. And it it's yes. Definitely. There is an element if I hide it in my bag and put my, you know, more scholarly, you know, new wines of Aetna book on top of it. But, they as you said, they're they're quite they're women centric. They're very approachable, and they do have quite a lot of a wine focus. So, a very great late night guilty pleasure. And Helen, no word of a lie. They're well written. They're not, you know, trashy Hallmark. Sort of things. They're they're well written, and there is a a lot of Italian wine, venues in there and and wines themselves. So that really appealed to me, but it's interesting how you made that transition from you know, nackard mother's wine guide and what you're doing every day, you know, as a very non fiction wine forward person on TV on your shows and your columns into this fictional world that I think, again, lends itself to to women whose lives are busy and full. They don't have a lot of free time. So being able to escape, you know, for twenty minutes when you're in the bath, it doesn't have to be holiday. You know, it can be anything, to take a book that still has some wine info in there. Still has some, you know, nice insights into, women's mentalities thing. It's very, very interesting what you've managed to accomplish, and I'm very excited that you're coming out with a fourth one. So I'm gonna look forward to that. But, well, I'm so thrilled. You've read that that's so lovely to hear. Thank you so much. And I'm I'm honestly, that makes me so happy to say to hear that you think that you're well, but they they they work for you because I mean, I love love love writing them, and I would keep setting them up because for the first three, the first one, set in, Rome, the second in, Venice, the third in Florence. So the fourth, I have left it to me for the fourth, but I think I'm gonna have to come back to Italy. Because I would really like to write one set around me and I've never been. So if anything, I want to do it, so I've got an excuse to go on and research. Oh, exciting. I think we might have to we might have to come up with some sort of trip. I'll I'll come and, take you to my favorite, my favorite top places. But I mean, since the original book and the original blog, you know, things have really changed so much. So, you know, what what's going on besides the new fiction book, You know, I know you're a wine educator. You started an expert guide to enjoying wine. You do some online things. You know, this is this is serious stuff, not that fiction isn't, but this is this is really putting yourself out there as an educator. So what prompt did that? So with the I I had always thought about the idea of doing, you know, a visual version of the Macupada's wine guide, but I hadn't really thought about how to go about it. And, of course, you know, Instagram helps make everything more visual nowadays. That's great, but it's very short form. And so I so I just sort of that idea slightly on the back burner and thought, you know, I'll I'll come back to it. And then as these things sometimes happen, it was just a, you know, really lovely lining of the stars. Is, like, I had seen this wonderful company called Create Academy who had done online wine courses for all sorts of different, things like floristry and lots of cookery and, gardening and interior design, and they are beautifully put together, as a really small team, but they will take an expert, and they'll break the courses down into sort of twenty or so, videos in about eight minutes each. So when you when you buy one, and they're usually roughly about eighty pounds or something. You can then watch each one whenever you like, and you can watch them as many times as you like. So you might the idea with the when they came to me saying how about doing a wine one, I was just I was so happy because I'm I'm basically, you know, when we had the first planning meeting and they said, okay, we're gonna have to really work out how we how we frame it. And so I just said, actually, I'm just gonna send you this book I wrote. I mean, I knew about the book obviously, but I should just have a look at that and see whether that works in terms of just breaking down the chapters that way. And so, essentially, that's what we did, which was wonderful. So, of course, the structure was all there. It was then just putting it into video format rather than the written word. So we did the whole thing unscripted. It was just bay it was honestly just Josh, the director would sit behind his camera he'd feed me a question and then I'd talk about it. So we so we knew roughly what we'd be talking about, but we wouldn't know exactly how it would come out. But I quickly decided that that that's where I've always done television anyway. You know, I I don't do stuff where I look at a camera and read words, I normally just get to talk to the person next to me about why. And so that's the I'm that's where I'm most comfortable is where I can just talk and react to the questions that are being asked as well. So that's how we did it. And it was it was a fantastic experience. I really, really loved it. I was so happy with the results, and I've heard some lovely feedback about it as well from people who have bought the course, and then they, you know, especially really lovely women who bought it. And then each evening, you know, a couple of times a week, they would sit there with a glass of wine and just just watch it before they watch whatever else they're doing or they'd watch it whilst they were, you know, pottering in the kitchen or whatever they were doing. And learning with a glass of wine in your hand is definitely the best way to do it. Oh, completely. Completely. And I I think this is this is why everything you do appeals to me so much because it is exactly as you said unscripted. Anyone who listen to my podcast knows that I'm pretty unscripted myself. But I think that's that's the way to really, stay honest. I always admit if I don't know something, I'll find you the answer if I can't answer your question, but it's it's a it's a very different method of wine education, and even education seems too formal word here, wine information without having a textbook, a language that is required, you know, certain words that must be used. I think our our world is moving away from that, and we have to be aware of that as as people in wine ourselves, and you are super aware of that. So it's really lovely to chat to you about it. And I just before I let you go, because it's gonna be painful to let you go, where where do you see the Nackered mother, you know, quote unquote brand heading in the future? You know, I I saw a quote from you where you said someday you're gonna change it into Nackered granny, but I doubt that's I doubt that's happening anytime soon. So, you know, aside from the new fiction book, what have you got in mind, you know, coming forward? What's what's coming up in the next year or two? Well, I think the way I've always approached what's happening here is, is the opportunities that come my way. I always try. And the way I've approached it in the past is if an opportunity comes up and I and I think it's that, you know, it appeals to me, then I will just absolutely go for it. So the whole television thing happened because, someone somewhere a researcher saw, the book I know. She seemed that right. She's I had a wine column in a newspaper, and so she got in touch with me via the blog to say would I go and be a a wine expert on television, and this was about ten years ago as well. And I'd never done television before, you know, apart from some media training when I was at Tesco, but that was, you know, a long time ago. Certainly had never set out to do it. But you know, I'm a it's lovely. The lovely thing about being older is you get to the stage where you think what's the worst that can happen, and you just do it anyway. And so Absolutely. Fearlessness comes into play for sure. Yeah. And I've had this amazing ten years really where I've done some of the the most fun work I've ever done in wine on television. And again, you know, I think the thing is to recognize that there are some things that you're in control of and some things that you're not And I will only be on television for as long as somebody wants me to be there. You know, at at any stage, the the format could change. People in charge can change. And, you know, suddenly, it's not there anymore. And I'm I, you know, I'm so happy with that. I think I'll I'll enjoy every second that I'm doing it. But but when it's somebody else's turn, I will be thrilled for them too. So I'll just enjoy this bit. But I guess when you're saying what's the next bit, at the moment, I I write the fiction in my spare time. So I feel like I've got that to look forward to. So when these other things stop happening, I'm not gonna sit there and think Oh, god. What should what am I gonna do now? I think I'm hoping that I'll be like, brilliant. Now I've got more time to write because at the moment, I always struggle to find carve out time to do that writing, but I look forward to having like, time when I can do that. I mean, the other thing that's happened that has just, again, just seemed completely unexpected was, I met a friend via, blogging again ten years ago, and she and I started doing virtual wine tastings during lockdown on Instagram and, her name's Kat Farmer, and she and I now do, we've just taken Wind time. We call it Wind time live. We've just take we're about to take it on tour. So instead of doing it virtually, we we are going round There's a a lovely restaurant chain here called Cote, and we're going to different venues of theirs around the country. And we did our first event in London last month. I think it was. We had eighty women who came some, most came with friends, some came on their own, and they come, and they have an evening of wine tasting, as many snacks as we can throw them, lots of cheese because we all love wine and cheese. And it's just it's educational, but we just want to bring people together over a glass of wine. And the from the feedback we've had from the first few events, this to me, I'm really excited about this because I think this is something that I would love to do a lot more of because this is taking what I've done virtually for the last ten years, and it's doing it face to face with people. And I love that. That is fantastic. And I I have to say coat was a great choice. I'm I'm a great fan of coat as you say, they're a chain. Oh, they're amazing. Yeah. They're a chain, but they're they're a step above your average chain. And they're available in some really good cities. I hope you'll get to to roll this out to women all across the UK. If you ever need a a partner in crime for Italian wine, you just let me know. But, Oh, I will. Yeah. No. This is this is fantastic, and I'm glad you're looking to find some more time to write because your fiction is, really fun. Really, really fun. And and again, well written. So, Mac or mother's wine guide, I hope it keeps getting updated. It's it's a good one. And I'm really thrilled that you had time for us today. It's this is such a fun and joyful conversation, not always the case on voices where we talk about a lot of, you know, discrimination and things like that. This is really a moment of celebrating, women and the way that they can apply joy and support to each other through wine. Super fun. Absolutely. Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed this competition. It's been lovely. Thank you. Thank you for listening and remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. 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