Ep. 1701 Marie Cheslik | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so happy to welcome Marie Cheslake to voices. Marie is a registered nurse, a certified sommelier in the Court of Masters sommeliers in the USA, and she's the founder of slick wines. She was named as one of wine enthusiasts' future forty peace makers for twenty twenty three. So thank you so much for taking the time to come and talk to us today. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's a huge pleasure. I was very excited when I saw you make the Tastemasters list. That was really cool, and I'm very interested in what you do. So let's get the ball rolling here. I want to help our listeners understand a bit about your backstory, which is a great one. You grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, drinking Paps, blue ribbon beer, which always just makes me laugh. Definitely not what we can honestly call sort of a high end alcoholic beverage, and I know about this because I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, so not far away. How did you go from being a Wisconsin girl to a registered nurse to where you are now in the wine world? How was that path that would happen? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well, you know, perhaps Blue River has a blue ribbon. So it's worth something to somebody. I don't know who. I don't know who gave him the blue ribbon, but, you know, we should start giving out blue ribbons and wine as well, but so, yeah, I mean, I grew up in the Midwest. Didn't really grow up drinking wine at all, and you know how this goes. It's more of a blue collar beer town in Milwaukee. But with you get with blue collar beer towns, it's just just a very down to earth demeanor with everything, especially being in the Midwest. People are friendly and people are nice. And people are also a little stuck in their ways, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But I think growing up and getting into wine is, yeah, sort of a contradiction from growing up in the Midwest. And growing up that way has influenced a lot of how I have pursued my career, whether it is through nursing or through hospitality. And now what I do with Slic wines. It kinda just gives me this grounded demeanor with everything that I do because I think about talking to someone from Milwaukee or someone from Wisconsin, someone who doesn't really have any idea of whether it's the wine world or the health care world of there's preconceived notions of things, but I think those things have helped me in my career immensely. So I mean, starting out in nursing was really more pragmatic than anything, and I wormed my way into wine world. Do I'm gonna dive into how I got into there? Absolutely. Yes. Definitely. I mean, I've I've read your backstory, but I'm not sure everybody who's listening has. So I would love for you to dive in there because it's it's pretty fun. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it wasn't fun at the time, but we've we finally got there and we're at this point and feels good. But so, I mean, I went into nursing school because I really like people and I really like connecting with people and being a nurse seemed like a really pragmatic way of doing that. Within nursing school, I worked as a host in a restaurant part time, and it was this for anyone who lives in Chicago. It's hub fifty one. And it's really just like a downtown bro bars, the best way I can describe this where people come in, they get rowdy, they have a good time. Maybe you'd bring your mom to dinner there, but it wasn't really a place that had a, you know, Michelin Star or James Beard award or anything about that. But if I told myself, if I liked being a host and sort of this insane downtown restaurant that I probably would like pursuing restaurant and more of a career and more of a thoughtful way. So I graduated from nursing school, I worked as a nurse, and it's it's okay. You know, I told myself if I didn't have anything else I know I wanted to do with my life, I would probably be okay with being a nurse. There's lots of different paths. You can go. There's lots of different ways you can work as a nurse. So Unless be fair, you'll always have a job. I mean, a hundred percent. I mean, I maintain licensure just to have it because I'm like, well, if slick blows up, you know, in the bad way, at least I'll have this ultimate backup plan. Right? So Yeah. Well, I'm thankful to have it, and it allows me to take more risks too because I go, well, I should just try the risky thing because again, I'll just be a Botox nurse if all of this doesn't work out, and that's fine too. Oh my god. A Botox nurse. I didn't even know there was such a thing, but, of course, I must be. Yeah. You know, people love Botox, probably as much as they love wine, and you could probably combine the two together. But That sounds terrifying. Oh my god. Well, that's why I'm there. I'm here to guide the I'm here to guide the situation. It'll be good. So I left the nursing gig in pursuit of a sort of I said, well, if I'm gonna do this restaurant thing, I should go for the highest caliber. I should just go for the gold and work for a Michelin Star restaurant. I ended up getting a job at a one Michelin Star restaurant here in Chicago. And started as a server and worked my way up to wine director. I felt like wine was a good way to make a career out of being in restaurants because I knew I didn't wanna back a house. It just wasn't my style. I like cooking, but I like cooking as a hobby. I like cooking dinner. I don't like cooking as my job. And I didn't really wanna be a server forever. And so No. Too right. I don't think anybody wants to be a server forever. Depending on where you are in the world. Like, in Europe, there are career servers, and it but it's a whole different thing. It's a whole different culture. I felt like wine was the best way for me to go. Okay. Like, let's improve my skill set. Let's, like, add another tool to my toolbox for hospitality. And I ended up just really enjoying it. I enjoyed, again, this connection with people and hearing people's stories, and there is a science aspect with making wine, much like there is with health care. So there was a lot of parallels that I saw that I wanted to pursue within that. And I was getting this sort of hands on trial by fire training in the Michelin Star restaurant. And I was also taking the certified exam through the Court, a master sommelier's. So I was kinda doing my school as well as my quote, unquote, internship or just working in the restaurant. So I kinda got this two pronged approach to wine that really expanded my horizons, I think, fairly quickly. So I'm grateful for all those experiences no matter how hard they were and how many late nights it was, but it was really fulfilling. Well, I love the connection that you've drawn between the nursing side of your life and the wine side. You know, there is a science parallel, and I hadn't really thought about that before, but it's interesting to see that connection, and especially in light of the fact that, you know, we all know that health awareness is throwing a big spotlight on alcohol, particularly in the States at the moment, but it's crossing over to Europe too now. Just wondering how you balance, you know, your nursing background, the science of that, you know, with kind of a conflicting, possibly, wine career, you know, give us your thoughts about why alcohol and wine in particular has become such a divisive topic lately. It's really It it's quite strange to listen to people and read articles as we all do about this potential for, you know, treating wine the way that we treated cigarettes in the seventies, you know, big labels and warnings and things on it. So how do you sort of balance your nursing science with this health alert for wine. Cognitive dissonance. No. It's I think it's divisive because there are truths to both sides of it. Like, you could argue that there's good and bad to drinking and not drinking. Right? And I think if you wanna look at both sides, right, I understand why people don't wanna drink, it makes people feel better It makes people, quote, unquote, healthier from all the science that we have gotten recently, you know. Some chemical compounds within wine is good for you, but the alcohol itself is not good for you. And you could get those chemicals through eating other foods and doing other things. So people would say, well, if I'm looking at strictly from a health standpoint, maybe it's not really the way to go. But we live in a world of contradictions. We are people We contradict ourselves all the time, whether it's physiologically, psychologically, or culturally. And I think about working in the hospital, and I would see marathon runners, people who ate super clean, whole foods, things like that. And we just got one guy in particular, a marathon runner came in and got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. And that's not fair. Right? That's not right. It's a it shouldn't happen to people like that, but it does every day. And on the other side of the coin, there's people who smoke and drink every day and they die of old age or die of a car accident. Right? Something completely unrelated. And so physiologically, I think there's just contradictions within that too, where it's like, if nursing really taught me anything, it's that if you wanna be fit, if you wanna be healthy, if you wanna eat whole foods and that makes you feel good, You should do it because it makes you feel good or makes you feel confident. Not necessarily because it's going to make you live longer because that's not really a guarantee. And even on the other side of that, this cultural side, right, where I think about Drinking is such a wonderful way of connecting with people, and you can drink wine without getting drunk. Right? Like, you you can just enjoy a glass of wine. You can enjoy a couple of beers. And I think even culturally, these contradictions, I think looking at other countries is very interesting as well. Turkey, particularly Istanbul, is a country where it's more than ninety percent Muslim. And within the Muslim religion, you're are not supposed to drink, but the culture of Turkey is longer and stronger than the culture of Islam. So even though you'll have you'll have Turkish Muslims in Turkey drinking wine, because that is part of the culture. And that's a contradiction as well, but people go, you know, that's just the way it is. And that's how I feel kind of about wine where it's wherever stance you wanna take, there's valet there's validity in all sides, but I am more on the side of, look, we're all gonna die anyway. I know I'm a responsible adult who can drink a glass of wine with dinner. And not only that, but how to be my career and really connect people and find deeper meaning within that. And if people wanna subscribe to that, awesome. Follow along. You know? But if you don't wanna subscribe, that's also fine and valid and suits your life better. So think of just Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, there's there is space for everybody's, you know, method of living their life. I mean, I know personally I wouldn't want to live longer if I couldn't drink wine. So, you know, there's there's that as well. But I I think you've hit something really important. The connections that can be made, you know, the history, the culture behind wine, it's not just, you know, an alcohol delivery device. It's, it's something that has played a part in many, many cultures for such a long time that it's hard to divide that past, you know, from from the alcoholic drink that may or may not be in your glass. So I think it's gonna be a hot topic for quite a while, and I really dread the moment that we lose this beautiful history of what is a very basic, drink, you know, made from grapes and nothing else because of, you know, fear mongering over health. And I think you're right as well about being a responsible adult, not everyone is, but you know, those those of us who are, I think having the opportunity to, you know, make our own decisions and and not limit our opportunities is important. So it's it's a very interesting discussion, and I know it's kind of a throw you under the bus moment when I ask people about this because it's we're all still navigating this. So it's interesting, but I think your perspective as a nurse and as a wine professional is particularly unique. And I I like how you have kind of boiled it down to something that you can live with and that you can discuss and making room for other people's views. It's important. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think there's no mystery that gen z is more on the non alcoholic train. And I think that's fine and good. But I think also what I see on the internet is also different than what I see in Chicago and people I talk to on a daily basis. Like, a lot of the people I talk to who are gen z younger generation are really interested in learning about wine, but not in a way of just drinking, but in the way that probably you and I and anyone else listening to this podcast relates to where they're like, oh, like, I've never been to Italy. Like, I can't afford going to Italy, but the closest I can get is drinking Italy. Right? Yeah. Bottle bottle tourism, we call it. That's right. Passport with a bottle. So I think yeah. I mean, the the gen z that's coming up that is saying that alcohol is poison, it's all cyclical. It's like fashion It's like anything. It's like it's all gonna kinda come around to the next generation, but I'm here and I'm on board for the people who wanna explore that with me. And if you don't, that's awesome. Well, I'm I'm with you. I'm on that train. Perfect. Come along. What's going together? I I wanna cycle back to to what you said, you know, sort of talking about your backstory. You know, your path into wine was through the restaurant industry, and you were working, you know, on the floor when you were in nursing school. And I'm just wondering sort of When was the moment? You know, what drove you to apply to the Court of Master Sommeliers? And, you know, of course, we've all heard in the past few years, the scandals, the misogyny. I am. Yeah. So I'm just wondering you know, obviously, you are a strong and smart woman with a scientific background. What was your experience like when you were studying there and becoming certified? And what drove you to actually take that step to say, okay. I'm I'm gonna I'm going into the Court of Master Sommelier. Yeah. I think that's a fair question too with all things considered in the Julia Moscow article at the New York Times. And, you know, I pursued quartermaster Smaley's at the time because I like structured learning. I like going to college. I like having a schedule. I like being held to expectations by other people and meeting them. And wine is a little wild westy, and I also like that aspect as well. But I felt like that doing this more kind of traditional, quote unquote, schooling with wine would help me understand it better. And frankly, I think people also see the Court of Master Smolier's from a general standpoint, like the normal everyday person would say, oh, like, that's impressive. That's good. It makes me trust you more. Right? So I'm, you know, in some ways, I'm proud to wear that badge and still have it. And that's what pursued me to do it, and I don't regret it at all. I think it's really helped my career a lot. And it's also helped me understand wine better and help me teach it better. There are some things within the court that are good sort of standardized ways to look at wine, and I think that's a good jumping ground to be like, okay. This is what kind of quote and quote you're supposed to do. Now this is what I would do instead. Right? So I'm very glad I've done that. But, yeah, I mean, with what's been happening and what has has happened, and I know they're doing a lot to change it. They have Emily wines running it now, which is amazing, and she is great. And I know they're trying to do a lot of to sort of fix the wrongs that have happened in the past. But when I was taking quarter master sommeliers, this all was actively happening, but I had no idea. I was really in my own bubble, and I guess I'm grateful for that in my own ways where the Chicago wine community is small, but mighty. And everyone is pretty friendly. And I don't know if this is a midwestern disposition type thing. Or just sort of the lack of pretentious wine culture in general, as opposed to maybe if I took this in Napa. Right? And I'm sort of exposing myself more to, like, Napa winemakers, and I'm not kinda I'm done with being on Napa here, but, like, it's just a very different world. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, taking this level of wine course in a place that is not wine centric, you know, where that you are not surrounded by vineyards I live in Verona. I live just outside of town, so right near Valpolicella. So I understand the whole Napa scene in an Italian way. But I think doing wine courses, I did mine in London. I'm a sommelier too, and did did that in Rome as well. And it wasn't wine centric. And there's something a little bit freeing about doing a wine course that's important to you in a place that is not wine centric. I agree. And I think, I definitely agree with that. And I think that was really important to me pursuing it as well. Maybe if I did get more pushback, I would say this isn't for me, but because I would just was surrounded by very supportive people. My boss at the time at the restaurant was incredibly supportive. He's really like a mentor to me. And in that way, and, you know, that way it's lucky, right, that I was kind of at the right place at right time, and not to discredit all the things that happens, within the court that shouldn't have happened, you know, people shouldn't, you know, men should not be abusing their power on women for something that they want. That's objectively horrible. And I'm glad that the court is really trying their best, but I don't always recommend it to people, not just because of the misogyny and this and the accusations that have happened, but because a sommelier in the truest sense is really someone who works in a restaurant. And most people I interact with don't have plans on working in restaurants. Don't have plans of opening a bottle of sparkling wine table side as quietly as possible in a counterclockwise direction. Right? That's not the goal for a lot of people. And so it's, like, it's a little it's very specific. And I think people look at it because it's the one we talk about the most, but I usually nudge people in other directions, whether it's WSET or, just like learning on your own or using slick wines as sort of a guide to help learning about wine, in a more approachable way. So I just think it's not really for everyone from a career standpoint. Well, I agree with that, and we're gonna cycle back to why, in a minute because both of us are educators, and both of us feel pretty strongly about the way that wine is taught. So I'll park that for just a second. And let's talk about slick wines because, you know, you you were hugely successful in your hospitality career. You were, you know, the wine director at Elski, you know, Michelin starred restaurant in Chicago, as you said. You worked your way up. And you sort of chucked that, to swerve into the educational side of things. You founded slick wines in twenty twenty, you know, mid COVID. So what gave you the idea because it was risky time to start a new business and to chuck a career where you were doing, you know, very, very well. So what gave you the idea and and how did you make that transition? Yeah. So, you know, I was really riding high on my career right before COVID happened. Weren't we all weren't we all? I know how convenient for everyone to be, you know, just demolished by COVID. But, you know, this, clever little nursing degree thing and go, well, like, yeah, this sucks. And All the restaurants are closed, but at least I can work, you know, and at least I can do something and make money and survive. And help people, not not not to turn your nose up at and help people. Let's just say that. Yes. Of course. I mean, that's always sort of the why also would you be a nurse if you didn't want to help people as well too? So I guess, yeah, it's to say the quiet part out loud. Yes. I also wanted to help people during this time. I think about the, nurses during the eighties, like HIV epidemic, right, where that was people were scared to work as a nurse then too because people didn't know how HIV works and they were like, you know, is it by contact? Is it airborne? And, you know, later we learned that none of those things are true. But just as scary of a time, and I really respect all those nurses. And I was like, you know, if I could if I could do that with my life, like, I would just feel really proud of myself and the things I've accomplished. So went back to the, yeah, nursing COVID workforce, which was, objectively really, really hard, really challenging. I would come home, my now wife, just like in tears and just didn't know what to do. I knew I couldn't obviously, go back to work in restaurants because they were closed. But as I was working in the hospital during COVID, I was really asking myself to, like, do I really wanna work in restaurants again? Is that really, like, where I get my the most satisfaction because as hard as it was working as a nurse during COVID, it was also incredibly fulfilling. And I, as you can tell, I'm kind of gone back and forth between, like, where I find value within my nursing career versus where I find value in my wine career. And I was just not really convinced that working in restaurants was really the best thing for me. And really the nail in the coffin was that I was having a meeting with my my bosses, the owners of the restaurant, And I was really trying hard to implement a lot of COVID, you know, implementations being like, can we get plexiglass in front of the host stand? Are we gonna get n ninety five masks? And if we are, where are we getting them? Because hospitals aren't even getting them? And I was pushing hard for a safer work environment in the restaurant. And, you know, they didn't say it out loud, but, they fired me because they said I wasn't happy there anymore. And I said, okay, heard that. Understood. So what do I do now? You know, like, do I work in another restaurant? Do I what's my next step? And I just knew immediately. I'm like, I need to create my own path within this because I don't know how long this COVID thing is gonna stick around for, but I wanna continue working in wine, but, restaurants are obviously not a place where it is stable to do that. And so I created slick as a way to connect with people through wine and through a very safe environment. So that's really how slick got started. It was August of twenty twenty when that happened. So it's been a little more than three years now. Well, slick is very cool. So anybody who doesn't know about slick wines, s l I k, from the from the second half of your surname, you need to check it out because the mission is to focus on the average everyday drinker who wants to use wine as a way to connect with people and see new places and enrich their lives you know, all the things that you've been talking about, obviously, the things you're passionate about and and I am too. So, you know, you've come up with this idea in a very difficult time and struck out on your own and you're now creating this really interesting, very accessible, interactive way of getting people at the wine table, which is kind of my mantra. I wanna make the longest table with as many seats as I can possibly get and get them all filled. So Love that. How are how are you creating a safe space, you know, an an accessible space for people who want to get into the wine world without being intimidated? You know, we talked about wine language can be intimidating, you know, wine lists can be intimidating. How are you making this safe space for people to really feel, you know, comfortable and to learn? Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. Yeah. I think that's a great question. I think that's a question that everyone is sort of asking within the wine world and answering within their own right. I think it's a very exciting time for wine right now, because I think all these conversations are turning into action slowly, but surely. And really the way that I do this, everyone's gonna give you a different answer, obviously. But the way I do this is very similar to how I worked as a nurse where it's, again, so many parallels, like, diabetes can be very complicated, from a MD, from a medical doctor standpoint, you can get really into the nitty gritty. And wine is the same way. You can really get into the nitty gritty, whether it's, like, fermentation methods or clones, you know, like, you can really and they're all important. It's not negating the importance of this. But I feel like people just don't care about the nitty gritty all the time, at least in my community and in the people I talk to. We call it the geeky stuff here. That geeky stuff. Not everybody wants the geeky stuff. Not everyone. I would say most people don't want the geeky stuff. And I would say people like you and me and people who listen to this podcast are here for the geeky stuff. And you found that, you know, and you found your people. Oh, completely. This is Geeks on drill. For sure. I am in the mecca, right, and I can feel it. And it feels good. But the people I like to teach and the people I interact with the most, being Chicago based, being Midwest and just being who I am, I would rather give you the too long didn't read. But in a way that doesn't do a disservice, but in a way that makes you feel like that you can understand it. And that's the first stepping stone to that. Right? So, again, you can get into Geek Zone with the, diabetes metaphor. But you really wanna give people, okay, you now have diabetes. Welcome. Here's your really easy to read pamphlet. I'm gonna teach you how to take your blood glucose, and we're not gonna overwhelm you, you know, and we're just gonna start there. And don't be scared. Don't be scared. Yeah. Don't be scared. Yeah. Exactly. And you're not alone. I think those two things are important no matter what you're teaching someone about. You know, I've been a teacher for a long time, and telling people, look, you came you came to me. You either have this curiosity or in the case of diabetes, you have this problem, and you want some information, and you want to learn. And my job is to make sure you you know, aren't scared, and you don't feel like you're doing this on your own. So I completely agree with all of that. And it's working for you, like working big time, you know, slick has twenty six thousand followers on Instagram alone. And sort of ninety thousand, almost a hundred thousand followers across all your other channels. So what is it that you are doing that you think is so attractive that is working, you know, how are you getting these followers. Obviously, you're a nice person with a great personality and you're passionate, and that's why we're talking today. But not everybody can turn their awesome personality into a booming business. So what are you doing that's working? I ask myself this. All the time. Getting myself in front of a camera and being comfortable with that. I mean, a lot of the things that I create are on a video format. I don't do a lot of writing. I mean, I write scripts out for my videos sometimes, but really, the video format is is king in my opinion. And so getting in front of a camera, learning how to talk, going on podcasts, and thinking about how do I want to convey when I'm conveying? In a way that feels genuine and approachable. And what feels genuine to me is a lot of humor and usually a lot of dark humor, and I got that probably from working in the hospital because When you sit and watch people die all the time, like, you can either internalize that and be like, wow, this is horrible, or you just do what every other doctor, nurse does, and just, like, just not take it so seriously. And, you know, I'm using these extreme hospital, examples, because I think if you can go from one extreme of seeing these things, and then you look at wine, you go, oh, it's just wine. Like, who care, like, who cares? Like This is so true. And and that is a great thing to say. It's only wine. It's not brain surgery. It's not we're not safe. I mean, I would joke that at the restaurant too. I'd say it's just dinner. We're not saving lives. Like, it's okay if you ring in the order wrong. It's okay if you spilled wine on the table. Like, it's just dinner. It's okay. And so if I can take that sort of attitude and put it in a video and just be my genuine self, which is, apparently entertaining because people like watching me talk about it, then I feel like that's a win because I can do what feels real to me and people get value out of that. And I can't think of really anything better in life than doing that. And slick has allowed me to do that. Well, it's it is a great, great thing that you creating, and I know you've got a series of books coming out under development about how to read a wine label. And I really love this concept because this is another totally intimidating thing. You know, a lot of restaurants you walk in, they hand you a wine list. It's like the size of a Bible and it's it can really be off putting. Suddenly you you just want sparkling water and you don't wanna think about it. So, you know, tell our listeners, you know, how did you come up with this concept and how are the books gonna work? And when are they gonna be available? What's What's the deal with these books? Because I think a lot of people are gonna be very interested. I know I am because there'll be a great teaching tool. Yeah. Well, thank you. And I really feel like wine labels are the only thing that most people go off of when they're picking a bottle of wine, generally in a grocery store setting when you can or, wine shop setting where you can see the label. I have worked some shifts at my friend's wine shop. I'm not really retail oriented, but, I help out at bottles up in Chicago if any of you are familiar. And just having people come in and seeing how people interact in a wine purchasing setting, And, of course, I'm there to help, but sometimes I'll just leave people to their own devices and see what they do. And then I will ask them. I'm like, oh, have you had this? And he said, no. I just like the label. And you're like, okay. What do you like about I love the honesty. I love the honesty. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's great. You know? And I I think that's wonderful and people can admit that. And I go, well, that's great. What did you like about the label? And sometimes you're like, oh, there's a cat on it. You're like, okay, great. That's dumb. Everyone likes a cute cat on a label. And then you go, well, okay. That's kind of interesting. If, like, people are looking at labels and making decisions based on that, like, with a little bit of education, and I think every sommelier knows this where it's like, the words on the label are the most important part, and it will tell you what the wine will taste like without even opening it. So it's like, okay. Like, if I can take some of the stuff I learned working in retail, working in the restaurant, working, and then, like, taking quarter master sommeliers and sort of slickify it and make a small book out of this, This could be a really practical tool for people to learn about I I equate it like doing math homework. And many of you, maybe who have done math homework, you're kind of like, crying with your dad at one o'clock in the morning trying to figure out all these math problems, but the thing about math problems is that you just do the same thing over and over and over and over again until you get it. And I think reading a wine label is the same way. So it's just like, let's have a glossary of common words. Then let's just give a ton of examples and break down what every single word means on a label. And then people will start seeing patterns, and people will start understanding and go, oh, Côte Dorone. That looks familiar. Like, let's talk more about that. Or, you know, I guess it's Italian wine podcast, so I should use Italian examples. But it's really just trying to connect people with the visceral reaction they have when they see a wine label and go, okay. If, like, I can give people a little bit of a tool and a little bit of a push in one direction, people will start making decisions based on the actual words, not just like the pictures on the label. And then that makes people more confident and just gets people and people who work in, you know, restaurants or retail more excited because then They'll have better language to say. Oh, well, I tried. I tried I never had a white wine from Sicily, but I love that. And you go, okay, great. Like, that's way more of a headway than saying, like, oh, I like I like a Zippy white wine, and it's like, yeah, that's helpful. But it would be really cool if we were all a little more on the same page and closing that gap a bit. So that's the goal with these books. Well, I think it's a gray goal. And as I would love to see it sort of be turned on its head and become a tool for producers as well because, you know, America, you're a little bit more fortunate with more modern labels. Okay. You're a lot more fortunate with modern labels. But Italian producers, and and producers around the world, I think sometimes, you know, the the temptation to get a little up yourself and use your family crest and, you know, funny fonts and all these sorts of things, there isn't a lot of words on the label that that are helpful. And, you know, with Italian wines, sometimes they're just all in Italian. They're not in English. And it does make it more difficult for consumers outside of Italy, which is what they all want. They're wines to be drunk outside of Italy. To to figure out what the heck is happening. So I love the fact that these books are going to be a really helpful tool for consumers, but I'd love to see them be turned on their head and become a tool also for producers, you know, to figure out how to market better, how to make smarter labels, how to be more attractive to people who are new to the, to the wine world, and new to wine drinking, and catch their attention while they're excited, and while they're, you know, figuring out what they like and what they don't like. So I love the idea of these books. I I think there'll be a great success. When are they gonna be ready? That's a good question. So I do have a literary agent, which is promising. The proposal is done. So we're kinda shopping it around to publishers right now. So I've never done anything like this before, so I'm kinda learning this as I go as well. But essentially, the literary agent is your middle man to get you connected with publishers like penguin random house or other ones that I can't think of right now. But his job is to help me find a home for it. So we are hopefully gonna find a home for it in the next month or so. And then hopefully, by the end of next year, would be the goal. So we have a real we're a little ways away, but you can follow the journey on slickWines. If you are interested in hearing more about that. That's perfect. As I said, I'm gonna be talking to producers I work with about this concept. I I try now, but, having something actually printed that makes them see that I I'm not talking nonsense will be very, very useful. So Yeah. I'll help validate you for sure. Awesome. I can use all the validation I can get. You know, and I was thinking about it too, because I'm in I've been talking with co brand a lot about this book too, and they're, you know, they're a wine importer here in America. And they kind of get around this because they feel the same way. They're like, okay. Yeah. We have these, like, Italian brands that, like, they don't wanna change the label because there is so much history behind it. We understand that, but, like, as the importer, you have a lot of control on the back label. And so, like, they're kinda work around with this, and I've seen this most commonly with French wines and, like, the Lujado wines, which are wildly popular. If you turn if you turn it over, at least in the American market, I don't know what it looks like in the Italian market, but they tell you very plainly, like, this is the grape, this is the region, and this is what this wine will taste like. And I'm like, honestly, that's all most people really want anyway. And, like, if you can't convince the wine maker to change the label for many valid reasons, it's kind of an interesting thought to go to the importer or the distributor instead and be like, look, if you really wanna sell more of this wine, like, Yes. I'm doing my part by trying to teach consumers, but, yeah, we need to kinda close this gap a little more. Particularly, yes, with Italian wines, which are notoriously intimidating, and we all know this. Completely. Completely. So Well, I'm I'm wishing you all the best of luck with finding a publisher and getting those books out because we need them. We need them in our life. Tell the publishers that. Email your publisher today. Yeah. Both of us are are wine edge educators quite clearly, you know, we've we've been talking about this and sort of skirting around the issue throughout this whole conversation. And I just wanna get your opinion. I think I know what you're gonna say, and I think I'm gonna agree with you. What what do you see in the future of wine education? You know, we've we've talked about in a rigid language keeping people out, complicated labels keeping people out. You know, what direction would you like to see wine education take? You know, do you think conventional certificates like WSET and similar things are still relevant or useful or necessary? How how do you see wine education going forward? And slick does a lot of wine education. So I wanna hear your thoughts on this. Right. Definitely. I mean, I think the future is what I'm trying to do. And, like, this takes years to figure out. Right? Like, I'm year three, and I'm like, I just brought on a, like, a strategist. It's like, he's a he's a cool sales marketing dude. He works for a big corporate company here in America. And just like, how do we get more people drinking wine? That's essentially what the goal is with wine education. It's like to make people feel confident to buy more wine and to share it with people and to have that as the conduit for human connection. Like, that's the ultimate goal and mission with slick. And so what do we have to do to do that? And it's like, we have to create for me, I think the goal is creating accessible content, creating accessible videos, and much like, you know, what food and wine does, which is I always laugh at food and wine because it's not really about the wine at all. And, like, if you even look at the, sorry, Ray Isle, if you're listening to this or whatever, but it's, like, if you look at the website, I feel like people still don't know how to talk about wine in a way that a lot of people really understand. And so I think we have to really go over the basics again and have a platform where the basics are presented in a very matter of fact way. Much like the diabetes example, like, not getting into geekdom right away. We'll get there eventually, but, like, we need to all be on the same foundational layer. And slick is very much trying to create that, like, okay. Like, I wanna learn about wine. Yeah. There's some basic videos that everyone has sort of does. Like, you know, wine quality does this too, where it's like, what is wine? And, yeah, like, those videos can be helpful, but then we need to start asking sort of more relevant questions and to different kinds of people. And, like, I can sit here all day and talk about my opinion about things or teach people things, but I think bringing also a diverse group of people to talk about, okay, like, you've worked as a a supplier for thirty years. You've seen wine change in America for thirty years. What does that look like? Or, okay, you teach WSTT in Central America. Like, what does the wine culture look like in Mexico or Venezuela or Guatemala? Right? Like, those conversations are wing are way more interesting to me, and I think interesting to a wider swath of people. So bringing in wine where it's like, yes, like, there is some teaching involved and, like, yes, there is a little bit of a baseline that people should know to understand the conversations a little bit better, but really just connecting wine with people in a broader aspect that's not just interviewing winemakers. So that's a lot of what we're gonna be doing with slick. Is bringing in lots of different kinds of people. I've made a lot of connections, you know, working here in Chicago. So we'll just have people who are some alleys in restaurants and asking them, would you take Court of Master, some alleys? Do you think this is worth it? Right? Or working with WSTT educators saying is, like, passing WSTT, a sommelier. Does that make you a sommelier? Like, I think things that people get very confused. So if we can do this in black and white, very straightforward, on a platform where it's all presented nicely, and then we can get into some cooler conversations. That's what's the stuff that really excites me. And I think is helpful. And, you know, is are these conventional certifications like WCT relevant. I think it just depends on what your goal is. Like, if you want to work in wine, if you want to work for a distributor, an importer, work in restaurants, you should probably take either quartermaster, sommeliers, or W SET just so you know what the heck is going on and what people are talking about. But you don't need it, but I would advise to do it. But if that's not your goal, if you don't wanna work in wine, I don't think you don't need to do any of those things. I think you could just consume free content online, go to your local wine shop, hang out, listen to your favorite wine podcast, all of these things are essentially free, and that would be much better for you, and you would get what you wanted out of it. I think that's a really good point. The the fact that people are confused, you know, what what does having a WSTT diploma mean versus, you know, being certified at the Court of Master sommelier, things like that. I think think you're right. You've hit on a really important note there. People aren't just confused about wine. They're confused about wine people. So, which makes our uphill climb even more difficult. So I'm a little more depressed now than I was when we started this conversation. Perfect. The goal of this podcast, right, and make you more depressed by the end. Perfect. Exactly. But I think what you're pointing to and and what we've spoken about so much throughout the conversation is getting people connected And whatever it takes to connect them, whether we connect them because they're different from each other, or we connect them because they're the same, or however we do it is going to be what solves sort of the conundrum of of where we are in the wine world right now. So That's it's a really this has been such an interesting topic, and I will let you go, but I'm just gonna ask you for the heck of it because this is Italian wine podcast, as you pointed out, and we've only talked about French wines. What's your favorite Italian wine? If you were gonna crack open a bottle, what would you have? I haven't asked that question in a long time. I just thought I would ask you. In the spirit of, like, you know, talking about slick and, like, what we do, I think, the Elena Walk wines are all Wonderful. Good choice. Yeah. They're all just like twenty bucks or less for all the entry level stuff. And I think it also introduces a really interesting conversation where it's like, yeah, they make a pinot grigio from Alto Adi Jay. This is typical. This is classic. Right? And there's something you can learn from a professional standpoint from that. But then they also make Mueller Thergal. And you're like, what the hell is Mueller Thergal? You know? And it's like, you start going down this rabbit hole and you start looking at a map of Italy and you go, Oh my god. You're so close to Slovakia and Austria when you're in this part of Italy. And I think it just kind of can open the door really easily of like, yeah, there's something super entry level. Something super enjoyable. You don't have to think twice about it. But then, yeah, you can have a, like, a hundred percent Merlo. And you go, wow. I didn't even think, you know, a lot of people would go. I don't know. They made just Merlo in Northern Italy. Right? And then they have higher level stuff, the above the cloud series that they do, which is, I think, one of their highest level wines, are, just, like, beautiful. Like, those wines are stunning. So it's, like, there's a little bit of something for everyone, and there's a lot of doors to be open. So I think Elena walks wines are just really exciting. Well, I I love Elena Walk's Cantina. I love her wines. I love the fact that it's women owned. Her daughters are are coming into taking over the business now too. So it's going to remain women owned and women run for for quite a long time. The the story behind it is excellent. And the wines, as you said, are surprising. They are easy to confront if you haven't had Italian wines before, and you know that you like, you know, a Merlo, so you can have an Italian Marlo from the mountains, you know, as opposed to sort of an Italian Marlowe from Tuscany, which is gonna be completely different. So Sure. Yes. Excellent choice. I'm very happy I asked you that. And I I do love a women owned and women run Kentina. So that was a perfect answer. Same. I feel the same way. Marie, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I think this conversation was, you know, exciting and interesting. I love your point of view, and we wish you all the best with slick. I know I'll be keeping my eye on it, and I hope others will as well. So good luck. And thank you so much. Thank you again. I appreciate it. Thank you for listening and remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at italian wine podcast dot com SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.