Ep. 1712 Tahiirah Habibi | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals. Discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am totally excited to welcome Tahira Habibi to voices. Tahira has a hugely impressive string of accomplishments to her name, including being the first black woman on the cover of wine enthusiasts when she was named forty under forty tastemaker in twenty twenty. She was in the top five best songs in South Florida in twenty fourteen. And in twenty twenty three, she made the list of best black sommeliers in Ebony Magazine. But she's probably best known as the founder of Hugh Society, and I'm really excited to talk to her about her next venture for for that. So thank you so much for making time to be with us today Tahira. Welcome to the show. Thank you. That might be my favorite intro ever. It was short. It was sweet. It was I I wasn't cringing. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's great to talk to you. And I know a lot of our listeners are gonna be really excited to hear about what say, but I just wanna get a little of your backstory out there for, you know, in case there's anyone left on the planet who doesn't know who you are. You grew up in Philadelphia and you moved to Miami, and I just wanna talk a little bit you know, as you said, short and sweet about how you found your way into the wine world, when did you decide wine was gonna be your passion? Yeah. My my entry, my pathway into wine is a little bit different. It wasn't my intention to joined wine industry because, I loved drinking or or any of those kinds of things, or I was so passionate about wine. For me, it was more of like a power move and and a a way to create some access for myself. I noticed how powerful, particularly, you know, back in when I joined the industry back in, like, two thousand eight or nine when I started studying, it was a completely different world than it is now. Like, now wine is more for enjoyment. But back then, you know, we both know it was, like, it was grueling out there. You know, there was one one lane that you could go in, through the Porta Masters. And it was it was a lot more powerful in the sense of, like, status and and stature kind of things. And so for me, I saw that. And I also saw that people who looked like me were kinda left out of it intentionally or unintentionally, we just were not involved. And if we were not seeing ourselves, we weren't participating. I didn't grow up drinking wine. I didn't know anybody else who grew up drinking wine. So in my head, I'm a very community oriented person. So I said, oh, well, this is something I gotta take back to the community. I need to take this back to the hood because this is this this is, you know, and I'm looking at the numbers, right, billions of dollars in this industry. And I'm just like, what's going on. Like, this is a power thing, and no one none of us were really paying attention to it. So it's it was just interesting that I ended up, you know, really pursuing my career, and I just happened to be really good at it. At the same time. Well, you you started in hospitality. Didn't you? Yeah. I did. So I was already working in restaurants. I was a hostess when I started taking wine classes in Philadelphia. So I was taking classes at night and you know, doing the hostess thing during the day, and I was introduced to it because I was working in a restaurant. And, you know, prior to that, I had been a bartender and, you know, a cocktail server and stuff like that. So I already had, like, hospitality background. Yeah. Which is important. I think, you know, most of us in the wine world started off somewhere in hospitality. And I think, as much as, you know, I don't think anybody ever sets off with the goal of being a waitress or a hostess forever, having that kind of you know, floor experience really puts you in touch with it. So you were hosting and bartending, and you found wine, and you decided that it was a big business, and you wanted part of the action. I love that story. That's amazing. But it's interesting because you're completely right about, you know, back in the day, and, of course, I'm older than you. So you got started in two thousand and eight. You know, I was beyond that by by some good stretch of time. You know, and you're right. You know, wine was very formal, really rigid. There were only a few paths in, you know, for you, it was, you know, having a goal to become the first black female master sommelier because the Court of Master Smelier in the US was kind of the only way in in those days. I I was at the Court in London and and doing WSTT in London. Yeah. So I was white, but I was still the only woman in the room all the time. Yeah, the outlines change, but the systems are the systems. Right? So they affect us all differently. But unless you are or in that time, in particular, unless you were a white man, there was some there there was something that you were gonna have to, like, fight through. That's for sure. And you really, you know, had a massive fight and, you know, a pretty traumatic experience at the Court of Master Sommelier, you know, again, briefly, what what happened, and how did you sort of decide to veer away from that really traditional path and find, you know, a positive way to deal with the damage that they caused while you were trying out that path. You get so indoctrinated when you kinda started your career. And I I fully believed that that was my only even though I had had certifications, they weren't enough. So I thought the only way that I anybody would take it seriously, particularly as a black woman, in this space, which at the time, I didn't know any other black woman. I didn't really know any other other black people. And so I knew I I had a hill that I was climbing a mountain, not even a hill. Like Yeah. A mountain for sure. Right? And so I knew I had to be the best because that's just how we're programmed. Right? Like, anytime we go into a space, which we are not the majority of representation, I e, rap, or, athleticism or something like that, we have to be the best at it. And that's just our that's how we're taught. And so I knew that going in. And I knew that in order for me to to get to the level that I want to get into, you know, I had to study my my chocha off. And so it was definitely I studied all the time. I moved to Miami after I finished my certifications at the Wise School, Philadelphia. In mind you, I have these certifications So I'm good. I know my stuff. I'm smart. I know all of these things. And in my head, I was still starting at ground zero because I had not had a CMS certification. And so I moved to Miami randomly. No apartment, anything. But I had decided I'm gonna start my wine career, and it can't be in Philadelphia. So it's either gonna be in Miami or California. Flipped a coin, ended up in Miami, was studying as I worked as, again, this time I wasn't hostess. I was working, as a cocktail server on rooftop in, a restaurant, Miami. And so I was studying, you know, again, during the day and working at night. And so I moved in, June. September was my test. So in that time, my head was down. I was just going at it, you know, with the books. Because I was so nervous about these tests. That is not a lot of time for that test. That is a hard test. And I was so nervous about it. I was so nervous. I was terrified. And the other part of it is I was broke. Right? I had found an apartment at some point, but I had to fly to New York to take this test. The that's the closest place they were offering. And and I was so hell bent on getting these certifications and, you know, getting to the top to become a master. Some that, you know, I was, like, sooner the better. And so I was willing to sacrifice that time and and all the the things that I needed to do, but when you take any tests, you're funding yourself, right, which is another barrier. And so I had to pay for my hotel. I had to pay for my flight. I had to pay for the test. It's a two day test. You know, all these things are in alignment. So what ended up happening is the instructors at the beginning of the the class, you know, it it was kinda pompous. And, you know, I I feel like I don't know if it's like that anymore, but I feel like they try to intimidate you a bit a bit. My god. You're being very kind. I'm I'm being gracious, but, you know, and so they they made it very clear, like, you, you're not allowed to directly talk to me. You need to to And if you do address me, you need to address me as master. You know, it's no secret that there are not a lot of, black and brown people in the white industry, at least at that time. And I was the only black person in the class. And so I kinda looked around, like, I know they not I know they not be a burell. And no one flicked, no one looked, no one anything. And I was just like, this this I'm just gonna like, they can't be serious. They have to mean something else. And so in my eagerness, I raised my hand because I had a question. And they didn't, you know, they they called on me, and I went to start asking my question. And, basically, they were like, you need to address me as master. And I everything in my soul shattered because I just couldn't believe that you could be this obtuse. Like, you there's no way that you're telling this black woman in this class and all the instructors were white, that I need to call you master. This is the twenty first century. It's not eighteen fifty five. I mean, this happened very recently. Alright. And I'm just like, this there's no way. And so, I knew from that point on that this wasn't my path and it wasn't something that I could continue on with. And, you know, because the the the the courses, they go up and up. And so the next test, you would have to serve them And I just couldn't imagine doing service and and and calling the master. Like, that was just a lie for me. And I didn't wanna be in community or company with people who didn't see my humanity. Who didn't see anything wrong with that, who didn't, you know, feel like, oh, we might need to reel this one in, or or this is this actually isn't okay. And I know, like, the language is not built for me. And, you know, the courses and and none of these languages are built for us, like, even to this day when you take these tests, It's all Eurocentric fruits and vegetables and all of that kind of stuff. And I just knew at that point, like, okay. Well, this is not gonna be it. So I passed the test, you know, with flying colors because I had already had certifications. I knew the information. And so I I was defeated. I was terrified. I went back home. I cried a lot, but I never told anybody because I was so scared of people not taking me serious and discrediting me and and what I knew and and all those things. And so, I did have the one certification from them. In December of that year, I got a call to open this outrageous because everybody in the town at that point knew that I was studying via Psalm, and I would say it out loud to anybody. Oh, I'm gonna be ASSAm. Like, there's this this, you know, you make a lot of money cocktail serving in Miami, but it's no. No. This is not for me. Like, I'm not getting comfortable with this. I'm I'm not going to do this. I'm gonna be a soft. And so, you know, once the guests, I recommended me, and I got a call to interview. And, basically, I did well on an interview. I was very nervous. My boss at the time is very thick French accent, so I couldn't, you know, always understand what he was saying. And the interview was Yeah. I messed up a little bit, but they call me back. And they said, you know, we wanna offer you a cocktail serving job. And I said, no. Even if it's at the same reaches, the answer is no. I'm going to be a And so if I wanna be a cocktail, sir, I'll stay where I'm at. I'll find my sound job. And then they called me back and was like, okay. You're right. It's what they offer. I'm positioned. But I knew, you know, that fear I lived with that fear for a long time, but then that fear kind of got pushed down because when I started working at the same beaches, I had to start battling other, you know, kind of fit situations in which I had no idea where were coming at me. So I didn't even have time to focus on this looming thing of, like, oh, you don't you're you don't have all three of these certification kind of things, even though I was certified. I was dealing with the guests and them not being used to seeing a black woman on the floor. Yeah. It's the whole imposter syndrome thing too. Oh my god. And so they, you know, they they were not shy or at all about me not wanting me on it at their table. They would send me away. They were not shy about, you know, the, aggressions of, you know, the the racist comments, the, you know, cool aid comments? Do what do black people know about why? Do you like the style? It's just, like, that's just shocking. It's, I mean, I know that it's true. And, you know, it's it's not it's not something that we haven't all heard and read about and talked about for the past few years, but it's just shocking to hear it come out of your mouth Yeah. That that was going on, you know, ten years ago. Yeah. No. And it's I think that the thing for me was I wasn't protected. Right? When you get into these corporations, they're protecting the guests more than they're protecting their employees. And Sure. They're they're protecting their bottom line. Let's be honest here. Right. They're protecting their their coins. And so for me, at some point, I just got tired of it. Like, I will say that working at the same region and that being my first home job was incredible. Incredible experience the the person who was, you know, mentoring me at the time, I learned so much. I tasted probably almost every single expensive wine in the world. Like, you know, we had a crazy wine list I had to learn, you know, on my feet. They you had to be exceptional, you know, and then I had the extra layer of, again, always being questioned and having to be exceptional So I didn't have room to fail. I have room to, you know, make mistakes and all the rest of that stuff. And I had an incredible learning experience. Who mentored you Tahira? Who mentored you and lifted you up and supported you? Well, at the time, the the beverage director's name is Sebastian Verier. He's a very sweet man. He's very French. But, you know, he's he's pretty well known in Miami, and he's he's a very kind guy for sure. And he taught me A lot of what I know about life, particularly fine wines and vintage wines and all of that stuff. And I and that was just incredible whether it was intentional or not intentional, you know, just being in that environment and being able to watch him work And, you know, he is the person that interviewed me and and basically gave me my first job because if he had said no, then I wouldn't have had that job. So I'm always grateful for that. But there's there there are also those moments in which no one was protecting me either. And no one was taking serious what I was going through on a regular basis. Like, not my mental safety was just being destroyed on a regular all the time. And on top of that, I didn't have anybody who I could talk to. I have anybody who looked like me who understood what I was going through. I didn't have anyone who, who would, you know, take up from stand up for me or any of that kind of stuff and I was just consistently being pulled apart and not and, you know, whether it was a guest or the system or whatever. And so on the one hand, it's like, oh, you know, you you should be incredibly grateful that you have this opportunity. It's really great job. It's very high end luxury. And repotel. And on the other end, it's like, they are you're losing little parts of your humanity bit by bit by bit by bit every single day you go in. I think this is something that the wine world really still has to get its head around because it's better now, but, I think our industry is incredibly competitive, incredibly blind to the challenges of being surrounded by alcohol all the time. Having to always be the best competing with everyone in the room around you. And, you know, there isn't a lot of support. Thank god. You know, we now have things like Queue Society and and other things because you're right. It it's an industry that is not hugely aware of the mental health pressure that people in the industry face. So, you know, you started Hugh Society in two thousand and eighteen, and your whole aim was to counter the lack of diversity and and the lack of support that you saw when you were a song. So I love the JZ lyric that inspired the name. You know, what's better than one billionaire too, especially if they're they're the same hue as you. I love that. I think many, many, many, bipOC and LGBTQ plus and other underrepresented people, you know, experience this kind of just a complete black hole in the wine world, you know, being in a room, seeing no one who looks like you, no one who represents your values, nobody who you can talk to and and and get some support from. So talk talk us through the creative process that brought Hugh Society to life because obviously you saw the need. When did you think it up? Who who helped you out? Who were your go to people at the beginning of Hugh Society? Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp. For fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond. Meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. So Hugh society was born out of something else. So in two thousand fifteen, when I decided to stop being more, I had decided I was going to become an entrepreneur, and I was going to start doing community building. And so my first organization was called Sipping socials. And the point of it was to make sure that I was able to, create wide events that cater to cultural awareness, right, because we didn't see ourselves. And I knew that was the reason why we weren't participate Right? I knew that if we were able to maybe learn and engage through our own lens, through our own cultural lenses, through food, through music, through art, through fashion, and be ourselves, we would be more into it. And so I I started sipping socials in Miami, and I was throwing events. I was doing wine events. I did this event called the Wine Rayquet Festival. Three thousand people showed up. And I was like, oh my god. So it works. And then, you know, I started doing more events, and that's when I realized, like, oh, I actually, like, this is actually the key. When I understood that that worked, I was moving out of Miami to Atlanta. And I said, okay. It's time to expand. I wanna create a hub, a society where everybody can kind of we can find each other. We are kinda creating, like, a mental safety net of what it looks like. We might not be able get out of these jobs, we will have somewhere where we could go and call home. And so, yes, that's where hue society was born from. I want to create a whole society and eventually, you know, turn that into chapters and communities and all those other things. But what I started with which is visuals. I knew we needed to see each other, and I knew we needed to see what it looked like. Right. So I started with the visuals of what that could, look like and I started the Instagram page. And I was just putting things up there of us just completely authentic. Completely authentic. Like, visuals you've never thought or seen before, and then people were just attracted to it. And then other groups started coming in. And now you're seeing, like, oh, this person's in a white industry, this person in a white industry, this people been in a white industry, twenty, thirty, forty years, did other black and brown people didn't even know about or indigenous people. Like, and then the community started coming together. And then then I started doing the festival. Right? I started doing festival lessons because I'm like, okay. Well, we we're getting the people, but where are the brands? I'll never forget the first time I got featured in a, Magazine, not essential. The first time I got featured in a magazine, I was the top five, you know, Psalms in South Florida. I didn't believe it was sure. I said, but they they're just rare to be big in people. Right? And it wasn't a black thing. It wasn't a white thing. It was just, like, women. And so I was like, well, they're not picking because I'm black. So alright. And then the the next time I was in Miami magazine. And at this point, I was like, I wanna I wanna I want some black wines to be in the photo. I never see that. And at the time, there were not a lot of, like, black brands. So, you know, there was with bride sisters, and there was Andre Mac with, who time you are. Yeah. Phil, Phil long, people like that. Yep. Yeah. And, but I didn't know about them. In Miami, they hadn't reached there yet. So in Miami, it was just those two at that time. And so, I'll never forget how terrified I was to request this wine to be in this photo shoot. I thought they won't cancel the whole thing. Like, that's how, like, you just couldn't talk about stuff like that. And I was like, I'm a do it anyway. And if they cancel it, they cancel it. But, you know, sure enough, I was in this in in this magazine and, you know, I had a whole photo shoot and I used, Andre Max, love drunk, Rose. Oh, I love that one, actually. Yeah. And, like, that was like, okay. Another catalyst, like, okay, we got the people. Let's bring in the brands. So I started hard amplifying black brands. Nobody at the time will even mention black brands. Like, now it's a thing, and I think it's beautiful. You know, everybody kind of does it. Yeah. No one was was talking about black brands. It was taboo. It was like, oh, you know, they're all they're they're low quality. They're all sugar. They're blah blah. Like, there was this whole thing around it. And I was out here in the streets, like, peddling them. Like, did you try this? Like, you know, every event that I would do, I made sure from from two thousand fifteen in every event or something that I show up to, at least one black brand has to be there. That's incredible. That yeah. And that that, as you said, that was really not easy to do in two thousand and fifteen. I mean, I remember when your Instagram came out, I remember, you know, being really captivated by it because you know, let's face it. I'm in Italy, you know, the sort of old white men central, very patriarchal here. So I I was so excited about what you were doing. And, you know, you've you've grown it into this fantastic vibrant community you have made, you know, that whole sort of deliberate effort to bring black brands to the forefront to make sure that they're, you know, getting exposure you know, along with creating this whole sense of community, you made it about business too. It wasn't just about, you know, mental health and support. It was actually about business and being an entrepreneur. And you've created this huge vibrant community for black line professionals no matter what they're doing in an industry, you know, producers, journalists, educators, everybody. You got this giant diverse following now. Did you ever think it would take off like this You know, you're you're providing mentorship and events and networking and education, and you have changed the industry. You definitely changed, especially in the US. You know, so we're what are you what are you doing next in the US? Because what you've accomplished in such a short time has been huge. And as you said, you know, other communities have come in. You've encouraged other people to get involved. It it's it has really become something super big. Did you expect that? No. No. I mean, I I did it. I, you know, because it was a the intention was, like, never about notoriety. It was purely, and it it still is. It's just about humanity. And now it's just like, there's no humanity in this. Right? Just as a basic baseline, there's just no humanity in what's going on here. Like, you want me to change everything about myself except for the couple things that you like just so I can enjoy a glass of wine. Yeah. There's not there is not a lot of room for for people. I I'm I'm an educator and I complain all the time that language keeps people out, and it makes me furious language keeps people out. And I, you know, as you said, there was no humanity. I also feel like the, you know, this very, very formal language just scares people. It's unnecessary. So you it's about humanity. You're right. The wine is one of the oldest beverages in the world. We should be sharing it. We shouldn't be scared of it. It's, yeah, it's incredible. Mine is about memories. Like, wine is about memories. It shouldn't be about you know, what I have on or how I talk, and I should be able to order wine and tell you this reminds me of when I was little, and I used to sit on my porch and and eat this. Or, you know, when I used to go to church with my grandmother, and I would go in the bottom of her bag and get, like, the peppermints. I should be able to say that from a cultural perspective, and it's okay. Yeah. It's just as valid as a gooseberry. Yeah. Hi. And talking about, I had a gooseberry. I never had a gooseberry prior to you know, intentionally going to seek one out because everybody kept saying it. I didn't wanna lie about it. Yeah. Yeah. And this is this is why I love so much what you've done because you kinda kicked down all the doors and and let people come in and feel included. They, you know, this rigid system is just not for everybody, and it shouldn't be. So I'm excited because I'm gonna ask you about the new venture, you know, as as I've alluded to. I'm in Italy. You're in Atlanta. So I'm in old worldwide, lots of lots of charming, old white men here. We've had a hard enough time trying to get women into the industry here, but now you wanna start hue society in Italy. And I am really excited about this. We're we're on the Italian wine podcast. So, you know, let's talk a bit about your plans for Italy. You know, bringing US members over here and then getting local membership growing. What made you wanna start with Italy? We actually started with South Africa. Easier. It it I wish it was easier. It sounded easier, but, you know, apartheid is is a is a is a mother effort. But I tell you, right? Yeah. It's not gone. People who think it's gone are completely wrong. It's yeah. And then, you know, so we started with South Africa. It was our first international chapter. And then Italy was just always curious to me because it's it's like you see all of these black Italians, but you never hear about them in the industry. And then if you do, it's always fun, like, a worker, farm worker kind of thing, and it's nothing wrong, you know, being agricultural work or any of those kinds of things. But I'm like, I'm sure there's that, like, people are going to university and, you know, getting these educations, but, like, I never see them in the forefront of anything. You're absolutely right. And, you know, as I said, I'm an educator. So you know, I see people of color in Italy in my classes, but they always look uncomfortable. I I literally feel it is my job, first of all, to make everyone in my class feel comfortable before I even crack the book. So Yeah. You're right. You never see black or brown faces, you know, in the as you say, in the forefront, in the important jobs, you know, in the sort of the flashy sexy jobs. Yeah. You know, we you know, it's it's back to that we're we're only used for our our manual labor kind of stuff. And and I just feel like, okay. Well, let's figure this part out. Like, even if it's just giving people the mental stability to understand that you can be something more. And, you know, and together, you're a lot more powerful than than apart. And there are probably more people interested in seeing the development of what this could look like than than not And I mean, from a black and brown perspective, like, I I I am not gonna address, like, the systems, systems or systems. Right? All you could do with systems is dismantle. But the way to do that is collectively. And so I haven't seen any collective push in Italy to try to create something that is equitable for people. That gives people space and resources to to build a career that they are probably longing for. I haven't seen that. So, you know, I had a couple people reach out to me on LinkedIn because of my work. And I'm being honest. I didn't I didn't know that my work reached that far. I'm I'm very serious about this. So you're like, did you go with the impact? I'm like, no. I because I just don't think about it like that. And so when people reach out to me, they're like, oh, you know, can you come and do this or we really need your help? And I'm I'm just like, oh, okay. I didn't even know that you knew who I was, but let me see if I could figure this out. My friend Hugh Society is bigger than you think it is, honestly. I guess so. I, you know, but I I just really I felt really compelled to to figure this out. And, you know, for a few months, we've been working on this. And they're they're being a lot of hiccups and barriers and people try to block and you know, you try to create, a space and people don't like change. They don't even like the idea of change. And I think once you get used to it, it's different, but the initial idea, the thought of, like, you changing something? Because they think that you're trying to take their power. Right? There's this insecurity that if you redistribute power that you're gonna lose yours, and that's not true. And I can tell you that from a personal standpoint, the redistribution of power and resources does not take anything away from you at all. And often can can lift you up, right, you know, quite frankly, you can learn, you can grow, you can be better than you were before when you thought you were more powerful. And, actually, your power can grow just by being more open to new things. So I completely agree with you, and we are very excited about you coming in twenty twenty four and and getting used society off the ground in Italy. We're gonna do everything we can to support you with that. But I I wanna talk about a couple of other things before I let you have your day back to yourself. I have a I've got a favorite quote from you talking about your daughter You said she learned how to swirl when she was two, and she loves holding wine glasses, and she loves swirling them. And your favorite thing about watching her do that is that it's it's so natural to her. You didn't get to grow up with wine, but for her, it's a natural organic thing, and it's really incredible to witness her. And I had similar things with my daughters. I didn't grow up with wine either, and they were swirling their milk at dinner when they were little because that They thought that's just what everybody did, but, all of our daughters now can find wine really accessible because they've always seen it through us. So, you know, how can we make this happen for more young people, you know, more women, more people of color. How can we kick open these doors even farther and make them feel welcome, make them feel like it's an organic place for them to be? I I believe that we have to normalize what's normal to us. Right? Like, right now, this wine thing is normal to us and the more you normalize it. And and by that, I don't just mean, like, the beverage. I mean, the normalize your language in the wine states. Normalize who you are and how you show up in the wide space. Right? Because one thing I never want my daughter to see me doing is pretending to be somebody else to be accepted. And I think it's so important that we start normalizing and accepting and understanding, like, there's not one way to do something. And, people have brilliant minds that do not look like you. And the more we're able to accept what that is and and be open to the idea that, hey, I don't have to talk about gooseberries. Let's I wouldn't know what what you what did you grow up with? You know, like, we're forced to learn this, but can we normalize what somebody else grew up, you know, drinking? Or he didn't Yeah. And exalted, you know, everybody's experience is valuable. The other thing you were instrumental in launching, you know, sort of along these lines was Route Foundation with Kyle McCoy and Ikimi Duwas. So you were providing scholarships and job placements in the wine industry. And to be honest, you know, this is this is, you know, putting your money where your mouth is because it's okay to build a community and get people in, but if you can't pay them, educate them, you're not gonna get far. So, you know, you said you want Queue Society and Ruth Foundation to become the number one wine community in the world and then create impactful events and be a conduit of change, you know, that we've talked about so much. So overall, what's what's the strategy? How are we going to get this money into the right hands? Get people with scholarships get people with jobs in the industry that we, you know, as you said, they're longing for. I thought that was a really emotional word to use because you're right about that. What's your vision for for this side of the coin? You know, getting getting people to you know, open up the doors, give people jobs, give people scholarships, you know, we can make them fall in love with wine, but we need to put money into this. What's the strategy? I think, you know, holding people accountable. Who were the powers that be? Who were the decision makers? How are we getting to those people? Because that's that's where it starts. And I also think that social proof is really important. And so when we get people who are in high positions that are in alignment with us, that are you know, actually putting their money where their mouth is and not just talking about it or or at bottom levels, putting people of color in for in front facing positions to create a facade but at the top level, the decision makers all still look the same. That's what I focus on. I see with the bottom level. Snush. Yeah. That's so true. Not not tokenism. We need we need diversity all the way through the industry. And you need to hold people accountable. Like, you know, they they have to start holding people to the fire or putting people to the fire or whatever. You know, it it sounds negative, but it's the truth on some level. It's just like, you gotta apply pressure sometimes. And the thing is I've never and I've never been afraid to apply pressure or to, you know, be very vocal and honest about what's going on. And I I'll tell you, like, hey, because I don't believe that they're, No one owns me. I don't owe anybody anything, so I don't feel that that pressure to to be silent about issues or things that I see that are wrong or that are happening in the world or in in the wine world or or wherever because at the end of the day, I'm always gonna try and do what's right and what's best for the the greater, you know, community. And so Yeah. You're right. You know, what you said about it's not negative, you know, this you know, needing to be loud and and needing to hold people accountable. It's not negative. There are a lot of decision makers out there who are really great people, and they're just not aware of, you know, their sort of their mental process is, you know, biased. They aren't even aware of it. So, you know, holding them accountable, educating them, making them see is gonna make a difference. I completely agree with you there. I know that, you know, just just this year, you won wine enthusiasts wine star award for visionary of the year. You know? So you're an advocate of the year from Vinepear magazine, and you're on the board of James Beard Awards. So you are becoming one of these people with power. So you're becoming one of these decision makers in a front facing role. As I said, with a far bigger reach than you think you have, I can promise you that. So, you know, you've got these roles coming to you now. You've earned them. You've got them in your hands. You know, promoting diversity and hospitality industry. And can you leverage your perspective? You know, how are you going to use your power to to do these things? Because it's not easy. And you you are the person who's going to be leading the charge. I think that I really think that. I, you know, I I believe in equity, and I think that people have to learn a difference between equity and equality. That is so true. I'm not afraid to sacrifice or say no to things, you know, if it's right, if it's if it's the right thing to do, and I'm gonna make sure that, you know, we're we're changing the room. I'm not afraid to lose things in order to make that happen. You know, some people are afraid to walk away from jobs or positions or, money in particular if it's out of alignment. I'm if it's not in alignment with my goals and equitable, situations or all those kinds of things. I walk away from it. The answer is no. And that and I think that, you know, I'm kinda building that reputation in the sense of, like, I'm okay with those sacrifices. And I think that as a leader, you have to be willing to to do that if you're going to stay in tune with where you're trying to go and making sure that you are leading your community to a a better place and and leaving every space better than which you came into it. It's brave and risky, both. Oh, for sure. It's terrifying. I won't pretend like, you know, I think that you can be brave and be terrified at the same time. I think they go hand in hand, actually. It's it's completely terrifying because, you know, this is also my livelihood, and I have a child, and I have a family, and all those things. And so me doing these things is not easy. It's not the the the glory or any of the rest that stuff. Like, I've lost out on a lot of things because I say no when I know that you're trying to use me or get me to validate or using my likeness to validate whatever's going on. And I and I know that what you're actually doing is not equitable and it's not going to help anybody but you or your business or, you know, whatever that looks like. And so I just I try to say off as authentic as possible and, you know, normalize what that looks like you know, you're going to see my big earrings, you're going to see my braids, you're going to see all of these things, and those are just powerful decisions in itself because a lot of people are not able to show up as themselves. And I try to encourage that as much as possible. Because, again, the more we normalize our basic humanity, in our joy, the more the the systems start to change because they don't have a choice. Well, I think there is no way I'm gonna get anything more impactful out of you than that. So I'm gonna leave it there, and I'm gonna tell you right now that I am really looking forward to seeing you authentically show up in Italy because I know that we're gonna do some good work, and I know that you are going to be a great power for change with you society here. So thank you so so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. It was great talking to you, and I will see you in twenty twenty four. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to this and and the challenge. And, you know, and and the fruitfulness that shall be gained from, these new experiences. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at italian wine podcast dot com SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.