Ep. 1874 Daria Kholodilina | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian Great Peak podcast. Join us as we explore personal stories of travel and tasting with Italy's must know grape varietals. Chart your own course with my Italian Greg beef journal, your personal tasting companion to accompany the series available now on Amazon with thanks to Clangelo and partners for their generous support with this project. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so happy to welcome Daria Holidayina to voices. Daria was born in Ukraine and moved to Georgia in two thousand and thirteen to follow her passion for all things, Georgia. She's a wine tourism specialist, and she's the winner of the IWSE emerging talent award for two thousand and twenty four. So congratulations, first of all, and thank you so much for coming on the show. Today, Daria, it's a holiday weekend here in Italy. And I'm really glad to have your time. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Hello, everybody. Gamar Joba. I love this. I'm gonna have to learn Georgian. I'm such a Georgian wine fan. We'll get to that later. So first of all, let's talk about what made you fall in love with Georgia. You were born in Ukraine, but you moved to Georgia in two thousand and thirteen. What drew you to the country? What's so special for you about Georgia? Well, everybody, I think, like, many people say that, but it's actually people because I was, studying in Germany, and I made my first Georgian friends there. So I thought about making an vacation in Georgia, and I arrived, and they took such a great care of me, and were so nice. And, of course, the country was beautiful. Of course, there were, like, it into seven twelve when I was here for the first time, it was not so developed tourism wise, but it was just amazing to visit. It was, I don't know, very exciting for me. And then I thought that would come next year as well. And then, I I did. And eventually I ended up taking my big red suitcase and moving here just because I felt welcome. I felt, supported and well fed eventually, you know, and George is very famous for its hospitality. They feed you till you pass out almost. And, yeah, well, I decided to spend the winter here because the climate is also slightly milder here than in Ukraine or Germany. And, well, it it le almost eleven years past. And, still here, and the climate is still mild, and wine is still good, and life is amazing. I completely understand. That's exactly how I feel about Italy. I moved to Italy fifteen years ago, and I've never left. I've it's the same. When you find those people who are your people, and the food, who's your food, and the wine, who is your wine, it's just perfect. So I'm so happy for you that you found your place sooner than I did. I I wish I'd found Italy sooner. So you you first started working out with the Georgia National tourism, strategy doing marketing and promotion there. So what took you into wine from that? You know, you moved there for the people, you fell in love, you got fed, which is always very important, and doing a lot of tourism work in marketing. So what what took you into the wine world? How did you get there? Well, I had a blog. Now I don't have it anymore, unfortunately, but, well, when you have an office job, even such a responsible one, you still have a lot of free time because it's not, like, working for yourself. So, I just wrote about my life in Georgia in English because there was a niche. Like, there were a lot of blogs in quite a lot of blogs in Russian about, Georgia, but there wasn't almost nothing in English. So I started just as a online diary, it was the pre TikTok era. Almost like after Diana's hours, you know, like so it it was a long time ago when you could just, like, go out and write without any strategy or see or considerations. And, yeah, and it it attracted attention of, some people and among them was a wine writer from, well, he's originally from California, but he lives in Priorat in Spain, and, he liked my, articles rather about food places and, of course, about some wineries, but, to be honest, was traveling on weekends by myself because I just wanted to explore the country. And all all this, like, winemakers and wineries that I was meeting and seeing, they also the the same story Like, people were welcome, welcoming, and the, wine was very interesting. I didn't figure out how different it was in the beginning because, they were probably not enough means to communicate it because they were saying, yeah, it's just the Georgia way of doing things that you're like, yeah. Why does it taste different? It was very interesting, to figure it out later, and there were no, wine courses in English back then in Georgia. So I had to just because like I said, I had to figure out a lot of things by myself, and then I met Miguel. And together, basically, we've like, we ended up working on the book together, because well, he he offered that he released nine books about different wine regions before, but for Georgia, he felt like he needed some, local, perspective, and we ended up writing a book together. But Well, let's talk about this book because this is not just any old book. This is a great book. It was it was two thousand and seventeen, and you coauthored it with Mikhail, a book called Georgia, a guide to the cradle of wine, and you won the Jeffrey Roberts Award, as well as a lot of acclaim from some very famous people, including Janice Robinson. So tell us about the book. You know, Mikhail needed help, you said. Why was it so important to get an English language book about Georgia wine out there into the world? Well, first of all, the main market for Georgia as a post Soviet country was post Soviet world. So Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan, and so on. And, after the Russian embargo, the, winemakers realized that, the quality of the product that was fine for Russia didn't work out for Europe and other markets. So they started finding their ways in, like, changing the, not the techniques, but yet changing quality, working on improving the quality. And also, the national wine agency had to work on changing the narratives about George and wine how plus this, discovery of the oldest, wine artifacts. So, you know, the, peeps of cultivated grapes that are eight thousand years old and also remnants of pottery with the wine leftovers, that proved that Georgia is a cradle of wine, at least, as as we know now. Very much so. Absolutely. Yeah. It was also found in that time. So, of course, there were things to talk about. And, yeah, and I think, like, there was a need for English language book precisely because there were not many ones around in general, and, the information was not really structured. And, of course, there was this project of National Tour Administration. Wine routes, so the sellers, started getting, marked on the, like, on the map and physically. So once you drive through a wine reach, deliver through any region, you can see, like, signs that show you that there is a winery over there. But again, it was not really structured. So, I I wrote the brochure about, like, of this project with the winery's descriptions and so on. Because it was also essential to communicate it to wine curious travelers, tourists. Yeah, because it's like a lot of new markets started opening for Georgia and all of those markets spoke English. More or less. Very much so. Very much so. It really took off, hugely, Georgia became such a point of interest for for wine people and for people who are, you know, travelers and and looking for new places to discover, don't wanna hang out in the the typical touristy places. So, you know, it it grew and grew and grew from that book. In twenty nineteen, you've cofounded trails and wines, which is your bespoke tour provider in Georgia, you know, also a big award winner, not only for tourism, but also for entrepreneurship. So, you know, going from the book, what gave you the idea for trails and wines? How did you raise the money? Because, you know, let's face it here. You're a young woman. There's not a lot of young women entrepreneurs in Georgia at the moment. Although the numbers are growing, I talked to a lot of young women in Georgia in wine now. How did you get started with train trails and wines? Tell us what you're doing there these days. Well, so in twenty nineteen, well, almost by two thousand nineteen, both me and my husband who was my colleague. At, the tourism board, we both quit at our job because we wanted to grow and we wanted to do something, like, on the grassroots level and not only to sit and in the office and kind of do some global, more or less like global projects, but, we also felt like we are losing the touch with real tourism, like, with real work. And so he's a trail and hiking enthusiast, and, I I was already, like, but in two thousand nineteen, I also got WC had certified. I finished some Georgia wine courses in Georgia already. So I felt confident enough to go out and spread the knowledge. So, basically, the major costs were related with just establishing the, like, making the website and just sustain in ourselves because it was basically a two two people's affair in the beginning, just to sustain us, ourselves as a family before the money would actually come, the cash flow would actually come. But two thousand eighteen and nineteen were so successful in terms of tourism. So there were a lot of people wanting to visit and come in and actually needing a tour operator. And, basically, we had very successful years. And I think we were one of the first in Georgia just to, concentrate on certain topics and not to do everything, like all the possible tours at once as many do. And that's why I guess we got those awards because we were really concentrating on very niche, first, like, on very niche products. And we also supported small businesses. So we are members of ecotourism Association, which, is a great network here. And we want to support also, like, small businesses and give them a chance to, meet people from all around the world, the wine enthusiast and hiking enthusiast. So I think all of that gave us some exposure locally. As well. And, well, during COVID, there was, of course, the break. And at the moment, well, I'm alone in the business now. So, of course, we have guides and drivers, like service providers. So I'm in the operational partner. But, My husband switched to to the other business because we had two waves of COVID and then, war in Ukraine, like, full scale were influenced us a lot. Now, because the European clients didn't want to kind of approach this part of the world somehow out of, you know, concerns, safety concerns. Also, last year, another war like Israel Gaza war also influenced our clientele a lot. So we've got a lot of cancellations of the tours, and we decided that geopolitics is kind of something that we cannot really influence, but that influences us a lot as a family and as a business. So we decided that we will run different, like, businesses so that at least if one is not working, then the other one will work. And if two work, then we are in a very good place. And here we are. Yeah. So it's like eggs in different baskets. Very yeah. Like, it it this strategy pays off, actually. But now we have bookings from, like, from April to October, like, from check republic and New Zealand and England, and, the United States and Germany, so from from many countries. And mostly all of them are actually wine tours because now it's kind of my magnets that is working better. Of course, we can still provide high quality hiking tours, but with my husband being, kind of spending his energy elsewhere, it's, like, not as active. This direction is not as active anymore. But this is life. And I guess also nowadays, yeah, nowadays also, like, not many people, not as many people as before need a classical tour operator. After COVID, they started attending travel fairs again, and they had a feeling, a special at ITP Berlin where Georgia was past country. A lot of tour operators actually complained about lack of activity, but I saw the whole, like, a lot of holes of the exhibition grounds being full of different digital products So I think this is the future. So we'll think how to provide, like, help people find the, good wineries. But probably they don't need me as a tour operator as like, intermediary, then maybe they can book services through a smaller fee. I will I will think about it, like how not to invent a wheel or a tripadvisor once again, but to, you know, to stay in the business. Well, it's so interesting. And I think, you know, your your youth and your enthusiasm and and your newness to the sector really helped you because, you know, why war and geopolitics are affecting the wine industry in ways that we don't even really realize I teach a lot of students at various levels, you know, university students all the way up to diplomatic clients. And, you know, logistics and just being able to get wine from point a to point b, things like that. People who don't want to travel to certain countries or certain regions, it's affecting our industry far more than anyone gives it, credit for. So I think you're very wise to have already put your finger on that and expanded, but I know, you know, the pandemic also, you did not slow down during the pandemic just because we were shut down and you were shut down twice. We were also shut down in Italy twice. You transitioned to online, and you started a YouTube channel called Drink Georgian, So you were doing a lot online, you know, are you still active on YouTube now? What are you doing online now? You know, you said you you understand that people aren't always looking for a traditional tour operator. A lot of people are happy to make their own plans, but they just want some guidance. So how are you using your YouTube channel in your online business now? To be honest, the YouTube channel is not very active at the moment because I realize it also it's like a separate job, basically, if you want, if you want to make it seriously. So I have, I relaunched my Instagram now. So it was working for ten years, and then I realized a lot of people sign up signed up before the pandemic and before I had a child. So when I had a lot of travel information there, when I was traveling every week myself, and I was updating it. Like, it was basically travel oriented, like, travel in Georgia oriented. Then I realized that, when I started writing more about wine, which is my main focus, people didn't react anymore. So or maybe they were scrolling without paying attention because it was not their topic. They were there for traveling. They were there for different topics like eating in Belicia. And I was there with my wine knowledge and, I don't know, two months old baby, and I just couldn't go out and, you know, do the things they did before. So after one year and a half in this regime, I thought that I would just launch a separate account about wine that is called Dietico drinks wine. Basically, it explains what I do. And, it's Now I have, more than a thousand followers. But, you know, for wine account, it's very, it's not so easy to get really viral. And if you're viral, probably you need you need to do memes or, like, you know, things like that, but I want to deliver quality and about Georgia wine. So it grows, slowly, but really steadily. So I have new people every day and people are active and responsive. And, I mean, I like it a lot. I like what's comes out. And of course, I do quite a lot of reels because reels are now the format, like the hot format, for the platform, and it's shorter than YouTube needs less editing, and you need to squeeze all the precise information into one minute and a half which is also mobilizes you and makes you, kind of, squeeze out all the necessary information and put it out online. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp. For fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. Well, I'm so happy to hear this because I'm much older than you, and I I feel the same. I'm my Instagram is where I am. I I don't do Facebook anymore, YouTube, or TikTok, or any of that. It takes up too much time. I understand about having a two month old baby, I had six children back in the day. So you have to focus your attention. I just wonder with your Instagram, which is great, by the way, everyone should have a look at it. How have the Georgia wine producers reacted? Have you gotten producers on board? Are they coming to you to get you to promote them? You know, are you able to, you know, use your social media credentials. You're very good at what you're doing. I wonder how the producers are reacting. Oh, the producers. Oh, my co my sellers, so I have a, like, my wine collection in the basement of my house. And I also have another room in the house that used to be something like a cupboard, but now it's full of wine. And, like, today, I came from Kahetiv from this February opening. So it means that we just got new wine, and it was born, and it's amazing, and with with another eight bottles from the producer. And because he wants me to taste some of those that I didn't some of the vintages that I didn't taste from him, and there are many of others. So sometimes I just don't have, I mean, I spend the whole day tasting wines and then recorded videos about those that I liked. So one of, like, at least one day a week, I dedicate to that. To this kind of content. And of course, my family is a bit upset when I don't give them a lot of things to drink because it's for future. It's for aging. Let's see how it develops and, like, all these nerdy things. But I, yeah, I do get a lot of wine samples, and I don't charge the wineries for that because I think it's kind of I need to give a chance and feedback to everybody. But I do generate some money because then some people want wine tours or some people want to training for their stuff here in Belisi or people want to have a, customized wine tasting once they're in Belisi or they live in Belisi and want to learn more about Georgian wine and they want a proper class, like, five hours of, tasting and talking and make a note. So I do generate some money from that. Not such a huge scale, but, I mean, it's only the beginning. So I'm very positive. It's only the beginning. That those are the most beautiful words But I think you're smart because I I'm the same. I I never, charge winery's money because it it allows you to be independent. You never have to say you like something if you don't like it. And I think being, you know, keeping your integrity is very important. If you want people to trust you and want them to believe what you're writing, it's important to have that distance from the producers. They all want your attention, but you're not being paid by them. And it allows you to to stay authentic and stay independent. So, yeah, it's not the best for the bank account, but as you said, it's only the beginning. And, clearly, they do trust you. They're filling up your wine cellar, which is great news. I know I have to divide my wine cellar, the part that I allow my grown up children to drink in the part that is not for them to drink. So, the ones I wanna age have to be hidden. I I understand, but let me ask you, you know, what do you think are the three characteristics that make George and Wine so unique in the world? And how do you promote those characteristics? You said you were at a at a Quevary opening for people who don't know what a Quevary is. It's, Amphorez, you know, this is amphores are leading the way now in a lot of winemaking, a different kind of oxygenation, very different wine style. So for you, what are the three characteristics that make George and wine so special? Well, I think it's it's, it's a complex of, things. Well, first of all, this story is really attractive to wine gigs. The story about eight thousand, years of wine making history. And while, in some ways, Georgia is still quite, I mean, not modern. Let's put it like that or, like, not conserved. I don't want to use the word conservative because it's not, but I always say kind of wild west. Exactly. Yeah. Something like it's a developing market, so sometimes people don't find their way. So things there are a lot of winemakers that just kind of garage winemakers or, like, very enthusiasts, so they are not trained and they make wine. But this is exactly what Georgia is about in a way because that's how this eight thousand years went. That's how, the Soviet industrialization and many other things, like, for example, hunger when people like, there were beds years, of course, in the, like, eighteenth and nineteenth century, and sometimes people had to and in the nineties, of the twentieth century as well when people had to, replace vineyards with other crops that would feed the families. But still, the swine making tradition, it it survived because people wanted to make wine themselves. They wanted to have wine in the family. And even if it meant a very small amount of production, it was still there. So this, connection between Georgia people and making wine on this grassroots level. This is very interesting. But of course, from the, like, organoleptic perspective, from the kind of physical pers perspective, it's, of course, the skin contact white wines, that, of course, are not that that are exotic, that are ancient, that taste probably some of them, like, they used to taste two hundred years, three hundred years, eight thousand years ago. But, yeah, Gregory, of course, as the vessel that is constantly used by georgian people that is, like, didn't have any breaks. So to say during the centuries of usage, so it was always not in the fashion. It was just there. All the time. So this clay jar that we actually bury under the ground. So, now, of course, more people use it above the ground. For example, I know about Quevarys in Canada. Like, there was a winemaker who took Quevarys to Canada And in Canada, you are not allowed to bury clevaries to bury anything like wine vessels under the ground because of some law that land is belongs to the government and like a lot of details, but people use clevaries also above the ground, especially in such a cold climate as Canada. I think it's fine. Absolutely. They use them here in Italy too. I live in Valpolicella, and people are making Amarona in in Quevary now above the ground. It's interesting. Yeah. So but in Georgia, traditionally, we burrow them under the ground so that the temperature would not depend on the temperature outside, especially when it's, you know, when it's not controlled, climatically controlled, space, like seller or, like, workspace. So yeah. The micro oxygenation is there, but I think it's also the skin contact style. So when you make white wine, as you make red, so you leave skins there for longer maceration, So this style is also finding its ways, especially I think in Asia, like Japan and Korea, like this kind of wine a lot. Also, the natural wine fence in, western Europe in in the United States, but also I had a feedback from my Japanese guest who said that, these wines are too clean somehow. So it's kind of even even though it's, like, it was natural. The winemaker, the wineries that I recommended, even though the wines were natural, they were, like, clean because co every shape allows the wine to, kind of, to clean better by itself, and they were shocked somehow. That's why I liked Georgian wine. They're not cloudy. They they are gravity, filtering. I like them for that reason. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah. So I think basically it's the story, the vessel and also the, well, the style. And also this, amount of grape varieties and endemic grape varieties that we have because we have more than five hundred. Like, there is a beautiful number, five hundred twenty five, and I counted them in their ampoleography, official ampoleography. It's really like that. Commercially around thirty five, forty five are used. Very similar to Italy, almost exactly the same. Yeah. Yeah. It it's still a lot still, interesting, still quite exotic to the world. And I think that this is also kind of very eye opening for the people who drink classical wine mostly. Absolutely. This is why I love George and wine. My only problem is I can never pronounce the name of the grapes, but we'll just forget about that. Yeah. It needs time. That's why I'm here. Well, let's talk about this award you just won because this is this award is still hot in your hands. It was only in February from the I WSC, so very, very prestigious. You won the award for twenty twenty four as an emerging talent in wine. Again, congratulations. This is a big deal. So congratulations on that, and you received, two point five thousand euro bursary for travel as part of this award. So I wanna know and I can guess already from our conversation. What are you gonna do with this bursary money? What travel have you got planned? What's coming up for you now? I planned two things at the moment. So the this award was sponsored by London Wine Fair, and they also gift give me the, VIP ticket and access to different master classes. So, obviously, I'm spending a part of the bursary on my London trip because I've never been in London. Wine is a big deal and I'm very curious. So this is definitely for my self development. And I will see if it it will be possible to make kind of an extra thing for Georgian wine there. So I will once I get my visa, you know, like in countries like Georgia, you still need Visa for nice countries like UK, so once I get my visa, I will plan something with the Georgian wine importers there. So I want to do something. Also, I thought to take some Georgian wines separately to represent them on any of the wine fairs that I planned, but seems like it's a bit too late because the National Wine agency already has the things, planned for the upcoming year. So by the time, yeah, I I realized that I got an award. It was already kind of preplanned. So I think I might still attend one of the wine events. I will not say it yet because I'm still working on it, in Germany because I know Germany really well, and I want to take some Georgian wine with me or collaborate with one of the producers and make a taste in there to, again, to raise awareness. And also if I will have enough time also with the small child, it's not always easy, but, I want to go. Yeah. I would like to also visit several wineries in Germany that, also kind of small scale, in order to gain more insights of how they work, from less popular regions, like, not like Moz or Rhingau, of you know, like less popular globally, like button probably. So I want to see how they do things and then kind of offer better consultations here for the Georgian winemakers. That's fantastic. What what what advice would you give to Georgia winemakers, in fact, you know, to get their wines, you know, noticed and imported to other countries? What should they be doing that they're not doing right now? What your in your consulting role, what would you say to George and wine producers? How to improve their profile? How to get their wines out there into the world better? First of all, like, do your market research. And see where your wines can be more demanded somehow because, I think, some winemakers, either have, like, quite pessimistic views, like, oh, well, like, it's not, probably, like, high spender markets are not for Georgian wine because Georgian wine is exotic. So we, or, like, whatever, or we make Batekins Maragulli for, like, Russia and Kazakhstan, so we better continue with tax. Or whatever, like, Casaake guests or Casaake importers are, buying, like, cases of wine. And then once, once the, Germans come, they buy not very much because they save money or because they are this and that. So I got this feedback from the winemakers also, like, from touristic point of view as a tour operator. So they while they are interested in European guests, they are, like, they always say that, oh, well, but Russians or, like, Gaza people, they buy more. Well, because they also allow to transport more than the Germans and so on. But, like, it's details. So, I would also, like, export wise. I would definitely recommend them to do the market research and see which markets are more open to something like skin contact wines, because, for example, entering or if they make skin contact wine and, like, quite a heavy profile wines, how, developed is this kind of gastronomic foodie segment in those markets, they they want to enter. Like, because, for example, entering the market of New Zealand that is, you know, like a Soviet and long country, it would be very difficult to enter it with an array of Amber wines. So, like, I think they they need to be very precise with where they want where they want to get to with their wines. And, of course, yeah, quality quality is the key, and also stability in a way, even a natural wine. I I mean, as an importer, I can imagine that they want the maximalist stable wines that will not recommend during the trip and so on. So I think it's very important. You know Yeah. And I think you put your finger on another important issue, which is a lot of Georgian wines really are gastronomic. They are meant to be drunk with food. They're not sort of, you know, a pre dinner drink. They're not an aperitivo wine. They really have that character that that cries out for some food. So understanding where they fit in the market is definitely crucial to success, and and such an interesting part of of everything you're doing because you are already in that gastronomic side of things before you got into wine. So I think you're very well placed to help these producers promote more than they are. So other question for you is what would you say to young women in Georgia who want to get involved in the Georgian wine business right now. Now what words of wisdom do you have for them? What what roles need to be filled by young, enthusiastic, ambitious, smart, Georgian women? Well, my first message is now is the time. Now is the best time to get engaged with Georgian wine because, it's still on the right in the way of hype globally. And this style is really demanded and this orange wine and clever wine and natural wine and ampoule wine. It's those are the terms that are getting googled more often and the interest is there. So I think, for for women I mean, of course, the winemaker role is interesting for many. Not everybody has a winery, so they can't all be winemakers. Sometimes it doesn't stop people. I've met recently a winemaking, a woman winemaker who started in her uncles backyard. And now she's exporting wine to London. So, you know, like, it's it's about persistent and really, like, it's her passion. She wanted to revive her father's vineyards and kind of keep the line, like, winemaking bloodline working because dad was not making wine. So, and the grandfather did, and she wanted to continue somehow. But I think also for young women, there is a lot of space in marketing and stuff, kind of, training and then quality training because, if we get more educated, like, also, yeah, in buying education, of course, because I think we do that nowadays. Even Georgians do not know sometimes the, like, the how, how how the wine is and where is the context of this wine? So I think, yeah, wine education, wine marketing, is always, something really important and also, stuff in the restaurants, needs to be better trained in order to better communicate and sell wine. So this is also another aspect that needs to be important that needs knowledgeable young people, and also of course young women. I love it whenever anybody says we need more wine education. I'm a wine educator, and I firmly believe in the power of education. So not only for people who wanna get into the industry, but people who are already in there need to understand foreign wine markets and other forms of winemaking and where their wine fits. So I'm really glad to hear that you are, you know, firmly on the side of advocating for education. I think that's great, and I hope that we can get scholarships and things into Georgia to help young people study wine. It's expensive. That's always a barrier. It's very expensive to take wine classes. So hopefully, that will be a movement of the future near future, I hope. So last question before I let you go, where do you see yourself in five years? You know, what will Daria be doing in in twenty thirty? You've got all this on your plate, you know, being called an emerging talent, I think, is a little, overwhelming because it means you have to now emerge and do something with your great talent. So what do you plan to do in the next five years? Where do you see yourself going? Actually, in Duane Education because I started collaborating with the wine school here, was the school I actually attended for WSN two and three. Hitsuriani wine Also, I I start there as the educator for the, Georgian, wine lover course. So it's like the course for those who just want to understand the basics of Georgian wine. And we also work on the some other courses about international wines for the Georgians again. And I think it's, well, that's what I want to do. Wine education online and offline. That's my bigger goal at the moment to develop this direction because also I want to have a second child. And I think, when education can be combined with this while, I mean, basically everything. It it it it really depends on every situation, I guess. But, I think it's the job I can do. It's a lot easier if you can be home more often. Exactly. And you can sit down and, you know, straight to accent. So but this is very important moment for women, who work in wine, how pregnant women are getting treated or, like, how high the job chances are and so on. And I think, yeah, I completely agree. And I I think it's also important for the wine industry to understand how, you know, women, when women take a break to have their children and to raise their children, it doesn't mean they've stopped learning and stopped growing. It there should be a way to be pregnant in the industry a way to be at home with your children and a way to come back into the industry when your children are at school. Because when my child was born, in two months, the exhibition season started. So we had four wine festivals and, like, several other events in Georgia where I used to be every year. And, like, sometimes it was the guests. Sometimes it was a wooden porter, sometimes, like, shooting videos. And I really wanted to be there, so I had to prepare the milk bank. And, my, my great husband was there. It was the baby when I was tasting wine the whole day. And I also had some guests that here, and Then we had women and wine expo here in Georgia. And I was guiding the wine journalists that were visiting it. And it was also it was not easy because then my husband and baby traveled with me like, not to the wineries, but they were on on on-site where the exhibition was taking place. And again, like, they had a huge milk bank, and I was there in the field. So, yeah, I mean, you have to find ways, and it's great to have support, but some women don't, and it it's really sad. No. Well, you sound so strong and so determined, and I'm glad you have such a great husband. I have a great husband too. So I think we're both fortunate in that. And I can't wait to see what you do in the next couple of years. I wish you so much luck with having another child and growing your family and growing the work that you're doing. It's so important for George and Wine, I think we all know that George and Wine is a big trend right now, and taking something from a trend to being something that's a permanent feature of fine wines is gonna be an interesting process. And I'm sure that you'll be part of that, Daria. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. That was lovely. And, I hope that, yeah, exactly soon, Georgian wine stops being will stop being exotic and will become just a part of regular wine menus of the bars and restaurants. So cheers to that. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.