Ep. 1925 Charlotte Gordon | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pots. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello. This is Cynthia Chaplin. Welcome to voices. Today, I am so delighted to welcome Charlotte Gordon to voices. Charlotte's been in the wine business for over ten years, and she was recently shortlisted for the I WSE twenty twenty four emerging talent in wine. She's currently the brand and business development manager at Moa, Tennessee in London. So Charlotte, thank you so so much for giving us your time today. I'm really pleased to talk to you. Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be recording my first ever podcast and absolutely thrilled those with you. So thank you so much. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize podcast version. Well, I I will be kind. Let's talk about you, not me. I'm boring. You are much more interesting. What what got you into wine? You know, I know that you you started working in restaurants when you were really young, as I think, you know, a lot of us did that. What spurred you into the world of wine? How did you get into what you're doing now? Yes. So you're you're absolutely right. So I I started back when I was fifteen years old as a waitress in an incredible, well, initiate as a pub, I guess then we called it Gastro pub, and then I that developed over time, was lucky enough to have a matching staff. So an incredible, I guess hospitality environment to, to have my first proper working job. And I was there until I worked once I moved to London, so until I worked nineteen. So the place was, like, home for me, my colleagues, my bosses were, like, family, like my mom and dad. There was chef in front of house, owners, and managers. So really they taught me everything they knew. And as part of that, obviously, came the one as well. So I don't come from the the typical, I guess, you know, one of the professionals in London are European farmer grammars than myself, Italian or French, Spanish and and have grown up with wine in their culture on their family table at home, and I didn't have any of that. So I guess the first time I was really exposed to wine was when I was fifteen at this at this restaurant or at the pub at the time, And, yeah, I was just very lucky that our our head chef was was really kind of clued up on on food and wine pairing. So we had tasting menus, which was also very rare for that part of the world in the southwest of England. And every day that the taste may change, the dishes change depending on what the shattered foraging, what what local produce was coming in. And every day he would call us to the pass, and we have a tasting with the food and then we'd open a lot of the wines and work out as a team kind of what paired best with the courses that they were producing. So, really, I was so privileged to to jump off the school bus at the age of fifteen, run straight into the pub put my uniform on, and then we're straight into into food and wine tasting before service. So that's really where it starts is. Yeah. And, of course, you can't do that anymore these days. All these all these preventative laws that keep people out of hospitality until they're too old to appreciate anymore. But, it's it's interesting that you have that, you know, the Southwest of England, I don't think a lot of our listeners will understand that, you know, England is a small place, but the Southwest of England is fairly remote. It's it's hard to get down there. Yeah. I used to live in Devon for a while. It's it's hard to get to. And when you're down there, it does seem like you're kind of in your own bubble. So the fact that you were exposed to wine at, you know, a really tender age with somebody who was nurturing and and mentoring is is amazing. So, you know, you ended up spending the past ten years really immersed in wine business, which is unusual, you know, when we look at the grand scheme of you know, young women in wine, that's not usually the path they choose. You went into majestic wine, which is an enormous, you know, huge chain of wine retailers throughout the UK. I still order wine sent to my children as gifts from from Majestic. And then you were at Hills prospect, and now you're at Moet hennessy. So what drew you into the business aspect of the wine sector? You know, most people fall in love with wine because it's romantic and it's delicious and blah blah. But wine business is very specific. What got you into that? Yeah. So I think, you know, I did my I did my time in in Devon, like I say, and and absolutely loved that. And then I kind of when I knew straight away, that was that was me hooked on wine. Was like, I wanna do this forever. This is the coolest job in the world. I can't believe people get paid to to taste and talk about this this amazing liquid. So definitely the romantic side was there, and I guess very present from an early age. And so I decided to move to London when I was nineteen to really focus on wine specifically. So I moved from the restaurant supervisor role that I'd built myself up to in Devon into a into a somnroll, a two michelin star restaurant in London. So everything changed. You know, it was it was it was very different. It was super high paced. I thought it was high paced before. And I just burnt out to be totally honest with you. I remember waking up on my twenty first birthday in London. Had loads of money, I was earning so much money. I didn't have any friends. I didn't have anywhere to go just because I was working every hour. And I just thought this is not how to experience London or wine. So really, I think hospitality, quite honestly, just burnt me out. I was doing it too quickly, too, too young, to be honest. And so at this time, I felt that majestic was really kind of the training ground for Talon in the UK. And I really felt like that was a clever move and a clever foundation to have on my CV to then boost through the next roles in my career. So it was very much a tactical decision to move to Majestic, and I knew that because I had already great experience in why I already had my WSTs up to level three at this stage because I did my diploma with majestic that I'd be able to kind of propel through the retail platform, so you normally have to start off in in the stores, and and they hired me straight away to go into the the sales team. So I was looking after corporate b to b business, which was super interesting because it was a move away from hospitality, which is what I needed at the time. And it was all about working out how to get wine into, for example, publishing houses or media firms or law firms, for example, and was in there doing tastings for CEOs of global companies and trying to work out how to get wine into their kind of hospitality moments or gifting for their clients. So it was really, very interesting and a great introduction to the business side, like you say. And then you mentioned Hills prospects, which was my next move, which is for those that don't know, it's a route to market. And it kind of dominates the the south of England as one of the strongest route route to market players, and it's fully composite as well. So there I really cut my teeth back in the on trade. So it was still as in a in a sales capacity. But now focused on restaurants, hotels, bars, for examples. And actually, learn a lot about other products too. So I learned about beer and spirits, even have to sell water, for example, So I feel like that was just such a a really kind of eye opening experience and the team there are really hardcore sales, very traditional, amazing at what they do. So that was another incredible experience. And then recently, been at Moet hennessy now for the last three years, almost to the date and totally different again. So Moet hennessy, we're brand owners. And I'm lucky enough to look after our beautiful still wines. So, you know, now the the job is super different again. We're a distributor or brand owner. So I've kind of done the retail side, the hospitality side, on trade side, b to b side, and now brand marketing. So I've I've just been trying to really carefully plug gaps in my CV to ensure that I'm a a well rounded wine professional. That's always been the goal. So what's a day in the life of Charlotte at Mood, Tennessee like? Know, what are what are your main areas of focus? What are you doing there? You said you're overseeing the still wines portfolio? Tell us tell us what you're up to there. As we're saying, and everything is a priority. It's it's a it's a crazy business to work for. It's super super fast paced. It's it's high pressure. It's very corporate, you know, we're the biggest luxury company in the world. So you can imagine the the pressure is is enormous, but I I love a challenge, and that's what makes it super interesting. But for me, the thing that I love about my role at Moa, Tennessee now, is that every day is so different. I mean, at the moment, I'm looking after seven global brands, and they're all very different. So, you know, I have a New Zealand, a very well known New Zealand brand. I have a new emerging Findwine Rosay brand. We have Nargin City and Malbec brands. You know, we have all of these completely different profiles of wines, and they're all at different stages, I guess, within their, within their journey of success. And my role is to look after them both in a marketing capacity. So that's everything from media campaigns, working with influencers, activations in the trade to sales, so supporting our sales team, getting new listings, with contracts, education, which is obviously a really, really important, I guess, part of what I do for me. So training our customers, our internal teams, teaching them WST or just about the brands in general, and everything in between. And and the other thing I love about the role is that it's UK wide. So I could be in Scotland in one week and and then in in Devon a week after on opposite sides of of the UK. And also we work with every single sector or channel. So I could be working with an e retailer in the morning and then talking to a smellier lunchtime, and then working on a media campaign with an agency in the afternoon, across different brands. So it's great because every day is so different. Even hour to hour is so different and it allows so much room for flexibility and creativity. So, yeah, it's a fantastic role. That's that is so much going on. That's, as you said, it's a lot of pressure. It's, you know, that's that's a huge amount of responsibility in kind of an unmappable situation where everything's changing every day. So let's just talk for a second about being a young woman in the UK wine business. You know, I have four daughters who are, you know, all in their late twenties, early thirties, and being a young woman in any UK business sector is challenging. I lived and worked in the UK for a long time. It's not always easy to command respect when you're a woman in wine, and often the only woman in the room, hopefully a little bit less for you than it was for me back in the day. But how how has the experience been for you? As you came up through the ranks over the past decade moving through these three very, very different companies. What were the highs? What were the lows? You know, how how has that experience been as as a young woman? Have you managed to navigate getting people's respect. How's it going? Well, this is, this is a huge question. And really, I could, I could talk for hours talking to you about this, and it's it's really I suspected that. Yes. It's I'll try and keep it. I mean, as you can tell, I like to talk. So I try and keep it brief, but I guess, you know, I've been in London. I think this is my eleventh year now. And the the industry, the place has changed enormously, and there it's it's still changing, and there's still room for so much more change to come. But I guess in trying to keep it as short summary as possible, when I first came, of course, I was, you know, ten, eleven years younger as well. So, obviously, that accounts to to how I was acting and behaving also, but I really had to work every hour, every second of the day to command that respect, like you said. You know, even, you know, I famously turned up to the tasting with it uninvited because I knew otherwise, I would never get an invitation. Just because I was young or a female or English sometimes. You know, I mentioned this this very although there used to be a very strong European similar culture in London, and actually part of the, I guess, exclusion that I felt was because I was English, which was, which was strange for me because I'm in my home country, but that was definitely a thing. The lows, he mentioned the highs and the lows, so the lows for me, we're definitely working in hospitality. Again, I know there are still challenges. There's still a way to go. It's not not just the females from former colleagues as well, but I think especially back then, it was pretty rough. It was really rough. And I think now being a really strong, you know, confident woman, I would look back at my younger self and say, don't do that. We'll come out of the room. Don't accept that. This is wrong. But at the time when you are desperate to be the wine queen of London, that was my goal, I'd never felt like I could say no or take myself out of a compromising situation, And even though I could feel that something felt dangerous or not quite right, I often stayed because I didn't wanna lose opportunities. And as you know, the wine industry is unfortunately an industry that has a lot of gatekeepers And again, like I said, being a young and female in English at the time, I just didn't think that I had, you know, I didn't I didn't have enough, I guess, respect like you said or someone at CCO was passed at these opportunities. So definitely lots of grim experiences is is working as a som. Like I say, I'm not I hope this is getting better. And actually, I know queena Wong. I don't know if you know her from curious vines. I know Queena, and I love Queena. She's she is fantastic. And a real leader and a a force for good, a powerful force for good. Exactly. And, she's a great friend of mine and, obviously, last year, she had this incredible survey about, you know, how women are being treated in the UK wine industry, and it was really interesting to obviously contribute towards that. But obviously read the results as well. And and see, you know, it wasn't just me. This has been happening to everyone. Now it's out there. People are accountable. People need to make changes. And so it's not a doom and gloom negative story. I really I talk about these things, I try and make it as positive as possible because things have changed, and that's amazing. First of all, and we should be really proud of that change for those of us that have been lobbying for it all this time. But also, you know, having people like Queena, for example, and being part of that to me is so important to make sure that nobody else goes through, some of the experience that I myself, had to suffer at the time. And so one of the highlights to flip that and and make your sunshine and roses again is was actually speaking with Queena at the London Wine Fair about, challenges that women face in, in the wine industry, and it was so insightful because the challenges and struggles that I felt myself were really different from the women sitting next to me on the panel. You know, I'm not a mother myself and listening to to people that have children in the wine industry and, you know, being being frowned upon for sampling wine, even though we're spitting it out, and, you know, sometimes not being allowed into tastings, or even after they've had their child and not being able to take a baby into a room because there's alcohol in that, you know, there were all of these really kind of intricate, I guess, issues that only women would face in the wine industry. So that was definitely one of one of the highs. And, I mean, I could give you ten more highs and ten more lows, but we'll be here. We'll we'll be here all afternoon. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel. Mama jumbo shrimp for fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. Now back to the show. Well, it's it's so interesting because I think, you know, what you said about gatekeepers, that that is a problem that the wine industry really faces. We're we are seeing a sea change. You know, I know myself having done this podcast and explored this issue in many countries and and with many people over the past few years, you know, we are seeing a sea change going, but I worked in England in the wine industry, and, of course, it England is very old school. It still is. And gatekeepers tend to be old white guys. They don't like young, women, whipper snappers. Particularly when it would appear that you have nothing to give, you're not French, you, you know, all of these things. So I think your experience is particularly focused, you know, kind of if we look at it sort of reverse discrimination there you are in England and your own country being kept out by gatekeepers. It's an interesting take on a problem that I think people like Queena and other people just getting people to understand that there is a problem that needs to be addressed is the first step. So I too was really, really thrilled about that survey, not about the results, but the fact that the survey was done and people, are taking notice. And I live in Italy, which is also a very patriarchal country. So I think just talking about this more, and I love to talk to you, obviously, is going to make the change. So I'm just gonna turn our conversation. You brought up the fact that you've done your WSET and how important wine education is. I am a wine educator myself. I'm a WSET educator and a professor of Italian wine and culture. So let's just talk a minute. You know, you've got your diploma here in educator, what do you think the role is for wine education in the current global situation? You know, our our industry is under threat from health warnings, declining numbers of new and young wine drinkers, and climate change is definitely giving us some challenges, you know, for growers, for producers, how do you see wine educating, you know, wine education supporting our industry? You know, what would you like to see happen with wine education in the next few years? Yes. It's just it's super interesting actually. And and you mentioned health warnings and, you know, worry that people are drinking, you know, we get we get all the data and insights, at the office and we see that younger people are drinking less. And in general, people are drinking less, but better. Just wait for a company like Mount hennessy that only own premium brands, but it's not great for the majority of the landscape. And as you say, climate changes is a huge threat to, to our industry, of course, the world, but specifically to wine as well because we're farmers at the end of the day, right? And this is this is a natural product. So, yeah, it it's really tricky because personally, I feel super passionate about health and well-being, and working in the wine trade can be quite tricky because most nights a week, I'm eating out, you know, it sounds all boo boo, but I'm eating at beautiful restaurants and having rich food and being expected to drink alcohol and and often until quite late. And it's difficult, really, really difficult to to make sure that I'm exercising enough and getting enough nutritional support and being able to rest in the downtime and and be as, I guess, clean as possible within or around those work moments. So it's something that I'm really passionate about trying to work harder on and trying to help my my colleagues and peers as well because I do think there are a lot of unhealthy people in the wine industry, especially in the UK, you know, we have a reputation of being big drinkers, and, and so I guess, you know, the insights and the data are all pointing one way. So it's good, and I'm really pleased that people are seeing this and and being more healthy and making more conscious choices. However, of course, that then is a risk to our industry. So it's a careful balance. And I think, you know, for myself, I love to practice moderation and and balance in general. And I just think that's the message as an educator that I like to give my students and and people that are asking me about wine consumption and and healthy wine consumption, first of all. And then in terms of education, I guess, in a broader sense, and, of course, WSTT would be kind of the main global, education platform that people and your your listeners will know and recognize, And I think WCT is absolutely fantastic. Of course, I do. I've I've loved the that going through the qualifications myself, it brings me so much joy to teach them now that there definitely needs to be a refresh on content. Especially, I think, locally. So, you know, for example, we live in England. We have English wine, and it's it's becoming a thing. Right? And, I think we need to do more, not only WST, but as the as the UK government, you know, at the moment, we're kind of hurting ourselves on the way that we are are taxing and and implementing duty on a product from our own country. So I think, yes, just being more with the times on current trends. I don't want to call English minor trend because it's, you know, it's not a trend. It's it's a new thing. It's a movement. Or, for example, you mentioned climate change, bringing that into curriculums and talking about more hardy grape varieties that can deal with these warmer temperatures like Greek varieties or Italian varieties and and how we can mitigate, I guess, danger in in the vineyards in the future. So I think two fold, I think, you know, focus on health and how to be healthier, super important, especially when you're in a position of influence, and also being, I guess, finger finger on the pulse a little bit more in the one street. You know, we're we are a traditional industry, and I think we can really do with just being able to talk about more modern, modern, and current issues and affairs as well. I could give you a hug right now. Actually, you just said so many things that I agree with. It's it's interesting. I love the fact that you are completely in favor of these sort of health warnings. That makes me really happy. I spend a lot of time with Professor Artilio Shenza who's our chief scientist at VIN Italy International in in Italy where I live. And he is, you know, in his seven days, he's very, very positive about climate change. He he has a lot to say about what we can do. It's not, you know, Damon gloom, and I I feel like you lifted up this health warning crisis that our industry is facing by saying, yeah, hey, we should be taking care of ourselves. I think that's a really good message and using your influence well, you know, as a young woman and a role model in wine in the UK, I think that's a strong message. Use your power well and encourage people to be healthy, but you can drink well, and still be healthy. So this is this is a really interesting conversation. I'm I'm really glad that that you're here talking to me today. I'm gonna ask you, you know, in terms of WSET of of which we are both fond. You were saying you feel they need a content refresh. They don't include English wines, which, of course, didn't exist twenty years ago. And I feel very strongly that they don't put enough focus on Italian wines, which are, you know, a big market shareholder. And, you know, even in diploma, I think you spend about three quarters of a day on Italian wines. So what what do you what would you like to see Michelle Brampton do with WST. She's been in charge now for just over a year, I think, Where would you like to see it go? Because it is pretty, old school. It's very traditional. The wine education is, you know, impeccable, but refreshing the content, what would you have her do? It's tricky, I guess, because I'm now I was just listening to you then, and I was thinking, well, it's not just English wine. It's not Italian wine here. What about Georgian wine? What about low and no? What about natural wine? Is all of these I guess kind of buzz topics at the moment, but they're not they're not a flash in the pan. You know, they are new. I'm really not so new anymore, but they're they're topics that are relevant now, but they will be for the future. So I don't know. Sure. Orange wine, m for a wine, all these things. Exactly. So I don't know if it's best to have a kind of, like, current affairs module that changes annually perhaps or You know, because the difficulty is if we just keep chucking in all of these these new, I guess, regions or areas of focus, then the the qualification is gonna become bigger. And I guess that is why WSTT have to obviously have, you know, the boundaries that they do have. So I don't know if it's worth just having, you know, a a different area that's refreshed annually or if they can afford to beef up the syllabus, but She'll work it out. She's a clever lady. She's an amazing lady. So I love that idea. A current affairs module that gets updated annually piggyback on top of the traditional education platform. I love that idea. I think we should put that forward to Michelle. That's it wouldn't be that hard. I think, you yes. I I'm gonna put your name with it because I think that's a great idea. And it would give room for, you know, new and emerging talents like you and other people in the industry, different sectors, winemakers, all different people, to have a voice in a current affairs section talking about markets and communication and challenges and all these things. That's a great idea. So alright. That this podcast was just worth it for that one idea, but, let let's let's talk a bit more about other other aspects of Charlotte. So I know you also hold a Champaign Academy diploma. I'm super jealous because only people from England and Ireland can do that. So tell us a little bit about the Champagne Academy because you're also an active committee member. What what are you doing there? What does the Champagne Academy do? And what are you doing for them now? So the Champagne Academy where to begin, you know, this is kind of like, a pet project on the side that I have been part of since twenty seventeen now. So quite a long time. And, yeah, it's really hard to describe and sum up, actually, and we're actually working on developing perhaps something like a mission statement to to be able to help with that moving forwards. But I guess in summary. Better website would be a good place to start just in We're working on it. We're working on it. But the problem is we are a charity. So we, yes, we're a non profit charity. So that's, I guess, where we struggle with. And all of us on the committee of volunteers, of course. And the Champaign Academy ultimately, it's an educational network as you correctly stay for people in the UK and Ireland, sadly. Course, you can be of other nationalities. You just need to be based here just to make that clear. And basically, this was founded in it was founded in nineteen fifty six, and we have sixteen Grandmark Champaign houses that are involved, and they basically fund every year a week long educational immersive trip to Champagne. And I've been very lucky, of course, throughout my year, and sorry, throughout my career, to travel the world with wine. I've been to the most amazing places all over the globe. And, actually, the neighboring, I guess, town for us, not too far in France Champagne, this probably was the best week of my life. Back in twenty seventeen when I was lucky enough to be picked as a candidate. And each year, the sixteen houses, pick sixteen UK trade representatives, and the idea is that these people in the UK are in an influential position. To be able to basically come back as champagne ambassadors and lift and boost the the name of champagne in the UK. So ultimately, they're forking out to educate you and to immerse you and to make you passionate. Then you come back to the UK and sell more champagne. That's the overall goal. But like I say, you you get to go out for a week, and and it's just the most incredible time. So you might have breakfast at Bolanger, and then you have lunch at Louis Roaderer, and then you have dinner at the Vove Cico mansion, and in between you're being hosted and given lectures and tastings by the head of the houses. So it's not just a representative for a brand such as myself, you know, you are with Olivia Crew or Uber de VA from Paul Rosier, you know, the the top the top people in in their in their houses, which is, first of all, you know, money cannot buy experience. And you're tasting wines that don't exist anymore. You know, one of the best memories I have was being at Charles Heitzik down in the Creier and So all the cellar master said to me, oh, you know, just just just grab a bottle, just whatever you want in this, you know, in these cabins under the ground and I just kind of meekly pointed at something that was kind of dusty and pulled it out. I don't even remember what vintage it was, to be honest. It was you know, it was like millennia old and the most incredible treat to taste, but you would never normally get to to do that. And and now I work for the biggest champagne company in the world at Mount hennessy and even me as an employee would never get that experience at one of our own houses now. So just the most incredible, incredible, week. And actually, the the other houses that are involved often say it's the best week of their year because, of course, normally, someone from Lansing is not gonna let someone from Periazua into their winemaking room or down into their cellars. And it's a week where everyone kind of puts the the competition aside. I mean, everyone's very friendly and champagne, of course. But they put the competition aside and it's just a really convivial, open, fun week. Anyway, so fast forward to the end of the week. There are exams every day. You finish with a blind tasting. You need to pass the exams to be able to to to get your diploma after the week. And if you get your diploma, then you are a member of the Champaign Academy for life. And then it's our job on the committee back in the UK. Just to run that annual program. So we, help with the candidate selection that the houses choose from. And then we are in charge of fundraising, and we're in charge of all of the events throughout the year. So we have dinners, tastings and events all throughout the year, four hour members to keep them active and engaged, give the houses opportunities to communicate and and talk to them and be in the room with them. And the process goes goes over and over next year. And I guess for me, I've I'm in a bit of a weird situation. I shouldn't have been on the committee this long. That's a crazy stint, but we obviously had COVID, which has pushed it back a couple of years. And I have the unique position that I moved into moment, Tennessee after I joined the committee. And there's a rule and it's a, you know, it's a very valid rule. I'm not allowed to be the president while one of our houses is in power. So every year there's a presidential house. So if Fervpico, for example, are the the presidential house, I cannot be the president of the academy. So I can't give preferential treatment. So Yeah. I've been on it for a super long time. I'm looking forward to to to to finally being the president in two years time now, and then passing on to to someone someone probably much better with fresher ideas that that can bring some new exciting energy to the the committee. Well, you are certainly very, very well respected now at this point in your career. And having been shortlisted by I WSE as emerging talent this year, and you were named one of Harper's wine and spirits thirty under thirty in twenty twenty two. You'll be the president of the Champagne Academy in another two years. What's what's coming up for you? You know, what what are your goals and your aspirations? Save for the next five years. You're super young. You're thirty. You know, what do you wanna do by the time you're forty? Wow. That is such a difficult question. I guess It is. It is, but it's a good one. It's it's making me think. But the, I guess, in the in the immediate future, and it's it's funny that we're talking actually because Italy is my weak spot for sure when it comes to my own personal wine knowledge. And I think that's just because I haven't worked with Italian wines very much. I've not been, able to taste as much compared to other regions, and I've not represented or sold much Italian wine or wine brands either. So last year I was very lucky to to win a scholarship from women of the Vine and spirits, a study scholarship. And I intend to use that on the Italian wine, scholar. To to be able to really focus, in on Italy as as a region and and and just keep learning because I love education. I love learning. So immediately, that's how I I hope to further my own education. So now we are connected. I will be in touch with you as an Italian wine expert. Well, I am part I am part of the Venitally International Academy, and we do the Italian wine Ambassador certification program. So I will be in touch with you as well because I think you need to do the course next year in verona, which would be fantastic. That's amazing. So there you go. You said earlier there's a reason, for being on the podcast already. There's mine. So we're both happy. So Italy, yeah, Italy is definitely my my area of focus. And then I guess in terms of my career, I think what I'd really love to do next is just a small stint of actually making wine and being really kind of in the thick of things. And again, working for the companies that I've worked for, I've been very lucky to go and participate in short bursts of harvest. So, you know, I've gone to for a week in Bordeaux, for example. But it was very it was definitely the romantic other things, you know, that we're trying to impress us. So we would pick for three hours and then sneak off for a glass of bollinger, and then back to the vines, and, you know, we were going into the the winery to clean the barrels, but it wasn't until ten AM when I know they've been in their scrubbing since five AM, for example. And I really want that authentic, get your hands dirty experience. So I'm really thinking about going to to make wine for a couple of months. Well, I'm sure they won't let me actually make wine. I'm sure I will be more scrubbing barrels, but I'm totally up for that. Maybe somewhere like Napa or South Africa is what I'm thinking at the moment, just as I really wanna be able to practice what I preach every day. And then I think in terms of next big position. I would love to move. I mean, I don't know, actually. I really don't know, but I miss hospitality. I really do. And I think, you'll know, you'll know it's it's in your blood. Once it's there, it's there, and it's it's it's hard to stop thinking about. So, yeah, perhaps working for a hotel group or a restaurant group, who knows? But then I think, oh, it would be nice to be based at a winery as well. I don't know. I really don't know. There's That's the great thing about our industry. There's it's so broad and there's there's so many opportunities. So I really don't know, actually, watch this space. I wanna do everything. Well, you're you're so lucky because when I was your agent just starting out, it I didn't realize how many careers there were in the wine industry. So you're already way ahead of where I was at at your point And, you know, just aspiring to try each one of those things, I think is fantastic. You have time and space to make it happen. So, you know, before we go, what advice would you give to young women who want to get into the wine business particularly in the UK right now. What would you tell them? Okay. So for me, this one is really easy. It is speak up, reach out, talk to me, talk to talk talk to any other women that have already been working in the trade, for me, kind of my my biggest motto in life is it's all about who you know, not what you know. And I really stand by that. For me, connections network is is strength and I definitely know I've got to where I am today by asking for help. You know, I'm not shy to ask for help. Hey, could you introduce me to this person? Or, ah, I see you've worked there before. You know, do you know anyone that'd be interested to talk to me and And I really think, a lot of people are are scared to ask for help. So, first of all, I think we need less gatekeepers. We need people that are more uplifting, more positive, more open. I personally love. Like I said earlier, I love mentoring and and offering advice and helping coach and not just young women, you know, men as well about coming into the wine industry. So if there's anyone listening that would love to to kind of work out how to step into the industry, I mean, I myself am super open, and would love to help and talk as much as possible. But I think it's, you know, just reach out. Just just ask for help. That's that's a simple one for me. And I I like the idea that we need more gate openers than gatekeepers. Let's let's hand out keys. Let's hand out keys to anyone. Yes. Take all the gates down. So I am completely with you on that. And I love that you're already mentoring, even though, you know, you're still very young and in early early time in your career. Your career has been long and broad in a very short period of time. So I am going to keep my eye on you, Charlotte. I'm so happy to have spoken to you today, and I will be in touch to see if I can help you out with some more in-depth Italian things, and you are always welcome to come visit me. I live in Valpolicella. So, and when I'm back in England, sometime this summer, I'm gonna come and see you. So thank you so much for talking to me today. Absolutely. Thank you for listening and remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italianwine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.