Ep. 2031 Sarah Kemp | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Who wants to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Join an exclusive network of four hundred Italian wine ambassadors across forty eight countries. Vineetly International Academy is coming to Chicago on October nineteenth is twenty first. And while Mati Kazakhstan from November sixteenth to eighteenth. Don't miss out. Register now at Vineeti dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so honored to have Sarah Kemp with me as a guest on voices. Sarah joined Decantor magazine in nineteen eighty five, and she became the publisher and managing director in nineteen ninety six. Her illustrious career at Decantor spent thirty two years until she stepped down in two thousand and seventeen. And she's become an international consultant on strategy and communication for the wine industry ever since. In twenty twenty, Sarah founded the wine conversation, which is described as a pod site. And I like that word very much. For wine lovers, housing podcasts and articles and recommendations, as well as lots of other wine information and stories, conversations with world renowned experts, and essentially just opening a door for anyone who's curious about the wine world. So, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on voices today. It will be my pleasure to talk to you. Thank you, Cynthia. I'm absolutely delighted to be here. Well, you've always been very open about your path into the wine sector having grown up in a little village in West Sussex at a time when nobody expected girls to work when they grew up. And it was actually a gift from your father on your sixteenth birthday that changed everything for you. So fill us in about this gift and how it seduced you into the world of wine. Well, my father was a journalist in Fleet Street, and there were four children and one way of filling out the Christmas presents was to go to a bookstore which had review copies. So we always had review copies as part of our Christmas presents and, and also for birthdays. Anyway, one birthday, my sixteenth, I'm pretty sure it was my sixteenth. He came back with Hugh Johnson's wine companion, and it was the second edition. Now my father had absolutely no interest in why whatsoever, but he was a great admirer of the artist, Paul hogarth, who'd done these amazing drawings throughout the book. And in fact, I just looked at the book, and there were in the five hundred pages, there were only sixteen pages were in color. So everything else were these glorious, wonderful drawings of producers, and vineyards and scenes to do with wine. When I opened it up and As a convent girl who'd really not been out of West Sussex and Italy been to France twice, I started reading about Chile and France and Eric De Rothchard and Miguel Torres and Angelo Gayer and look at all these names of shadows and domains. And I thought, wow. There's a big world out there, and I really want to know more. And so I started reading it, and that's how I started getting interested in wine. I love that story. I think it's just absolutely brilliant. The power of a book, and it's it's not often these days that people walk around with an actual book. Everyone seems to read things on their screens, but, having that book in your hands and and seeing all those amazing drawings is is what sucked you in for a want of a better phrase. So, what what happened? You know, you went from Hugh Johnson's amazing book into an incredible career. Know, what was your first job in wine? How did you eventually arrive at Decanter? Well, my first job in wine was actually at Decanter, which is surprising. At that time, my parents just hoped I'd marry a nice doctor or something and bring up children in the countryside. And, certainly, there was no idea that you'd go on and have a career. Very few people went to university. So I ended up going up, I was left some money by my grandfather where I, you know, and my mother said, well, you probably should get some qualification. So I was sent off to a rather smart secretarial college in London for six months. And from there, I ended up working for associated newspapers, like my father ended up in newspapers, running sort of errands getting coffees and doing very bad shorthand for Mary. I was absolutely useless. Anyway, anyway, I then ended up at the field, which was owned by associated newspapers, and they said, oh, right. And that got me into the publishing side. And so for the publishing side at the field, a job came up at Decatur, and I thought, oh, that's interesting. That's wine. I like wine. You know, I I I'd moved into, a flat with a girlfriend of mine who was training to be a doctor. And, her father had the very first copy of Decatur, would you believe? And so we used to go to these odd white tastings. I thought, well, this looks rather good. Anyway, so that's how I ended up at Decatur, via publishing, not wine. Well, far better than the field. You could've you could've been roaming the countryside with a shotgun, and instead you went into wine. So I think that was a very wise choice, basically. So Dechanter ended up being your home for over thirty years, and your achievements there have definitely affected the entire global wine sector in so many ways. You founded decanter dot com and decanter china dot com and the decanter World wine Awards and Europe and China's premier wine events to counter fine wine encounter, to counter Shanghai fine wine encounter do I need to go on? But yet, you were a young woman in what was still a very, very male dominated business when you started particularly in London. So what was it like? What challenges did you face as you moved up the wine ladder? How did you overcome that sort of sense of male gatekeeping in those days? I think I realized very early on. The most important thing was to be as professional as you could be. Also, I I do think with wine, there is a language. I which if you're not in the wine world, can sound like you're sort of talking in middle earth, you know, the the room some sort of language of the elves. But I very early on thought, I've gotta find people who know more than I do because I know very little. I know I've got Hugh Johnson's book. I've been to a few cases, but, you know, I'm a newbie. So I thought I've got to find experts and I've got to hang around and listen to them. And that's what I did, and I remember there was a wonderful chap called Val Brown of Hammond Brothers, and he taught me things like Sarah, look at the glass. If it's bright and smiling at you, that's a really good sign. And so by osmosis, I just tried to find anyone I could who would help me understand why. And also what helped me understand why, and, of course, was visiting the vineyards, which are then you could do anything you like in a there is nothing like walking a vineyard and seeing it and realizing how every day matters in how the wine is going to taste. So I think it was probably the fact that I wanted to speak the same language as the men, and I was so interested that I think people are very generous wine wine experts on the whole, not always, but on the whole. And if they see somebody who really is passionate and wants to know more, they can be incredibly generous with their knowledge, and I was very lucky there. That I found many many people who are very happy to help me understand what wine is all about. I think you've touched on something that is, part of what drew me into wine wine people in general. And as you said, not all, but but many, and most these days, I would say, are very generous of spirit and do love to see, somebody who's eager and interested and and willing to put in the work. So I'm I'm so happy that you had those experiences and understanding that you needed to talk to people who knew more than you. That's basically my approach to tennis. I always play with people better than me because, otherwise, I'll never get any better. But one is something that no one can ever know at all. Every year is different. Climate change, every vineyard is different. Every soil is different. All of these things. So, having an ongoing conversation, I think, is so important. And you really embodied that in your sort of journey. So I I am very struck by the people that you roped in to join DeKantor, you know, your your experts that you gathered up and listened to your power of knowing star quality when you see it. And persuading people to join you is just legend. You know, tell us a bit about what it took to get the likes of Stevens Ferrier and Stephen Brook and Andrew Jeffrey and Jane Hansen and Jane Hansen to come on board at Decanter with you. Well, they were all different stories, but they're all ones I remember quite clearly. Stephen Sporia, who are probably of all, was the closest to me. I made him consultant editor. And I always thought he was the muse, my muse, and the heart of Decanter because what Steven embodied for me was wine in context. He was a brilliant taster. But he wasn't a wine geek or a wine nerd, and he was generous, and he wanted to share his knowledge. And I remember he had just come back. He'd had a very tough time in you or things haven't gone well. He closed down, carved a Madeline in Paris. And Michael Broadband was our star contributor, but he was in his seventies, and I'd just taken over as publisher. And I said to my husband, what the hell am I going to do? You know, Michael's such a star. We're going to need a columnist who's really good. And my husband, who's American, had known Stephen through, the seventy six tasty when he was at the Winding Street of California. He said, well, have you thought of Stephen Sporia? And I thought, oh, well, I thought Stephen was far too famous, frankly. Anyway, I was at a wine spirit Baul with Michael Broadbets, some bartholomew, which is very bizarre because I don't go to many wine and spirit balls. And we I bumped into Stephen, and he had got a job at Harris as in charge of the wine department. Steven, who was so honest, had been asked by the Sunday Times who wanted to do an article on him what the changes he was going to bring. And he had mentioned that all the wines wouldn't be under lights because, obviously, they were ruined. Anyway, Alfayed who was in charge of Harris was furious and basically fired him. So I said to Steve, and this is really good news. He said, I've been fired. I said, that's brilliant. You can come and work with us. He said, okay. And that's how that started. And it was the happiest of, relationships. We worked so closely together throughout my career. And I don't think to counter be what it is without Stephen's spirit. That's a wonderful story. I'd never heard that story about harrods, and that's that's absolutely brilliant. And so classic, classic Steven, classic, everything in London in those days. So you know, well done you for snacking you. Well, I was actually thrilled to pieces. So anyway, so that set decanter on a very different path because once Stephen was there, we became much more international because, of course, Stephen was our greatest ambassador. And then, well, Steven Brooke, I remember, was very suspicious because the founders of Decanter was, Tony Lord, Australian and Colin Parnell, who were chalk and cheese. And I think the best thing to say about Tony was he was not everyone's cup of tea, could be quite abrasive. And Stephen Brooke, who's this wonderful charming, but more academic serious and wonderful writer, was sort of I think slightly, put off. So I remember taking him to a very nice restaurant in Queens Town Road and doing my very, very best to woo him over several courses and say, you know, I'm a great admirer, which I was, but not just of his wine writing, but also he'd written some wonderful books about New York and other things. Anyway, once he discovered that actually I had an interest outside why we got chatting and actually became very good friends. And so that's how I sort of enticed him in. And then, of course, once we worked together, it was it was wonderful. And he was brilliant. And Jefford, of course, again, was slightly suspicious, but what a writer. I had to have him on board. I mean, he was I'm so proud of publishing Andrew. It's one of the things I'm most proud of. I think he's utterly brilliant. And then Jane Hanson, well, you know, the next generation, I mean, and my joy is that I still work with Jane today, and we are working together on all sorts of projects. And, a serious woman who was the right person to take over the baton from from Steven. So I've been so lucky so lucky. Well, absolutely. But I do think that you you really have a power of understanding people's talents and how to put them together. It's a spectacular crew of people who are all quite different. I've I've had the opportunity to work with Steven Brooke a couple of times at five star wine here in Verona, and he is a gentleman to his very core. So, taking these people with very different personalities and and talents and turning them into part of Decanter's core family was, you know, a a super achievement and something that really reached out and spoke to people around the world every time they wrote and and continue to write in the magazine. So But I I think you said the I think you hit on it, but what was so lovely and which gave me immense emotional satisfaction was they did see it as a family. Everybody got on very well. We had a lot of laughter Everyone worked hard. Everyone wanted to produce great magazine, great events, whatever great awards. But we really all got on as friends as well. And I think I think that came through, hopefully. Oh, I I agree. I've I've been a great fan of Decanter for, oh, gosh, over twenty five years. So I think you're absolutely right. And that's where your brilliance lies by creating that sort of safe family space where people could really write well. And and they did, and they continued to. So but it's interesting because outside of Decantor, you've been a freelance writer, a special advisor to the CEO at sixty seven Paul Mall, and consultant for Moitt and Tennessee and a judge for all sorts of top wine competitions all around the world. So, you know, you've you've been in this wine business for such a long time now, and I wanna know, you know, what what are your favorite wine jobs? What were your favorite wine moments over the years? Do you know? I think probably some of the events of meeting the readers. Probably one of my favorites was launching Shanghai It took me eight years, going backwards and forwards with lots of lots and lots and lots of setbacks. But to see a new audience and be able to be the person to deliver all these brilliant top producers, you know, we took in the first grows in Angela Gayer and all these wonderful, domains and properties around the world. We had a hundred producers in showing high. And to see the the the first time that happening in China and opening that up to a new audience was so rewarding because you think this is what it's about. We we are just the bridge you know, to get. So so we could bring more people to understand what we love. So that was a great moment. I've loved recently. Jane answered and I launched the connoisseur week, three years ago, which is a week with just ten people taking them around border and Shay them our border. And that's been very rewarding. I think in the end, I I've really liked meeting the readers most. That's wonderful. I that's that makes me very happy. There were so many answers you could have given, and meeting the readers is nice. I I feel that way about my students. I'm a wine educator. It is the part of my job for which I am paid the least, and I we love the most. So I I know that feeling of being able to be in front of real life people who love what you're doing, and it is so meaningful. It it makes it all worthwhile. So let's talk about these latest ventures. You you mentioned Conister Week where people are going to France with you and Jane, and you've also got the wine conversation, which you founded, in twenty twenty. So what sparked that idea? It's a very interesting one. I don't think I ever thought I would set out to run a website, a pod a pod site, as I call it. But when I left to Canada, you know, It was such a part of my life. And I thought you could start another magazine, but why would you want to do that? Also, because I think the world is changing. Media is changing. So One thing I I really wanted to do was work on bringing together the great stories of wine, and I also was becoming incredibly frustrated that wine have been hijacked by points and tasting notes, which I don't think I think they have their place, but I do not think they tell bring people into wine in the way that stories do and the history of wine does and and having wine in context. Anyway, I podcasts were taking off, and I thought, well, our good look. So I took myself on for one day podcast course. Which caused absolute hilarity of anyone who knew me because they knew that actually I didn't even know how to turn on the lights, which I don't know how to do the printer. So the idea I was going to do anything technical was seen as a joke. Anyway, I decided that I would plow away in a and I was very, very lucky because I live in a remote part of Scotland, but I managed to find a sound engineer who taught me how to edit because I knew nobody would be able to edit what I needed because he wouldn't understand why. But I thought this is really interesting because you can get the real voices of either the expert or the producer talking directly. To the wine lover. And I think it's the most fantastic medium, and I'm incredibly excited about it because it's an oral history. It's oral it's stories like we used to have you know, when we sat around the fire, you know, as, you know, stories are important, and that's what sparks people's imagination. So I decided to try it, and I was Unbelievably lucky that, John Stemphick, who had left a counter shortly after me, who was my content director, and Ellen McCoy, who was, wrote a lot for me in the US said, can I be your US editor? I said, of course, you can, Ellen. Like, I've just was so thrilled. I could have cried. And Jane Hansen, who, of course, I continue to work with, and we just banded together to try and bring stories across the airwaves. And it's been a wonderful project, which gives me a great deal of satisfaction. I'm so happy to hear that as a as a fellow podcaster. I also fell into it. My children still make fun of me, their favorite line is when they hear me say, you know, and on my podcast the other day, no one ever expected to hear that, including me. But it is I like what you said about an oral history. I I live in Italy, obviously. I'm focused in Italian wine, and some of the greatest wine stories ever come from here. So I've become immersed in this, tradition and culture of storytelling, and it is a wonderful way to do it on on a podcast something that is saved where you hear the actual people's voices, it is kind of magical in a strange way. I think it's very magical. And I I I'm thrilled that I did it. I've had to learn as I've go along, not everything's perfect, but I do think that it is something that a new generation really relate to. And it's, you know, we've got to go and tell stories and get people involved in wine and enthusiastic about wine where they already are. And, you know, if they're not reading newspapers, if they're reading less newspapers, less magazines, they are listening. So let's go where they are. Absolutely. And it's it's one of those things where you can multitask. You can drive your car whilst you're listening or be on a run or take a bath or whatever, cook your dinner. All of those sorts of things while you're listening. And I think that's something that, you know, a book couldn't do, and and this is something that really takes the step into how people live their lives these days, which is exciting. Well, I think we're both very keen on podcasts. It's no question. I I really think it's the future of communication. Absolutely. So, listen, before I let you go, just a couple of more things, you've been described as a unique and charismatic personality with an insatiable knowledge and curiosity about wines and a remarkable ordo analyst. So what's next for you? You've got the wine conversation going. What are you gonna do beyond this? Clearly, you're not retiring. We see this, Sarah. It's never happening. So what would you still like to achieve in wine? What would you what would you really love to do next? Oh, that's a big question, Cynthia. I due date, one of the great joys of not being part of a corporation anymore is being slightly more random. So I'm very much, see what comes up, but I would like the wine conversation, you know, to to broaden to to maybe publish even more stories. I mean, my problem is the time to publish the ones I do, there are so many more great stories out there. I think anything I can do to pay back what wine's given me to get other people who maybe don't know how to get into wine and just say come with us. It's come over the bridge. It's a magical world here. It's not just tasting notes or whatever, but it's a it's a really interesting world to know a little about it will enhance your life. So I suppose that's, you know, working more on the wine conversation. I don't want to publish another magazine. I don't want to I don't want to run any awards. I've done that. But I think anything which is a communication tool to bring people wherever they are in the world to understanding the magic of this incredible beverage is what I want to do. Well, you've opened the door for my very last question. What advice would you give to a young woman in twenty twenty four who wants to join the wine industry? What would be your top do's and don'ts for somebody just starting to explore wine as a career? First of all, always be curious. Be really curious. Ask questions. Don't be afraid to ask questions. There is no question too stupid. Visit the vineyards. I think that's really important. Any opportunity you get, go to a vineyard, make up your own mind. I think get definitely go to the vineyards, see as much as you can, talk to the producers, understand what they're trying to do. Look at the weather patterns. Understand how a year makes up the whole picture. Don't don't believe tasting is absolute. Just, you know, anyone who said it's absolutely that because it's going to change. It's going to pay in general mood. It would change in the glass. You know, it's going to change in the bottle. So I think you know, be very open minded is what I would say. And I think the other thing is if you really want to get on well, you've got to have have a vision stick to it. I always had this, wonderfully cheesy thing at Decatura, my my I sort of I said, our motto is never give up, never surrender. It was taken from a sci fi movie, but I thought it was pretty good. And I think resilience is really important. I mean, the number of times Things didn't happen, and things were setback like China, eight years. I remember people coming and flinging files back on my desk of business plans and saying, oh, the board have said no. And so you say, alright. Go away. Have a bit of a cry, and then come back and think, right, well, we'll have to go another way up the mountain. So I think my advice to anybody who wants to get in is, listen, learn, be humble. You're not gonna know anything. And if anyone says anything is absolute, that are a charlatan because wine is forever changing, and that is why it's so fascinating. That is a brilliant answer. I cannot possibly top that, Sarah. I I can't thank you enough for for this conversation today. You've lifted up my afternoon quite a lot. I also, I'm happy to tell you that I had the great pleasure of judging suit top line in Sicily with James Button just a couple of weeks ago. So the glory of Decanter lives on in your in your staff who are still going without your leadership. And I am just I'm thrilled to to have heard your story from, you know, in your own voice, which I think is just as important as producers. We are you know, the historians who are documenting these things, and it was wonderful to hear all of all of these lovely stories of yours. Well, it's been absolute pleasure, Cynthia. And thank you very much indeed for talking to me today. I am very flattered. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. 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