Ep. 2040 Natalie Wang | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Who wants to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Join an exclusive network of four hundred Italian wine ambassadors across forty eight countries. Vineetly International Academy is coming to Chicago on October nineteenth is twenty first. And while Mati Kazakhstan from November sixteenth to eighteenth. Don't miss out. Register now at Vineeti dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so delighted to welcome Natalie Wang to voices. Natalie's a Hong Kong based wine journalist reporting on China's wine market since two thousand and fifteen. She launched her own media platform in two thousand and nineteen called Vino Joy, which I love, which is the only English language website dedicated to the expanding and complex industry in China and the rest of Asia. In twenty seventeen, Natalie won the young communicator of the year award from Kathy Pacific International Wine and Spirits Awards. So Thank you so much for joining us today, Natalie. The China wine market is so interesting and so important. So I'm really happy to speak today. Oh, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Well, I know you grew up in Chang Wing in in the southwest of China, which is a city known for finance and manufacturing and transportation. So I'm wondering how did you get interested in wine? Yeah. And also for spicy food. In China. I love spicy food. I love spicy food. I haven't been to China in four years and I miss it. Oh my god. You have to visit. There's just so many restaurants, bars popping up and so much cheaper than Hong Kong as well. Everything's cheaper than Hong Kong. That is true. That is true. But yes, speaking of wine, it was all because, I will all go went back to my early days as a young aspiring journalist. But at the time I was really covering, China, politics, and social news stories, which is subject, that can get very serious. And, a few years after that, I decided to make a switch and cover something that's more sort of lighthearted, a more lifestyle oriented, topics. So wine became something that I'm I grew interested in, and So I took a career change. I'm veered into that part. Well, I know you went to work for James suckling Asia. So you took a good career change. That that was a good way to get into wine. James suckling, of course, very Stegis, and you became the managing editor for Asia Air, and then you moved to the drinks business in Hong Kong. So how how did you meet up with James Suckling, and then how did you get to drinks business? Yeah. Good question. Because at the time, I was just so desperate. Like, anything other than politics, I'm all in for it. And then, you know, I was frantically searching on different job sites and, you know, like, just popped up that James was looking for a sort of editor to look after the website. And, of course, at the time, like, I honestly, I didn't drink anyone even though I was twenty five years old by then. I didn't drink any wine. I didn't know anything about wine industry, but it was just, you know, the sort of idea of wine and, you know, and what it promises as well offered a good opportunity to sort of cover wine. So naturally, I joined him. From there, I really learned a great amount of wine and wine tasting as well, but funny enough because I didn't drink wine at the first week. Working for James was so intense. Wine was like, you know, water. I was drinking wine, lunchtime, dinner time, and I broke out in Hives. You couldn't I can't make this up. On my body, it's like, you were allergic? Yeah. I was allergic because I didn't drink. Like, I barely drank any alcohol, like, in my life up to that point. So, you know, like, really, my body had a violent reaction. And then first week into it, I'm like, oh my god, I can't do this job. If I reached, I had to drink so much wine. And guess why? I have to talk to James. I want to quit. Yeah. It was so funny. And then even, years later, when I run into James, I said, well, I'm too glad I I persuaded you to stay. I was like, oh, you know, you just have to ease into it, build up your tolerance. And then in time, your body was sort of adjust to it. And then they got it did. And, yeah, there was that. It was really quick funny now thinking back. I can't imagine changing your career, throwing over politics, going into wine, and then finding out that you can't drink wine. Oh, dear. Oh my goodness. That must have been and you were young. Twenty five is young. You were actually young. Well, like, I was so overwhelmed. Oh my god. What am I gonna do? My body is fighting hard against mine. And then I really, like, first week, like, James, I need to quit. He persuaded me to stay. And then luckily, I really, like, my body just built up the tolerance, and I came to really appreciate why a lot lot more every day. And then, I worked for James for two years, and another opportunity came. And because of James, I got moved to bangkok because at the time, I think he was trying to do green wines of Italy even. So naturally, I was relocated to Bangkok to work alongside with his son, Jack, to help organize green wines of, Italy in Bangkok. That was a fun experience. And then afterwards, I had this opportunity to sort of, join Drake's business as, it's sort of reporter versus his reporter, online editor here in Hong Kong. Sort of to cover the Chinese and Asia wine and drinks industry. I thought it was a great opportunity because with James, obviously, it's more about wine review. And for me as a trained journalist, I'm more gravitated towards, sort of reporting side of, the industry. That's how I switched. And from there, I stayed with drinks business in Hong Kong for more than two years, and eventually working as a managing editor for Asia. Well, it's it's such an interesting path that you've taken because, you know, obviously, as you said, your background is in reporting, you know, and researching and understanding the backstory of all these things. And I just wanna ask you. So you've you've been in sort of wine drinks now for, you know, a long time, almost ten years. And you've said that over the past few years, you've noticed a real improvement in Chinese wine and more confidence from Chinese winemakers. So I'd love to hear your perspective about the Chinese winemaking industry because it is emerging. I think it will be important. You know, do Chinese consumers generally prefer domestic Chinese wines, or do they drink more imported wines? How come it's so difficult to get Chinese premium wines in the international market. I can't get them at all. So fill us in a bit on your thoughts on the Chinese wine making industry. Yeah. Thanks. I think this is a really important sort of, subject that we're looking at. Right now in the industry. I mean, frankly, like, I think the main reason I didn't grow up drinking wine was my because my first encounter with the with the with the wine was so horrible. Like, you just you know, you don't aspire to drink this thing anymore. Like, what is this horrid liquid in the gas? You're making me cry, Natalie. You're making me cry. No. Because I drank a, you know, a Chinese wine that's mass produced by one of the big, you know, one of the biggest wineries there, and it was so undrinkable. And it makes then made sense back then, you know, a lot of people mixing coke or bright into wine to make it more palatable. I completely understand. Like, if I'm drinking that kind of wine, I would do the same. So it was really like because my first encounter with wine was so bad. So it didn't really lead me down that road to discover a little bit more more. Yeah, I think that was sort of the impression that I had for the longest time. But now, like, going back to visit Chinese wineries and actually discovering so many James in Hong Kong. It was just a revelation. In the past few years, you have more aspiring winemakers who got trained in France, in Australia, different parts of the world, and then going back to the country and should find insights to craft, to our driven wines is something vastly different from what wineries were doing ten years ago. It was many driven by those big volume producers like and state owned wineries likes, you know, great war. Nowadays, you have a diversity of winemakers producing wines, you know, you know, in, you know, and Penglai as well. Like so many different, regions and tours that wine makers are exploring right now. And then they are making, like, interesting wines. I think in the past, people talk a lot about auto blend. And then I always talk about insha being, you know, the border of China. And nowadays, you can see that even wine makers, Chinese winemakers, when you're talking to them, they're way more confident in what they are doing. Actually, if you say, oh, you know, this is like a bottle like wine, some wine makers might take offense to that because they are so steadfast in the vision that's what they're producing is China wine unique to its local tawaz. They say, well, we're producing wines that reflect, you know, tawaz would be nuns. Nothing like Odo, nothing like Napa. So you definitely see that evolution of Chinese wine And then they are sort of more wineries are moving away from, you know, bordeaux varieties like cabernet, merlot, you know, putting perdau. They're doing more, like, even nowadays wineries are doing more pinot noir. Riesling, and even pets now, like, interesting things on Masaland as well, which is a great variety China sort of has taken, as its own. So you definitely see more interesting things happening in the market. And another thing I noticed with a lot of the Chinese wineries and winemakers, they are doing more organic sort of natural winemaking. They're they're just more aware of sustainability compared with the older generation. Of wineries. So I think those are all encouraging things to look at. And then, again, I think all those factors explain why Chinese consumer nowadays are drinking perhaps more domestically produced Chinese wines versus imported wines. We have to bear in mind, actually, in China, even when the imported wines were booming, Chinese wine consumption still, you know, that domestically produced Chinese wine still account for the majority of wines consumed in the country. So that has always been the status quo, but it's just, you know, nowadays, you see maybe, like, importing wine shrinking a little bit more in terms of market share and Chinese wines expanding more. I think a lot of the reasons are attributed to the, you know, what I had just talked about. Yeah. With the improvement in quality, I definitely see more Chinese wineries having more ambitions nowadays to, you know, go for export markets. For instance, I think in Nish for, you know, a region that has a lot of government backing and so board. You have quite a few leading wineries actually present in, international markets in the UK, the US, Australia, Singapore, like Silver Heights, Shigua, which is dubbed by me. I think with first time when I visited them as the China's answer to Penfolds. So they're very yeah. Because they're sort of trying to mimic that style and the marketing. And they have been quite good, at that as well. So they are very active in pushing in the, sort of export markets. But, I don't I mean, right now, it's a small portion of wineries doing exports majority of them are still sold domestically? Well, it's interesting that you mentioned Silver Heights because that's probably my favorite Chinese wine that I've tasted. I I haven't tasted loads of them, to be honest, but I was impressed with Silver Heights, and I know Silver Heights is run by a woman. So is that common? Are there a lot of women in the Chinese wine making industry? Oh, yeah. It's so many, like, in China's wine industry. The best winemakers happen to be females. That's great news. Yeah. Exactly. Also, girl power. I mean, several heights, like you mentioned, it's it's also have that happens to be one of my favorite wines from China as well. It is a winery that I've seen so much evolution happening there, you know, just even within the winery itself because at the beginning, it was a very sort of traditional Chinese winery, garage, wine, sort of, But now they're really transforming. And then I think they are now the first Chinese winery to get demeter certified biodynamic. And they're making like sparkling wine, ethanol, cider, so many different things. And then they have a I don't know if you try their single variety of pinot noir, like a natural one hundred percent natural biodynamic as well. It's so delicious. This is this is fantastic. This is so interesting. I'm so glad to speak to you today. And I'm delighted to hear that, Silver Heights is carrying on with all the good work that they've been doing since the last time I was I was in China. Let me ask what do you think, you know, in your opinion, what do you think the biggest potential in Chinese wine is over the next couple of years. What do you think star will be? Oh, wow. I think it's really those kind of young aspiring winemakers who are really doing it for the sake of wine because in the past, right, The mentality of investing in wine is always led by, you know, like state owned companies or like big conglomerate, you know, who just think who who think, oh, you know, invest in wine for quick but, you know, five years later, you know, so millions. And often often than not. That's not the case. Wine is not something that you can expect an immediate return without investment. It takes like years and perhaps even decades to, you know, have some decent returns. So I think young generations are going into wine industry with a different kind of mentality. They're not there for the immediate profits. They're really passionate about wine. They love how wine is made. The stories behind it, you know, the people making the wines and the land that's producing the wine. So it's completely, driven by something other than profits. It's really passion. So I think That is something we're seeing right now. And definitely I think that's something. It's the fuel that's gonna power the industry to move forward for all the good reasons. It might take time, but, you know, rightfully so as any other great things. It will definitely take time. Yeah. As as that famous saying, good things come to those who wait. So, I think this is this is really making me so happy to hear about this. Before we finish this conversation, I'm gonna have to ask you for some names of young aspiring winemakers I can interview because I want to learn more about Oh, yes. Please do. You have to. There's so many. You know? Well, let me you what what's the position of Italian wines in the Chinese market these days? Yeah. That's the interest. I think it's funny. That does sound like a happy noise, Natalie. What's going on? Yeah. Because because you know, personally I had a lot of expectation for Italian wine because it Italy is such a, you know, great wine producer with so many grape wines. But in the Chinese market, for some reason, like, it never really took off. Who always, you know, the market shares around ten percent. And when China slapped a lot of tariffs on Australian wine, and my natural thinking is, oh, maybe Italian wines will sort of, like, search up and then capture it. I think that's what everybody saw. Yeah. That's what everybody thought. And that didn't happen. That didn't happen for Italy. It didn't happen for Chile for a lot of countries. So I think of still, you know, of course, there are a lot of reasons behind it, but still, you can see like Italian wines that need to sort of invest a little bit more in the market to grow, this product market. But encouragingly in the past two years. What we have seen is the pro popularity prosecco is really catching up in China right now. The young generations like millennials and gen z, they really love proseccos. So Italian prosecco and white wines have emerged to become the new sort of growth opportunities for a lot of, merchants as well in the country. So that's that's very interesting. That's very interesting. And and I love getting your perspective on this because you have your boots on the ground there and you know what's actually happening. And it will be interesting for Italian producers to hear all of this. It's it's it's a very interesting moment in time, I think, for the whole wine industry, industry. And I'm so glad to hear that China's domestic industry, is becoming more focused on quality rather than quantity. And it will be that that will definitely have a role to play in how Italian do in the Chinese market in the future. So but let's talk a little bit about Vino Joy. I love that name. So, congratulations on that. But what gave you the idea to launch your own company? You know, you were doing well. You had a great career. With, your journalism. And you decided to launch a company in just a couple of years, you know, Joy has become, you know, pretty much the reference point for wine professionals as the leading and most trustworthy source in China's wine industry. So What gave you the idea? Why did you start up with being a joy? What's your goal for the future with this website? Oh, thank you so much. I mean, I'm very humble to hear that. But for me, really, like, the original idea of launching this platform is really the lack of information and coverage on the market despite the size and potential of China and rest of Asia because the future of wine without a doubt is Asia Pacific. But today, if you look at the coverage on this market, like, you know, compared with the US, what people other media publications are covering about US and Europe, you know, UK is vastly skewed towards that traditional part of the market. That's really the original goal to bring, like, trustworthy facts based reporting to help, you know, wineries and export managers to make informed decisions on the market because China market is so vast and complicated. People can't be thinking, okay, you know, China is like this, you know, one size fits all. The fact is China is the size of Europe and then it has more than thirty different province provinces each with its unique dynamics and, you know, like key players in the, you know, in that own sort of kingdom of, you know, things. So it's really like it's such a diverse and vast and complicated market. Like, we have to be able to sort of tell the story more effectively to our readers to help them understand the market better because a lot of times when, you know, like, we read stories on China and it's so one dimensional and it's so simplistic. People look at the size of China. It's like, oh, huge, you know, with a that much population, one point four billion. So whatever I sell to China, they're thinking, okay, I'm gonna sell it to one point four billion. Reality is curiosity can't be more different. You know, the the dynamics of the market, like how it's sort of segmented in so many different ways. Oftentimes the hurdles and barriers to a lot of wine wineries and big wine groups That's also that also explains why sometimes, you know, like after a winery goes into China, like, for one or two years, you don't see a return. Oh, man, the market is so different, and they just, you know, withdraw and exit the market, which is quite unfortunate. Because the market is so different and so big and it takes a lot of patience, frankly, and resources to be able to sort of, see a return from it. I'm absolutely fascinated by the Natalie, what would be your advice? You know, I work with a lot of Italian producers who who want to get into the China and Asia wine market. What would be your advice to them about? What's the best way to do it? If if the marketing strategies that they've been using now, don't work. And I wanted to bring a new producer into China. What would you tell me to do to attract attention and and draw consumers and get some sales? What would be your advice? Yeah. I think first of all, they need to understand their positioning as well. If it's like a small family owned winery that really don't have the volume to sell or the resources to, you know, be able to invest in the market. I I don't think China market is for you. And for, you know, big wineries, they have to allocate really. This is not a market. Like, you know, you just go into some wine dinners and then, damn, that's it. You know, you need to set aside resources and marketing budget to really invest in the market, can you afford to have someone on the ground to give you sort of unbiased information, you know, and then get that sort of context from different provinces to help build up network and relationship with different different wine borders distributors. Are you invested in doing that? Not just for a year, but two or three years down the road, you know, to continuously have that presence If you can't commit to that, I don't think China market is for you. Frankly, it's a market like you can't do business by just traveling to the market, you know, to host a wine dinner, to do a few tastings, you know, in a week. It doesn't work that way. And in reality, yeah, you have to follow it through. And then a lot of wineries, I've been thinking in the past, they just rely on the importer to do everything for them. I mean, Porters, they will do that. But you have to understand, they represent so many different brands in the portfolio. If everyone expects them, you know, a team of, you know, staff to do that. It is quite stretched. And also at the same time, like, you just need to have really, like, because everyone will have a different say, like, in how China market is, you know, Shanghai is vastly different from the market y shaman in southern China, and it's vastly different from the market in Shendu in southwestern China. So you really need to have someone to be on the ground to go to visit those regional markets to be able to come up with, you know, like their own ideas on how to mix and match the portfolio to fit their distributors needs in that market. So I think you need really need, sort of boots on the ground. To be able to succeed in pocket. That's fascinating, and that is an investment because that means, you know, paying a salary to somebody, to do that job and somebody who you're probably only gonna see once or twice a year. So, as you as you say, it's I I love your honesty because, basically, you're if you are a small artisan producer in Italy, China's not gonna work out for you. And I think I think you're the first person who's ever actually said that out loud with that I have heard. Okay? Pro, like, really, like, okay. So if you're a small artisanal wine winery, right, you have something unique. Someone will buy it, you know, one for a one time deal, but then it's not gonna be, like, long term investments. You know, like, imported nowadays frankly, like, we just released China's top fifty wine importers. The landscape of importers changed so much. The China's imported wine market is not the market of, you know, ASC fine wines, EMW, you know, Because those are the big names, but the reality is it's a market that's so segmented and dominated by like ten thousand different importers stretched out from east to west south to north. It's that diverse. Like whatever sales in cheating in North China does not work in Chongqing in my hometown. So that's how vastly it is. You can't sort of rely on one importer that has a presence in a few different cities to do all the work for re you really, really need to have the investment on the ground to be able to connect and talk to different contacts to see how the market works, you know, and be able to be agile and change and you know, they come up with something different to succeed in the market. So it's definitely a challenging market. It's not easy at all. For a small winery, if you're not prepared to give that kind of investment to have that attention on the market, it it's not gonna work. This is really fascinating. I really appreciate your insight and and your honesty about how the market is emerging there. So That's the whole idea for our news site as well, because you know, I'm not invested in wine sales. It's a as wine journalist. It's not my job to tell you, oh my god. How great China market is, even though I believe it's potential. But at the same time, it's like I need to give my readers a realistic picture of what the market is so that they can make decisions, you know, based on those re realistic, you know, expectations have to set their expectations right. If if I tell them, okay, China market is great. You know, like, you should do this, do that. I mean, they go into the market without high expectation. And then things doesn't work out. And that's, like, lying to readers. Right? And you're misleading your readers as well. So for us as, you know, a wine, you know, media publication, a focus on journalism reporting, it is really fact based reporting. Like people, a lot of people sometimes, like, you know, stories are right about, like, twenty five percent of people, like young people don't drink wine anymore in China. We will made us a bit like, oh, man, this is not good. Why you write negative news stories? But this is a reality. Right? Like, this is a reality, and then how can you engage with young customers a little bit more to change them? Because sometimes, you know, you read that and you click into it, and then we talk about it. The rest of the seventy five percent of the, you know, the young consumers, what they are looking for. What country clicked with them? So they have to be more like you know, informed, you know, the holistic picture of stories as well. So, you know, that's sort of how I see our platform, you know, serving our readers as well is to really provide fact based data, news, and analysis. This is amazing. This is one of the best conversations I've had in a while. I love your integrity, and your sort of drive to to be that honest voice for for your readers and for people who really need to hear the information that you have. It's it's it's amazing because you also have a lot of other roles in the wine industry. You're a judge, you're a writer. You can too much stuff to do. But, yes, I do a little bit judging, judging in terms of wine quality and also, like, wine writing judging. Out of everything that you do, your your website, your writing, all of these things, what's your favorite part of your job? I know, you know, I do lots of things in wine too. It's very hard to have only one job in wine. So, what's your favorite part of what you do? Yeah. No. I I I can tell you what I hate most is the admin bot. Yeah. Like, then, you know, like really mundane. I had to make work. I have to go through, like, all the back ends of stuff. Like, checking everybody's, you know, queries from our general email email box. That's sort of the least But the most favorite part definitely is the writing part. I mean, I like spending time to understand research a subject and be able to sort of like see different aspects and develop a story and get to learn things a little bit more. That's really definitely I think the most rewarding one because a lot of times I go into it. I'm like, I don't understand this. You know, how is it? Like, so I ask a lot of questions and sort of naturally leads you to do more research. The more research you do, you feel like, oh, wow. The more exciting it gets. And then it's just that sort of aspect of writing and investigating reporting is really something that I genuinely love? Well, we're on the same page with that. I love writing and researching too. That's why I love my podcast. I I love to research interesting people, but I love to do wine wine writing as well. It is fun digging in behind the scenes. So you doing podcast is so wonderful because, you know, you can sit down with different people and sort of it's the same thing, like understanding their background, their stories, the motivation, their drive. It's sort of the conversation itself is very invigorating. I'm so lucky. People talk to me. I get to hear their story. It's I I love people. I couldn't talk to anyone. But I I am a storyteller, so I love it when other people tell me their story. Series. I'm I never get bored doing this job. It's it's one of my favorite things that I get to do, so I'm very grateful to Italian wine podcast for having me do it. But, you know, speaking of all this communicating and stuff, you know, writing and you you were nominated, for the wine communicator of the year by I WSC in twenty twenty three. So you were the only Chinese born wine journalist to ever achieve that distinction. You're also the only Chinese wine judge for sixty seven Paul Mall Global Wine. So I'm wondering, you know, what challenges do Chinese wine journalists face internationally? Why do we not have more Chinese wine journalists? You've just spent ten minutes telling me you know, China's diverse. The wine market is vast, and we've got all this stuff. Why are there not more people like you, Natalie? How, you know, how difficult is it to do what you do in China? Because we all know China is political and complicated Why do we not have more Chinese wine journalists? Yeah. Like, I really, like, I wish we can change this, like, very quickly. I think the men vary is rated language. There are a lot of Chinese, writing about wine, but it's many in Chinese. So they can't reach an international audience. So that's really a shame. Even just, you know, this year, we had the inaugural sixty seven Paul Moore Global Y communication awards. I know we read like hundreds of entries from different parts the world. And as you can imagine, all the entries are dominated by US and Europe. There is not one single entry, I think, from Asia, which is really sad. Because, yeah, because this part of market as I said before. It's really the future of the market. And then this is a part of the market where people want to know more. Yet there's little information coming out of this because chiefly and many, the language, barrier, I think. So it is really difficult. Yeah. Well, it's I think also, you know, wine writing is is not a job that pays a lot of money either. So Yeah. That's true for drawing as I mentioned. Yeah. I mean, people people have to earn money and I think it's it's it's I also find this sad because that as like you, writing is is one of my favorite parts of what I do, but I have to spend so much time doing other things in order to, you know, pay the bills. That I think, yeah, it discourages people from from writing and that's sad too because we need more wine writers who who are good at their job. So we and we have to find some way to to encourage them and support them. Which is a whole another topic of discussion. We'll need another podcast. But listen, in twenty twenty one, you were also voted one of the top fifty most influential women working in the wine and spirits industry by women and wine and spirits awards. So, you know, I can tell this whole conversation shows how knowledgeable you are and you have your finger on the pulse of what's happening in China and Asia in the wine market. So aside from your website, you know, how are you using your strength and your profile as a, you know, really important, honest, intelligent, wine writer to mentor young women in China who wanna enter the wine business, you know, not just as writers, but in other ways. You know, what course of action would you recommend right now to a young woman who was just starting out in her wine career in China? Well, so I always, you know, whoever has advice, you know, like, they reach out to me on WeChat more often than other platforms, you know, like, oh, I want to look for internships in wine, things like that. What can I do? So I offer them some advice on that, but more closely, I actually, because I graduated from Hong Kong University's journalism program. So they actually have a lot of internship opportunities for aspiring young journalists. So every year, I actually hire some, fresh grads from journalism school to help, you know, bring more sort of voices and talents into covering and writing about wine in this field. Cause like it's like I said before, like there's so few Chinese journalists actually covering wine industry. So I'm really sort of like bringing them in and then, you know, giving them all more opportunities to see if they're interested in pursuing this, you know, field. Are you making them drink wine like James made you? Yeah. Like, trying to, you know, every time we go out, I meet. I'm like, okay, let's order a glass of wine. A good glass of wine to make sure they will come back to listen to this category. Very important part of mentoring. Get them good wine. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely good wine. But really, I I see more of my sort of, help with young women in China. It's really my sort of showing them the ropes how to do this and, you know, cover a little bit more on the China to sort of lure them into this industry because I always tell them because they they they're very interested in storytelling and I always tell them why it's the same. Like, you get to meet so many different people, interesting people working in the industry, and there's so many family stories. There's so many, like, social, economical, political aspects impacted the industry that should be covered and deserve to be covered as well. So they're just immense amount of stories and topics that people can talk and dig a little bit deeper as well to always encourage them to do a little bit more. And, hopefully, and hopefully we'll be able to hire a two, you know, two more sort of reporters, young female reporters or joining us to cover a bit. Well, I love it that you're actually hiring people. It's, you know, it's it's always good to mentor people and to have conversations. But as I said before, people need to make money, you know, the fact that you're actually giving them a job and giving them experience. And as you said, showing them the ropes and leading the way leading by example and bringing them into your office, that's amazing. And we need to see more of that across the wine industry. I think that's really commendable. Yeah. That's what I'm planning to do with, actually, we just did a few runs of interviews. So going forward, this year, we're going to hire one more journalist in Hong Kong or anything in Hong Kong already in China, you know, to cover a little bit more on the market, on the ground, to bring sort of on the ground up to date up to date reporting about the industry. Yeah. So stay tuned. Well, Natalie, I can't thank you enough. This has been a really uplifting conversation and so fascinating, such good insight into the Chinese wine market, but also sort of the challenges that are facing, you know, information and news coming out, not just the wine making itself, but actually how we hear about the news and how, you know, Italian wine process producers can process that and and work out what is best for them in the Chinese market. So thank you so so much for all your time. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you so much for doing the interview with me and then bearing with me. As well as a ramble alone. No problem at all. It was great. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday, I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. 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