Ep. 2129 Judy Chan | Voices with Cynthia Chaplin

It would be really fun to work with my dad. He is a very fun person to to to be with. He's, curious, he's creative. And I guess there's no one else want to to help you in your career more than your parents. So I decided to join. And the first day when I shop, at work, thinking that my dad would ask me to do operation, administrative type of things. My dad say, hey, I have a winery. We are about to produce and Boschov Hospital wine. Can you can you take over? So I was really shocked. I was like, why didn't you tell me? You have a wine at least I take some wine courses while not when I was in college. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin. And today, I'm so pleased to welcome Judy Chan to the show. Judy is the CEO of Grace Vineyards in China. In two thousand and one, she took the baton from her father who started the winery in nineteen ninety seven on the Taegu plateau. Now based in Shangzi and ninja, Judy led Grace Vineyard to a sterling reputation for producing some of China's finest wines in two thousand and twenty three James Suckling placed Grace vineyard wines at number four, eleven, and seventeen on his top. One hundred best wines in China. So, Judy, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. I'm so interested in your story. I'm happy to say that I have tried your wine. So, Oh, which one? I tried the Tazia, so I will talk about that one later on. I'm so happy to talk to you because often when I'm speaking to people on the other side of the world, I haven't been able to try their wine. So with you, I have, so this makes me really pleased. And I want to know more about your story. I know your dad started Grace Vineyard in nineteen ninety seven, and his background was business. So what kind of interest in wine? You know, why would you start a vineyard at that time when most men would retire? You know, actually my dad, it's in nineteen seven. My dad is more or less my age. Now he was only forty seven. He wasn't in a retirement age. And, but, the reason why he started is because, he he one of his, career change is being appointed by a French company to be the agent in China for them. And that's, when my father have to travel to France frequently, had the chance to then expose to wine and taste wine. And one of his, French friends, retired a few years, a ninety four, I think. And in light of my dad and say, hey, why don't we buy a winery in in burgundy popped possibly together. And then they they went around. They look up a lot of places, and my dad look at the books and they feel like there's no way these winery turn around. And so my dad, counter proposed to his friend and said, what about we build something in China? The disposable income in China is growing, and the wine in Chinese wasn't very good. We have a chance to create history, and that's that's how it happened. Well, that's so incredible. It And it really has changed so much since then. I remember, you know, I I drank some pretty bad Chinese wine in the late nineties and early two thousands, so it has come along a lot. But and your dad must be so happy to see this. So I know you took over grace from him in two thousand and two, and the winery was only five years old, and you were still in your early twenties. So were you expecting to take over so soon, or was that a big surprise? It was a big surprise. I was, I was in Goldman working then, but I was planning to go to graduate school. So it was really a a not I would not say internship, but in between undergrad and grad graduate school. And my dad, we I know that he's in business, but I never knew what he did. He always said that he's in business, he's in business. Business can be quite a wide range. Right? Opening restaurant is a business, you know, do training business also. But then one night, my dad, we were having dinner together. And all of a sudden, he said, do you want her to, join the family business? Again, I didn't know what he did. I thought it would be really fun to work with my dad. He is a very fun person to to, to be with. He's, curious, he's creative. And I guess there's no one else want to to help you in your career more than your parents. So I decided to join. And the first day when I shop, at work, thinking that my dad would ask me to do operation administrative type of things. My dad say, hey, I have a winery. We're about to produce and both of First Federal Wine, can you can you take over? So I was really shocked. I was like, why didn't you tell me you have a warning? At least I take some wine courses while not when I was in college that I have the basic in information or understanding. I didn't know anything about wine. I didn't drink. I didn't even drink beer. Leave a little wine. So everything was so foreign. And I the the most interesting thing is that I've never seen my dad drink wine at home. Not once. Wow. That's incredible. So where was all this wine going? You mean the wine that he produced? If he wasn't drinking it, it wasn't coming home. The the first few years, you only plant you only plant grapes The great need a few years to mature. So we only did the first harvest at two thousand and one and then make it into wine and only can bottle it in end of two thousand and two because it take two years to make wine. And two thousand three. So, basically, there was no wine. I I joined right before we had produced the first vintage. So, yeah, you were really the captain of the first vintage. That's so interesting. Yeah. That's why my dad always said that we're cofounder, very kind of him. But it it was it was such a interesting journey to see, a project, a brand, a company starting really from the very beginning. I just keep the pot of planting. That's such an interesting experience. I think not many people in wine get to have that experience of really, you know, starting from before even the first bottle has been released. So I like it that he says you're a co founder. That's very sweet. Yeah. But it's just a really fascinating, fascinating experience because, we get to, you know, he picked the Chinese name, and I picked the, word grace because his Chinese name is Pleasant Garden. And I feel that Grace is kind of a a close translation. You don't have to directly translate it, but how he carried a similar meaning. And then, I remember we I had to design the first bottle of the label, the packaging. And you always think that it's so easy, right? You'll just hire a firm. The firm can do it for you, then you get it right. But actually it's so difficult. Because my team, I was early twenties. My team mostly, in the fourth or fifties, They're all come from state owned company. Most of them have never left Sanxi. So they didn't know anything about wine as well, leave a loan marketing and sales. And they hire a Beijing company because they think that then see Beijing is so much, you know, our our capital city. They must have great designer there. And they've they hire a design firm and and the designer just ugly and ugly and ugly. I remember I flew to Beijing went into this office of this design firm and they showed me on their computer and then point to it is that which one you don't which part you don't like? I can change it now. And I'm thinking to myself, if I know how to design, I don't need you. It's just beyond it's just everything is ugly. So there's nothing to change. Oh, tears. That's terrible. It's just really difficult. You didn't I didn't think it's that hard, but it's even getting the packaging right, getting the label right is so difficult. Well, and of course now we know that, you know, especially people coming in new young consumers' packaging is really important. You have to get it right. Yes. Yes. And even back then, our packaging is still very important. I remember the first one we did with this Beijing firm, it was a disaster. We only we we we'd give away, like, ten thousand for free because nobody wanted. And then, my brother, my young youngest brother, back then, he was probably, like, thirteen, fourteen, And and and he saw the bottle. He said, of course nobody gonna buy it. It looked like a soy sauce bottle. Seriously, the bottle is awful. And you know, you have to think about back then. In China, the wine that you can get in the market are very cheap. Right, around twenty RMB, maybe retail price, which is maybe two, three euro. Right. The bottle that you can you can afford is very cheap. There's no expensive bottle. And the paper they print awful paper, the printing colors were awful. There was no nice cork, and the capsule is all plastic. There's no tin or aluminum. So all available high end packaging were not available in China back then. That's but this is so amazing. This is fascinating. So what did you do? So I hired another company in Hong Kong because I know Hong Kong better. And then we changed the design. We import we decided to import bottle from France, which is at ten times the cost than the one in China. But there's no guarantee you can sell even if you change your packaging. The capsule and cork are all imported. So, literally, when we started, beside the Wy makers imported, barrels is imported, even the packaging material had to be imported. Yeah. Barals and and all and courts are expensive already in Europe. So I can't imagine how much the added cost of having to import and transport them, must have added on by then. Yeah. But but then that that was I I think that we were thinking I mean, we're thinking very hard through this. And My dad being such a genius. He I I keep asking him what do you think? What do you think? And he said, you are the CEO. You have a college degree. You have a brain. Think about it. Just don't make irreversible mistake. Come on. I don't even know which mistake is reversible, which one is not. So I remember lying in bed that night because the next day I need to place the order of the bottle. I was really I couldn't sleep because I there's no I I I could I don't know. I didn't know whether it's the right decision or not. I just know that a a chunk of money just went out. A big chunk of money, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And then it's it's it wasn't sometimes people feel that it's great to be a boss because you can make decision. But the other hand is that you have also to bear the consequences of the decisions. And and often time you're at a crossroad, and sometimes explain to people if I know turning right is absolutely right, why would I turn left? It's often time that you don't know, and you don't know which other option you have? Well, I'm dying to know. So what happened when everything arrived from France? So, we we yeah. So we we started. So, and I said, explain to you the first year, we did twenty thousand out of a million bottle, out of a million. Right? And I was in fifty years. I can't stand fifty years. I And then the next vintage, another million is coming. I do know that my wine couldn't last fifty years for the first winter, but young vines and everything. So, but the next year, we jumped to a hundred thousand. And the year after we joined three hundred thousand and half a million, and then by two thousand and seven two thousand two thousand and eight, we are on allocation already. Yes. It's an incredible growth. I mean, that's just six years, really. That's that's a lot of growth. It's an incredible growth, but that's one thing that I keep telling people. Of course, I thought that it was my genius, but looking back, we did a few things right. Right? We focus on the quality. We separate us from the existing, old, Chinese producer. We folk, we put out effort in the vineyard and making a good wine change your packaging. But there are so many thing not because of us. For example, China was was developing really fast. Everything, everybody was positive. Everyone want to invest in China. Wanna come to China. Multinational hotels are are growing very fast in China. So there's many things that happen all at the same time, give us a chance to grow like that. That's true. That's definitely true. It was a golden moment, really. Yes. Yes. So we ride on it, in a way. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But the fact is your wines, you know, your wines really did improve, and they did become good. And I I wanna talk about that a little bit in a minute, but I also wanna talk about, you know, you and your role there. You know, you were saying being a boss is not what it's cracked up to be because at the end of the day, everything stops at your door. So I know, you know, also recent statistics say that there are only six point four percent female CEOs in China. And even though there are four hundred and fifty wineries in China, there's still a big lack of women working in the wine industry. So What was it like for you taking on such a high profile and really responsible role when you were a very young woman? You didn't know anything about wine. You didn't even drink wine. You know, how did the men at your winery and and the Chinese wine business react to you? I think this is a this is a question that I got asked very often. There's always plus and minuses. I think because I'm a women's study major, I'm very aware of these gender social, hierarchy. And I'm I feel very comfortable with myself being a woman, being now a month, older women with kids and things. Back then, I think the issue in China It is not about it wasn't about, being women. It's was about being young. Age discrimination are quite, quite strong, especially in a more traditional industry in a more traditional province in China. So I remember going to see the government, and then my driver drove drove me there. Every time the government greet us, they always went to my driver because he's an older man. So they always know that I was an assistant coming in. So so when you're young, people kind of shocked looking at you, and and it's very hard to convince them that you know what you're doing, but also I didn't know what I was doing, I guess. So I think age was a a difficult part for me back then. So I really wanted to get older, as fast as possible. We just, that's very, very countered the trend. Everybody wants to stay young, but Judy Chan, she wants to get old. When you want to get older and get to a certain age and stop there, I guess. That's why I'm looking at it. But I think age was, more difficult for me than back then. And then, I don't feel uncomfortable being surrounded by men. I have been to dinner so many times. I am the only woman, around. And the good thing is that you people all remember you. A young girl doing wine, and and then they even though they may not, remember, they always call me Grace. They always think that my name is Grace. So it's very easy for them to remember me as a result, very easy to remember Grace Finard as a brand. So that is benefit, I think. That's very cool. So you were more or less the business card for the company? I I was I was the, fund phrase for the company because I can't afford to hire someone to be. But it's actually quite effective back then. As you said, there were, like, back then, most of the producer in China, you wouldn't know who is behind the scene. You you just know the brand, and there isn't a phase for it. Krishna was very much I was always in front of the camera or being interviewed. So my face is so closely associated with grace. And I think having a face is easier to remotely remember. I think that's really true. And I think also easier for people to connect with especially, you know, in a country where wine, it hasn't traditionally been a huge, you know, product that, you know, wine is wine, wine is wine, but here's this one that's being fronted by this young woman. I'm sure you're correct. That you were memorable and that you were a great marketing tool. Yeah. And, also, they create I think wine is a emotional, product. You are connected to a particular wine either it's a very famous winery, or you have visited, or you know the owners, or you have some memory. You you create a emotional tie. I think that is kind of special about wine, and it work in the sense that when the owner is is also the person telling you about the wine explaining to you, having dinner with you, drinking with you. Well, of course, I live in Italy where the the home of emotion and family stories in wine. So I completely agree with that. And people do want to know, you know, they they like hearing about the story of you and your father, and they like seeing photographs of you and the vineyard. So I think you are onto something that it took other producers in China a long time to catch up with. You know, this is Italy, it it does a very good job of storytelling. But I think you were probably the ground breaker in China to do that and to connect yourself with the wine so people knew who you were. Well, it's interesting because, you know, that didn't take you very long. You know, Grace became a publicly listed company on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange in two thousand and eighteen. So, you know, really not even twenty years after you came in. So what made you take the decision to go public? And what's changed at Grace since you did that in twenty eighteen? I think I think that we, it's two reason. You know, at the beginning of the first ten years of grazing out, we're definitely losing money. You know, you have found great for four years making product for another two, six, seven years of no product. Every month we started, you need to invest in sales and marketing. You need to build your channel, And so when people ask us about the winery, when you are in business, one of the things that my dad told me, if you're in business, you can't tell people that you're losing money when you're it is your business. You can only tell people this is your hobby. So I keep telling her people that, oh, Greshenha is really my hobby. I really love it. And but then the thing is, I I I think it it's not healthy for the team. Ultimately, it still should be financially healthy. It cannot be a hobby pet project. And I need to make sure that the team and myself understand the financial part of it is also important. I think it's great that we go public because we have to publish our result every quarter. And then my team feel like they have a board to answer to. They have other shareholders other than me that need to explain to. They are much more serious about getting the numbers right, delivering what they promise. Because otherwise, in the in the early days, I know how hard they work. And if they miss the sales target. They would look at me and say boss, you saw that I worked really hard. You will understand. Right? Well, you would not think that I didn't work hard. But we're having a public company. I feel that the whole team is much more accountable. So that's that is a very positive development. And it we are probably the most properly run winery in China. One of them probably run winery in China in terms of the financial side as well. And then the other reason is because it It is a family business. I want to run it properly. I don't wanna mix it with our other family business that because because my father had my my family have other businesses as well. So oftentimes, we might have cross guarantee and financial cash transaction, like borrowing money from one company to another. It's it's very common you do that when you're private, and, but you can't do it when you're public. So I think both is the is just to make sure that we have better discipline. I think this is a really unique perspective on, you know, doing an IPO and taking a company public because most of the time it's for money. And and this, you know, what you just explained really showed your commitment to getting all the people who worked for you vested in this company and making it, you know, something that rose above this idea of of being a hobby just because you weren't allowed to say you were losing money in business. It's it's a fascinating way to look at why you would take a company public and making those people feel that they had a real stake in it and and that being able to be transparent and publish your results every quarter gave them some pride. I I think this is a very unique take on on doing a public offering. So I'm I am on board with this. I think getting Vineyard stewards and people who work in vineyards vested in the company that they're working for is really an important thing to do. We also also through this exercise, some of our core team members get, shares. I think that is also important. Yeah. Very much because then it becomes personal. It's it's really personal. When you have you know, not only your paycheck coming from the company, but you have investment in the company, you know, that's gonna last a long time that you can pass on to your children. Suddenly, you're building something that's bigger than you. I think that's that's a a really, you know, unique gift to give the people who you trust to work with your company. So I love that. I think that's something we should explore more in in the wine world because it's it's very important to keep the people who work for you feeling that they're connected. So I love that. I I wanna ask you, you know, kind of talk about the markets and things. How does the domestic market for Chinese wine change in the past twenty five years. You know, we both agreed that twenty five years ago, it was pretty bad. So, you know, what about the international market for Chinese wine? How are people drinking more domestic Chinese wine now? I know China used to import a lot of international wine that stopped for various reasons back on the rise again. So what would you say the market for domestic and international wine is like in China right now? In China. Right? So so basically, China wine and imported wine. Yeah. I think in China, the, there's there's positive and and negative aspect of it. Twenty years old when I started, as you said, there was just a handful of winery, probably less than ten and quality was poor. And then in the last twenty years, there are more than like four hundreds. Even there are different official numbers, but but there are four hundred or to seven hundred wineries in China. In different province, different size. On the positive note, the quality can improve a lot. And and there are more diversity in terms of style. There are very interesting producer, There are a lot of wine makers who are very talented, very young, educated, overseas, and come back. The acceptance of Chinese wine in China is growing. I think that you will see a restaurant and hotel having at least a few Chinese wine, the wine list, which is, which is unheard of before. And those those are the positive thing. The negative thing, which is the unfortunate thing is the market was growing, up till two thousand twelve. Every since twenty twelve, wine consumption in China has been dropping tremendously, and it continued to drop. So the overall volume is dropping So it and and then there are more producer in the market. So you can see it will be even worse. It will be much more competitive. And the other thing is that I think twenty years ago, Import to wine probably, maybe twenty percent on the market. And and then eighty percent is domestic. I think it's reversed now. It's like twenty percent is domestic and eighty percent is imported. And imports to wine Honestly, I think the most successful one is penfolds. People will all know penfolds and then other important one. Yeah. It's it's interesting. Yeah. I I agree with you. I I those those percentages are really shocking when you think about it, especially because the quality of Chinese wine has really improved so much. So, it's interesting. I think probably goes back to the question of, you know, disposable income and and what people can afford to buy and, you know, what they want to show off to their friends. It's it's Yeah. I think it's very difficult for a domestic producer is because the market as a whole is shrinking. And then imported wine now is majority. Third, our cost is not low at all. And then, and wine is a foreign product. It's it's not like soy sauce we produce in China. And you export. And then wine is is imported as seen as a Western product. And you can buy, let's say Italian wine, cheaper than Chinese wine, and qualities may be at par if not better or worse, not there are there are there are one hundred these days are pretty good. Most people can't really tell the difference. So so for for a Chinese drinker, Why not pick an imported wine which may be cheaper as well? Wow. That's that's shocking that it that, the the imported wines are cheaper than the domestic wines very it's very interesting, not from a business perspective. And it's interesting to hear that, consumption's going down as well. We all know that the World Health Organization is, trying to convince people to limit their alcohol intake to to nothing, which would be dangerous for all of us in the wine industry. So it I think the next couple of years are gonna be very, very interesting on these sorts of questions, but you know, we're talking about international wines, and I know that you make some of your wines with sangiovese and Alianico. So our native grapes from Italy, and I'm very excited about this. So who decided to experiment with these native Italian grapes? And How are the wines coming along? We we actually continue. We we imported two cuttings, one at the beginning, or when we established a vineyard. And then we did another one in two thousand sixteen. From nursery in Australia. And so we imported more than twenty varietals and clones because we wanted to figure out what to grow and where to grown. And, of course, that is backed by signs in term of rainfall, in term of sunlight requirement, those things. So we choose twenty something variety to plant. And a lot of them is not, it's not successful. Like, we explained, didn't work, San Giovanni didn't work, So a lot of bright variety didn't work. And the, and Pino didn't work. Nabilo didn't work. So they saw Alianico and Sanjuvazis because a very few of them work. Alianico is showing really well. I absolutely love it. I think it's a very elegant compared to, the Alienko in Italy. I think that we have soft soft attending, and, maybe can drink a bit younger, in comparison. Central USA, we just launched it is very it's a it's a refreshing light, a wine, which I I I really quite like it. It's, I I am a big fan of Tuscany, so I I love Sanjay. So Well, it's interesting because our Alianico, you know, Taurazi and Compania and Vultre in Vasilicata tend to grow on volcanic soils. So I'm sure you're growing on very different soils there. Yeah. We're growing on Sandy's oil. So the character is very different. We we did a, my, a friend of mine did a blind tasting in, or in Milan and Rome, a few years ago. With Alianco producer, twenty something, and he put my wine in. And it was funny that, that we went pretty, pretty great on both blind tasting. Well, it's that's the one that I've tried, the the Alianca that you have. And one of them is named for your daughter, Tazia. So, you know, what's what's it been like running a major winery getting married because having a mother, all at the same time. I have six children, four of which are daughters. So I know it's not easy to do. How how has it been for you in the past sort of, you know, fifteen years with all of these things happening in your life as well as trying to run a major wine company? It's it definitely, was a struggle. I was very young when I got married. And then I had a kid when I was, like, twenty four, and when my friends were partying in in Lancoi form in Hong Kong. And then, and so and then my, I I was more or less a single mom because because my ex husband now ex husband back then he was traveling every day. So literally just me. And then even though I live in Hong Kong, I need to travel to China often to the winery to the market. So it was really a struggle. I I have my my daughter school, in Hong Kong say that I neglect them because I didn't sign the handbook, and I was thinking, why would you could just sign handbook still? There's email, but it's a traditional Catholic school. They wouldn't change. So it's a really struggle. I struggle in a sense that On a personal level, I couldn't share with my friends because they were all single and dating and partying. I was already running a business and then having two kids and and then having to take care of this. So it was rather lonely, I guess. And then some of the days that you feel like, oh, I I I feel guilty, not being with my girls. And there were days that you feel like I could have done better at work. So there is never really a balance. We, you know, people always like to talk about work like balance. I said there's no balance, but if you want it enough, you will you will go forward it would within this imbalance state swinging from this side to another side constantly. That's the state. But now now that I my daughters are both in college, I'm having the happiest time of my life. My friends are still struggling tutoring their kids during COVID. I'm not free as a bird. I'm not curve the money around. So I can pick up a bag today and just fly anywhere I want. And I can spend so much more time at work and cover for my my team member, my colleagues who are now struggling with parenting. So This this resonates with me so much. It really does. And I think it resonates probably with a lot of, women who are listening to to the show. It's it is so difficult to be a young mother with an absent husband, everything on your shoulders. And you do feel lonely and guilty, and every day feels like it's going wrong. So, I'm I'm horrified that your school called you a neglectful mother because I think it, you know, sometimes working mothers are the ones who are most tuned into their children because you do feel so guilty all the time. So I am very happy that your daughters are now grown up and in university. Mine are all grown up to. My my youngest one is twenty four. So I feel like you. I can travel. I can work as much as I want. I I don't feel like I'm missing out on time with anybody, but those years are really hard. And I think they do shape you as a person in your career, as well as a person in your family. So, you know, would you like to see your daughters following your footsteps and come into Grace Vineyard when they grow up? I think Again, I don't expect them to do. I try to involve them, like, in the summer internship, we I get my daughter and her friends to do social media videos for us. So she get to see some of the actions. But whether they wanted to join is really totally up to them. I won't I won't plan around it. Because I think gracing up I I want gracing up to last and and become a better brand. And whoever is capable, would be would be the best person to run it. And, of course, they will retain some shares in it. And whether they're gonna run it is a separate story. Yeah. We one never knows what one's children are gonna do. I can I can attest to that for sure? Yeah. I always put my daughter just as long as you don't drag my feet, don't ask me to raise your kids and things like that. I don't expect that you're gonna you support me when I'm old. So just let let live it independent life. Exactly. Exactly. And everybody wants their children to be happy in doing what they what they want. So it'll be interesting to see what your girls decide to do. Yeah. And I know, you know, Grace Vineyard will be thirty years old in twenty twenty seven. So Yeah. What are you gonna do to mark the big anniversary? Because that's a big anniversary for you personally as well, really. Yes. It's, I I will yeah. I would turn fifty because I'm I'm boning seven seventy. So his sis is strange and, you know, you feel like fifty is far far away, but now it's actually approaching. We don't have a plan for our thirtieth anniversary. The honest truth is the economy right now is so bad. And everybody that I talk to, is in kind of, cautious, if not depressing mode, mood. So I just went to the winery, to to cheer up the team. And they say that, hey, we prepared for it. We knew we knew it coming. We prep for it. We have no major issues. We our cash flow is safe. We can we can survive this. And and and then, yes, it's a it's it's really bad out there, but we would definitely not be the first group of wiring that died. No. That's true. That's true. And I I hope that is not a category you fall into, and I suspect it won't be because you are very ambitious and driven and smart. So I don't want to I don't want to paint a rosy picture. I said, woah, we're gonna grow. These are not realistic. Right now it's about the market. No. You're right. It's it's difficult. It's very difficult. And I think, you know, we're all very well aware of the of the big challenges that businesses face in China right now. So, you know, we we all keep our eye. We wanna see what you're up to in three years for for the big anniversary. But you know, in the meantime. Yeah. We survived the three years. We're definitely from a big party just to celebrate this party. Exactly. Exactly. You have to celebrate these things. But, you know, you personally have won so many awards, you know, for for everything that you've done, not just with the winery, but, with other things, I don't have time to list everything that you were Asian wine personality of the year in two thousand and twelve from drinks business, You've been nominated as a young global leader by the World Economic Forum. You know, one of the most influential people in Global wine industry by Decantor Magazine, one of the top five most innovative women in food and drink, in two thousand and fourteen. So these are these are really personal achievements as as well as the business, and the wine. So What's ahead for you? What plans do you have? You know, what would you like to accomplish in the next four or five years? We build a distillery making whiskey engine. Wow. I did not know that. And it's, gotta be we stopped production last year, and this project took me seven four seven, eight years because from planning to COVID kit delay for three years, to finally in production. It it's a very exciting project. We are officially open to public in August this year. So my core team and me, we are running this together. And, we all started in our twenties. And then, now we are all in our forties. So we were sitting there together because we started together more or less, they they they they are all in the wider in the company for, you know, sixteen, twenty years. So three of us are saying, so this time is our second time doing a start up. Can we make less mistakes this time? So the next one is, it's very exciting. It's our second start up operation. Project. And this time, it's even more challenging. Back then, we were fighting big brand who is state owned in China. Now, we are competing with people like Johnny Walker, and Cheah, you know, my team was, like, sometime when we were, like, drinking at night and talking about it, and they they asked me, are you out of your mind? You know who you're competing with? I said, yes, I know. But if you have a chance to join the rain and to join one fight, what do you want to do it? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You can't sit back on your laurels and do nothing. If you're gonna if you're gonna put some effort in, it may as well be you know, a good fight, a big fight. Exactly. So so so we're prepping for it. We, there's so many details. We it's again, I I don't know much about whiskey. The whole process is new again. And there were there are not many distiller in China. It's it's now risky picking up again now, but still is it's exactly like back in the days when you can't find distiller. I love Jen. We make Jim. I can't find someone who know a lot about Jim who want to be in production. So so these these are data driven. Oh gosh. So it's right back square one. No. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. It is very exciting. It sounds really exciting. What's it called? The new distillery? It's, it's my telstra Chinese name and Chinese, and here's her Chinese name mean, like, happy, busy, four people, four laughter type of thing. So we pick a Scottish Gallic word Kalkaley, the dad as the distillery name. The reason is because I think it's a similar meeting. Secondly, we got a lot of help from Scotland, and I feel it's nice to to play, triple in a way. And I I I like when it is in English, it's proper word rather than pinyin. Pinyin don't nobody understand what you're talking about. So the Chinese name is definitely very proper Chinese name, and then the English name is also a proper word. I love that it's called Kayley. I I lived for many years in England and used to go to Kayley parties where you go reeling and and do Scottish dancing. So, that is a very happy memory. I think that will have a very happy resonance with a lot of people who who come across a whiskey called Kayley. I think that's fantastic. Yes. That's the reason. Well, if you could measure a young Chinese woman right now who wants to enter the wine industry, what advice would you give her? You know, what do you wish somebody had told you back in two thousand and two when you were making your mistakes? I would say it still may sound, I think I would say follow your passion. I know it sound lame, but it's really true. Follow your passion, but have a realistic assessment, in terms of what how it impact your life, for example, financially. If I am I I can't imagine me being in wine business will make ton of money, like, if you are in AI. Right? So you have to have a realistic, expectation if you choose a fulfill your passion. What would be the outcome or sacrifices that you would have to make. But the thing is, the world is changing so fast. You wouldn't know, what what industry is gonna be better when when you and then you you think you this industry has a lot of future. You go into it without liking it. And then what if the industry has a downturn? Then then I think then you'll be very painful. You don't like the job. And, all the all the plus all the bonus that you're supposed to get from the job is gone as well. So I still think follow your passion, but knowing how it gonna impact your life, have a more, full range of assessment is the way to go. I think that's I think that's really good advice. If you love what you do, it doesn't feel like work. And if there's a problem, you have much more will to try and and solve that problem. When things are going wrong, it doesn't feel as awful if it's something that you love. So I I like that advice. If you if you really love what you're doing, you'll be able to face the challenges that that might come your way. So, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show today, Judy. It's been great talking to you. And you're you've given me so many insights into, you know, the wine business in China, and I'm really I'm really glad for that. Thank you so much. You come to visit up when we have Of course, I will. I would love too. And next time I'm in Singapore, I'm gonna have to do a squeeze through China. I I haven't been, yeah, to Hong Kong or to China since, two thousand and, yeah, before COVID two thousand and eighteen. So I'm ready to come. Yes. Jacob. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at Italian wine podcast dot com, SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.