Ep. 2177 Nikki Lamberti | Voices with Cynthia Chaplin

Twenty seventeen, we had actually just bottled about eight cases of this wonderful at home wine that we were really proud of, and that's in October because we're coming up on the seven year anniversary in a few weeks in October of twenty seventeen is when the horrible wildfires were all over here, Napa, and Sonoma. And, yeah, violent and scary. I think were your words, would not pick any other words to describe it than that. I will tell you the one thing that really helped us recover, rebuild, stay positive, and come back sort of better than ever to take the dream to the next level after all of that, was the support from friends and family. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I am so delighted to welcome Nikki Lambert to voices. Nikki is a certified wine professional and educator and a winemaker in Sonoma, California. And she's originally from New Jersey, and she's worked with Disney in hospitality and sales and fruitment for over twenty five years, and she credits that experience with giving her a really solid passion for food and wine. And she and her partner, Michael, own Solivanto, where they make handcrafted boutique wines, with what they describe as Cal italia flare, which I really love that. So thank you so much, Nikki, for making time. I know it's the middle of your harvest in California. I know it's very early in the morning, so I'm really delighted that you can be with me today. Oh my goodness. It's my pleasure, and we are mourning people here, especially during harvest. So this time is excellent. So thank you so much for having me. Brilliant. Well, first of all, before I forget, we wish you all the best luck with the harvest. I hope everything goes well. I know you've got your Sanjay going, so that's very exciting. We'll get to that later on. But, I wanna talk about your background a bit because it's so interesting. You know, your path from hospitality and recruitment at Disney and into the world of making your own wine has not been exactly your average straightforward. We started turning your hand to making wine in two thousand and fifteen using grapes from basically any vineyard contact that would let you go in and pick the grapes. So what what got you doing this? You know, it's completely unconventional. You know, this crazy journey into making wine. What what got you started doing that? Yeah. I I fear that my life has been unconventional and anything but average, but I guess I'm proud of that. So, yeah. So the the really, the switch from hospitality in Orlando and working for the Disney company to wine country came from one thing, and it was a trip. It was a visit as a wine drinker and a food and wine lover to Napa in two thousand and nine, and I would just was enamored with this place where I now live. And, I had no intentions of leaving Disney. I loved my career there, but I went on a second trip and a third trip to wine country, and that pretty much sealed the deal. So in two thousand and twelve, I relocated from Florida to California I'm lucky for you. There's there's a Disney in California, so that worked out. There is. There is. It's a lot smaller, but it's, still magical. But now I now I live and work in grown up Disney because there's more wine and less children, less lines. But I was enamored with the idea not only of, of living in wine country, but I was seeing when I was visiting these small estates where people's home was there, and they grew the vines there, and they made the wine right there, and they hosted guests at picnic tables in their backyard. And I loved that, and I loved the idea of one day being able to say, come to my home, let me cook for you. Oh, and by the way, see this bottle, I made this from these vines. You know, that that was really romantic to me, and that was probably the catalyst. Well, I think that's great. This is why we're friends because we think a lot sort of this this wanting to share and wanting to share your passion and wanting to share something you've actually made. So, really exciting. And, you know, your move was in two thousand and twelve, which was the same year that I moved from England to Italy. So pursuing my own little wine Disneyland. But by the end of two thousand and seventeen, you guys had three vintages under your belt. You were starting to really get the hang of it and wine making on a small scale, but disaster struck, unfortunately. The coffee park fire in Northern California wiped out your neighborhood, and it took everything including your house and your wines. I can't say how sorry I am about that. It it's a risk in Northern California, but, you know, when it touches someone that I know personally, it makes it even that more real. So the good news is that you've rebuilt since then, but what was it like for you at the moment in your wine journey, you know, to lose everything in such a really violent and and scary way? And how did you and Michael find the strength to get through that and rebuild? Yeah. It's been, it's been a journey for sure. So at that point in twenty seventeen, so I had met Michael shortly after moving out here, partner in life, partner in business. And we, at that point, were just making at home wine. Like you said, I would go in to, people that I knew that had vineyards in their backyards that said, oh, we're not using it for anything and really just started practicing and doing it at home in buckets in carboys, but making really drinkable wine, you know, as we were practicing and learning in preparation to one day be official and do a custom crush and, you know, purchase by the ton. So Yeah. In twenty seventeen, we had actually just bottled about eight cases of this wonderful at home wine that we were really proud of, and that's in October, because we're coming up on the seven year anniversary in a few weeks in October of twenty seventeen is when the horrible wildfires were all over here, Napa, and Sonoma. And, yeah, violent and scary, I think, were your words, would not pick any other words to describe it than that. I will tell you the one thing that really helped us recover, rebuild, stay positive, and come back sort of better than ever to take the dream to the next level after all of that was the support from friends and family community. Like a perfect example, we live on a cul de sac here in Sonoma County in Santa Rosa. So we're this neighborhood is pretty dense. We're not up in the hills. We don't live in a vineyard. We live in a neighborhood that could be anywhere USA. And we didn't really know our neighbors, you know, a wave here and there when you're putting out the trash, a friendly, hello, but we didn't know each other. And, because fourteen hundred homes in this one neighborhood everyone had the same experience that night. We all rebuilt together. And I can't take credit for this, but one of my neighbors started a wine Wednesday. And as we were all going through the permitting and rebuilding process, and everyone was at very different timelines and and how they were progressing. You would come and bring your patio chair and a and a solo cup or some wine and sit in the cul de sac and share stories, and it was sort of a a therapy group that was centered around wines, and that was amazing and very, strength building. So between that with the neighbors that were physically dealing with the same thing we did, and then friends, near and far, and family, the support that people gave us is really what what enabled us to move forward, figure out temporary housing, start the plans to rebuild in the same place. And now we're back in, and it'll be five years, that we are back in this new home. I'm I'm so happy for you. It's such a amazing story of recovery and, you know, community. Wine, wine does tend to help people build community and you know, coming together to rebuild your whole neighborhood is, you know, that's an epic example of, you know, really sort of personal and community strength. It's incredible. You know, you clearly have an amazing strength of character yourself, you know, not only did you spend two years rebuilding, but you also use the same time to complete your certificate of winemaking from UC Davis, which is nothing to sniff at. That's a a very difficult course. So you know, how did you balance your job at Disney rebuilding the house, doing your studying? You know, you you obviously are not somebody who does anything by halves. Yeah. And and in there too, I just have to add in the mix when I When I first moved here in twenty twelve, I also started working at a winery at Pride Mountain vineyards where I still work today as a wine educator and doing tours and tastings. Right? So that was in the mix as well. Here's what I'll tell you. Even as a even as a child, I had a lot of interest. So I was primarily a dancer, like a classically trained ballet dancer, but I never wanted to give up soccer and marching band and all the other things too. And luckily, I had parents that were very supportive of this multi passionate young Nikki. So I got really good with time management, even as a young kid. Like, I have memories of my mom picking me up at soccer practice, and I'm in the backseat changing into my ballet clothes, eating a sandwich. Because it was like, well, if you do that while you're in the car, you can make it to class on time. Right? And I think that just from a young age, I realized, like, if you're good with your time, you can do a lot of different things. So that's sort of projected into adulthood where I just, because there are so many things that I enjoy doing, and I don't wanna not do any of them, I've learned how to just piece it all together with time management and, you know, maximizing pockets of time here and there and getting up early and staying up late. And, and, and it just all works. And I know it's hard sometimes for people to understand. I I just ran into one of these neighbors who I became close with since the fires, at an event in our neighborhood this weekend. And she said, so how's Disney and and pride in in the podcasts and and and the wine and all the things you do, and I and I realized when people ask me that they just don't even really comprehend how it all pieces together. So it works for me, and that's just how I've been since since a young age. Wow. You should give a TED Talk. Just change your clothes in the backseat and eat his sandwich. That's the secret to life. It's inspiring. I love efficiency. That's amazing. Thank god. You wouldn't love you in the car too. Yes. I was not. Well, you know, luckily things picked up, you know, I know in around two thousand nineteen and you convinced, Joe Ramazante of Ramazante wines in Geyersville to, sell you a half a ton of Sanjay. Which you helped hand pick. So I'm I'm quite partial to Sanjay, so I'm happy about this story. But, you know, let's talk about this choice of great because I know you've got Italian heritage. Lamberti is obviously not, you know, your average American name. So your wine brand is also called Solivato. So this is clearly where your whole Cal, italo, concept comes to life. So fill us in about the the name you chose for the for the winery and why you went for San Giovanni and Sonoma, rather than something, you know, more easily available like a cabernet sauvignon or what have you. Yeah. And I can't take credit for that fun term Calital, but the first time I heard it about a decade ago, from another winery out here. I was like, oh, yes. That's totally what we are. I love that. I love it here. It's great. Yeah. It's it's great. And it is like a movement out here. I mean, we've connected at events with with other wineries who are kind of supporting that here. But, yeah, my my father's side of the family is from Sorrento and and Grignano. So I'm half Italian. And, we grew up in New Jersey in a very in Italian influenced household because my dad's side of the family was nearby. So a lot of big, loud Italian gatherings with a lot of food and wine and pizza and pasta and all of those things, even still to this day when I go back to New Jersey. So I've always been passionate So that kind of transpired into adulthood where, you know, Michael and I, when we would go out to dinner here in Sonoma County, we we found a mutual love of Italian wines. And we were at, Francis Ford Coppola's winery here in Sonoma County in the restaurant called Rostic about nine years ago, and they had a Sanjuvese on the menu that was from a local producer, Ramazati, which was just down the road. And we ordered it. We had never heard of it. And we were enamored with it. We we loved it. We loved how it paired with the food. It was bright and fresh, but still tasted like the chiantis that we were used to drinking. And that started our relationship with mister Joe Ramazani. We, the next weekend sought them out, went to their tasting room, tasted their wines. He also grows barbera, and Pino Gricio and a lot of other Italian grapes that you don't see a lot of here in Sonoma County. We joined his wine club and bought as much San Gervais each year as he would let us. And then when we knew that it was time to think about our first grown up wine, not at home wine, but real wine that we were potentially gonna sell. We knew that's what we wanted to make because, a, we love to drink it. And, b, there's not a lot of it here. So, yes, you said, well, why not just make Kabernet. I live in Cabernet Country. I work at a winery. That makes fantastic Cabernet. That's covered. Let's do something different. Let's have a differentiator where people ask me this question all the time. S sometimes they don't even know what it is. A lot of American wine drinkers are like Sandra what? And you say, you know, the the grape from Kianti, they say, oh, oh, oh, that the jug went on the table with the wicker baskets. Like, well, yes, that's what it used to be, but, you know, there's a lot of educating, but People love it because it's very versatile, and, and like I said, we make what we love to drink and share with others around the table. I think that's the best way for winemakers to go. You know, I I have a little dream of making some wine myself in the next few years, and I can't understand people who why would they would ever make something they don't want to personally drink. So, having chosen San Jevesi, and it is such a foodie wine, and I know you're a foodie person. So, it it really is one of those wines that cries out for food, and and it really suits everything, you know, about what you're doing and and who you are. So I don't know why, but it seems like the universe was sort of challenging you over these years because, you know, no sooner had that got going in in twenty nineteen, but then twenty twenty, of course, brought the global pandemic. And I know that Michael is a trauma nurse. So, you know, how did COVID affect your wine dreams? And and what did you do that year to keep each other and and the dream of becoming a grown up winery? You know, keep the wheels on. How did you get through it? Yeah. I mean, of course, it was such a crazy time for everyone and so many people, especially they're in Italy. Right? We watched you guys first. And then and then we dealt with it on our own. And it's interesting because, it took a while to, quote, arrive here in Northern California. So, you know, in in March and April of twenty twenty, everybody knowing that Michael worked in the emergency room. They're like, Oh, my gosh. Is he okay? He's such a hero, and he'd be like, we had no patients last night. Because not only were we not seeing COVID cases, we they weren't seeing any cases because everything was locked down. So car accidents and all the things that normally filled the were very quiet. So it was very weird. It was kinda like waiting. And then it came, but it took a while. Right? But, you know, his experience was was very different than mine. I was locked out. The winery that I worked at was closed. I was here in the home, but fourth grade soccer to ballet Nikki kicked in. And I was like, okay. I've been given this gift of time. Let's use this time to do something. So first, there was a lot of yoga, and then there was a lot of cooking, and then there was the sourdough starter Gladys, who we still have. She's four years old now, and we make killer pizza dough from her. But I used that time to learn how to build a website because I have this idea of a podcast and teaching people about one. And, I basically spent time on YouTube and figured out how to create SIP with Nikki, my website, where I started sharing tutorials about wine and and things like that. Also during that time, Pride Mountain Vineyards where I worked, I when we knew we were closing in March of twenty twenty, I I raised my hand and I said, listen, If we wanna do some virtual tastings, get on Zoom, Facebook live, I'm not shy. I love doing these things, right? And I'm okay on the computer. And sure enough, we started this weekly Facebook live at the winery And, you know, this winery has thousands of Facebook followers, so we had a really good, audience. And every Friday, we started shelter in place SIP SIP with Nikki, and, was me in my kitchen for about ten minutes long talking about a particular wine from this winery. And we did it for about eighteen weeks, and it grew to me interviewing our winemaker and our owner, and And, so it was a really positive silver lining out of that experience. It was successful for the winery. We kept in touch with our customers. We sold a lot of wine. We started announcing in the previous week what we're gonna do next week. They would order that wine. They could sip with us. So it's, I don't know that that would have happened if it wasn't for the the closure and for COVID. So there was certainly a a a purpose to it. Well, you're so right. There there were not many, but a few silver linings like that where you know, really interesting brainstorming ideas came out of of what was a pretty dark time. So I, you know, I just an off the wall question yet, do you ever sit still and do nothing? It was a good thing. Do you rest? Here's the thing. I sleep, like, eight to nine hours a a night. I get full night sleep. I do a lot of yoga, and part of the reason I love yoga, like I got into yoga, having a dance background, But now in a as as a busy adult, I love yoga because it's the one time that I'm still, and that I'm not multitasking if I'm doing it right. So that grounds me. You've gotta do a TED Talk on on time management and yoga. I mean, I think it would be a killer killer TED Talk. So well, I know nowadays, you're still buying grapes from Ramsey, and you've added a collaboration with, owner winemaker, Julie Johnson, to actually make your wines at her Trace Sabores winery, in Santa Helena. So Trace Sabores was the first wine club you ever joined. Tell us how the collaboration came to be. And, you know, what what does it mean for Solivato's future. What's going on? So when I talked about that first trip to wine country in two thousand nine, it was with my mom. And, when I when I gave the example of seeing the model of, oh, we live here in our vineyard this year and tasted our picnic tables, That was from a very specific place called Trace Sabaurus, which was one of the first wineries I ever visited. And that's where I met Julie Johnson, who's the current owner winemaker. This was back in o nine, and joined her wine club. And after I moved out here and started studying and working on my winemaking certificate, I was talking with Julie one day about think Michael and I are ready to really start purchasing fruit and take it to the next level. And she said, if you don't make your wine here with us under our roof, we will be offended. So that was the invitation that really made it it broke down the barrier to entry because to do a custom crush, there's a lot of facilities out here that will let you do it, but there is a minimum tonnage that you need to to do in order for them to take you on as a client. And it's big. I mean, sometimes it's five tons, ten tons, fifteen tons, and we were just not financially ready to do that. We started with a half ton that we picked ourselves with Joe Ramizati. So The, the invitation to make our wine at Tris Aborez, which I will be there as soon as we end this call today, punching down my Sandra Vasi really made all of this possible for us to start on a small scale while we still both have our day jobs and to gain this momentum. Plus it's just a beautiful place. It's a special place. She's organic. She's green certified, and all of that was very important to me as well, from a sustainability standpoint. I needed to make it in a place that aligned with that. My degrees in environmental science from many years ago. So just it all just made sense that that's where we needed to be making our line. Well, perfect. And and I can see sort of how this is leading you on to the next steps, you know, looking at at the goals for Solivanto, you know, you're already growing slowly, slowly, and the first vintage, you produced two hundred and eighty six hand labeled, hand waxed, hand numbered, you know, beloved little baby fossils, and it's sold out. So by the twenty twenty one vintage, you were at triple that with almost nine hundred bottles. So you're just harvesting now your six vintage, and you've added petite Sarah, and I know some Gernache, as well. So what's the dream? Where do you see Solivato in sort of five or six years? It's interesting because the dream has shifted over the years. I think the initial dream of having the estate with the vineyard with the picnic cables where you host people. Not that I wouldn't love that one day, but through living here in California now for twelve years, I have a better understanding of the financial implications of having something like that and just the the expense of living where we live. So I don't know that that will necessarily happen, but we're okay with that. We do wanna have a tasting room one day, and we'll probably continue in this custom crush method to grow the portfolio. And I would like to have and I'm going after as we speak, our first restaurant placements, because up until this vintage, we've been a hundred percent direct to consumer through our website, which is not hard to do at two hundred and eighty six bottles and then six hundred and thirty four bottles. And but, our twenty twenty three vintage, which will finish bottling and and start selling next year, we've got two hundred cases, which is enough to work with. It's enough to actually look for some restaurant, opportunities. So we're growing slowly slowly. As you say, love that slowly slowly. We are still growing. We would like to have a taste team on where we could entertain people. And, I have some very close, also strong female winemakers in my, circle here who have similar things where they're starting their own brands. And we talk about having, like, a combined tasting room one day to feature small women winemakers in Sonoma County. So this is bubbling. It's at the idea stage, but It's fermenting. Yes. Fermenting. It's at about, eighteen dicks right now. But that's probably more realistic of what the future of solo Vatto looks like at this point unless we should win the lottery. Well, exactly. As as all of us are, but is you should have a tasting room because you are darn entertaining and you your, you know, the years and years of hospitality that you've been working at with Disney just bubbles out of you, you know, so effervescently. You you really you should be in that space. People should be able to come and taste your wine and enjoy, you know, everything that you're bringing to it, not just wine, but sort of your whole philosophy. So, I cannot let you go without mentioning as you sort of hint to that before. That you are a fellow podcaster. So I love talking to fellow podcasters, and you started SIP with Nikki in twenty twenty three. So I know you went sort of from the Facebook live to the podcast Tell us about what you're doing now. Yeah. So through the COVID, Facebook's at the winery where I was working, I received so much feedback from people who said, Thank you so much. You give us something to look forward to every week, and you really explain why in a way that makes it just less intimidating and less confusing. And so that reinforcement is really what gave me the push. I had the idea of the podcast for a while. Again, like I said, clearly not shy, love to talk, love to express, but more importantly, love to explain and teach. Right? That's always been in my blood, whether it was Disney orientation or or wine. I'd love to help people understand and and find joy. So that's what all kind of converged to make the podcast a reality last year. So, yeah, it's SIP with Nikki. I have weekly episodes. It's me. I am the host I am the producer. I had a friend who has some audio production background who helped me get started and sort of taught me how to do it all. And it vary, it varies from week to week. It'll be shorter episodes with me, maybe just breaking down a particular topic like aging wine, decanting wine, what is pet nut, which I did last week, and then other episodes will be interviews, kind of like this, where I'm interviewing the interesting winemakers and chefs. And then I also take it on the road, So when I was in Italy this summer, when I was in Sicily, we did some wine tasting and and different visits. And I have a portable mic that I take on the road, and I record the sounds of the place. And we just did that for our harvest on September ninth when we picked our Santa Vasi. Michael and I had microphones on the whole day. So you hear the pick where we're in the vineyard, and then you hear the sorting, and then you heard me get in there with my feet, a little hint. So we like to kinda bring people into the field with the audio and let them hear what it's all about. I love that. That's fantastic. And and I like that authentic style where It's really you. It's not you're not hiding between behind some smoke and mirror. It's it's really you. That's kind of how I like to do my podcast. Whatever topic I'm talking about or whoever I'm talking to. I try to keep it as real as I can. I I don't like to high behind anything. So I'm I'm gonna have to tune in to SIP with Nicki myself and catch a catch a few of those. But, you know, before we say goodbye, and I know you need to get back out harvesting and and getting over to Trace Sabores, but I wanna talk about your favorite Italian wines, because you've got great Italian background, and I know you love Italy so much. And when we spoke prior to the show a couple of weeks ago, I recommended a wine to you that I know you managed to get somehow. I don't know how you managed to do it, but, Alcantara in Sicily on Aetna is one of my favorite wineries, and I recommended a new tourna to you, which is a Narello Maskaleesi red wine, but it's been vinified white. And a naturna means night. So it's a a white wine made from a red grape, and you've got it there. Alcantara was named the winery of the year at Granvini Italy in twenty twenty three, and their winemaker, Salvatori Rita is a good friend of mine. So, I won't hear what you think about it. So have you got it in front of you? I think you do. I do. Well, to the side of me. Yeah. And again, for first of all, I should have done this right off the bat. I have to thank our mutual friend, Doctor. Hobie Wedler, for connecting us. And, months ago, he said, yes. Chow. Chow to Hobie. He's like, you guys have to meet you have so much in common, your love of Italian wine. So that's how how you and I got connected. But, a few months ago, I'm opening my bottle as we speak, a few months ago, in preparation of interviewing Karen McNeil, author of the wine bible, on my podcast. On SIP with Nikki, we always SIP a wine. And even if my guest is on the other side of the world, we try to SIP the same wine just like you and I are doing today. And I was getting ready to interview Karen McNeil, who is also a instructor and teacher of mine. And I asked her what wine we should taste. And she said, you pick. And I was like, oh my gosh, the pressure of picking a wine to taste with Karen McNeil, right, who's very responsible for my education in this field. Mind do. Right? For for so many of us. I mean, she's amazing. So I was, in countdown mode to my vacation to Italy and to Sicily at that time. So I had sicilian wine on the brain, but I also know that Karen McNeil loves sparkling wine. So I was able to find from the producer, Margo, another great producer, a sparkling, and it was the Norello Muschalacy grape. And I will be totally honest with you as much as I love Italian wine, Study wine, been there. I was not familiar with this grape. I'd not been to Sicily before. I had been to Tuscany and other regions. So I had my first Norella Moskalesi in the sparkling wine form a couple months ago. Then I went to Sicily, went to Myrgo, tasted there and had it in its red form, and it brought me to tears, and made me cry, which wine sometimes does. Yeah. And there is actually a a sip of Nikki Podcast episode, the the best day ever. It's called in Sicily where you hear this whole thing unfold. So I've really had Norella Moskalesi on the brain. I've been reading about it and learning about it. So when you and I spoke and I was sharing that with you. You said, oh, I know just the wine we need to taste. You have to taste Dorillo Muskaleesi as a white. And I was like, okay. And how I got it, because it was not easy. I started googling and looking at all of the different wine merchants and retailers and We have to give a shout out to Chow Daniel. He is the owner of wines from Italy in Ohio. In Ohio, of all places. I was just in Ohio last week. Oh, you are. That's right. I should have connected you guys next time. Next time. I found him through wine searcher. His store was the only one that came up in the United States of America that had this wine that you sent me on a search for And he so kindly shipped it to me. And now I'm part of his mailing list, and he has a lot of fantastic wines. So shout out to Chow Daniel wines from Italy. He is really amazing at what he's able to get and make accessible to us as far as Italian wipes. Wow. Incredible. It's a good thing I didn't know he was in Ohio when I was there last week because I would have bought out everything he had. I'm so excited to taste this and the the label itself is just beautiful. Yeah. The artwork on all of Alcantara's bottles are so interesting. The owner is, a very keen art appreciator who holds, art festivals every couple of years and competitions for local artists, and he always has local artists doing the labels. So it's a it's a lovely label sort of depicting almost a Romeo and Juliet seen on a balcony, really, really lovely modern style of of graphic art, very pretty. Here's what I have to say. So I I waited to to even smell this for the first time and until today. I bought he sent me two bottles. Thank you, Daniel. And this is the first time I'm opening it and smelling it. And and my first impression is this is Italy. Right? So if I knew nothing about it, you just said, Nikki, here's a lovely white wine, The first thing I would say was this is not California. Well, in in homage to our interview today, I went back and found my first tasting note of Alna, the very first time I tasted it. So I've got it here in front of me. So, I I agree with you. And for me, it really says Sicily, that very say line lovely note of it. So I will I will wait for you to say what you think about it. And I love too that now that I've actually finally been to Sicily, right, when when we can say a wine smells of a place or taste of a place in the salinity because of the ocean, it's like That means so much war to me now as a point of reference now that I've been there. Exactly. Exactly. We are not in California anymore. But it's viscous. Right? So I think I was a there's a nice fresh acidity on the finish, but there's a weight to it. For sure. We're and it's not a chardonnay. Yes. Almost like, via like that unctuous sort of via oily, but in a good way, we we use that note. I know that word can be sort of off putting, but I I love that. My my word is it's textural. I was not expecting that. Like beeswax. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It has that that grip on your palate, that lovely texture to it. So It's also I mean, knowing Norella Maskalece is a red grape. Right? So and knowing what I know about winemaking, they must be pressing this juice off those beautiful red skins immediately because there is no color here. There is no hint of of pink, you know, or rose or anything like that. It is very pale, which is also was surprising to me because I know too much, and I know Norella Maskalacy being a red grape. Right? So it's it's surprising. So I love the I'm gonna work backwards and talk about the finish first because that's what I'm experiencing right now. It has a very long finish longer than most white wines. It's hanging out for me right now still, and it's been about I don't know, twenty seconds since that went down. And and if I think about it, that's not surprising coming from a red grape. Right? We just have all of those phenolics and things packed in there. Even if we take the skins away, I would expect a white made from a red to have that mouth coating and that finish, even though there's no tanner. Yeah. What I would call it a red wine in a white dress? Yeah. I mean, and I just love on the label. It says, you know, I'll look Naturna, Norella Moskaleesi and Bianco. Right? So it tells you right there. It's in its white dress in its white form. It's beautiful. It's soft, but rich at the same time. And that sort of beeswaxi note that we picked up, I get that on the palette too, not just the nose. There's a floral note for me. There's some stone fruit in there. If you forced me to say, what is this most like another white wine that you know? I would go into that aromatic family like Vionier Gewerge demeanor, riesling. Like, I would put it in that category. I know the sicilians are like, oh my god. He did not just say that, but just speaking in everyday wine wine drinker terms. It's probably the flavor profile and the aromatics are closer to that for me. Than sauv blanc chardonnay, even pinot grigio. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For me, I I'm looking back at my first note. So I've I've this is one of my favorite wines, and I drink it not all the time, but, you know, with with a relative degree of frequency, but looking back to how excited I was on my very first tasting note of it a couple of years ago, I've got, you know, that silky saline ripple across the palette and herbalness, some sage, and that sort of almost a a nori sushi wrap that kind of a sweetie note. And for me, it's it's more than those, citrus oils, like the sharp side of a grapefruit peel and chedro, you know, Italy's very unique chedro citrus that kind of lemon with a big thick skin quite bitter on the on the piss. And just a tiny just a tiny little note, again, in the finish like you, of an unripe white cherry. You know, those those lovely play of sour, bitter, you know, not a big luscious ripe fruit, really in the essential oils of citrus, with that sagey sushi wrap kind of same, say line note to it, and and the texture of it. I I find that wine just endlessly delightful. I've used it for all sorts of pairings and presented it and taught with it. It's good fun line, and it's really lovely. I'm so glad you got it. Oh my gosh. Again, thank you to our friend, Daniel, in Ohio for making it happen. I was worried we weren't gonna be able to do this together, but it's so helpful when you can taste it together and and with someone who has such great notes about it. I love your nori seaweed note because I love sushi, and I get that that sort of salty salinity almost umami, but more of, like, a, like, a, like, the ocean in your mouth, I say, in a good way. I'm curious you talked about you love to pair this with different things. Do you like to pair this with sushi? Because I think it would be fantastic. Yes. I do. Yes. I do. Also with Thai food. It's amazing with Thai green curry. Just just saying. Oh my gosh. That might happen tonight with the rest of this bottle after we finish our long day here. That might be happening tonight. Thank you for the idea. You're welcome. Well, it's just been a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on. And I'm I'm gonna have to I'll have to sort of flash bomb and sips with Nikki and come on there and chat with you. Well, you're up next. So we're gonna reciprocate, and I would love to have you as a guest because I think my listeners would love to hear about your journey and living in Italy and all the things that you do. And I just can't wait to continue our new friendship. Brilliant. Me too. And one of these days, we're going on that Disney cruise. Yes, ma'am. Oh, that's right. You love Disney. Yes. We're going on the Disney Mediterranean cruise, and we will eat our eat and drink our way through the Mediterranean Disney style. We will knock that cruise. Everyone will reach it for us. So thank you so much, Nikki. Have a great day. Thank you, Chow. Thank you. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcasts in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. 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