Ep. 2191 Janice Williams Brockenberry | Voices with Cynthia Chaplin

And there does seem to be, you know, like this fear almost of of cannabis really taking away from the wine industry and being kind of like I don't know, like this new big shiny thing that's gonna be here to stay. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences, working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello. Welcome to voices. This is your hosts in Dia Chaplin. And today, I am so happy to welcome Janice Williams Brockenberry to voices. It's taken us a few weeks to put this together. So I'm seriously happy that we're gonna have this conversation today. Janice is a freelance journalist living in New York City where she writes about a myriad of topics, including national news and pop culture and cannabis industry, but most recently, the global wine industry has been her focus. So her Instagram, which is at brown girl drinks wine, awesome name. Love that. Is a melting pot of wine stories and information for all of her readers and all the people who follow her on social. So thanks so much for coming on today, Janice. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Well, it's a huge pleasure for me, and your story is is really interesting. So you've got a bachelor's degree in journalism and communication. So you're clearly in the right line of work. Good job. And over the past eight years, you've covered this, you know, massive variety of topics from TV and film and fashion and breaking news and really kind of all sorts of stuff. So what made you decide to settle down with wine? I mean, we all like wine. So It's like the number one thing. Right? I was really enjoying drinking the wine. And I think my curiosity about more of the backstory, about wine just kinda started to grow as a journalist, I am always thirsty for information and wanting to know about the people and the places and the stories that kinda comprise whatever my my focus is on, whether that be wine or or or television or anything, really. Like, I wanna know who's who and what are they doing and why are they doing it? And I think you know, having experienced so many different facets of news. I I kinda got to a point where I was ready to, shift into something that I can kinda, like, make my own lane and, you know, something that I was really interested in, something that I knew that I would continue to enjoy learning about over the years, something that I didn't feel would give me the same kind of burnout that I had experienced, on the other side of the tracks covering news and all of that pop culture stuff, and wine just kind of fit. You know, there was always a person in some place using a piece of land and, like, just really digging deep into the dirt and trying to make something beautiful out of it. And I I thought that was something worth really kinda digging into. Well, yeah, I I get that. And it's and, you know, wine does tend to be stories of, you know, strength and fortitude and and success. And at the end of the day, there's wine. So it is often a little bit more uplifting than your average news story, particularly, you know, in the past year or so. So, I can see I can see the appeal. Yeah. Exactly. And it still has a little drama. Yeah. There's still a little drama. You know, every once in a while, you've got a nice little wine scandal and some things happening in the industry that kinda has everybody and in a shock, like, what's going on. You know? My friend, I live in Italy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It there's drama for sure. So, yeah, you know, and especially, like, with with everything that's happening with, like, climate change and how people are really having to rethink how they're they're tending to their grapes, growing their fruit, and or even on the consumer side, how they're purchasing their wine, and how the economy is affecting their ability to do that and all these things. There's always some kind of drama surrounding it. It's so true. It's so true. And that now, you know, you're in the States, of course. So you're dealing with the neo Prohibitionism much more than we are in Europe. We're pushing back massively hard. How how's that what's it like in the New York wine scene? Is I know it's come over October. So, you know, I've, you know, friends of mine within the industry are behind that, that concept. So has has that really taken off in New York where you are in your scene? I think I'm only just now starting to see it. This is like the first real instance of come over October that I've noticed. Like, it's definitely on my social media, but I feel like New York, New York is its own little bubble. Right? I mean, even when you think about the neo prohibitionism that's happening in, like, across the states, you know, we're not really seeing a whole lot of that here. I think, you know, it's like it's like people are we're seeing people cut back for sure. I think there's a a bigger emphasis on moderation right now. I think there's a bigger emphasis on wellness in New York right now, and people paying attention to what they're drinking, but not necessarily just let's annihilate alcohol altogether. But let's be more thoughtful. Let's be more conscious about what we're drinking and what we're sharing with one another. And I do feel like there's still this sense of, like, people still wanna be with other people. They still wanna have their live vision, whatever that may be, but they wanna do it in a responsible kind of way. They wanna be sure about what they're putting into their bodies. And I think that's been a bigger thing here in New York City specifically. But, you know, there are inklings of it. We're seeing a lot more NA spaces pop up in New York, but the NA spaces that are popping up in New York aren't necessarily to take away from the spaces that are serving alcohol. They're more so just like, hey, we have this too. You know, it's still a little bit of something for everybody. And I think that with the diversity of New York, with the amount of people that come from so many places that are looking for so many different things, it'll be a little bit slower to take, but it is something that, you know, we're seeing. We're hearing it. People are definitely talking about it and paying attention to what's going on. But I don't think it's as extreme as some of the things I've been reading about in other places. Yeah. That's really interesting. And that's that that's very heartening for me to hear because in Europe. We hear all of these, you know, sensationalized scare stories. You know, nobody in America's ever gonna drink alcohol ever again. And it it's scaring it's scaring us over here. Of course, the EU is is asking France and Italy and Spain to rip up some vineyards. So there's a lot of, as you say, there's always something going on in wine. But I'm I'm glad to hear that New York is, you know, sort of a slow burn reaction rather than a knee jerk. Panic reaction to to these, you know, world health things. And, that that makes sense to me. And, of course, New York's much more of a cosmopolitan place than a lot of other places, so probably a bit more of, a thoughtful intellectual approach to it. So I'm I'm happy to hear that. But you've covered the cannabis industry too. So, you know, tell us how you compare that to the wine industry. You know, I know that young consumers are drinking less wine, imbiving more in cannabis. I've interviewed Jamie Evans, the herb some, I know that in the US, at least there's some crossover between wine and cannabis and hospitality. So how do you view these trends in consumption? What's happening between wine and cannabis in the US? Because it's interesting. There's cannabis infused drinks. There's all sorts of stuff going on that isn't really happening here. Tell tell us about that. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a lot of talk about, you know, what's happening in the cannabis industry. We're seeing it firsthand there. So many different items available on the market now and people are utilizing them. And there does seem to be, you know, like this fear almost of of cannabis really taking away from the wine industry and being kind of like I don't know, like this new, big shiny thing that's gonna be here to stay. I think that there's room for both, but the approach to cannabis is always gonna be different than the approach to wine. Wine is something that a lot of people have in very situational kind of context, whereas like cannabis is a lot of times used for relaxing purposes. It's kinda like just a different industry of its own, people aren't drinking wine for the same reasons that they're dabbling in marijuana, you know? Well, and it's interesting. You know, you said, you know, it's this shiny big new thing. Cannabis is not a new thing out. Yeah. It's been around a lot older than you. It's been around, you know, a lot longer. I think the legalities that are happening in the US with so many states passing legislations that make it re recreational that kinda drives up the appeal. Yeah. That's the difference. Now it's legal. Yeah. But I don't yes. It's gonna be some competition. Right? Like, because the cuss the consumer that's like, you know what, I don't ever wanna drink wine. I'd rather just smoke or or have an edible or whatever. Like, that's not the wine consumer, and I think that that's okay. You know, I think what it is is that we have to get to a point where we're identifying our demographic and doing things to hold on to the to that group and to keep them enthusiastic about what's happening. You know, different things are gonna appeal to different people. For sure. For sure. And of course, you know, you still can't smoke in a bar or a restaurant. So Exactly. Exactly. You can't smoke in most public places in general. Yeah. Yeah. Different options for for different things. That's interesting. So it's like we do we I hear it all the time. I hear a lot of, like, retailers are afraid and distributors are worried about what cannabis is gonna do. But I don't really know if that's the way that we should go about tackling this. I think it should be a way in which we can appreciate that it exists now, and find a way to work with it, but also find a way to really hone in on our consumers, you know, and make sure we're catering to what it is that they're looking for so that we can keep them, you know, because there are plenty of people who might enjoy some cannabis, but also, you know, when they go to dinner, they might want a glass of wine too. And we shouldn't we shouldn't be expecting that just because this this new industry is really popping up. It's thriving. It's making a lot of money and it will continue to do these things, but it's like, how can we work together? How can how can both things can exist? Yeah. That's absolutely true. And, yeah, people, different different situations, lead people to make different choices of, of what they want to enjoy in that moment. So I think your approach is really interesting, and it I I find what's going on with the cannabis industry in the US fascinating because it's much more open to creativity and experimentation and you know, doing cannabis dinners and all of these sorts of things that we aren't doing in Europe. So, I'm sure it won't get here, but it it isn't yet. So I think the the one key thing is they're like really figuring out how to engage with their consumer base. And, also, they're not afraid to try different things to to get people interested. And, and I think that that's kinda where wine has suffered a lot. It's like, it's a lot of the same mold, same mold, you know, in these tastings and and and a dinner. And it's like, well, there's so much more we could be doing. True words. Yeah. You've opened the door to to my next question because, you know, I know you've said your goal is to make wine more accessible and relatable for consumers of all backgrounds, which is exactly what my goal is too. You know, here we are on the podcast talking about this. What do you see as the barriers to new people who want to get into wine? So I agree with what you just said. A lot of a lot of the way we market wine is same old, same old, so we aren't catching people, but there are people who want to get into wine, and they're struggling to get in. So, you know, what do you see the challenges for them as being, you know, especially people of color, young women, you know, how do you think we can push the doors open for for more people to get involved with wine, even just to just to taste it and try it or even to get, you know, thinking about it as a career? Yeah. I mean, definitely representation is probably like the number one thing, right? Because if you have people who are representative of a specific group, they're gonna be able to come to you with ideas that would help attract customers from that group. Right? So that's like the number one thing for me. It's like let's get more people in certain rooms that can help make these decisions that will bring in and attract younger people, people from different backgrounds. And then also, like, we need to make these things a little more fun and a little less serious. You know, like, not to say, that wine shouldn't be taken seriously. It is a agricultural product. It has been here almost since the beginning of time, you know, people who have been drinking I wine, almost longer than they've been able to drink waters safely, you know, but there's so many different, like, fossess to it that are so all encompassing of every culture that I feel like we need to make sure we have people on board that can kinda tap into these different segments and can bring ideas to the table that will help attract people. So that's the the number one thing is just representation, making it a little bit more fun, meeting people where they are instead of trying to get them to where you are in the wine journey. You know, a lot of it of, what I hear people talk about it, even what I do is, like, educationally based. You want people to know what they're drinking, and we are in a time where people want to know where they're drinking, but I still think that there's a way to do that that doesn't feel like you're just, like, forcing a bunch of frou frou information down their throats. Right? That's right. Nobody wants to go have a glass of wine and have to listen to a lecture at the same time. So Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I feel you on this one. Yeah. My my experience as a sommelier and a wine educator and a writer and a presenter, I find that language, you know, as we would say, is one of the biggest door slammers for people who don't know a lot out wine. As you said, nobody wants to have a free, free lecture while they're trying to drink their glass wine. So how much of of a rule do you think language plays in attracting new consumers and making you know, making the whole thing more comfortable or the total reverse if the language isn't right. You know, how do you think we can change wine language? You know, that's such a good question. And it's one that I've been thinking about, and have read many, like, thought pieces on this very, topic. I think that language surrounding wine is super important. Mostly because throughout history, wine has been described in a very specific way. And, like, throughout history, wine has, like, really high quality wine, has been subscribed to very specific, demographics of people and classes and things of that nature. Oh, yeah. Old fat white guys from Northern Europe. Exactly. You know? And I mean, they you've been thinking about, like, the monarchy had the best wine, but the people in the taverns were also drinking wine. Exactly. Exactly. That's such a good point. Yeah. Such a good point. I think that we have to find a a way to talk about wine that is just more inclusive and more in recognition of people from different places and different backgrounds. It's like not to mention why it's subjective and what I taste isn't what you're gonna taste. And What I wanna pair my wine with is not necessarily what somebody else from somewhere else is gonna wanna pair their wine with. It's just there's a way we can talk about wine and express how we react to it and how we feel about it. That doesn't necessarily have to put it on some, like, super high pedestal that make people feel uncomfortable or, like, they don't know enough to be able to enjoy it. You know? I think that tasting notes. And I I feel like I've been seeing a lot more, like, winemakers, like, they're not necessarily mentioning fruit types when they're talking about the profile. They're talking a little bit more about the texture and what this wine feels like. I just wrapped up my stint at a retail shop here in New York City can buy wine and spirits where I've spent the last two years helping a lot of New York university students pick out wine and some of our, like, older people in the community that will come in and shop. And anytime they ask me about a specific wine, you know, I wasn't necessarily going, oh, it tastes like a basket of cherries, a real wire or something. I don't know. It's it's it's more of like, oh, this is a great wine for drinking right now tonight. If you're looking for something that's no fuss, but you want something solid that's gonna be nice to drink, but you don't have to think too much about it. Or if you're looking for something really elegant and or sharp or, you know, like, just changing the way we're describing the wines that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with flavor profiles that people may or may not be aware of depending on what background they're from, what culture they're from, because somebody who's coming from Ghana or somebody from Thailand or somebody from the UK is not necessarily gonna know these specific fruit sets that we're using to talk about wine, you know, but everybody can relate to, like, oh, if you're looking for a wine to drink, on a Tuesday night when you're tired and you're ready for it to be Saturday, this is what you should try. Like, you know, it's Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think it takes the it takes the sort of intimidating element out of things. And and I think I it's so important. You know, I teach I teach university students on their semester abroad. So I have that sort of same age group, but my my private clients and and people in the in the industry sector that I work with are, of course, all different ages and stages. So playing into more than one approach and more than one perspective is very important. So I completely agree. So, you know, with with Brown Girl drinks wine, your your Instagram, you know, how are you getting this message out to your to your followers? You know, what what are you doing with Brown Girl drinks wine? What are you doing on there? On an average week, what are you posting? A lot. Well, before I was pregnant and unable to really indulge in one, I was regularly showcasing things that I would drink, was drinking tonight, kinda, like, just showing people like, oh, this is how I go about purchasing wine. These are the things that I'm in the mood for. So this is what I'm gonna grab kind of situation. It's also been a great place for me to showcase my work and let people see, like, these are the the aspects of the greater wine industry that I'm following or researching or looking into so that I can be up to date on what it is that I'm drinking and what's happening within that world. So a lot of it is more, like, more personal, like, a personal approach to, like, hey, this is just what I'm doing. And if you're interested, you should check it out, kind of situation, you know. And are you getting are you getting a lot of feedback that way? I mean, I know I know you're expecting babies. So first of all, congratulations. And it's it's gotta be hard to be doing, you know, wine work when you can't drink the wine, but you know, are you getting a lot of, engagement with that? Because you have such this open style. You know, you're really approachable. You're really upfront and honest about what your message is. So are people engaging? What are what's the feedback like? Yeah. No. I I get DMs and people asking a little bit more for specific information about what I'm drinking, or they've read something that I've written. And it's like, oh, this kinda opened my eyes to a different approach or or wine that I had no idea even existed. Like, a lot of what I do with Brown girl drinks wine is just show show my followers and show my peers that there's more to wine than what they may have known about from watching their parents drink. Right? Like, it's a very big it's a niche industry, but it's a very big world when it comes to, like, the types of wine and the producers are so much to explore So a lot of it is just like helping them understand that these things do exist and they're available if they know how to to look for it. If they if they just go try to look for it. So I get a lot of feedback from from my my peers and my followers regarding that instance. Like, people seem to appreciate when I do post, especially if it's, like, some random, I don't know, Austrian wine that I'm drinking. And then they're like, oh, like, who knew Austria May one? Like, yes. Everywhere makes one. Everywhere makes one. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Because it's, like, my my my Instagram, my page has such a, like, conversational tone and and it is kinda open and friendly and just like kinda, hey, this is what I'm up to. What are you up to? I think people are more comfortable approaching me. It doesn't feel intimidating to them. I just am a regular person from around the way that just so happens to know about wine, and I'm just trying to share it with everyone else. Exactly. Exactly. Well, it's I this is what I love about what you're doing because you're at the beginning of your career, you know, kind of in wine. And you do have this really nice approachable, really open style. You're not trying to be somebody you aren't, which is lovely in wine, to discover somebody who's not trying to be something they aren't, but You know, with your experience and your background, you know, breaking into the world of wine journalism and social media, what advice, you know, what what words of wisdom can you pass on to, you know, young people who want to seek out a career in the wine industry street? What, you know, what's your experience been like? What would you say do's and don'ts? Well, dude, number one is to just kinda go for it, you know. When I first kinda started writing about wine, I really wasn't supposed to be. I was still very much covering news, and there wasn't a lot of appetite for wine coverage. So I just kinda was like, alright, I'm gonna find a way to write about this stuff I was kind of freelancing on the side, you know, finding a way to learn how to write about this topic that I was really interested in. And I think a lot of times people are in their own way. They wanna try something new and they don't know how to get into it. It's just just just do it, you know, look at those publications, and maybe we can't all just go jump and write for a wine spectator but there are plenty of other websites and outlets that are kind of interested in that kind of coverage, do the research, find out who you need to contact, and and just put yourself out there. Like, that's number one. Do that. Don't pretend that you know a lot if you don't know a lot. You have to be honest about where you are in your wine journey. And what it is that you're looking to get out of continuing it and going further as a writer. I know a quite a few people who they didn't have any background as as journalists at all. And now they're writing for several different food and wine publications, you know. So but they were clear and honest about where they were in their abilities. And I think editors really appreciate that. You know, and also I would say don't jump into just doing anything for anybody. I see a lot of people, like, doing wine influencing and they're, like, partnering up with whoever knows who. And, like, oh, this wine is sponsored and it's like they don't like the wine. They're not really interested in wine and everything about the little ad. Yeah. Personal integrity is a big deal in the world of wine. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Just keep it real because you're talking about a product that somebody's gonna put in their body. And they also have to taste and drink, and they're spending money on it at a time where, like, people don't have money to waste. So just like being authentically you and being honest, about what it is you're trying to do and where you're trying to go, I think those are like the most important things, staying true to yourself. Well, I think that's that is a really, really good mantra, especially in the world of wine, and and I think any serious business sector, you know, there are always people who are pretending, and it doesn't it backfires. It doesn't get you far, in wine. It certainly doesn't get you far. You have to have your, you know, you've gotta have the the now to really mean what you're saying and to believe in what you're saying. So I I love what you've had to say about this. I'm really excited see where you go with Brown Girl drinks wine. And I wanna give you our huge, huge, a little bit early. Congratulations. Can't wait to see. And, and here, and we wish you a safe and happy delivery and and a beautiful new sun to share wine with. My my daughters and my sons are grown up. So, I can share wine with them now. They always came to Vineyards with me when they were little kids. So wine is one of those things you can share with your family and your friends no matter what age they are. My husband doesn't drink, and he's a photographer. So he likes to come to vineyards. So wine does have wine has something for everybody. I believe it. Yeah. I'm very excited to, you know, as he grows up and gets to drinking age, of course, help him develop his palate. But I'm pretty sure there's plenty of things that we can do to kinda explore and expose him to. For sure, I wanna be walking around, like, the vineyard just seems like a perfect place for a kid to just run around. It is. It is. Well, I hope you have lots of champagne on tap when he's born. And, and take care, Janice. Thanks so much for giving me your time today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. Thank you for listening, and remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. 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