Ep. 2372 Tish Wiggins | Voices with Cynthia Chaplin

The community itself has been absolutely amazing and so embracing. And Napa has came a long way. And I think that the majority of Napa is reading the tea leaves People of color are not gonna stop coming out here. They're, you know, they they are still coming out here to explore. And, also, there is a market for people of color that are buying wine. So Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals. Discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is your host Cynthia Chaplin. And today, I'm so happy to welcome Tish Wiggins to voices. Tish is well known for her brand Tish around town and her celebration of women in Wine Napa Valley to work. She is a wine educator, an event curator, a speaker and a wine writer, and she's been featured in Forbes Magazine, Vinepeare, and wine enthusiast amongst others. So thank you so much for getting up early and, talking to us today, Tish. Oh, thank you so much, Cynthia, for having me. It's not a problem with getting up soup early here in Napa, but thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. We were just talking that, when we when I was looking for you, we discovered that you're a native of Cleveland, just like me, and, you didn't stay in Ohio and neither did I. So I moved east and and ended up in Italy while you moved south and west and ended up in Napa. So I think we both made a big improvement on Cleveland, not to disc Cleveland, but, you know, there's better places. So let's talk a little bit about your wine journey. You know, you started out in business, and you have over twenty years of experience with consulting and managing multi million dollar projects for major financial institutions, including Bank of America, and Citibank and TD Bank and BMO to name just a few of them. So what got you into wine? I mean, with that kind of a career, you'd rather need wine, but how and when and why did you decide to completely pivot into the wine sector? Well, Cynthia, you hit the nail on the head, you know, working at banking. It can drive you to drive drive you to drink a little bit more wine than normal. But, honestly, basically, my love for food is what actually kinda really got me into wine. You know, I was, you know, growing up, you know, kinda adulting, I call it in Atlanta, and, you know, getting into food, loving great food, starting to travel the world a little bit, And then wine was always just there. And so then I wanted to just continue to pour a little bit more into it and pour a little bit more into it and also let it pour a little bit more into me too at the same time. You know? But I just wanted to just really started to explore it more and more. So in twenty eighteen, I decided that I wanted to get certified in wine. So I got my w set too. In twenty eighteen. And I'll be honest, it really was for my own selfish kind of reasons. I just wanted to be a better steward over my money and be a better steward of learning, you know, knowing more about why. And, you know, I always felt like I was always relying on, you know, a sum, a wine pro, you know, so then I could be my own wine pro, and I could be able to make my selection to take my own journey down and want, you know, through wine. But the challenging thing, and I think you know this is that there are people who love wine, and then there's people who got get bit by the bug of wine. And I got bit by the bug and started sliding down a rabbit hole constantly, you know, and I just really started to just really enjoy it, and I wanted to learn more and more and more. And because I already had Tish around town, as I was going down the rabbit hole of wine, my followers were also going down the rabbit hole of wine. So it just kinda started with my love for food, yeah, love for food, and then, you know, sprinkled in with travel, and then there was wine. It's I know that bug very well. I've been bitten badly by that bug a long time ago, and it's still it's still working for me. So I get that. Let's talk about your Tish around town because this is such a cool thing. You know, you started it in two thousand and fourteen when you were still in Atlanta before you did any WSTT stuff, and you said the goal of it, you know, it was a social media thing was to share your experiences, as you said, of food, wine, and travel. So how did it all start? And and what was the initial reaction like? You've got over five thousand followers now. So something is going really well. What gave you the idea to start to surround town? You know, interesting enough. I've always been the person that people would call, to know about the latest new restaurants, you know, where to go, what's hot in the city, because I was always hints around town. I always tell people, the tissue around town is more than just a social media handle. It's a whole lifestyle on the vibe because I live that name. I'm always around town. And so, you know, from having supper clubs with friends to always going to the, you know, newest restaurants, it just it just kind of grew from there. So I wanted to put kind of her anchor around it and said, okay. You know, I'll start to share my thoughts about what's going on around town. Starting Atlanta in twenty fourteen, always continued, you know, from twenty fourteen up until now. And then I would always just, whatever town I was at, I was around, I always just shared. So if they, you know, you could always go out there and say Tishiran, hashtag Tishiran Dallas, and you can see some things in Dallas. You can do Tishiran Napa. You can see some things in Napa. So I'm not just around one time. I'm always around town, and it just really just really birthed from me wanting to be able to share, like, the things I was doing around town. Initially was a blog. So I used to blog quite a bit. Back in this day, but then I started to leverage social media more and less from a blogging perspective. And the one thing about a social media, presence is that your followers go on the whatever journey you're on. So they started to kinda go more on a wine journey with me. So the ones that stay with me, they're still here, and now they're here and now go with me. That's amazing. It's it's it's almost like being a virtual teacher, you know, dragging everybody along with you, and you're you're so enthusiastic like, I I love the Tish around town. I did not know you could hashtag and add any town name. So that is that's a great piece of information. I'm gonna do that the next time I'm in the states. So, you know, what what made you decide to move out to Napa? You know, it's like, let's pick a difficult place to go. You know, you've said yeah. You've you've said living there allows you to learn about Viticulture and winemaking firsthand, and I really get that. But what else made you pick up stakes and commit to living in Northern California? You know, for me, I always I get this question quite a bit. And if my first response usually is I'm out here chasing my wine dreams at the end of the day. That's the simple question. I mean, that's a simple answer. To the question I'm chasing my wine dreams. When I really sat down and I thought about what I wanted to do, when I grow up, I always kept on saying, okay. I work in IT, and it's great working in IT, but I don't don't wanna do this for the rest of my life. So what do I wanna do when I grow up? Once I found wine, I was like, okay. I know I wanna do wine. So but now what in wine do I wanna do when I grow up? You know? And so it took me to quite a few years to kind of figure out exactly where in the wine world I would land. You know? So, you know, took some time, really thought about it, and just made the decision that if I will make it anywhere in wine, why not go to what I would consider to be, you know, the mothership up wine here in the United States. You know, so just I just, like, if I'm a do it, I'm a do it, and I'm a try it. You know, if I'm a jump in, I'm jumping in, you know, you know, head first and let's see what goals, you know, happens. And two years later, best decision that I made. Best decision that I made. That is fantastic. I love it when I hear somebody who really, you know, took a huge risk and it worked out well. So, I know that feeling very well. I have a few cup things coming up the road towards me that have been a long time dream, big risk. So we'll see how that goes, but I'm really happy to hear that Napa is working out for you. And, you know, in in a recent Forbes article about you, the author wrote, and I thought this was very interesting that a question hangs in the air in Napa Valley, and the question is who belongs there? And, you know, we're talking about the fact that Napa has not always been the most diverse place in the wine world, still isn't it. And when you visited Napa and then moved out there, you know, how do you think people perceived you as a black woman in the California wine scene? And things have gotten better since the last time I was there, but how was it for you? You know, if, if I go back to my very first time coming out to Napa, which would have been, like, early two thousands, it was just something about this place that was extremely magical. And it's bigger before I really, like, started to get more into wine. Right? It was just always something magical and so from them when I would come, like, I would come, kinda, like, every other year. And then in the latter years, I was coming, like, once a year. So every time I would come, I was just so amazed, and I was, like, I was, like, man, people actually like live here. You you know, it was just always just this magical place. And funny enough, this is also a funny story about me. So when I was really thinking about moving to Napa, I would say, oh, yeah. I'm I'm seriously thinking about moving to Napa. People say, you're moving to Northern California. I'm like, oh, you're moving to California. I'll say, no, I'm moving to Napa because I would, like, take it out of California. To be honest because I never would have thought that I would enjoy really living in California. That's a super good point. Napa is not really indicative of California. It's its own place. It's second day's old place. So that's kinda how I would kinda approach it, kinda, you know, I was just like, no, no, no, I'm not moving California, including moving to California. I'm actually moving to that, but, you know, just thirty mile by, you know, five to six mile radius. That's where I'm moving to, you know, not California. Never that. You know? So that was always kinda like my inner going joke. But, you know, once I got out here and I had a chance to really interact, I had a chance to really spend time in the actual community itself. What the exception is of Napa from a tourist perspective is so different from when you're you live here and you're part of the community. Is it challenging living in a space where you don't see a lot of people that look like you? Yes. Any challenges? I'll be honest. It's been more so a misconception by a tourist versus someone who's in the community, to be honest. That's so interesting. Yeah. It's, you know, I, you know, you know, have I had some challenges? Have I had someone to say a microaggression or two, you know, you know, I can give some examples. I can get someone to I can be sitting at a bar and, and someone could say, if the bartender comes up, oh, hey, Tish, you know? How are you? Pah, blah, blah, blah, I'm doing great. Does it not? And I can literally have someone ask me, excuse me. Who are you? Who are you and what are you doing here? Right. Like, you know, and it's just really weird because I'm just like, I'm I know you didn't ask anyone else this. Like, you don't ask someone who are you. You know, it's just like, I know you have to be someone for someone to treat you like this by no means could you live here. You you know what I'm saying? No no means could you be of. It's just really weird sometimes. You know? So it's just the little little things like that. You know, and and or I'll get, you know, you know, so do you stay in the area? And I see, yes. I I live in Napa. Do you actually live in Napa? It's amazing. People people can just be so So absolutely unaware of of rudeness and bias. It's incredible. Yes. So, you know, so I have to I'll just say my address is Napa. Would you like to know the ZIP code? You know, So it's just it's it's just interesting things. So I I just say I say all that to say I feel like the community itself has been absolutely amazing and so embracing. And Napa has came a long way. And I think that the majority in Napa is reading the tea leaves. People of color are not gonna stop coming out here. They're, you know, they they are still coming out here to explore. And also, there is a market for people of color that are buying wine. So so they can sit on the back burner and not try to capitalize on, you know, being able to market to that market or, you know, be left in the wind. So it's it's up to the producers if they're not there. What I can say is that all of the wineries and and and the, and the individuals I partner without here, they they they're they're they're ready for any and everything that's going on mainly in regards to making sure that people of color are come out to nap and feel comfortable. That's so good to hear. I mean, you know, statistically, we know that, you know, young women of color under the age of forty are one of the fastest growing, you know, wine buying markets in the whole world, you know, not just in the States, but it's the first time in history that, you know, young women of color under forty have their own money. They're not married. They don't have kids. They have a good job, and they wanna have fun. And they're they're curious and they're brave and they travel and they drink wine. And you're as you said, you're being foolish if you ignore that market. So I'm really glad to hear that that is the way that Napa is looking at things. Especially right now, especially in the administration that you're having to deal with over there. You know, we all know diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging, which is something that you added, and I've never seen that added to the typical DEI conversation. So thank you for that. I really enjoyed that. But these are the subjects of contention and attack in many places around the world not just in the states. So you've said you've noticed some progress, you know, and things are getting better and nap has come a long way, but Momentum around DEIB isn't as strong as it was a few years ago, which makes me quite concerned, to be perfectly honest. So I'd love to hear your take on what's happening with the wine industry regarding a genuine commitment to DEIB, you know, what do you think can be done to consolidate and elevate DEIB initiatives in wine, in California? I feel like, people just been a little bit more intentional, and understanding that You may have to take a few extra steps to make sure that you are being intentional. Like, for example, really taking a hard look at your organization and, you know, making sure that, you know, different people are, you know, are represented within your organization. If they are not, taking that extra effort to see how can they from the DEIB perspective, you know, since, you know, people don't wanna talk about DEI, and it's like, bad word. You know, I wanted to add another letter to it, you know, so it can continue to be a bad word. I really appreciate that. Yeah. I appreciate that. I've I've had backlash about deI, you know, which I'm really passionate about. I don't think of it as, you know, a a woke term or anything like that. I'm really passionate about diversity and equity and inclusion. And, it feels uncomfortable that it's become a bad word. So I like it that you added b to the end of it, and I'm gonna steal that and use it. Yes. Yes. I just think that that's just an extra little because at the end of the day, you got, you know, yes. You wanna place this diverse. You wanna place this equitable. You wanna place that's inclusive, but you also wanna make sure that people feel like they also belong in that place. You know, you know, you know, you know, absolutely. It it it does feel a little bit different that, okay, they have checked the box of d, e, and I, But do I really belong here? That's another extra step too. You know? And just making sure that people feel comfortable in all aspects of your job, all aspects of the surroundings, are aspects of the office environment or the in the vines, you know, in the cellar, in a production room. I mean, you know, just the the whole nine, just making sure that people feel comfortable. I said, I just, I definitely think that You know, after everything that happened with George Floyd, of course, everyone was off to the gates, you know, when they had, you know, deI, you know, departments. They had deI, you know, areas. Everything was so focused on deI. It was great. It felt good, but we saw as the years went on, the steam behind it just slowed and slowed. So then you start to think, okay, was that from a performative perspective? Then you had to take a step back and say, okay. Now is this performative or is this genuine? Right? Few more years go on. And now it's like, oh, you know, close down all of the departments, get rid of all of these people, you know, do not use that term. Don't say this. We can't say that. You know, it's just and and you just watched it. It's like almost just being a right You know, it's just similar to what our current administration. I mean, they're slowly but surely trying to erase certain parts of people culture and history. You know, IE, the African American history, slowly but surely, you know. So We just have to we have to just make sure that I know I'm just one person, but I just wanna still make sure that the little bit of mountaintop that I can screen from. I will make sure that I still screen, you know, d e I v and also say the words, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, you know, just making sure that that those those terms are still prevalent. I am completely with you. I'm a screamer too. So, I think Yeah. I think that that pushing back and and raising our voice and and being loud and, you know, insistent is gonna be important. So I'm I'm glad to hear that that that's something that you got on your agenda too. So I'm gonna turn us away from this sort of depressing topic, but let's talk about the celebration of women and wine in Napa Valley tour. This is a very cool idea. What gave you the idea to focus so specifically on women and wine in Napa? And how's it going? You know, who are your clients? How do you select the producers? What is one of your tours like? You know, how did this all come together? So in twenty twenty two, was my very first celebration Woman of wine, and it was as a tour. This was me basically, you know, getting together. I, you know, I built out a tour that had, you know, availability for twenty amazing wine enthusiasts from across the United States. And my main reason for wanting to do it is that as sometimes feeling like the underdog being an African American woman check, then also being a woman check, you know, underdog two times two. I I just always feel like sometimes you need a extra little leg up. You need a extra voice. In the space and place of the world of wine, it's so male dominant, but there are so many amazing women that is actually holding up this actual industry in itself. You know, so when thinking about the producers and thinking about people who will be featured on the actual tour itself, right? I look at places that are owned by women. So whether it's co owned, you know, with, you know, by females or husband and wife team, or even sometimes if the husband is the quote unquote owner, but he has an amazing wife for him to be as successful as he is. His wife is at home holding up the the pillars in the house, which allows him to be successful. So sometimes that that that producer can make the actual tour itself. I also like to make sure that I focus on female winemakers I'd love to tell the stories or share the stories of an amazing female winemaker, you know, because not only sometimes is she just, you know, she's holding up her home, she's holding up the winery. She also has kids, You know, sometimes these women are timing having their kids based on harvest. I mean, it's just so many amazing stories that are out there that I feel like more people need to be able to hear. And then the third criteria that I look for in, like, picking producers is that sometimes, there's the person that holds up the actual winery or makes that winery shine So for the third criteria, I also look for the the wine reason producers that they may not be owned by a woman, and they may not be they may not be owned by a woman. And or they may not have a female winemaker, but someone in that organization is a female that is leading the pack. So whether it is your director of hospitality, whether it's the person over National Sales, It's some female in your organization that deserves to be celebrated and that deserves to be highlighted. So that's how I kinda go about making sure that we're able to tell those stories because it it comes in different shape form or fashion. Maybe it's your viticulturist. You know, it's so many different aspects of why that makes a brand tick that sometimes we need to hear all of the different stories. So that's how I go through selecting. I had the privilege and honor of starting celebration, woman, and wine and not a tour with the help of demeanor States, which is another amazing female president that, you know, that runs that. That's Permana Bouvier. She basically sponsored the very first celebration woman and wine tour, which gave me the vision of being able to say, not only can I do this, and I would also like to take that leap of faith? And, you know, move to Napa. So I always say that part of this, you know, vision of moving to Napa was me being able to come and feel it and see it and then have a opportunity to build out something. And then could see myself in this community all within that doing that actual event itself. So I feel like, you know, that's kinda that. But that's that beauty about even like other women, supporting women. It's such a cool way to look at it. Yeah. I like the three steps of it. It it's a very studied, strategic way to change what you're doing in your life and to do it successfully. So, I love the story behind it. I think it's fantastic. And we're gonna have to get you involved with, Vinitally next year because we run a series every year. We have iconic women in wine. This year, it was six iconic women from Barolo, who all own their wineries. Yeah. We've gotta get you involved in this. Yeah. We've done six women who own sparkling wineries. We've done, six women who are just iconic for for being groundbreakers. We've done barola. So this is this is right up our alley. This is perfect, Tish. I I'm really enjoying the way that you go about planning that tour because it's thoughtful and we plan our our seminars that way too. So Let me let me just bring up the next part about this because this year in twenty twenty five, you went even further than a tour. You developed a whole full events series in March to honor the contributions of women in the wine industry. So wanna talk about this. You know, it's it's more than just a tour now. It's becoming it's taken on a life of its own from what I can see. You know, how many people joined in the event series? What was the feedback like? The feedback was awesome. And, basically, the event series was a three day event, three day event series here in Napa. I partnered with Wine Women, which is an organization based here between Napa and Sonoma, that continues to help women and wine be able to progress and have a place in space that we call safe to be able to talk in chat, to talk about, you know, the business, it, you know, breaks up into different, you know, forms and sessions and happy hours and network opportunities and scholarships and just, you know, just having, you know, having your girls club in the wine industry here in Athens Sonoma. So I partnered with them Our first event was on, the Wednesday, you know, leading up to, international women's history day. That was a happy hour hosted by Wine Woman. It was at Feds Parker. In downtown Napa. Simply amazing. We had about forty, five thirty to forty five women that came out just to help us in kicking off that actual series, and it was amazing. So then on Thursday night, which is an event that I have been, curating since last year called Venus One Vinyl, at Complplin Shop, and that's also in downtown Napa. So much fun. And so, basically, if you could imagine an evening with you know, women I always say women in the glass and women on the vinyl. So he was playing all women artists and drinking amazing wine from women winemakers, and they were their present to be able to network with everyone as a fall fund night two. And then on Saturday was a finale event, which was a grand Tasty at a CIA Copia, which is also in downtown Napa. And it was just a way to kinda, really spend international women's history day, amongst I had, I had ten producers there, you know, great food, great music, and people were able to just really just network and try the different wines from the female led, ran her own, you know, wineries. And we had a good crowd there, great feedback. And I'm already starting to planning now for, twenty twenty six. I've gotta get in on the action of that. That sounds fantastic. And and really, as I said, very thoughtful and and your word intentional, you know, bringing women to the forefront, not just in wine, including artists and stuff this is a a really it's got momentum. You can feel it. It has an energy. But you are you are such a busy person. I know you have a nine to five job for, you know, half the week, but you're also the director of apprenticeship programs for the Verison project. And you're creating opportunities there for underrepresented talent in the wine industry. So tell us about the Verazione project and your role there. What are you doing there? Yes. It's interesting. The EurasIA project is, it is something that's kinda near and dear to my heart. As a underrepresented group, have an opportunity to have organizations like the Verizon project, why UNify, the roots fund, You have an opportunity to connect with individuals, that look like you. And also at the same time, you have an opportunity to possibly get assistance, seek funding, guidance, mentorship, you know, opportunities of a lifetime, you know, hints and some of the things that, you know, the Verizon project, and wine unified, and the roots fund have been able to do for people of color that seek interest and wine. So The Reagan project, in particular, basically, and when it comes to the apprenticeship portion of it, for me, I'm I'm basically the director of apprenticeship I helped them in a building out apprenticeship programs and helping people of color continue their journey in wine, any aspects of getting some hands on experience. So the current project that, that that the Barasian project is working on is, partnered with Silver Oak out here in Napa. We just, selected our fourth cohort. So this will be the fourth rotation for the Barasian project in Silver Oak apprenticeship program. And it's so amazing to watch this program grow over the years. So, basically, it's a year rotational program. This individual will, you know, go through. They'll they'll move, they'll uproot their life, They will move across country similar to myself, but they'll uproot their life. They'll move across country. And, they will work at Silver Oak for a year, and they'll go through six rotations. So from the, you know, they'll wind up working harvest, They'll work work the, they'll work wholesale. They'll work in the marketing. They'll work from the tasting room. The lab production. They touch every aspect of wine. And after this apprenticeship, You know, sometimes they're able to stay on board with Silver Oak. Sometimes they're able to get a job within Silver Oak and one of their other properties being, you know, you know, you know, through Tumi or if, you know, they will work with Avid. And or at the same time, they wind up working for another organization that's out here in Napa. But the beauty about all of the cohorts that have been through the program They all are still here in Napa working some shape form of fashion in the wine industry. So I feel like the Verizon project has it right in the aspects of giving people an opportunity to see touch and feel and get really introduced and immersed in the world of wine, and then you can find your way and figure out exactly what you wanna do in my words when you grow up in the world of wine and get a chance to touch in different aspects of it. So it's an amazing opportunity to be a part of the Verizon project and also to be able to just be able to touch the lives of individuals who are interested in wine and be able to introduce them to wine in such an intentional way. I think this is really important. I feel like we need to be doing more things like this. There are a lot of scholarships out there for education and certification and and doing all of these sorts of things, but people need work experience. You you it's very hard to find a job even if you have fifteen certifications if you've never had any work experience. So I think this is absolutely key to keeping people in the wine industry And as you said, it's working. You've retained all of your cohorts. They all still have jobs in the wine industry in Napa, which is an incredible success rate, for, you know, the fourth the fourth time. You said you're just going now. I I love the fact that Barazón has recognized that, you know, an apprenticeship actual get your hands dirty, learn everything there is to learn about a winery. You know, people don't understand what careers there can be and why. They don't know all the different moving parts. So I think this is really, really important. And I'm I'm really grateful. I hope it grows and grows. So you've said in the past that the most rewarding aspect of your work is connecting people with wine meaningfully clearly that's what you're doing, whether through a curated experience that offers a behind the scenes look at a winery or introducing them to one of your favorite winemakers, and you create unforgettable moments and that fuels your passion for wine and hospitality I really, really relate to this. I feel very much the same. You get that aha moment on someone's face that is unforgettable. So I wanna know what you've got planned for the next couple of years. When I call you up in in twenty thirty, what are you gonna be up to by then? You know, my goal is to take the work that I'm doing here in Napa and expand it into other wine regions. I dibble and dabble in other wine regions, and the goal is to continue to expand it. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of There's a lot of amazing wine regions all across the world and mainly here in the United States and even here just in California. And one thing I'm noticing about our current wine drinkers and our next generation of wine drinkers will likely be doing the same thing is that Napa is not just the end all be all. People are really starting to explore things that are right in their backyard. So people are really getting into Michigan wines. People are really getting into Texas wines. The Virginia wine region is, you know, picking up, you know, you know, north Northern New York, you know, up in the finger lakes. And people are really starting to branch out. And I think that I wanna be able to make sure that Tish around town is not just here in Napa, but across the world. That that's basically, you know, that's basically like the the the the, the initial goal. And at the same time, you know, one of the things I always tell people is that Tishar Round Town kinda stands on, like, three pillars. And can probably have talked about two of the pillars, primarily on this conversation, but, you know, one being, you know, you know, focus on women and wine, you know, focused on, you know, bipoc, you know, people and wine. And also, I would just love to bring life, my voice to even smaller producers. You know, so all three kinda some of the things are somewhat underrepresented. You know, that producer only makes about ten thousand cases. People have to know about them too. You know, you know, not all me by all means, I know that our larger producers, you know, I love to even share their stories and they have the paycheck sometimes to pay me. But for the individuals who sometimes need the extra voice, I'd like to just be the extra voice when I can. So I just wanna be able to be that extra voice across, you know, around around the world. You know? So in twenty thirty, you know, I may still be hearing that because I love living here, but my voice will be heard around the world. I love this. This is fantastic. I'm so glad that we talked today, and I hope we can we can keep talking together because I I am one hundred percent on board with everything that you are doing now and and hoping to do in the future. And I love your attitude and your energy. It's fantastic. So I'm so grateful that we could have this talk today. Thank you so so much. Thank you so much, Cynthia, for having me, and I'm a have to get out to Italy so I can put my eyes on you, hug your neck. Because they'd have someone and have someone, and it's it's Cleveland girls can connect. So That's right. I think Cleveland girls connecting in Valpoli Chillette. That's the way to go. Oh my gosh. Well, we we need to make it a date. You're on. You're on. I will see you here soon. Alrighty. Thank you so much for having me today, Cynthia. Thank you for listening. And remember to tune in next Wednesday when I'll be chatting with another fascinating guest. Italian wine podcast is among the leading wine podcast in the world, and the only one with a daily show. Tune in every day and discover all our different shows. You can find us at italian wine podcast dot com SoundCloud, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your pods.