Ep. 561 Nadine "Wine" Brown | Voices

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Rebecca Lawrence, and this is voices. In this set of interviews, I will be focusing on issues of inclusion diversity and allyship through intimate conversations with wine industry professionals from all over the globe. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps us cover equipment, production and publication costs, and remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Welcome to the Italian Warren podcast with me Rebecca Lawrence. Today, we've got a fantastic tastic episode for you because I'm joined by Nadine Brown, Sommelier and Wyne Beyer from Charlie Palmer stake in DC. Welcome to the podcast Nadine. Thank you so much. Before we get started, for those listeners who might not be aware of you, could you introduce yourself to them and maybe tell them a little bit about who you are and what you do? Awesome. My name's Nate Dean, and I'm a longtime hospitality wine professional in the DC area. I'm rich from Jamaica. I'm originally from Falmouth Jamaica, pretty rural town in northeastern Jamaica. I went to high school in Puerto Rico, and then went off to college in Boston for social work. I'm a mom of two, established four in Emerson is ten, and we've been in this house together for about a year now. Yeah. That's that's me in a in a in a nutshell. So I love that you came to wine after having started in another career, it's something that I did myself. I didn't start in wine, and I often like to ask people how that previous work has influenced what they've experienced in how brutality. So I was really fascinated to discover that you trained in social work and worked in the field before you switched to wine. So I wondered, you know, how the move to wine came about, and also if perhaps your training in social work is is one of the reasons why people often comment that you're very convivial on the floor able to talk to anyone about anything. That's a great question. I think a lot of people come into wine that way. Probably not so much anymore. I feel there are a lot of, you know, eighteen year olds who know exactly what they wanna do and and and go into wine right away. But, yeah, you know, I didn't I didn't do Sultra work for a very long time, you know, honestly, but it feels longer because there's so much field study while you're going through through through school and and education. My mom was definitely instrumental. I think just she could also talk to anyone, you know, from, you know, people on the street to board meetings, you know, and I think there's there's, you know, just that convivial, I think there's something just about the Jamaican culture too, of of welcoming people from all over the world and, you know, that, that part of it. I think the soft skills. You know, we we've been talking a lot. I think last couple of years, you know, in all different fields, the importance of soft skills, you know, whether it's even just business CEO saying, you know, I need people graduating who can talk to people and and and write. And and, you know, social work is a lot about listening, and I think to be a a good, smaller, or just hospitality professional in general, it helps to be a good listener. You know, I always thought of myself as the translator. Like, I'd listened to a guest telling me what, you know, they wanted to drink, you know, and then matching it up with, you know, with a wine from my program. I think you're right that that's that's a really important skill is is that kind of active listening, but I love how you talk about it as being a translator because you've gotta take whatever someone on the that you're serving tells you and yeah, translate that into the perfect bottle of wine for someone, and that's that truly is a skill. Yeah. And, you know, and a lot of times they're giving you, you know, stuff in kind of garbled language. I'm doing quotes you can't see. You know, like, I wanna sweet dry wine that's, you know, floor. I'm like, well, that's not what you mean. But over time, you know, you're like, okay, I know I know what you mean because, you know, I've been doing this for a while and enough people have asked me for a sweet, a sweet red wine to know you know, what what style you're talking about. So, absolutely. Yeah. Thinking about the the language of wine. I read in one of the interviews that you've done that you'd much rather tell the story of a wine than give it a tasting note. And part of this coming back to your your kind of growing up in Jamaica, Puerto Rico, that some of the the tasting notes that you experience, and given by Semelios, don't really resonate with what you experience growing up. I wondered if you thought this is something that more sommeliers need to tackle and also perhaps other parts of the field like education. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's it's happening, you know, definitely with with smalliers first. I think there needs, you know, there needs to be a balance you know, the language of wine is there for a lot of different reasons. I mean, even at the restaurant, I could meet someone from Germany or, you know, somewhere where the language wasn't always there, but you know, pretty much everyone, knows what a raspberry is, and I always thought that and I always assumed that. But if you, you kinda draw back more, there's there's a lot of the world that's never had a raspberry. Right? And it's almost easier for us in the Western world to get access to things, you know, from other parts from the world than vice versa. You know, if that does that make sense, you know, like, I can go to my, the Korean grocery store here and find things, you know, from Thailand, from, you know, all from India, you know, as as opposed to them, you know, finding a gooseberry in Mumbai. Yes. You know, I've still haven't had a gooseberry, but but I still think you you should if you're a wide professional, you should still, you know, seek out, you know, as someone from Jamaica, I made a point to, you know, find figs and quince and and boost berries, which I still haven't found. You know, be because it's it's it's it's a it's a it's a joint language, you know, so it's it's both people meet meeting each other, you know, where where they can. But I do think that's changing. You know, in terms of testing, they're I do understand the need for some uniformity, right, because we can't have everyone, you know, it was, I think, was, like, Rioja, where Italian, American Oak, I would say, oh, this smells like when they're burning the sugar canes in Jamaica when they're cutting the sugar cane down to make rum, and that's not an experience that everybody has. Right? You know, and it's it's interesting. And people are like, oh, wow. I can get that. But, you know, when you're doing WSTT, like, it it doesn't really work in that in that sense. Yeah. I think we're at a really interesting point in in wine and wine education in terms of the language you use we're using for many reasons, but also, yeah, this takes a lot because the gooseberry thing is something that kind of drives me a little bit mad because it's used so often as this classic tasting note for sauvignon blanc and as someone who's from the UK, Guisbury's were just something I grew up with, but you slowly realize that a whole lot of the world just has no frame of reference for what this is except for sovignon blanc. So I think it's really interesting to start exploring, and, yes, we've got issues with standardized testing, but, yeah, exploring different ways of talking about wine. And when I heard about you talking about it's telling the story of wines, to give them the context rather than necessarily just going, oh, it tastes like this. Yeah. I think that's what people remember. You know, as a small a walking around the floor, I didn't, you know, when I was talking to someone about wine, you know, those those the things on the back of the label was not really what grabbed people's attention, you know, hints of raspberries and cedar and, you know, all of the those kind of tasting notes but the stories, you know, there is a wine here called a Groff from Napa that was started by one of the founders of Atari, which is an old, an old gaming system. You know, Frank Family is an a Cab, again, from Napa, and he was a disney executive for a long time and started the Golden Girls. And, you know, absolutely, act actually, the Golden Girls is probably more universal than Gooseberry's. Right? And and people really, you know, remember. They remember those stories. You know, that that's that's what I mean. Yeah. And I also think that that helps resonate with people because many people want their wine to be an experience and a memory and a story that they take on. So suddenly their experience of the wine becomes intertwined with the story you've told them maybe an experience you've had with the wine or maybe a particular experience about the wine maker And that can all build in to create this great narrative of a wine. And you might not remember the tasting note, but you're going to remember the experience you had when you tasted it. Absolutely. So, obviously, you have been involved, in this world of service and hospitality. And you've spoken about the fact that it does present challenges, you know, for in particular mothers, or work and working parents, you know, it doesn't have to just be mothers. And it must be incredibly hard to have balanced a job in the service industry in hospitality with children. I wondered, you know, how would you like to see the industry adapt to make these positions something that's sustainable for parents in the long term because those of us who work in hospitality love what we do and want to keep doing it. Yeah. Absolutely. And it was, you know, it was, I've I feel like I was fairly lucky. You know, I was at Charlie Palmer for, like, fourteen years, and that was part of the reason. Not part of the reason why I stayed so long, but I had both my kids there. And, you know, just they were just very supportive in terms of, you know, time that I needed off, you know, but I also you know, placed wine orders while getting sonograms. Like, these are these are true things that, you know, that that I happen. And I used to really talk about what restaurants in the industry need to do, and that that stays the same just in terms of being supportive and having, you know, conversations. I think it's really important to have conversations with your employer, you know, early on, you know, both of you setting them with a plan and know, even in the interview process, you know, like, hey, this is this is something that's important to me, just in terms of, you know, your values, but pulling back, you know, a little bit, you know, COVID has laid bare a lot of issues that we knew were there. You know, so I don't think it's just a hospitality issue. I think it's especially in the States, you know, just something that we need to to to deal with on a on a more macro level, you know, in terms of funding, early childhood education, you know, I I don't think that just industry, and I don't wanna get too political on it. But, it's it's changed a little bit than when, you know, before I'd say, like, restaurants need to do this and and and and that. But I I I think it also has to be, you know, on a broader level. I don't remember the statistic right now, but, you know, in terms of people that are not back to work right now, you know, more than it was, like, eighty percent of them are women, you know, and it's because of childcare and because schools out, you know, and that absolutely, you know, helps hurts the economy and then just hurts women as well. Yeah. I think there needs to be this, like you say, this broader discussion about how we make this kind of work life balance more sustainable, for the choices that people might want to make. And I completely agree that that's not just hospitality and that hopefully one of one of the things that the current situation will do is make that conversation more prevalent and make us realize that perhaps changes need to be made in in this very broad way, not just in particular circumstances. Right. And the value, you know, with the value that we place on on on on on parents and and just how important on how important that is. Yeah. Being able to make a parent present if they if if they want to be in as much as they want to be whilst also balancing a career that they love. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I I thought, you know, I I definitely thought about, you know, leaving the industry all together at the beginning of, you know, but there's just been so much time blood tears, money. The investment has already been made. So one of the things you have been doing is you've talked passionately about education and making wine approachable for people. So I wondered if you could talk to our listeners a little bit about some of the education initiatives that you've been involved in and and maybe the future of them. Absolutely. I start, well, not started. I'm a a on the board of a a pretty new nonprofit called the Verizon project where we're working to get more people of color into the wine industry and just helping to, you know, lower some of the barriers, whether it's funding for certifications, because certifications are expensive and continue to get more expensive exposure. We partnered with distributors where where they give us wines to give to to candidates for blind tasting, you know, mentor, a pretty, intensive mentor mentorship program. Because there's, you know, there's also a lot of a lot of people think of the becoming a small end. That's great, but there's a whole industry, right, there's marketing and sales. And, you know, I was, worked for a distributor. I went from the floor to sales for a short period before COVID, and it was difficult. You know, I in retrospect, I wish I had master classes. I think that's super exciting because that's definitely something that I have found missing as as someone who came into wine a little bit later without necessarily some of the skills that were expected of me as someone working in retail I just never come across it, and it was never touched on in my wine education. And having those master classes is gonna be so useful for people. And like you say, the the barriers to entry are are also cost based. That idea of being able to support people with things like wine samples for tasting, because a lot of these certifications require you to have blind tasting skills, but wines are expensive, particularly the further you get through the certification. So I'm super excited by what you're managing to do. And we just started a an internship program too with Virginia wines, you know, getting getting people of color hired for intern jobs. So, yeah, mean, there and there are some great other some other great organizations, one unified, the roots fund that have done some amazing, you know, amazing work in, you know, less than a year in a in a short short period in a short period of time. You know, you know, a a lot of this was growing and happening, you know, but to be real, you know, the the joy George Floyd and Black Lives Matter Movement here in the States and then globally last year was definitely a huge catalysts of just kind of enoughs enough and and and people just wanting to do something and and us kind of looking around and, hey, we, you know, we have all of this, you know, these resources and people that have been in the industry. And, it's long past time. So Yeah. It definitely is. And I really hope that out of such kind of tragic circumstances, the the wine industry, but also, you know, industries in general can use that as a catalyst for positive change. We kind of have to. So speaking of education and what's next? What's next for you? Is it MSMW or are you just trying to trying to work on your own work life wine balance? Yeah. You know, I I kind of fell out of love with the wine, you know, in terms of that intense wine study a couple years ago. It just kind of a mismatch between what I was studying, I think, and the four, and then having kids and a mortgage and a dog and a fish, but definitely, you know, getting interested in again and and and and MW. Let me start with the diploma because I mean, you know, finish the diploma. You know, is something that's interesting to me. And then the the special, you know, the the French just specializing, you know, in in in particular regions, like this French wine scholar, but but I'm not sure. You know, I'm I'm also helping my ten year old, you know, with with decimal placings. So yeah. But just even if I don't do that, there's just always learning and I'm doing some, you know, starting to do some writing and and definitely reading more and and studying. I'm doing studying again in quotations, you know, because of the writing and and enjoying it again, you know, if if that if that makes sense. And really, you know, helping helping other people kind of find find their find their way, giving back in any way that I can. I think it's it's important that people see people that look like them, you know, doing what doing what they might not even think was possible. You know, it's something like I kind of organically knew was important, but maybe two years ago now I was out of tasting and someone tapped me in the shoulder, like, hi, Nateen. You don't know me, but I've been following your career and, you know, you made you were kind of the first black woman I saw and made me, you know, even think of this profession as a possibility, which is when it really clicked home that, you know, all these terms we throw around, like, representation matters, but it does. And, you know, I I this is a whole we could have a whole other podcast about this, but, you know, the fact that I wasn't born here, that I was from, you know, I was twenty when I came to the States and everybody, you know, in Jamaica, the prime minister looks like me, the, you know, my teachers, the lawyers. So I never really I didn't think there wasn't anything that I couldn't do. So, yeah, so so that's it's important. And it it doesn't have to be, you know, my own my my early mentors were not people of color. They were really supportive, but I I I I think that that it does make a difference. Yeah. I think it really does. And I definitely started in in the industry where there weren't a lot of young women with colored hair and tattoos. And, you know, that's a a different whole different thing to race, which oh my god. But like you say, one of the reasons I started working in education was because I wanted to demonstrate that it wasn't just for one type of person. And I think that's even more important now is to get as diverse a group of people on show to say, you know what? Anyone who wants to do this can do this, and we will find mentors for you. Yeah. You can be a professional with blue hair. I think I I saw a TikTok about that. It was it was excellent. And, social media, I think more than anything. Social media is what I've really been getting into the last year. We before we started, we were talking a little bit about Clubhouse and have definitely been more involved in Instagram and just trying to reach people that way. Your Instagram is amazing. It's so great. Thank you. I will get you to to give your social tags before we end, but given this is the Italian wine podcast, I will be, you know, told off by my producers if I don't ask a question about Italian wine. So You have traditionally been known as someone who is an American wine lover. I see you have managed a list that was only American wines, but I was wondering if you could sneak an Italian into your collection, what would you choose? Oh, boy. There's so many, you know, and Italy was always hard to study. I think for a lot of people, because language, because it's not really one country because I don't call the same great, the same thing. Like, I'm having I'm having flashbacks right now. But You know, I I did a tasting recently. Was there's a Chinese Korean restaurant here, and it was for the year of the ox. It was for Chinese New Year's, and I did a Scarpetto, Barbara with it, and it was beautiful. And, you know, and then as as this past summer, I really started having a lot of great grillo's from Sicily, you know, so both of those, and those are just profiles, especially the grillo that just can't you can't There's nothing like it. You can't I don't even know what to compare it to, that salinity. I love wine history, and there's just so much history in Italy. So I would say, you know, a a barbera or, you know, something from sis Sicily, like, an indigenous grape from from Sicily. At Barbara, Barbara, Barbara is a is a weird, you're a weird choice, but I think, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't start someone on Barolo, you know. Just in terms of, you know, kinda depending where are where they are in their wine journey. I think that's a great choice. I was actually talking to a guest earlier this week, and they also chose Barbara because it's a great variety that has so many different ways of expressing itself because, you know, they can be super easy drinking or they can be super complex and able to age. And I think it's an a great grape to get people into Italian wine because it's easy to say and it's it can be an approachable wine, but it can move through these layers of complexity. So and it's the same and actually the same with Grillo as well. Like, you have super fresh, easy to drink, but then you have maybe some more interesting oxidized. I want a glass of wine now. Awesome. And Moscado Moscado de Esti, I think Moscado gets a bad rap. You know, there's some horrible ones, and there's horrible, just bath tubs. I think they're just making and bottling it in bathtubs, but, you know, especially we were talking about, you know, expanding the lexicon and and pairing wines with food people actually eat. Yes. You know, whether it's, I think, you know, muscato goes well with jamaican food and, you know, perique and pork and, you know, it's just it's really versatile. Yeah. Definitely muskata with pork belly dishes. Amazing. Now now I'm hungry and thirsty. Me too. So I think that's the perfect place to wrap it up because our listeners are gonna be desperate to get in the kitchen. Nadine Brown, thank you so much for joining me on the Italian Warren podcast. Where can our listeners find you online on social media, club house? I'm still working on getting my my website up for this new project. I called at your service, but on Instagram at naveenwein Brown is the easiest way It's Nadine Wind Brown and Clubhouse, but Nadine Wind Brown on Instagram, and my my DMs are always open. I encourage all of our listeners to go and look at Nadine's Instagram. It's fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone for listening. Don't forget to follow us on social media, subscribe, and of course donate on the website to make sure we can keep having these amazing conversations. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time. Chinching.