Ep. 576 Tahiirah Habibi | Voices

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Rebecca Lawrence, and this is voices. In this set of interviews, I will be focusing on issues of occlusion, diversity, and allyship through intimate conversations with wine industry professionals from all over the globe. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps us cover equipment, production and publication costs, and remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast with me Rebecca Lawrence. Today on voices, I am so stoked to introduce our listeners to someone who I have long admired, Tahira Habebe of Hugh Society roots Fund, and so much more. Welcome to the podcast Hira. Hi. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. So I don't really know where to start because you've been really instrumental in the growth and change of the industry, not just for the past couple of years, obviously, whilst you've been in the spotlight, but kind of behind the scenes as well for a long time. So maybe the best place to start is to ask you maybe to introduce yourself to the listeners. Sure. As you said, my name is Tahira Habibi. I am a Psalm and the founder of Houston Society. I'm also one of the co founders of the roots fund, nonprofit I've been working in the industry for over ten years. I started my career at the St. Regis, and I worked at a couple different places in Miami, down there, lot of leadership roles. And then I just got tired of seeing no one who looked like me, and it was very lonely. So, I left the floor, and I left, like, the industry, and I really started doing, community work, community centered work you know, focusing on advocacy and creating access and resources for, communities of color really, you know, it started with the black community. And I was very focused on that. And then as q society grew, the need grew for other people who were also being marginalized, and I'm never gonna turn someone away from community. So, you know, the reason why I called it Hugh is because we're all different colors. And so, you know, that includes all people of color. It's just, you know, I had to I had to take care of home first. And now we're kinda, like, branching out into the full full range. Wow. So, yeah, you you talked about your formative years in Miami. What Can you dive a little deeper into what your experience was there? Like you say, you said, it eventually wasn't quite the right fit for you. Is that what pushed you to to do something like you? Yes. And no, I think on some level, I've always been an activist. I've I've always been an advocate for sure. I I have a a minor in African American studies, from Penn State. So it's it's not like it was just like, oh, you know, let's let's start promoting this. But Miami so Miami is like its own planet. I don't know if you've ever been or worked there, but Miami is definitely its own planet. And that is where I spent the majority of my career as a soft like working as a Sam, that's where I spent my working career. That is where my development happened. And I had I had incredible experience. It it was, a lot of people don't start their career as as their first job at such a high level. So there was a lot of pressure there and then the pressure of being black and the pressure of being a woman in this space was intense, but I learned a lot. Like, you know, me and and my friend of mine, Julia, have this joke, like, you know, I used to drink Opus One and and, Patrice on Tuesdays for lunch because that was that was my life. Like, you know, I was around rich wealthy people who money didn't mean anything to, and I was serving them these super high end wines, and I learned so much about, like, that's where I learned, like, fine wine, like, vintages, like, all the best stuff. And I come from I don't come from money. I come from love. That's it. That money. So, you know, I grew up poor. So so this was, like, the contrast was just astounding to me just, like, watching people just spend money on wine like that. And then the other thing was people were not used to seeing a black woman as a sum. And so I would get that all the time. And we had a lot of Europeans who would come into the restaurant because I worked at my I ended my career at the Saint Regis at Jean George. And, you know, they I've been sent away from tables. People were like, we don't want you at the table or, what do you know about wine? Or, you know, we want we want the white guy or because my my counterpart was, he's actually cute. No. He's Colombian, but he presents as white. And, you know, they want him. And, you know, it's just all kinds of, like, atrocious things. So it was, like, you're having this experience of your life. Like, you have the job of your life. Like, what else? How else do you enter your career then then at that level? But there was a lot of pressure and there was a lot of racism that I had to deal with overt and, you know, introvert. Like, it was just a lot of biases, a lot of and at the time, like I said, people weren't used to not only not seeing a black song, but they weren't used to seeing a black woman. And it was just like, what? Like, today, it's a lot different. Right? Like, and I feel like the few of us who were working on the floor at that time, like, we normalized having people see that. Like, we had to go through the that grunt work, really, in order for people to get used to that, So, you know, the so that's armed today can, you know, still experience some form of racism just not as as much, I guess, you know. And the other thing was, I I got tired of the question. Like, Are there so it was kinda, like, the onus was on me, like, oh, since you're a black Psalm or are there any black winemakers or, you know, and it would always be kinda, like, like, and when I got the question from black people, it was sincere. It was, like, no, seriously, like, Do you know any black winemakers? But when I got it from other people, it was, like, passive aggressive, like, are there any black winemakers? Like, tell tell me everything. Did, like, quizzing me at tables? And so, like, you know, what are what are all the groups that you have to pop? Like, But, like, do you want this wine or not? Because I, you know, it just got to a point where I and I was never able to be myself. So there was a lot of trauma wrapped in in this thing, like, you know, dealing with the racism, dealing with the idea that I couldn't be myself at all. I wasn't allowed to wear my hair in certain ways. I had to dress a certain way. I wasn't allowed to wear my big earrings. Like, my heart was broken, mostly about the earrings. No. I'm kidding. But still, you know, I I think that this that's violence. I think that code switching and this idea of the, you know, is violence. It is very violent. Like, you write these things into policy, and it's it's very anti black. A lot of policies that HR representatives corporations and organizations write into policy are are anti black. They don't want you to present as yourself. They want you to come and be a robot for them. They want your talents, they want your skills, they do not want you. And I was just sick of it, and I was done. And then I, you know, I I've left the Saint Regis. Like, my last straw at the Saint Regis was, you know, one of the managers that would, like, hire up in the Hotel calling my braids things and telling me that I couldn't come back to work. And I'm not supposed to have those things in my hair. And I was just like, I I'm I'm, like, done with this. Like, I I literally can't. And luckily, one day, the owner of Michael genuine, which is another, like, exceptionally historic restaurant in Miami happened to come in, and he was really impressed with me. And so they reached out and I ended up working there. And that was pivotal because was super geeky. And so I had got this, like, amazing fine dining, fine wine experience. And now I'm getting, like, this super geeky, you know, down to, like, like, soil types and like, really digging into producers and, like, all of that stuff that I hadn't had before. Like, it was cool. But, you know, those people were interacting. Like, this was, like, and so I got a really well rounded why experience in in education and and I had a really great career, not for nothing. I can't say that I had I, like, I had a great career. I was very privileged, but that privilege did come with the price. Does it wasn't like wasn't like most people privileged. You know, it's not like white privilege where you're just like, here you here you go. And, you know, you know, there's no trauma that's coming with that. Like, a lot of most of the privilege that we get comes with some trauma But for me, I just found it really important to I I understood that I had privilege, and I understood that I had power. And I just felt like it was time to redistribute that power. And so I went on to be a wine director, and I opened up a couple places and and all of this stuff, and but, you know, my heart was still in community. And so I ended up quitting. I was just, like, I'm not I think I might have got fired from my last job because I think I was just, like, so fed up at this point with people. I might have got fired because I definitely was just, like, talking back, like, I was just talking back. Done with this. I was done. And I was just being myself, and I was just tired of people telling me that I couldn't be myself, but you wanted my skill set. And I was good at my job. So it was like, you're gonna hire me because I'm good at my job, but you're not gonna leave these parts of me out. Like, you're not gonna, you know, just dismantle my being and my humanity for your benefit. And so I was like, well, you know, I'm actually pretty good at my job. I don't take these skills back to my community, so I quit. And I started doing community events, and I was just very focused on black winemakers. I was focused on black wine consumers It was really important for me for us to be able to learn and experience wine through our own experience experiences and things that we like culturally, you know, through music, through art, through cuisine, which in the wine world doesn't exist. Like, You don't pair wine with soul food. You don't, you know, there's no mac and cheese that you're you're putting with the wine. Like, there no. You don't try to no one's trying to hear all of that stuff. So I was just I was like, well, I'm gonna normalize it. I'm gonna make you here. I'm gonna make you see it. Like, you're going to pay attention to this. So I started doing events. I did a wine and reggae festival. It was huge. Like, three thousand people showed up. And then, you know, I started doing smaller events But I always did events through the lens of just blackness. It was like the as black as I can make it, that's that's exactly what I was gonna do. And you either to like it or you work or to like it, but I knew who was gonna like it. And that was the only people I was focused on. And, then I got pregnant. And I was like, definitely not raising my child in crazy ass, Miami. So I moved to Atlanta, and I really wanted to expand upon my first company was called Sipping socials. And so I really wanted to expand upon because at this time, like, we started seeing other black wine professionals, like, come out, like, you know, on social media and stuff like that. So I'm like, okay, we need a place where we can all where we all know where we are. Like, we can gather. We can see each other. We can, you know, build in, you know, just like an umbrella. And so I knew what I wanted. I knew what the concept was. I knew I wanted to open chapters. I knew I wanted to build communities. I just I just didn't know, like, what I wanted to call it. And so, you know, when I started thinking about Hugh, you know, it was my JZ lyric. Yeah. I wanted to reference that because I just think that's brilliant. He's like, you know, it was was better than one billionaire. He because that's for me, that's what it was. It's about building wealth. So I was, like, he's, like, was better than one billionaire too, especially if they did the same hue as you. And I was, like, that that is exactly right. That's, like, a hundred percent correct. And so, you know, he was society. And I wanted it to be a society because like I said, it's meant to be chapters. It's meant to be, like, this big thing. And so, and plus, you know, it's a double entendre, like, there are different queues of wine. So, you know, it was just perfect and that I when I got to Atlanta, I, you know, I tried to move to the blackest city I could find. So I was like, alright? You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna build this organization. I gotta move here. And, you know, I did. I moved to Atlanta. I think I think it's three years now. It was two thousand seventeen. That's the same year that hue society was born. But everybody thinks, like, hue society is, like, this new thing. It's like, no. I was doing this before hue society, I just rebranded and expanded what the work that I was already doing for a few years. So it's not I mean, technically, yes, is it from a business license perspective and it's new, but it's not really, like, new. I wanted to ask about the decision to have, like, you say, the chapters, and the local teams with mentors, why particularly did you wanna go for that kind of model? Because we I know that we needed to be in community with each other. And I I'm very particular about what that community looks like and who has access to it. We don't have anything like that. We never had anything like that where we could just come and be ourselves one hundred percent. And I also knew that every city is different. Like, and and black people take a lot of pride in their cities, like, very seriously. And I knew every city was different. I knew that every city needed something different. And with the way the wine laws work here, every state is different. So I knew I needed to have people in the states that could provide resources and create access for inner city. Like, it's it's not just the people who work in wine. It's just about, like, people from the community. So in the chapters, we have doctors and lawyers who love wine and they want a working knowledge and and stuff like that. But I needed to make sure that it was accessible and access looks different to everybody depending on which community you're you're in or which state or which city. So it was never a about me, I wanted them to have the autonomy to build their own thing. Like, I had built up this this organization. And I was like, okay. Well, it's time to kinda start re redistributing that power and that and those those resources. So But I don't I don't have to do it. They can do it themselves. Like, you decide what works for you, what looks good to you, what feels good to you in that particular segment of the community. And so at New York is very different from Atlanta. Which is very different from California. Like, those communities all need different things. And so I thought that it was really important to make sure, like, that I was speaking to the people and giving the power to the people, which is the issue with the wine industry. Like, no one wants to give the power to the people. Everybody wants to, like, hoard power and resources because they everybody wants to be the only one in the room. Everybody wants to be the top dog. Everybody wants in. It's just like, I don't need to be any of those things. I I already am those things. I'm fine. I don't need to. And no one can no one can take that away from me. Right? Like, I I built that up on my own. So I'm I'm I know, like, the risks that I take when I do stuff, but no one can do anything to me. So I don't work for anybody else. Like, I didn't I don't no one I don't have ties to, like, people in organizations where, like, you can't say that or you can't do this, like, none of that. And I want and that's the sense of freedom that I want everybody to feel. At least when you come to this space, you should be able to feel like that. You should be able to say and dress and and be yourself a hundred percent what it whatever that means to you. So it was just really important to me that autonomy was there for for the people who were joining in this journey with me. I think that's, like, it's one of the things that has really impressed me about huge society because you basically took all of the stuff that you had had to deal with in your career, this idea of, like, not being able to have your identity and put that into action right down to, like you say, the recognition of the fact that what the needs of New York are are not gonna be the needs of Atlanta. Like, and, like, the needs of an inner city community are gonna be different to the needs of a suburban community. And, like, to see that demonstrated in the wine industry through, you know, through a society, it's just not something anyone else has done. It's not something anyone else has recognized. Like, you look at wine education, or or wine groups, wine clubs, and it's all done in the same way wherever it's franchised. And I really love that you've just gone, why why? We don't have to do that. Like, that's not how the world works. Why is it how stuff in mind should work. So it's been super, super inspiring. So obviously, talking about, like, being a community and a lot of that is being in person and in person interactions, How have you adapted in the because the last year and a half must have been pretty tough for for that side of things, particularly as, you know, having built a lot of this based on the events very much in person with, you know, community focus. So How how have you yeah. Well, I tabled the events, last year. I didn't do any events. I had I had a ton of events planned. Let me tell you. Like, I literally my schedule was packed from March through, I think, like, the end of September, like, every week, like, past. And then boom, was it? It wasn't. And I was like, okay. Well, here we are. So I actually launched the chapters during that time. Like, I took time to launch the chapters and I did it virtually. And I thought that that was important because we needed we definitely needed to be together. And, also, I knew that we would be able to do this virtually with within little segments of each other. Right? So I took my time and launched the different chapters, and they do virtual tasting. So, you know, they create kits and and, you know, you go pick up your kit, you get on the the screen, and whatever. We also do national tastings. So, you know, we we do national programming. So some things, all the chapters come together for, you know, we we do seminars. We do national tastings. We do speaking engagements, like, that kind of stuff as well. So we we are still programming virtually. It's just not, altogether, but in August, all of that changes because big queue society weekends coming up And, you know, we're I'm bringing back the roses and Rose awards brunch, which is the only awards brunch that focuses on people of color. Right? We're doing the black wine experience where, you know, it's all black wine tastings, importers and distributors. Redoing any an event called rice from and and it's about pairing food from a cultural perspective because rice is the one is is one of the foods that almost every culture cooks, but they all cook it differently. And so we're doing, yeah, we're doing an event of that and then pairing different wines with rice, from different cultures and, you know, having a discussion on them. We're doing fun stuff. We're doing savoring competitions and peron challenges. And blind tasting. So it's only gonna be weekend in Atlanta and, you know, super excited about that. Like, we're back. It's it's time. Like, I'm doing a a cookout, like, a midnight cookout, like, it's time. It's go time for sure. And the other thing is the chapters while they are black centered, they're humane society was never about excluding anybody. It was about creating an inclusive space for ourselves to see ourselves as ourselves. So, you know, New York is opening back up. They just opened up their chapter application. They got a ton of applications and, yeah, there will be non black people, non, people of color. There'll be white people in the chapters. But the thing is what would you do is you invert the the power structure and you put it on his head and you guys had the chance to do this and you saw what you did with it. So, you know, you know that you're coming into our space and what that looks like and what that feels like and it's always welcoming. We don't we don't, you know, it's it's never like these these barriers. We don't create barriers for other people. And so I think that that's really pivotal because if you know that you're coming into a black center space and they feel and we feel comfortable. Right? Like, we don't have to change ourselves. If you wanna change because you come into space, we don't recommend it. But, you know, that's no one's pushing you to do that. So it's different, you know, and and and, yeah, there there there will be that it's gonna be what the wine industry should look like. Like, everybody, but unabusive and undromatizing and, you know, violence. Yeah. Just, yeah, open and supportive and loving and creative is is what we need the industry to be. And that's how I think we're gonna reenergize the industry as well because I feel like there's been historically, like, there's a huge swath of people that have just been excluded from the industry who could be welcomed into it and enjoy the wines and enjoy the culture. It's like just, I mean, from a business perspective, like, there's this whole group of people that no one's been marketing to and talking to, like, and that's that's just so wrong. It should be this open space. Yeah. That's crazy. And it's stupid. It doesn't it it doesn't make financial sense either. Yeah. So I wanna touch a little bit also on the roots fund, because obviously you're involved in that as well. And you have been partnering q society with roots fund recently. I understand. So dive into a roots fund a little bit and and the work you've been doing with them. So roots fund was born out of the need. So huge society is the community. Roots fund is taking a community to the next level. So you know, of your party community, you you have interest in wine water blah blah, but a lot of times the barriers are that you don't have the money to pay for these tests. You don't have the money to travel to these tests, like, or study or buy wine that is going to help develop your pallet and all of that stuff. So roots is creating pathways. It's all about creating pathways and financing pathways for for communities of color to get into the wine space. And whatever that means to you, And I think that we're different because we don't specify what that looks like. Like, we're not like, oh, you can only do this test or we're giving you scholarships to this program or whatever, whatever. Whatever. If you're going to community college, we will pay for, you know, if you wanna take a business course and why we will pay for that. If you need money to travel to your test, we'll pay for that. If you need help of relocation, we will pay for that. Like, we give scholarships for everything as long as it's wine related and, you know, you need the money to help facilitate your career. We're going to help you because that is how you create diversity. That is real diversity. It's not this, oh, you know, I'm checking the box. Like, at this mini black and brown people, I'm gonna bring them into this broken ass system. And, you know, that's diverse that's not diversity. Like, we're a we're creating, and eliminating barriers for people So that's the main work. And we're doing the work. We're sending people to France. Like, we will have so many enrichment trips for people who never even thought about leaving their neighborhoods. You know, we've moved people across the country to be able to work wine jobs only would have never been able to. We've got we do job placements and internship placements. Everything. I mean, what you need, we do it. And that's why roots fund is so important. And funding stuff like that is so important because how else do you get people to where they need to go? Like, people need a jump start or, you know, people need experience. People need to be able to, and and you complain about, like, oh, you know, you have to have this much experience you're not giving somebody the opportunity to get the experience. So we we we did all of that. We make sure, like, that you're good, like, from beginning to end, whatever that means, whatever you need, we we definitely will provide that. I really love that Ruth funded doing it. Like you say, there's no specification of, like, okay. Well, we'll only give you the money to do your WSTT level three because people forget, I think, particularly if you are at a certain level involved in the industry, which can be very insular, that, like, it's not just the course that costs the money. It's traveling to the course. It's buying the wine for the course. It's maybe getting the textbook. It's all of that stuff. And then maybe that's not your path. Maybe like you said, you actually wanna go into business, but you're really into wine, or you wanna go into marketing, or you wanna work in a winery, but no one talks about how difficult access is for all of that. It's not just access to, quote, unquote, education. It's at every single level. Like, maybe you just need help buying the suit that's gonna get you the job interview. All of that stuff is privilege and access at every, you know, there's every single door is shut in people's faces. I just drives me nuts. Let's see. I could rant. I I have been ranting about this with a lot of people. Like, I'm like, I'm talking about access to, thinking about food and the way the kind of the way that wine has been very, like, exclusive in food. I was talking to Jarde Malay recently, here is, another woman I love, about, you know, and we were having this great conversation about the fact that, you know, Italian wine pairs so well with lots of different types of food, and we just need to expand you know, the classic views about what food and wine pairing is because food and wine pairing is literally just taking a bottle of wine and drinking it with food. Like, that's that's it. Like Right. And people ask me that, like, what's what's a good wine pairing? What do you like to drink? Like, the first rule is does it taste good to you? And it tastes good to drink it? Like Just just open it. Like, no judgment. Like, if you like it, the pairing's done. So I wanna talk before we talk about your amazing cover on wine enthusiasts, because I do wanna dive into that. But, I wanna continue with some, some talk about how you've made changes in the industry because obviously you did have a slightly infamous and viral posting about The code of sommelier is, and while I don't wanna dive, like, specifically into that, because I know you've talked a lot about it on a on a lot of places. What I did want to talk about is language. In the wine industry because you brought up this really amazing point about the importance of language and inclusive language and maybe people recognizing that they have these biases that they don't realize exist, and that expresses itself in language and how damaging and how violent this can be. And I'm kind of hyper aware of this. I'm an educator and a communicator And I'm really aware that maybe I have biases as well that that I am expressing and don't even realize it because maybe I don't have someone in the room who's brave enough to get, say, call me out on it. So I wanted to ask of how you think the industry should be reapproaching language? I think language is a barrier on on multiple levels because, you know, we talk about professionalism, which is really just which is really just an another form of, privilege and supremacy masking itself because, you know, take African American, vernacular, you know, for example, it's enjoyable when you feel like it, but we have to change it when you feel like it. Right? And but a lot of these terms, a lot of these words they, you know, we we shape that kind of culture. And but until it becomes acceptable to white people, it's it's unacceptable. It's it's ghetto. It's, you know, and I say this all the time, like, it's always ghetto until it's it's appropriated. So when you appropriate the language, then it becomes acceptable. And I'm just like, no. Why why do and and it's not even just like, obviously not black people. It's, you know, when we talk about latin people and accents and all of that kind of stuff. Like, people literally study to change their accent and to regret their accent, anybody who's not European, by the way. That's really interesting because I have deliberately changed my accent because this is not the accent I grew up in because I grew up in a very rough northeastern town with an accent that was basically unacceptable for jobs and academic access in London. So I did exactly that. It even happens in in in the UK, like, and that's crazy. Yeah. It does. But that's but that's the thing. Why people can experience white supremacy too? Like, it's a white supremacy is a system. It's not about white people. It's about systems. And so when you talk about systems, one of the things that's embedded in that is language, which is, you know, into but is very intentional towards marginalized communities though. Like, that's that's how they keep you out. You're not professional enough. Those those are barriers, but they also don't give you resources to adjust to what they consider professional. And so it's like this this backhanded slap in the face twice. Like, I can't be myself. You're not gonna give me the resources to be who you want me to be. So what what exactly is it you want me to do here? I just think it's so violent, like and also, you know, excluding words, or, you know, or words that you don't understand, like, name pronunciations. Like, you Phoebe don't look shit like Phoebe is spelled. You can pronounce that. No. But anybody else's name who's not white sounding, Sarah Megan, like these kind of things, you make it seem like it's so difficult to try and figure out how to pronounce their name. No. Correct them every time. Correct them every time. Like, we have to stop buying into these systems. Like, you're not allowed to talk a certain way on the floor or, you know, like, all of those biases, like, that's a black word. You're talking white. It's great. Like, it's crazy to me, but we have to stop buying into these systems. Like, I'm not adjusting. I'm not adjusting the way I talk. I've done it in years. I'm not adjusting the way. If I feel like us and I'm gonna cuss. And also, like you say, This idea this this idea of, quote, unquote, using professionalism as as basically a tool for, like you say, racism and exclusion is just so unacceptable, like, and also it's so cultural. Because what is, you know, professional in one community is not gonna be the same in another. So we we, yeah, we can't just, like, put a blanket over it and say it's all one thing. Yeah. But that's what white supremacy is. That's how it manifests itself. They want you to be one thing. You have to look one way. You have to man. It's so messed up. It's so sad. So let's talk about something amazing because I really want to talk about your cover. For wine enthusiasts, forty under forty, because you were given pride of place and had, as I understand it, a zoom photo shoot, which must be crazier the best of times, and obviously it robbed of an award ceremony, but your decision for the setting, I assume that that was yours because it it's such a powerful cover. I'm hoping that we can find it to share in the social. So how how did you choose that particular design So I when they had so they had emailed us about being chosen to be on the list prior to, like, the George Floyd thing, the the Civil Rights movements that was that was going to happen. And, when they emailed me, I was like, okay. So I'm either gonna if I'm gonna do this, I'm either gonna get the cover or I'm not not gonna do it. And I was just like that was, like, my thought process going into it. So I really just wanted to represent all the things that I stand for and and what was important to me. And I shot this. I'm pretty sure I shot this before I can't remember if I shouted before George Floyd or not. I think so. But it was just really important because I I wanted everything. Like, the wine in the glass was black. My makeup was for black people. The dress was a black designer. The tablet says Juneteenth. Like, I wanted to represent blackness, and it is kinda, like, reminiscent of, like, the statue of liberty. Like, that's it was just fully liberation And that is how I feel the most liberated, like, in my skin with my people, and and I'm just trying to free some people. And that that's exactly what I went for. And I was just like, this is definitely gonna be a little political for them. So they're either going to put me on the cover or they're gonna kick me out. And I had to come to terms with and be okay with either one of them. And I was. I was like, I'm alright with either what. Like, if you decide this is too much for you, that's fine. I won't do it. Like, I I literally just won't be involved in the thing. I'm not changing it though. So I didn't really give them an option. I didn't say these things to them. I kinda just showed up. I, you know, I chose a place that I was like, okay. What looks like I will be standing like the Statue Liberty. I was very intentional about, like, everything. Like, it was super intentional. I knew exactly how I wanted it to look. I knew what I wanted it to feel like. I knew and I had to shoot it twice weeks apart. Yeah. So the first time I shot it, it was in the sweltering sun, like, sweltering. Like, it looks like I'm glistening from I'm glowing on that cover that sweat. And the and then I had to shoot it in the rain. It was raining. Because they they said they didn't feel like they felt like the sun shots were too bright. So they asked me to shoot it again. And the day they we chose to shoot it. And the second time, I had to have my daughter there in the street that we shot it on, it's like a super busy street. And so, you know, at all times, I got, like, what I looking at my daughter to make sure she doesn't run the street? Because she was three at the time, you know, making sure she doesn't go on the street and, you know, and then I am in the in the brain trying to pretend like it's not raining. It's just the first time, you know, it was hot and I was baking, but my daughter wasn't there so I could concentrate a little bit more. But the second time, yeah, it was I mean, it was it was It was a lot. It wasn't, and, you know, you have this, like, this this phone in there trying to, you know, take pictures of you through the phone, through Zoom, and you hear, like, you can kinda hear the camera clicking, but you don't know if they're actually taking pictures. And I'm just like, it was it was a lot. It took a lot to get that cover. And I but I I I knew, like, I was like, I'm not going in. At the time, I didn't know that I would have been the first black woman, which is like yay, but really? Also, what? Yeah. Exactly. I didn't know. So when I went when I went disputed, I didn't know I was would be the first black woman. And then I realized it, like, after I just kept telling my friends, because we weren't supposed to tell anybody. So the the two or three people that I did tell, I just told them, like, yo, I'm gonna get this cover. Like, I'm going for the cover. Like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm going for the cover, they're just, like, you're crazy. I'm like, no. I I mean, aim, aim high. Why not? Yeah. And also, like, it made the cover, and it makes, for me, it made all the statements that you wanted to make. Like, I think it's because it's so striking. And like you say, it's got all of the power, but also the politics involved. So, yeah, I I was very, very pleased to see that you made the cover. So we're running out of time. The producers are gonna kill me for running over. I do this all the time. It's like, it's just such a good conversation. So I need to ask you about actual wine, obviously, and it is the Italian wine podcast. So I should probably ask your husband Italian wine. And I know you do have a particular affinity for pinot noir, but I wondered actually if there is maybe a particular Italian wine that's your your go to if you have a favorite. Is there something you reach for? I love narrow. I love narrow. Love love love love. I think it's just so underrated. And I and the thing is it's it's so affordable, but also I haven't had a producer that was bad. Like, I haven't had a bad narrow. I've had a bad pedo before, but I've never had a bad narrow. And I I also I love a a good barbera I think that, you know, Barbaras are are, like, to me, they're, like, the Italian pinos. Like, obviously, pinos are Italian pinot noirs or Italian pinot noirs, but they they kinda serve, like, that same purpose in the sense of, you know, their their food wines, but they're also easy to drink. And it's Italian wine, like, obviously, in the in the last couple years, they've calmed down a little bit and they're more approachable early on. But Italian wines, you know, when I was coming up, it's like, Yeah. Wait a few years to drink that. So I I had this affinity for Barbara because I could just drink it. Like, it didn't have to wait, or was it, like, fifty years old or twenty years old? Like, you know, like, I have I have some barber I'm some Barescos and bar Barulos in there. That are older, and I still know about the drink. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, actually, because a couple of guests that I've asked this question to have also said Barbara, and I think it's a really underappreciated variety because like you say, you can enjoy it with food. No problem, but you can approach it. It can be approached young, or you can have varieties, white makers are doing it so you can age it. Like, it's just such a great all round choice. And, yeah, narrow my god. So good. That kick of spice in it just naps it for me. It's the best, man. It's like yeah. You definitely live up to your little name, but with spicy black grapes. Yeah. I agree. I feel like that's the perfect one for you. Yeah. A little spicy black grape. It's great. Tara, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation on the Italian White Book yesterday. Where can our listeners find you huge society roots fund on line and on social media? Yeah. So He's society on social media is at the Hughes Society on all social media. The roots fund is is the roots fund is the roots fund. Yeah. I think on all social media as well. And the roots fund, like, if you wanna donate and continue this work is, w w w dot the roots fund dot org. We're always looking for mentors and and donations and, you know, help. And in the roots in the in his society is, w w w dot the huesociety dot com. K. I really encourage our listeners to go to huesociety and the roots fund's website, see the amazing work that Tahira and her colleagues are doing. I mean, seriously, it's gonna blow you away. Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget to follow us on social media, subscribe, and of course you can donate on our website to make sure we can continue to bring these great conversations to you. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe scribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, Chinching.