Ep. 596 Holly Berigan | Voices

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Rebecca Lawrence, and this is voices. In this set of interviews, I will be focusing on issues of inclusion diversity and allyship through intimate conversations with wine industry professionals from all over the globe. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps us cover equipment, production and publication costs, and remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This is the voices series with Rebecca Lawrence, and this week, I'm excited to enjoy a conversation with Holly Beragan. Welcome to the podcast, Holly. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about those. So I like to start many of my conversations by asking my guests to introduce themselves to our listeners. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're currently working on. Yeah. Sure. So I'm Holly Berg, and I'm the founder of Mesa Natural Line, or an online e commerce platform and, Natural Wine Club based out of the US. We actually started as a importing company. And then when, COVID hits, we did a bit of both and the importing was not really as easy, and the e commerce just shot through the sky because of people wanting to order wine online. So that's been our main focus. And then outside of that, I actually also study sustainable agriculture at the University of Massachusetts. So, I focused on Viticulture. So maybe someday I'll make some wine. We'll see. So did you start in the wine industry or did you have other ideas about what you might do with sustainable agriculture? Yeah. So, the sustainable agriculture part really did come from wine. But before that, my actual journey into wine, I studied diplomacy when I was in college, and I actually used to work at the Embassy in Rome. I worked at the British Embassy. And after I moved back to the US, I started doing consulting. And while I was doing that, I realized that I probably was not going to end up being a diplomat, just because of some personal circumstances. I was like, well, what did I love about it? I loved speaking Italian, French and Spanish. I loved traveling. And I was just like, well, what else can I do? That was wine. I love wine. I love food. So that's just kind of how I I exited consulting. And thought I wanted to import wine, and then it just ultimately ended up being, more on the e commerce side and specifically in the niche of natural wine just because I've always been passionate about sustainability, so that just kinda went hand in hand. Yeah. That's like a nice way to bring together all of your interests and all of your skills. Like you say, the languages, the travel, but also sustainable agriculture, which is becoming increasingly more important for the wine industry and increasingly more talked about, I think. For sure. So at one stage, did you decide to set up Mesa? Because it's it's obviously, it's a quite a brave choice. You're just, you know, getting into one. Okay. Well, just go for it and start an important company. It's honestly not at all a sexy story, but it is a funny and interesting one for people to maybe learn from. So, I was working in consulting, and I was basically terribly unhappy and making a lot of money. And I was like and I read I read a book, like, I'm sure you might read the book, like, Rich Dad Poorad, and there was one specifically about, like, taxes. And the book was talking about setting up companies and having using that to, offset some of your taxes. So I was like, okay. Well, I know I don't wanna do consulting long term, and I really love wine. I, like, started the w set program, and I was like, I love this. Sunday, I will turn this into something. And, like, at least in the US, you have, like, five years from when you start a company to when you need to start making money. So I was, like, I haven't got a five year runway to figure out what it is. And it came a lot quicker than I thought it would, which is great, but initially was just like, oh, like, like, I, you know, I worked with the Italian trade organization a lot. And so I would go on each trip, Italy, that they would help me with, finding producers. And I was able to expense all of that for the first couple of years while I was figuring out what I was doing. And then by the second year, I met my now partner, at the consulting firm, and he was very into digital marketing. He kinda figured out the entire e commerce part of it. And I was like, oh, well, this is taking off a lot faster than I thought. So we, we started the wine club then and left our jobs probably, like, eight months after that or six months after we started the club. So, that was kind of, like, taxes is where I started at the company, but but also because I love live. But that was, like, that's kinda what made me take the jump. It felt safe and, like, this thing that I was passionate about. And the worst case scenario was that I would not be able to figure out how to make the company work and I'd just shut it down after a couple of years. But I knew that I would. Like, I'm, like, I'm the very, like, ambitious person. So I knew that at if I started it, I was gonna see it through. And sometimes you just kinda have to start even if you don't know exactly how it's gonna go. So that's knowing what I know now when I have done it this way, no chance. But here we are, and that's kind of, you know, ignorance is bliss in some ways. Well, actually, that was that leads me nicely onto one of my other questions, which was gonna be, like, what advice do you have you know, now you are that little bit further down the line, and obviously you you've tackled this incredibly challenging period where you've essentially had to change the the model of what you've been doing. So I wondered if you could share some nuggets of advice for people who are are thinking of taking that leap and maybe need some hot tips of maybe about what to do, but also what not to do. Yeah. So I think that there are the main things that I've been at least talking about. I've done a few, like, business, loan and business things lately, and learning that I've been talking to him about are that, hey, I always just joke. I'm like, don't sell wine online. It's very difficult. It's so much harder in the US than it is in the in the EU. We have a ton of friends that have amazing, like, programs in the EU and it's set up really well for it. And we've been able to figure it out, but, like, the amount of hardship that we've had to go through to really make it work. I don't wish that on other people. We're very happy where we are now, but it is not easy. But the other thing but I mean, like, of course, it's of course possible. And if people are interested in that, I'm happy to talk with them more about it. But, I think that the natural line space, like, if people are interested in natural wine. I truly believe that, like, right now is, like, an amazing time to be, exploring that further. And I think that, like, it's becoming really hot for wine shops, wine bars, restaurants, like, it is making it. Like, there's so many people getting into all aspects of natural line. So we, you know, have this niche within the e commerce space, but, like, your local communities are, like, just they're starting to grow so much more. Like, you know, it used to just be, you'd find it in New York and maybe you'd find it in Boston or whatever. But now, like, I mean, I'm originally from Oklahoma. And, like, I went to the local wine store next to my Grammy's house, and there was natural wine. So, like, it's really coming about. And it's a really good time if you are interested in natural wine to, like, start any business really, like, related to that because I think that there's a ton of interest in it from, like, the general public and it's a really big It's a it's a teeny niche. It's growing like exponentially. Like organic wine is growing a ton. I think it's like twenty five percent year over year or something. And not natural wine is such a small subsection of organic wine, but I'm my bet, I don't actually know because, you know, the definition is so loose, but my bet is that it's growing way more quickly than even the organic wine is. Yeah. I was gonna say we're definitely I'm, obviously, from the the UK perspective, it's been growing there certainly for the last five to six years. And in the kind of trade sector definitely has been huge for a little while. And now we're really seeing that trickle into the retail and the consumers are hunting it out more and more. But even here in Italy, there's definitely a a movement of this love from natural wine, people seeking out natural wine and a and a move to making more of it. I wondered if you if you had any experience or any thoughts about maybe why now, why this is happening now, and and is there a particular type or group of consumer that you're particularly seeing, not just buying, but repeat buying. Yeah. I think that it all if I do, like, narrow it down to one thing, I really believe that it's a generational shift because I think whether you look at the producers or you look at the consumers, like, we're all looking a little bit similar. We're probably like millennial gen x, gen z. No. Wait. Yeah. Gen, gen x, y, and z, basically, like, are all people that have interest and, like, growing with each generation in organic produce in being more local in the way that they consume. And so I think that that, you know, like, so many producers that we work with in Italy and Austria all over Europe, especially because they're more likely to inherit vineyards than than our American producers are. They're making these generational shifts in the vineyards. And I think that that's, like, also, you know, they're they're making what they want to drink and typically, like, their peers, which are us, are also the people that are wanting to drink that. So I I think that it's just gonna continue to grow because I think that millennials, like, I work with millennials and, like, I believe that probably both of us think, you know, we look at the things are buying and say, like, oh, like, is this organic, like, where did it come from? And I believe that, like, gen z is even more passionate about it than millennials are. So I think that we're gonna just continue to see an increase in like, conscious consuming, I guess. And natural wine just fits really well in that category. Yeah. I also I totally agree with all of that, and I think you're right that it's a natural extension of this. Love for, you know, wanting to make sure that what you're buying is sustainable. It has sustainability, not just in the sense of, like, being, you know, organic and sustainable, but for the effort to enter in other practices, so how you treat your workers and how you deal with people just generally, you know, sustainability across the board. And like you say, this move towards a more conscious consuming. I personally think one of the things that the natural a wine world has done particularly well, has it's recognized its market and has marketed to it. So the marketing of natural wine, the branding of natural wine is very different to what the wine world has traditionally seen. And I think this is a really clever way of of taking this great product and saying, well, we'll share it. We'll make it appealing to as many people as possible. Yep. Oh, yeah. I think that, you know, it's a it's a double edged sword because it's like the QT labels and stuff. Like, some people think that it makes it not serious, but natural one can be serious. But, like, I think that anyone that's looking to, like, downplay that is really just thinking about it from the perspective of, like, trying to, I gotta just stop what I'm about to say. Because otherwise, I'm about to say something that might offend some people. So let me just let me just back up. I think that the people that like to hate on natural line for it being either, like, thinking that it or or sorry. The people that think that the, like, fun labels make natural wine less serious are also the people that assume that natural wine is just glue glue. And, like, that's just a category and a part of natural wine, and it's an amazing one. And I think it's so fun and it's a great way to bring people in, but it's, like, very short sighted and that you there's so many other pieces of that, like, you know, DRC is also natural line. So, like, it it just kind of excludes this entire larger picture of what natural line is. So I think, you know, and honestly, I think, like, maybe they're a little bit also haters. Like, you know, they're, like, like, like, you said, like, the marketing is going so well. Like, we've been able to bring in so many people to natural wine because they're like, oh, what, like, cool labels? What a crazy looking color? You know what I mean? And then, but the people say because it's great wine. So Yeah. It it tastes good and they trust its provenance. And and also think that sort of fun marketing doesn't necessarily mean that the wines are whimsical. These are serious wines you know, people are thinking very seriously about how they're farming. You know, it's harder to farm for sustainability in many ways than it is to farm using big agricultural practices. You know, these are not whimsical wines. They are very serious, but It is a section of the wine industry that doesn't take itself too seriously, and I think that's another thing that really appeals to this new generation of wine drinkers. It's opened the doors for wine. So it's not something where you know, you have to know your vintages, and you have to know your producers, and, you know, you have to get really geeky about it. You know, you need to know all the tech specs. You know, it is just something that you can enjoy and be comfortable enjoying it because of its prominent. And I think that's really important as a conversation to continue in mind. Yeah. I think that it's nice too because on a larger scale, it's making wine accessible to more people and easy to understand. And I don't think that, like, I don't think the traditional ways of you know, understanding classical wines need to go away. Like, I'm love nerding out as much as the next person about, you know, cruise and vintages or whatever. But most of the time, probably ninety percent of the time, I just wanna have a really nice wine with my food. And just, like, chill. You know? So and that's how most people are. Like, it's such a small subset of people that truly want to learn all of those things. I think it's great. I think that should still continue on, but, like, the ninety percent of the, probably, more, ninety five percent of the nine line world needs to, like, be able to access it and feel comfortable asking questions and understanding. And I think that's just an easy way to do it in the natural wine world. I think because natural wine is ultimately more expensive than conventional wine, it's helpful to have, like, ways to make it seem accessible or sexy or exciting to buy it because otherwise, like, if you're just looking if all the bottles look the same and, like, the natural white like same as the conventional wine, and it was thirty versus the conventional was fifteen. You're probably not gonna buy the natural wine because it all just looks the same versus. It's like making it more appealing. I was actually about to lead into questions about Italian wine. So as you said, you've lived, and worked in several countries, one of those being Italy, and you do speak Italian, which is always really handy in the wine industry because you could just have those geeky conversations that you wanna have with winemakers. So I wondered if there were any particular Italian natural wines that you like or if there's, like, a favorite region that you've been exploring. Yeah, tell us a little bit about your Italian wine experience. Yeah. I mean, I just love Italian wine. Like, when I first started out with the business, like, my the very first place I went to was, the Italian wine I I TA would be Italian trade organization specifically the wine part of it because I knew those people from my previous work. So I initially I I probably met with, like, I don't know, the hundred, like, natural winemakers in Italy versus maybe. I did live in Spain for a year after, so I guess maybe a little bit few more Spanish ones, but after Spain now, Italian. And I love, like, honestly, like, so many regions. I think what my general when I talk to people about natural wine in Italy is I'm, like, I think that people generally unwind get really caught up in Kianti or they get really caught up in, like, Rulo. And, like, of course, there are some really good natural winemakers in those regions, and I love those wines. But I think that natural wine is having really exciting things happening. Like, honestly, I think Sicily is already so hot. Like, everyone knows about it. It's discovered. But like Calabrio. Like Calabrio has really ended up having a really interesting moment, because they yeah. So there's that one, and then there's another one or, like, at least the region that it's called, like, It's like one of, like, Jiro. That's it. So there's, like, one, specific wine that, like, is just, like, the best price performing natural wine. It's it's called Jiro. I think it's, like, right from that area. And, like, it's really putting Calabria on the map. And we've had some amazing ones. Like, I think it's called Minats, like, that's new producer from there. Like, I think that they're just really making these amazing wines that are, like, super historic. It's, like, wines from the Olympics, like, thousands of years ago, but, like, no one's ever heard of them. You know? So I think that natural wine's gonna be really great at putting, like, Pulia, Calabria. Definitely, like, basically what's done for Sicily, I think it will start doing for the rest of the bottom of the boot. But then also, like, I honestly love, like, one of the wines we first imported was about Polycellas. So we had, like, an amorone, we had a Balicella, and those were just unbelievable, like, beautiful and, like, you know, sort of traditional, but not quite because, like, they were able to get the designation, but make everything naturally. I'm always so impressed when natural winemakers are able to do that because so many times it's hard to work within the confines of the doc or the docG and still be able to make your natural wine. So I've been obsessed with them. Their name is Elmontecado, and I just love them so much. So those two regions are great. And I think I really just I'm interested to see with, like, like, even like Melissa, or, like, umbria. Like, we're just gonna start seeing way more wines that are coming out of the less known regions. And I just love that. I love seeing that, I I mean, even just, like, new countries coming on the map, like, Sweden's starting to make wine. Like, this is crazy. You know? So I just think it's so fun and funny to kind of see what natural wine is kind of doing for for every country that it's working, and I really believe that it's putting. Like, for example, like, the Calabrio thing, same deal, like, Rhine Hessen in Germany, like, in conventional wine world, we're not normally focusing on Rhine Hessen, but so many natural producers are coming out of there, and they're, like, really putting their stamp on on, like, German wine in that regard. So it's really exciting. And yeah. Italian wines are just great. Like, you can't put them all in. Yeah, there's so many different styles and types and oh, I also think that just talking broadly about my experience with natural wine in Italy. I think that they do a wonderful job of making, orange wines, like the skin contact wines that come out of Italy. I feel like it's unreal. Like, obviously, you know, it traditionally starts from Georgia, but then, like, you know, the like Grabner and Radicon, like, those guys are just so iconic and the way that they're producing these orange wines is just unbelievable. So they, like, are really setting the stage for what everyone else is trying to replicate in the rest of the world. So we're just gonna continue to see really interesting. I think both regions coming out of Italy and styles of wine coming out of Italy. And I think that a lot of that's gonna populate from the the natural wine movement. Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought up the the skin contact wines because they're actually one of the things that really made me fall in love, not just with Italian wine, but actually with white wine in particular, as someone who is traditionally just was a red wine drinker. I was really searching for that kind of extra depth in a white wine, something that would maybe make it stand out a little bit for me, and adding that extra depth, that texture or component, Yeah. It really launched me into my love affair. Yeah. Not just with Italian wine, but with white wine. And also drew my attention to some of those, like you said, the smaller regions, like Molize, that maybe people don't immediately think of when they think of Italian wine, but now through natural wine, in particular, I'm really getting to kind of set their set their stall out on the scene. So, I'm so glad that you could bring those up. So Thank you so much for this fantastic conversation today, Holly. Thank you. And for joining me on the Italian wine podcast, where can our listeners find you online or on social media? Yeah. So it's misa dot wine. It's actually our website and our Instagram handle. That's the easiest place to find us. We also have, like, a Facebook group for people learning about natural line. But if you basically just look misa dot line, you'll be able to find us on all the channels. So check out Holly's social media, check out me, sir. Thank you everyone for listening. Don't forget to follow us on social media, subscribe, and, of course, donate on the website so that we can make sure these great conversations keep flowing. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianline podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time, Chinching.