Ep. 606 Cara Bertone | Voices

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Rebecca Lawrence, and this is voices. In this set of interviews, I will be focusing on issues of inclusion diversity, and allyship through intimate conversations with wine industry professionals from all over the globe. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating to Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps us cover equipment, production and publication costs, and remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast with me Rebecca Lawrence. Today, I'm joined by Cara Botoni to discuss the work she's doing with Lyft Connective. Welcome to the podcast, Cara. Thank you. Glad to be here. So I wonder if you could start by telling us a little bit about how Lyft Collective came about and also how you came to be their vice president. Yes. So lift collective, it was formally wonder women of wine. And the name change happened last year, but just to give you a little bit of, you know, understanding and background, I think I think you also had Ranya Zayat on the podcast before and She's the founder of Wonder Woman of Wine and Now Lyft collective. So the name change actually happened sort of during the pandemic, but I think it was something that was probably going to to evolve anyways just by the nature of it. So Wonder Woman of Wine was great. In and and getting direction for the nonprofit and and sort of like, you know, wanting to to pay attention to voices that just have not been heard and historically women's voices just don't get hurt a lot in in the wine industry. Or in a lot of industries to to be perfectly honest. And so so there was somewhat of a movement, and I believe that, you know, you you had wonder women of wine here in Austin, Texas. You also had Batonanage for him in the northern part of California. Austin Blanche came about also back in twenty nineteen. So there's quite a bit of this sort of, collection of, of, you know, grassroots organizations that were coming up that really wanted to start paying attention to some of the things that aren't getting talked about in the everyday happenings in business of wine. So that happened in in previous to me joining Lyft Collection. I'd actually started a local group here in Austin, Texas. There was a group of us women sort of in leadership roles within Austin, and also women who are aspiring to have leadership roles in the wine industry in Austin, Texas. And and so I just sort of put together a group of thought leaders, really, and sort of like, how can we pioneer and change. And and rania was one of those people that that, that I brought into the circle. And after many great conversations between rania and myself, she asked if I would join Wonder Woman of Wayne with her as she was forming, five zero one three and needed board members. And so I sat down and had a a meeting with the board members, and it was sort of Kismet. It it it was, sort of instantaneous. You know, you get around a group of people and you realize wow. Okay. Great. This is exactly something that that, I wanna be a part of. Literally, the second that we get into to having a board and forming the five zero one c three and getting ready for our second virtual or second conference that was gonna happen in late March of twenty twenty, we all know what happened. So it was some somewhat of a shock, I think, because, you know, you're one year out. You've had one actual event that's taken place, the the conference that happened in March of twenty nineteen, which was extremely successful. And now we had more people. We had some learnings. We were gonna change things, develop stuff for an in person conference in March twenty twenty. And when that sort of, fell apart during the beginning of the pandemic, there were so many things that were happening There were quite a few other organizations that decided to sort of pivot quickly and and, move everything onto a virtual platform, their conferences, which was great. I wanna tell you that that was not some, that was nowhere in, in a space or, or an understanding that we were ready take on during the beginning of the pandemic. I have two young children. They're now six and four, but then they were just turning five and three. So it was extremely challenging in so many respects, time wise, in particular, but, you know, so many people are losing their jobs. Best friends, I've been in the industry for twenty years, and just seeing a lot. I started off in restaurants, so seeing a lot of my friends who had dedicated, you know, a good chunk of their lives just their jobs going poof. And that's it. And then unless they and if they had some sort of vested interest or if they were founders of restaurants or or restaurant groups, their everything their fortune was gone, not fortune, but you understand what I'm saying? Like, everything was just gone. And so, you know, there was a lot to sort of sit and digest I think. And so when we first started having these conversations of of what do we do next? I mean, there was probably three months where we all just sat and really tried to understand what was happening in our own worlds versus, like, you know, just jumping in. And so, at the, like, middle of May is when we started having conversations. Okay. Let's let's think about taking some of these some of these panels that we were gonna have live and and pivot to a virtual setting. And the first one we thought about was, diversity equity inclusion panel, and we got on a call with what would have been the moderator one of the panelists. And we just started having sort of this open discussion and from the time that we set the call up in May to the time we actually had the call in June, the murder of George Floyd happened. And so this set amongst, like, just so many different things at this point in time of how many marginalized groups there are within within the industry, but just more in particular, just in don't have a voice. And so when we start thinking about wonder woman of wine, yes, women don't have a voice in a lot of scenarios, But we're not the only ones that don't have a voice. Right? So so women of color have a lesser voice than than than white women in the industry. Right? And then and so on and so forth, you can go down sort of a rabbit hole, but what we started thinking about and realizing is that Yes. We are fighting for something, you know, that's great and and wanting to do things for women to help elevate them, but it's not just about elevation of women. It's elevation of marginalized groups in general. So the more that you elevate marginalized groups as a whole and as a collective the more you can accomplish because we're not we're not separate. Right? We can't separate ourselves out. We have to be able to do this as a community. And, you know, that initial conversation led to our job fair be the change job fair that happened, first in December and then in in April. So those conversations literally once the the idea of the job fair, came up in in discussion. It was probably about sixty days of us sort of going out, asking a couple of people, what do you think about this idea? Do you think, you know, would you be able to support this idea? And within sixty days, it was sort of, like, if you don't do this, you know, you'll be saying, like, there there was no there was no way we couldn't do it was something that just came. It was born, and it had so much energy and so much life to it, and so many people involved in in the helping of, of producing it that we just we had to, go that way. And so once that first job fair was done, Iran really sat with for a long time looking at, you know, ideas of new names because she knew at that point that wonder woman of wine, it's not that it wasn't a great name in and of itself, but it really didn't embody what we needed to be doing as a whole. So we wanted to have all voices included, and so lift collective was then, born name wise out of that. And so we still have a a huge women base for lift collective, for sure, but we have a lot more voices that are coming in and a lot more, community members that are involved that aren't just solely women, which is which is great. I think it's really interesting to see, yeah, how that developed and also that, you know, you guys were brave enough to take the decision and say, you know, we we did have this initial direction. But we recognize that there's more to be done, and we can still do that. You know, all we need to do is just run the net a little bit, and and we can welcome so many more people, and like you said, lift so many more people in this way and give this broader understanding of what needs to be happening in the industry, the sort of changes that need to be made. I think it's really important that that you made that decision to go. No. We're not just gonna stick with this because it's how we started. You adapted incredibly quickly to recognizing the other needs that were out there. I did wanna ask a little bit about be the change and maybe what the feedback from that has been and the sort of ongoing impact of that because it's quite an unusual thing. You don't have, like, inclusivity job fairs really. You know, that's actually an unusual format generally, I think, for the industry. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about what you what you hope to get from it and what you have gotten from it. It's a extremely, like, learning curve. So, I will say that the running joke in the beginning was we're not in the business of of job fairs. We're gonna do this, because we know it's needed in the industry. People need jobs. People are being disproportionately affected. With all of these grassroots, women's organizations, you have the same thing happening in other marginalized communities. So You have black wine professionals, hue society, roots fund, one, unify, sci unity, all of these different organizations that really are trying to help, affect and marginalized groups or or breaking into the industry as a marginalized, like, group. How do you do that? And there are so many things that we're learning right now. I know more about job fairs now than I ever thought. I I was ever gonna know in my entire life. I know way more about online event platforms than I ever thought I was gonna know, in my life, and and it's great. But what I do know in the short term, what we've learned is that there's so much more that needs to be learned in in this space. So what the idea is now is to really sort of start bringing way more voices to this to help build it better period. So what we've learned is that, or what I've taken from it quite frankly, is that they're the wine industry is self is really sort of marketed directly towards consumers that aren't necessarily have any sort of marginalized background. Right? So there's so many people who just don't, don't think about wine as a concept of of something that they they would enjoys a beverage. It's sort of a very specific group. And so how do you invite groups into something that doesn't really identify them as a group that should be marketed to? It it's such there's so many things and so many onions to, like, unpack on this. What we've learned is that there's there's community within each of these smaller groups that is really sort of driving this desire of wanting to change. And so the only way there there's there's two huge things that are happening. So We are working with organizations to to help build a candidate base, a base of, a group of people who are looking for jobs that are of marginalized communities. We, by no stretch of the imagination, we are completely inclusive as, as an entity. So if you are a middle aged white man looking for a job in the beverage or wine space, wine and spirits now, come to the job fair. That's that's okay. We want we want everyone to be there. We don't want this to be exclusionary by any stretch of imagination, but what we are doing is making sure that we're working with organizations that inherently have a a base or community that is marginalized in nature, if that makes sense. Right? So what we're bringing in are are going to be people who are looking for jobs that maybe haven't typically been in the industry. And so what we're sort of trying to to figure out now is that, like, there's there's not a huge, like, a big story about how how do they fit in? How do you fit in when when this industry hasn't done it? So what's happening right now? So you have this candidate base that is interested in the wine industry, wants to be part of the wine industry, has has a great capability. So they may have come from restaurant. Maybe they came from other CPG, consumer product or packaged goods, other other parts of the industry just not in beverage yet. But what we're realizing is that, you know, from a top down level, we have the opportunity to bring people in. But if the culture isn't inviting, how do you get them to stay? If it's not inclusive, how do you how do you get them to stay? And so that's the biggest challenge. And so the first job fair was all about let's get this messaging out there. Let's try to find jobs, but we were also in December of twenty twenty. So we're verging on the winter, the the the big winter where nobody knew what was really going to happen. Right? So most budgets for hiring were really sort of tight for big organizations. And so you we saw some people get hired, but we saw more people get hired probably in that March, April sort of time frame. So once budgets came out, once people were ready to, like, actually put in in put on paper how much they were willing to spend, but everybody was sort of dedicated to this. Like, let's let's change the face of the industry, which is which is great, you know, the hiring managers, HR directors. Right? But really what we need is the vision to come from the pop down. So it doesn't matter if you're pulling people in. If they get in and they don't see anybody else that looks like them or that thinks like them. Right? Then then then what's the point? Right? So the second job fair really leaned into that idea of having conversations with executives. Really like, look, this isn't just about this isn't just about a feel good story. If you're not changing the structure internally or organizationally for it to make sense to include more voices, and different bodies. Like, this is this is pointless because this is gonna this is gonna be an exercise. I mean, think about it this way, you know, back in the nineteen nineties, it was all about, you know, women didn't have you know, the the the numbers weren't there, like, so men still made up seventy percent or seventy five percent of this industry. And so everybody did this mad push to invite women in, in hiring women. So now we're closer to fifty fifty. If not, women might have more more jobs, When you look at the equity of it, men are still earning seventy to seventy five percent of the dollars, even though the numbers are the same. And that to me is, like, just mind blowing. So there has to be this discussion of this can't be another ticking of the box where we just bring in a bunch of bodies to say that we did this thing, it has to come from the top. There has to be a different leadership that understands what it means, and and quite frankly, the next generations. If you if you don't pivot now, so the second job fair was really about having these hard discussions with people at the top and it's going to take time for that discussion to filter down but the magnitude in which people are putting dollars towards this change internally is unlike anything I've ever seen before. So you're seeing a lot of organizations that are out there with with fluff who who tick the box by celebrating pride this month by posting on LinkedIn or with an Instagram or whatever, and you see that and you sit back, and and I, and I, sometimes I have to just take a deep breath and know that, you know, that's where they're at, that's where they're at in their journey, and at least they're there. And not completely out of the journey. And then you have other people who are really sort of pioneering this, like, want and desire for change. So, we had a a leadership panel, a DNI executive insights suite where we took, Robert Hansen from Constellation, it's here Charles from Moitt, Tennessee, and James Harris of H EB. That panel was so charged and poised for understanding of what people are definitively try to make a mark, like, we're not gonna sidestep this anymore. We are really going to implement things that provide inclusion practices within within our internal structures. There there's been a lot of, you know, talk about people like, incorporating implicit bias training, which that's great. But if I, great, I learn about am I implicit bias? What does that mean for how I am going to continue acting? Just because I know that I have implicit bias doesn't necessarily mean I'm gonna change my actions. How do you change accents? Having ERG groups? Great. So you have ERG groups where people can get together and talk about you know, some of the things that they can do to change. That those are awesome, but also when you have a microcosm inside of something is is big as a as a large wholesaler, but it's it's these small groups. They it's a loop. To, like, a sounding board. So, like, you actually don't get out. Right? And so you say sort of confined in. And, I mean, internally in a lot of our I'm not gonna name names, but you have, you know, like, women's groups within organizations. And inside of those women's groups, it's like there are these leadership groups where there's, you know, like someone is a woman of higher stature is supposed to pull a younger woman, bring them up. If you don't have any anyone from your executive team attending those male executives attending those to help understand and identify what may be issues internally, you can't leave that up to women to change that. You have to be in the room listening. So I think a lot of times what happens is is, again, you throw money at this thing. You're hoping it's gonna change. But if you're not involved in the process, it's not gonna change. So what we're hearing now is, that is coming down from some of these really key players in the industry as soon as they start implementing things, and they can start identifying key. Like, if you can grab key ideas from different, you know, industry leaders, it's it's a matter of time. It will take time, but things will start to fall in. To place. So it's little bits by little bits. And so what we're learning now, we we partnered with thurgood Marshall College Fund for the April event, which was amazing. And so we actually reached out to their scholars that were graduating this year for May for May graduation. And so we invited them to join the job fair, which is exciting. One of the things that I learned most about this in in in mind you, the job fair happened two days after the verdict of Derek Shovan. And so a lot of the the candidates that would be coming in from, could be coming in from Third and Marshall. I think had a lot of our candidates had something completely else on their mind. They they it was it was an interesting week. Let's put it that way for for a lot of reasons. But one of the things that I started thinking about is that, you know, I had this idea in mind, you know, it's, I think, sixty different colleges that they're connected with. So it's historically black colleges and universities that are public that are within the third of Marshall College Fund, like umbrella. And so what we had is we were working with someone, their team that sort of sits at the top, and then they would go out to each of their universities and sort of, let everyone know that there's a job fair or come join us. What I started thinking about too? Is it like, well, if if we have never, as an industry, really sort of catered to the desires or wants or needs or or anything of of some marginalized communities or or black communities, they might see this job here and just think, why would I I don't drink wine or, you know, like, none of my friends are in it, none of my family members are in it. Nobody's been in it. Why would I Why would I do that? You know, so there's so many ideas that I started thinking about, like, wow. So for, like, next next go around, it's sort of like, how do you engage that next generation to want to? Be a part of this industry. Right? How do we become a cool industry that really under like, is trying to, you know, diversify thought and how how we are looking at humanity and how we are making sure that we're paying it back to the earth's resources as well. Like, how can we be more thoughtful in how we are looking at this industry as a whole? Right? And I'm I'm I'm a, firm believer in sort of benefit corporate corporation ideals, triple bottom line. So when you're not just looking at profits, you're looking at multiple different things across the spectrum for for for how you look at business and and being more holistic and thoughtful about business. And so that's when I started realizing that, you know, it's not even that it's a much bigger problem on our hands, but we are so antiquated and we're so steadfast on being, this is the way it's always been and this is the way it's always going to be and you're not doing it right. You have to do it this way. You know, there's really not been a lot of opportunity for intentional, like, innovation, really. So we've just been stuck. I think culturally, in this industry for so long. So I that's sort of like the next iteration of my mind is how do we make it really not just not just about bringing in marginalized, Chris. How do we make this more holistic for everyone to want to come in, to want to come in and and be a part of this industry. And that's something that is a big takeaway for me at how we're how we're going to shift next with, with Lyft collective would be the change with anything that I'm sort of working with. Yeah. I was actually you've you've managed to basically preempt all of my questions because I was gonna I was gonna talk to you, ask you to talk a little bit about this this idea of you know, it's it's not just a problem of non inclusivity in the presence of diversity, but also an environment in which all people can feel comfortable and welcomed. And this process can't, yeah, it can't just start from grassroots. It has to come from every level I think of the industry. And I was I was gonna ask you to talk a little bit about what other changes you think should be being made in corporations. And I I think this idea of the kind of triple bottom line is a really interesting one for people to consider. Triple bottom line, circular economics. Like, when when you think about capitalism, woo hoo. I I mean, you could dive into that conversation for hours, days, months, whatever. But really, all you're doing is stealing from one thing to to create something out of out of somewhat nothing. Right? So there's nothing that gives back when you look at the true capitalism model. And you're not you're not worried about what happens to finite resources. You're not worried about what happens to your stakeholders or the people who work for you. You're worried about people who have given you money to create this thing so that you can create more wealth for them we have to be looking at this as a more holistic way because if you don't, I mean, climate, climate change. Let's just we can talk we could talk about this for for, again, for forever, but in until you see that, and what I what I'm seeing right now, and it's something that's big for me is that I I see a lot of universities that are actually, offering now in in their business classes and and schools that, you know, the thought process is it can't just be about profitability anymore. And so you're seeing that dynamic and you're seeing that education happen right now. But how long before those those those people make it up the ladder? Right? So if we can somehow start seeding that those possibilities, those conversations now at the at the executive level. Right? And people start managing that up, then I think that we will see see more of that. Truly all it takes is one or two companies to make that switch in this industry, and it's gonna change. I think quickly. I mean, one of the, so there's a benefit corporation certification, B Corp certification. There's only a few wineries that have done it. So you see it more in the beer, industry. You don't really see it so much in spirits, but vets or vineyards, signed on an early adopter for Benefit Corporation B certification, which I thought was that was like, really Fedser did that. That's like, that's I I don't I I, you know, had this idea of what I thought who who I thought would be early adopters, but you have, I think, either Solena or maybe Socal Bloss or somebody, a couple of, those in Oregon. Oregon's got quite a few smaller producers that are, that are certified as well. But all it takes is one big adapter to sort of come in and start making that shift internally. Because as soon as I mean, if you think about it, if you're working from a holistic viewpoint, you your supply chain will have to to change as well. So if you're looking internally about, like, Oh, we need, you know, grape resources. Yeah. Let's just go do buy a whole bunch from x y z in Spain. Right? And there's Southern part of Spain. There's plenty of resources. Right? Let's not we don't have to worry about depletion of resources here in the US. I mean, in if you start looking at them and saying, hey, I need you to tweak a few things. Maybe start can can you guys look a little bit of a, you know, regenerative culture, can you start taking a look at a couple of different things that would better sustain our relationship and our business? It's not just about the quick profit, but it's about long term. Once you start having those conversations, then if it's part of who you are, investors coming to you that are putting money in are also in that same mindset. Right? So it's just it's just it brings it all the way back. And sorry, sometimes I talk in. No. It's great. It's great. One of the things I was gonna say, bring up is that I think there's historically been this idea that, working in a holistic or sustainable way mutually exclusive to working in a way that might be profitable. And what I one of the things I think that I'm hoping we're gonna see is that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, you know, that you do need to make a profit as a company. You do need to be a company that can sustain itself because not least you need to be able to pay the people who work for you, but this doesn't have to mean that you can't put these things into practice. You know, that you can't start looking at more sustainable or holistic ways of working within your your company, your your corporation. And that by bringing those in incrementally and gradually, you can still make potentially big changes. Like you say, it just takes one large company to say, Okay. We're gonna change this small part of what we're doing and see what impact that has. And then suddenly, there's that lovely ripple effect where that works. So it just broadens out. And I think this is something that companies really do need to be considering as as a sustainable business model? I believe that we're on the precipice of that right now. So I believe that there are a lot of people that they're just trying to figure out how to roll it out. That's what I think is happening. And so I think that you are going to see a couple of big business companies in the next one to two years that are gonna roll out some pretty hefty plans on how they plan on, you know, combating climate change internally, but, like, also, you know, like, making sure that that they are looking at their employees, their stakeholders, of of their business, and how they can better impact and help those stakeholders. It's not just about shareholders. Right? So it's about really believing in their team. And, letting their team sort of help drive what what goals they have into the future. But, yeah, I I couldn't agree with you more. Like, I I there there's gotta be implementation. And I I think from the conversations that we had conversations with so many different organizations and so many different executive level conversations where I just sat back and let them sort of some people love to talk at you because that's that was that was their, you know, it was their microphone moment to talk to somebody about, you know, their ideas and some of them or just that talking at you, but some of them, you could just you could see the spark in the back of the head. Like, it wasn't something that they had read and regurgitated to you. It was something that they were really sort of feeling, and they and and they were just trying to figure out how they could Let me I'm gonna be working with these four leaders across the company to see if we can implement this and make sure that we're doing it in a correct way. And they were also bringing in other middle level management to to the conversation, which I thought was also great. Right? Cause if you just have this team of people of executives only, thinking that that, it's it's it's almost this this reverse mentorship in a way. Right? So you bring down and other people have these ideas that this never get to the top because nobody ever sits down and listens, right, which is great. So, yeah, Yeah. We we could be at a a really exciting point for the industry in in so many aspects of the industry. So I'm gonna lighten the tone a little because it is the Italian wine podcast, and I can't let you go without talking about Italian wine. So I wondered what your history is with Italian wine is maybe they're a particular wine that, represents your experience of Italy. That's your sense memory of Italy. So my last name is Brittone. I'm I'm half I'm half Italian, and my family my grandmother is from Naples and my grandfather. He'll he would tell me that he was from Sicily, but really he was from Melissa, but he spent like his, like, I wanna say late teens, early twenties, in Sicily. And so I think that was cooler for him to say Sicily than Melissa was. But, I will say this. So when I got into wine and restaurant side of things, and I was working on the floor and and and beverage director, and I would go through phases. Right? So something something would be cool. So, like, you know, all sauce was all of a sudden like, you know, Tiffany, mind blown. Right? Like, oh my god. It's sunkissed, you know, riesling or or whatever. Right? You go through these moments. So then it was, you know, whether it be Germany or then you I would go to to Australia wherever there was always like this six week thing, and I remember going through the Sherry phase, which is not a good phase to go through on the floor of a restaurant. I'll tell you that. I'm sure my guests lied to me, but I don't really know how much I remember from those days. And so I went through all of these sort of like, you know, not ebbs and flows, just different. I was so excited about wine, and so I was always excited. Burgundy was a huge favorite. You know, I nebbiello, obviously, like who doesn't love nebbiello. But I remember specifically going through this Kianti phase. I was probably twenty five or twenty six at the time. And I remember thinking in my head, like, okay, I'll get to Kianti, and then I'll be on to the next thing. But Kianti to me was such like this this, like, funny thing because, you know, Kianti, especially at that point in time, Kianti was like, oh, you don't drink, you know, you hear that you're not supposed to drink Kianti, but all the cool kids were drinking. Sangiovese, and I was sort of like, am I supposed to like it? Am I not supposed to like it? But I fell in love with it. I mean, and and I started doing all these classes on the different types of San Giovanni from Tuscany. All over. And I'm just like, oh, my god. The idea that San Giovanni can be so different yet have this theme no matter what area of Tuscany than you're in San Giovanni is San Giovanni, but so completely different and it's not sand like, it's it's total and you understand in that moment why there are so many different names to San Jose because it's it's got its own identity, just dependent upon where it is within the region. So for me, and to this day, like, like, if my wife is not allowed to touch this, like, she's not allowed to touch the county unless I say that and what I mean by that is, like, everyday drinking, yes, I do have some of that. It's right here, and you can have this section over here. But this stuff over here, even though it says county, just don't touch it. K. This stuff, right, unless I open it. That's terrible. But I'm I'm such a lover, and I'm so I'm so nervous. Like, I don't want anybody opening up one of those special. Like, the fact that they're doing cruise right now, I worked for Foleyo for a minute, and so they we had Rickosley had come in, and Rickosley's crews are mind blowing. They're mind blowing, and they're so good. And so to this day, so that was twenty five. I am almost forty three. It still hasn't gone away. Like, I love it. So, but Italy in general is a just a rule of thumb. Like, you can get stuck in Italy. People people love France, and there are so many great, you know, like, This is. This is Burgundy, and this is this. And and and yes, there are nuances in in in things, but there's something about Italy to, like, where you can get in and you just get lost. And you're like, okay, I'm cool. I'm cool to be lost. That's fine. It's it all tastes great. I'm fine. So, yes. Kind of exactly what happened to me. I fell in I fell in love with Tuscon Sanjay, and that was it. Like, I just dove straight in and I've I've never surfaced. Right. Exactly. Like, you could totally get I mean, again, if that's my, like, That's my, deserted island sort of thing. When people are like, what are you gonna drink? I'm like, oh, it sends you a vase all day. Wait. When you want a white one, like, I yeah. I guess I drink more white than I do anything else, but like. But if I'm gonna be stuck somewhere, and that's the one thing I have to drink at Sanjay, I say. Oh, kindred spirits. Yeah. Awesome. Karen, thank you so much for joining me on the Italian wine podcast today. Yes. Thank you. It's been such an interesting conversation where can our listeners find you online or on social media? You can find me on Instagram and Facebook. I I'm, don't do a whole bunch of stuff. On social media posting wise just because I have kids. So, I leave it. I yeah. I I sort of leave it up to, Ronnie does a lot of the posting for for Lyft collective and for be the change. So I sort of let her like, run with it. But, yes, you can find me on both of those. Yeah. So for our listeners, check out live collective, check out be the change on Instagram, LinkedIn, their websites, all the social media. Thank you for listening. Don't forget to follow us on social media. Subscribe and, of course, donate on the website so we can keep these great conversations flowing. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Pod casts, Himalaya FM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time.