Ep. 661 Tanya Morning Star Darling | Voices

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Rebecca Lawrence, and this is voices. In this set of interviews, I will be focusing on issues of inclusion diversity, and allyship through intimate conversations with wine industry professionals from all over the globe. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating to Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps us cover equipment, production and publication costs, and remember to subscribe and rate our show wherever you tune in. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. This is a labor of love and we are committed to bringing you free content every day. Of course, this takes time and effort not to mention the cost of equipment, production, and editing, we would be grateful for your donations, suggestions, requests, and ideas. For more information on how to get in touch, go to Italian wine podcast dot com. Now back to the show. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This is the voices series with me Rebecca Lawrence. This week, I am thrilled to be talking to someone who is a huge inspiration for me. Educator and perhaps the only person I've actually met with more letters after her name than me. Tanya Morningstar Darling. Welcome to the podcast, Tanya. First of all, thank you so much for your kind introduction, doctor Lawrence. I wish I was a doctor. Maybe someday there's always time. Right? We can always start new projects. So today, I'm a a full time educator and a novice wine writer. I don't think you're so nervous. I don't think you need that. I think you're just wine writer. Wine writer, Tanya, morning star darling, educator, and wine writer. There you go. Much better. So I have to start by asking you first a little bit about what your currently working on so that you can introduce yourself to our listeners with what you're doing. Yes. So right now, actually, I'm desperately trying to carve out a little rest in August for me and my family. It's been a while. What a year. But in the meantime, while I'm kind of resting, I'm working on some writing for Guildsom about women in wine history, and another piece that relates to Italian wine, which will have to be a surprise. Yes. Gonna wait on that one. But I'm deep into research right now for a few ongoing teaching projects, and I'm excited to get back to the classroom for more Italian and French wine education this fall. But I think that I'm probably most excited to be in development for new online courses in collaboration with Napa Valley Wine Academy. I'm working on the next installment of my wine history series. And this time, it's gonna be American wine history, so a little closer to home. And I'm preparing to, go into production for that course in the fall when the kids get back to school. So really kind of chomping at the bit to do that, but my sanity needed me not to engage before before September. Yeah. You you need genuinely some time to just and your brain rest. You've been super busy in the last eighteen months. I have to say. So I wanted to kick off our conversation by asking which came first, your love of wine, or your passion for education? Well, I'd have to say actually probably love of wine. I fell in love with wine as a really young woman when I was studying in France. It was actually a surprise to me. I was really enamored at the age of eighteen with how I saw wine in France as really part of of people's cultural lives, which wasn't part of my culture in America, and I became really intrigued from that aspect first. But also about at the same time I really fell in love with being a student, which I think is where the spark for being a teacher comes from. So by the time I actually entered the wine industry in earnest, I'd actually already done some teaching and education administration in the arts. So when I started my own education journey in wine with WSet, I already knew that I wanted to teach. So I've been teaching now since two thousand four and full time since two thousand twelve. It's really cool. I came to it in in completely the opposite direction. I was I was teaching and found wine much later, and then suddenly had this light bulb moment of like, Oh, people teach about wine. Oh, that's cool. Follow our bliss. Absolutely. I I genuinely couldn't believe that that is something that people got to do. It was just such a wonderful moment. I I have to say I wake up every day and I say, What an amazing life this is to really do the things that I'm doing. It's such a wonderful joy and privilege to be teaching about wine. It's such a gift. And I love that, I mean, that really comes across in how you talk and present about wine that, you know, you're not doing this for a day job. You know, you're not just, like, ticking off the hours. You're so engaged and working with such interesting topics, and it it just shines through. Thank you. So speaking of your topics, common theme that comes up a lot in the wine education that you present through Salamuz is this connection between wine history and culture. Why is this something that's so important. And what do you hope your students gain from these connections that you're helping them make? I'm so glad that you asked this question because this is a really important subject for me. I think that for me, It's really important that my work is meaningful and intentional. So it's my belief that the study of history helps people to make intentional choices and bring meaningful things into the world. So I don't mean purely academically. Actually, I mean practically. So for example, if you study wine history of advertising through the ages, it can help people working in wine marketing to create more relevant campaigns, which resonate more deeply with consumers, but it can also help shift culture in positive and impactful ways to have really relevant marketing in the world. So that's just one really good example, but of course I could go on and on and on. But basically, when we look back at the past, we learn how to think about converging sets of circumstances and how they shaped history. So it can help us to see better in the moment this moment that we're in. And make better decisions about what we put into the world. And I think that being more tuned in and capable of make actually asking good questions can lead to increased profitability in our industry, but also on a larger scale think and more importantly, it helps us to recognize that we are in charge of history as it's being written and that we aren't victims. So we have some power and our actions have meaning. So you really asked the right question of me. I feel really strongly about this, and I think that if everybody studied history, we would have a much better world. I also think this is something that is like a gaping hole in traditional wine education. If I think back to my WSTT journey, yeah, it's great to learn the grapes, the denominations, the styles that are, but actually that doesn't give you the complete picture of a wine. It doesn't really tell you where the wine came from, how the wine came about. There's this huge gap that completely ignores the historical and cultural impacts on wine and wine production. Like you say, with things like wine marketing, And it's so nice to see people like yourself making sure that that education is available for people. Because I just think it's a, yeah, it's a huge gap, and I can't believe that it's still a huge gap in that traditional education tracks. Well, I'm trying to be upfront about filling that void. Believe me. But but I also I think that actually learning about wine history helps to dispel this kind of crazy notion that tradition in the old world a notion that Americans often I think feel about wine is that tradition is this fixed thing, this immovable thing, and that wine in Italy or wine in France has just always been the way it is and everybody over there in the old world is is so bound to it. And when you really start to engage with Italian wine, it's just not true. There's Maverick everywhere. There's tradition is, malleable. Tradition is something that's evolving. I think that's an important thing for all people to recognize, but Americans in particular when we're looking towards old world wines. It's yeah. I've been thinking about this lately. Yeah. I think that's a particularly important point for things like Italian wine that people have this preconceived notion about them and about where they come from, and yet it's been continually evolving actually for a very long time. And when you look when you do something like the vehicles, I I think they try and get it across that there have been lots of innovations, actually very, you know, relatively early in the history of wine in Italy. And because of those innovations that completely broke with tradition, suddenly you have a new approach to winemaking. And suddenly you have new wines coming and new grapes coming. And this is constantly happening. And when you talk about the history of Italian wine, and you look at things like the impact of the loss of the medsudrilla, you know, like you said, this constantly evolving story that's still happening now, you need to understand the stuff that came before to put it into context to see where it's come from, but also to see where it's going and that the possibilities are potentially endless. So it's so true. And really when you think about the contemporary Italian wine culture, just beginning in the late sixties early seventies with the restructuring of ownership of of land and miss Andrea being abolished. That's kind of I think surprising for a lot of wine lovers to think about. This new story didn't start that long ago. I I was alive. Yeah. It's it's recent history. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I actually, it's one of the things that I really loved about the Via program was so much focus on history. And the ability for me to be engaging with people who helped me to think, in new dynamic ways about, you know, about history was was really wonderful. I did wanna ask about how you chose Via because mean, we gotta talk about the titles. We gotta give you your props. Like, Italian wine, Scholar, DIP, French wine, Scholar, CWE, and now you're a certified Italian wine ambassador for Business International Academy. So just just casually adding a a few more letters. Why did you decide to go into Via having already done things like the Italian wine scholar? And also teaching I mean, you teach now the Italian wine scholar. So why via? Yeah. I think actually I was the first teacher to start, to teach the Italian wine scholar, actually, which was really cool. The first school to offer it. It's not just a few years ago, but I think Via is actually quite a bit harder and more challenging. It takes it from, I think, the, from one level to the next. I guess I'll just put it that way. But I'd actually like to step back a second and speaking about certifications, I wanna say for the benefit of aspiring wine people out there, especially for women and for people whom family values is really important. I wanna just share a little bit my story because I actually started my wine education journey in my twenties with w sent. But in my forty seeking new certifications, became a tool that I used as a way of reentering the wine world after being knocked off track a little bit in my thirties by unforeseen life events, caring for my aging grandparents, and having children. So this is these are things that happen to a lot of people. Right? And my point is that it's never too late to start and restart over again and challenge yourself and move forward. So it doesn't matter how old you are. Life is comes in waves. Right? So I just wanna really encourage people that it's never too late to start. Yeah. I couldn't agree with that more as as someone who I also I didn't start my formal wine inter any of my formal wine education until I was into my thirties. And it was a completely different, you know, I'd been in education, but I'd never participated in wine education. So it was a complete switch for me. And one of the people in my diploma class was a gentleman in his late fifties. And it was just we just all came with different perspectives, all of which are completely valid. And I loved that that was the case. Having people at different points in their lives with different experiences for me is something that makes being in the classroom so much more interesting than just the study material. So I completely agree with you and urge any of our listeners if you were thinking about doing it and fancied it but thought it was too late, it's never too late. Never too late. And actually, I'm glad you bring that up because I know that you work in architecture before and I was in the arts and I found in the arts that most of the people that I was working with and and socializing with, we had a lot of the same kinds of education and and experiences. Right? So we were, you know, talking in a room of of, you know, same kind of people with the similar kind of experiences, and that was is really one of the great choice of working in wine and studying wine for me is that you really meet people with such vastly different life experiences. I I think an age age differences. I have students that range from eighteen in Washington at the college where, in America, eighteen year olds are allowed to study wine in in Washington state because we're a agricultural state to eighty five. Right? And I have looked out into classrooms where there are four PhDs, you know, and It's just so it's so enriching for me as a teacher and as a student too. So it's fun part about why. So you did ask me about Via and how I came to Via. And actually, I fell into it a little bit. I had heard about it, but when COVID happened in my entire schedule, got wiped clean because I was, like, scheduled out for a couple years with no breaks. And so COVID, you know, took me on a whim, and I think it was really to be. And I think it was actually quite serendipitous because a good time in my career, I have definitely been working with Italian wines for a while, but good part of my life has been spent focusing on French wine and which is very fulfilling to me. But my aunt moved to Italy about a decade ago, maybe a little more now. And she opened an inn in Umbria. She's American, so she's an expatriate. I'm sure she's never coming back And so I've been visiting quite a bit over over that time and I really fell in love with Italy. My soul and my heart sings when I'm there, I feel relaxed. I feel accepted. I feel like I can really be myself. And so today, Obviously, I find myself following that feeling and working on more projects in Italy. For example, with my ambassadorship, my educational ambassadorship with the Orvieto Consacio and Orvieto wines, which is a position that I created. So I just proposed it kind of modeled after my work with bourgon wines and with the BIVB and I thought I can give this small kind of misunderstood wine region some of this really savvy marketing and through education without suspending as much as Borkone spends. And so, yeah, I was really inspired. And Orgeatoe is close to where my aunt lives. So I thought, well, I I'm in love with Orgeatoe wines. They're so misunderstood. People don't grasp how amazing these wines are for a lot of reasons, and I just became inspired to help them to get their message to the world. And I'm also working on some other projects. I'm interviewing Alessandra Mazzanghetti and have a writing project about his work as well. But as I mentioned, this program that I was doing via to my Italian partners, it was really clear to me that it had a lot of meaning in Italy. And so my brain started to say, this is maybe more interesting than I than I realized and it became really clear that becoming a Van Italian ambassador would be very complimentary to my work, my goals, to work more in Italy. Yeah. It does definitely open doors and is very well respected because of the rigor of the program. You know, when when you turn up with that pin, people know you genuinely know your stuff. You know, you don't just know the top, you know, twenty d o c d o c gs. Like, you're gonna know the soil profile of the tiny d o c inumbria that no one's heard of. Hey, guys. This is a brief intermission to give a shout out to our new sponsor, Federal Wine, the largest wine store in Italy since nineteen twenty. We are delighted to have them on board and thank them for their generous support and our new t shirts. Find out more on Italian wine podcast dot com. Now back to the show. And it's not a whim that you're just a good test taker that you passed. There's there's no getting around that actually. So, you know, there are a lot of certifications where that are meaningful in the marketplace, but that people do pass without actually having a whole lot of expertise. But I don't think that's possible. No. I I mean, you've done the program. I've done the program twice. It's truly not. Yeah. It's it was it's challenging. So you mentioned the obvious that, you know, COVID basically cleaned the slate of your schedule but you were very quick to adapt your classroom offering. And you're one of the people that was very visible in making your classroom experience available as an online offering. So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the challenges that wine education faced switching to this, some of the things that maybe you encountered and how you overcame them when you made this kind of quite dramatic, I think, shift. Certainly, I found it very difficult making that shift from in person to online. Well, I have to admit that in some ways I was actually ready for this to happen. I mean, not that I knew that it was gonna happen. But a few years back, I created an online wines of the world course as part of a grant in partnership with multiple higher learning institutions in Washington State. And as part of that grant, they actually sent me to school to learn about online learning and and pedagogy. So, I had already created some online learning modules and been engaged with that. And I will say that for me, the methodology of teaching is really important. And so Because online learning is so vastly different from classroom learning. When this happened, I just I kind of jumped right in to to that challenge, and seeking to understand what makes online learning work for people. So I really didn't just take my work and move it online at all. But also, to be totally honest, because I think it's useful for people to hear that my path isn't, you know, roses, always, you know, that every path is difficult even if I am looking good online, you know. I didn't have an option for failure. I'm a financially independent woman who supports my family with my blood, sweat, tears, and dreams. And and so there really was a sense of urgency to my success actually. And also I have two boys who I know are watching me navigate all this, and we've been asking them to be adaptable and graceful. And so it was really important for me to be, a role model of adaptability actually. So I was driven by many things to move quickly, money, you know, my kids and also my, you know, deep interest in in how people learn. And so in regards to learning structure, I'd say that it's been a process probably the biggest challenge has been improving my production capabilities because, you know, I'm a wine scholar and I was an actor, so that's good. But I'm I wasn't a video producer. So, aura graphic designer. So I've had to take on some collaborations actually was really beautiful to recognize that I couldn't do everything. So I took on a social media manager, partner, actually, usually working with students who I know pretty well and who know me. And it's a great way to to have kind of a shared fate, you know, through our education process. But most importantly, to me, actually, besides the challenge of production, was to adapt my my materials to account for the short attention span of students online because at home, most people are studying while constantly being interrupted by all kinds of things. And so, while even while I enjoy the live webinar format, and I, of course, use it all the time, I'm probably most interested in the challenge of creating asynchronous learning courses and transforming what would be, you know, three hour in person lessons into dynamic, short, units that include multimedia and smaller pieces of information that fit together, but that you can take one at a time so that you could take ten or fifteen minutes and actually accomplish a whole thought. Right? But all you had was ten or fifteen minutes. So really moving that long format into something, as I said, more dynamic. This allows people to interact with learning in the fringe of their lives, which is where online learning gets relegated by default, actually. So we can't forget that. We aren't just talking heads as educators online. We can't just take what we do in the classroom where we see and pour wine for people and move it onto a computer. So I really think a lot about that. And I'm actually really proud to report that the feedback that I've received from students about my wine history foundations course, which is the first fully asynchronous course that I published, has been so inspiring. I get letters from people. Somebody said they started a PhD program in antiquity studies after taking my course and it's just so moving. I I'm gonna cry just thinking about it. Some of these letters are are just are just beautiful. And so that's the biggest reward actually. And, so I'm excited to keep improving on this format and creating new asynchronous courses. That's so important that that recognition that you cannot just take your three hour, two hour session and just sit in front of Zoom and do it. And so many educators, and I, you know, myself included in the beginning was Well, we'll just put everything on Zoom. And it just really doesn't work. You know, I I taught my first class like that. So, no, you know, you're losing people. They're at home. They're distracted. There's other things going on. This has to be broken down. They have to have other tools to help them engage in this information, because it's not that they don't want to. It's just that it's suddenly so much harder. It's so important that people remember that and think about the the true switch that's happening. I hope people are gonna come back to the live classroom in droves. I'm kind of waiting to see how fall pans out, but but I don't think this is not going away for me. I think it's exciting and I think it's actually not gonna go away for anybody, the relevance of online learning. So I'm into it. Yeah. Me too. And and I'm working really hard to educate myself in it, and it's made me a better educator because it's taken me back to the role of the student and thinking about what my students need. Not how easily I can put a course together, but what do they actually need? And what do they need to get from this? And how can I give that to them in the most diverse and interesting way that's gonna hold their attention and be valuable for them? It's so true. It really actually helps to hone learning objectives. And you hit the nail on the head. I think it has made me a better educator in the classroom when I do have this long format to to play with having to say, okay, How do I say something meaningful in ten minutes in five minutes? In one minute, that's what my social media manager said. She said get in front of the camera while I'm on vacation. You need to get in front of the camera. I was like, oh, okay. What am I gonna do? She's like, you have one minute. That's the amount of time Instagram gives you. And I was like, what? What am I gonna do in one minute? That's meaningful. And she was like, figure it out. So I did. And actually, this I've always really admired the three minute wine class by Genesis Robinson. I became kind of obsessed with it for a while. And that's been around for a really long time. She had that idea a long time ago. How did this still sound? You can't say everything. You never can. You can't in three hours. Right? So if you're trying to say everything, you're gonna bore people. You have to be specific about what you're gonna say, whether it's one minute, whether it's three hours. So, yeah, it definitely I think thinking about this and not taking the process for granted makes us better in the classroom too. There's a really great I don't know if you have any experience of improvised comedy, but there's a really great exercise that it's an improv game where basically you set a scene in in four minutes and then you have to do the scene again in two minutes. And then in one minute, then thirty seconds, then fifteen seconds, then seven seconds. And I often think about this when I come to doing that kind of teaching. It's like, how do you distill distill distill? Like, what's the true nugget of information that the student needs? Okay. Well, you haven't got, you know, four hours. You've got a two hour session. Okay. So what are the key takeaways? And then maybe in that two hour session, for WSTT, an hour of that's gotta be tasting. Okay. And I've got some time in the tasting to talk about and do the recap, but I need to set the stage first. So now I've got an hour. And, you know, I'm gonna lose ten minutes of that just getting students in their seats set up and understanding what we're doing. So then you've got fifty minutes. And then you're gonna lose ten minutes of that to student questions, which is great, but you've still gotta get the same amount of information to them in forty minutes. And that's really how I approach, yeah, it's an improvised committee. I love that. Yeah. I haven't done that exactly, but I've done similar things, so, you know, laughing inside, but it's totally like that. Yeah. Yeah. I really think that actually my work as a performer is well integrated into my work as a as a wine teacher actually. Yeah. My my husband says that about me. I I have no performance training, and I think I'd be terrible. But he says it's really interesting. He came to a tasting probably maybe two years after I'd started doing tastings and events. He waited a while. And he said it was so fascinating being in the audience, like, being participating in the class. He's like, you're just a completely different person. And I was like, well, it's an act. Like, it's a performance. You know, when I'm teaching it's a performance, I have to be this particular person who can get stuff done. And then, you know, I go away and hide at home because I'm a completely ignorant. He's like, it was just so weird. And then, you know, at home, you just turn off the switch and you're done. And it's not quite like that, but it it is a performance in many ways, and, you know, you are performing the the world of wine to your students. So before I get us too off track with your four misters and comedy, I'm sorry. Speaking of adapting education, There has been a lot of discussion going on obviously in the past eighteen months about wine education, inclusion, and you've been involved in a lot of this, particularly with Lyft Collection. You one of their keynote speakers for their twenty twenty one virtual conference. So I wondered if you had any thoughts about things you'd like to change in wine education, there's obviously things you're already actively changing. And things that you've seen that you're particularly pleased to see having adapted or changed. Well, actually, I think as a woman of both European and Native American Heritage, I have a particular point of view about wine and personal success in the world and I recognize at a certain point that that could be useful to others but I also recognize that I have a huge amount of privilege which I feel is my responsibility to leverage to make our industry and our world a better place. Whether, you know, at a certain point, I recognize that that was almost not a choice, but something I needed to do. I was taught by my grandparents and my parents and my auntie that essentially if I was standing that it was my responsibility to give other people a hand up. And and as I mentioned, I I kind of realized that it was my turn to do that. And so I try to listen respectfully to people's stories and find ways to influence our culture in positive ways through mentorship. Teaching history without a pretty filter is an important thing that I'm doing and I've also started an equity and diversity scholarship actually started that scholarship kind of before we saw all the scholarships coming on to line. I started it by just funding one myself because I couldn't wait for a partner. And now I've funded six full scholarships since in the last year, year and a half. Not personally, but I found partners to to fund those scholarships. I really believe in my heart that education is powerful and so I try to be a brave teacher. And I haven't been chased out with pitchforks yet, so I guess I'm doing okay. But more recently, I have joined the board of the Alliance of Women in Washington Wine, and Washington wines are not definitely not my focus, but Washington industry is is my life, you know, as a teacher here. And so I I'm embarking on a series of what can I do to actually help people, women particularly in this case, get ahead? You know, we have a world that says that there are no longer any barriers to everybody's success, you know, from a legal standpoint. But the reality is that when you're there, we experience that there are systemic barriers that that it's easy for certain people to ignore, but if you're on the other side of it, you can't ignore it. So I'm gonna be teaching some workshops this year on subjects like how to present your resume after staying home with your kids. Right? How to talk about pregnancy in the workplace, like when you get pregnant, what do you do? How to talk about money. This is a really, really big thing, especially for women because I think we've been taught not to talk about money. And the reality is it reminds me of this Eddie Murphy skip on Saturday night live where he goes places and dress like a a white person and he gets on the bus and the shades pull down and the champagne comes out, you know, when there's no more black people on the bus. I feel as a woman that that's actually if you can get in that room where there's no women and see how men act, about negotiating salaries and jobs. And I wanna take a cue from that playbook. So I have been talking to men and trying to figure out how they talk about money. And I wanna share that with, with women too. So I think talking about money is is important. But that's just an example of some of the things that, I'm branching out into this year as workshops that are practical and help people with tools to be more successful and make more money in our industry no matter who you are. I think those those practical tools are so vital because you aren't just necessarily taught them. You're just expected to know them. Or like you say, with things like money, not expected to wanna talk about it. And I remember an experience of mine where I, you know, was going into pitch for something and, you know, pitched what my worth was. And they're like, oh, that's a bit arrogant. And I was like, you would never say that if a man will and he would probably ask for more money than I am anyway. That kind of approach just infuriates me that, you know, people should be able to present their value no matter who they are. You know, it doesn't matter if you're male or female or whatever. You know, it's being able to have those practical skills is gonna be so important, I think, for the next set of changes that are happening in the industry. Because like you say, everyone says, there's no barriers. It's it's all open, but it's not. And these invisible barriers are put there. And we need to teach people to recognize them and just step over them. Like, just take a step over. You can do it. Yeah. The barriers are within ourselves because we've been living in a society that embeds those barriers for certain people for millennia, right, in different ways. So, you know, we've internalized these barriers that we shouldn't be talking about money or that we should be worried about being too bossy or that there's not enough seats at the table. So we need to push somebody another woman out of the way or, you know, all of those things are myths. It's not true. We can create more prosperity and more seats at the table if we want to. Absolutely. So the obvious question you have achieved so much through a lot of hard work most recently via. So what's next? Are you gonna come back and try for expert? Are you setting your sights on MW? You gotta just focus on your new classes. What's next for you in terms of your wine education? Well, as I mentioned in my twenty actually, in my twenties, I thought that I'd BMW by the time I was forty, but life didn't have that in store for me. And But over the last few years, I've done a lot of kind of systematic thinking about that program and whether I should engage in it and even engage with a peer mentor, about the subject. And it's funny when when you you think about these things and you think I want them or I need them and then you think why. And when you earnestly investigate things without prejudice of the outcomes, sometimes we're surprised. And so my surprising thing was actually that isn't what I want right now anyway because I'm enjoying specialization so much. And it's hard for me to imagine going back into a program that would require me to study the whole world of wine, actually. And so I have thought about via expert. I was surprised at how hard the course was. And since now it's clear to me what would be required, which is a considerable amount of focus to achieve that. I'm not sure twenty twenty one will permit it because we're just getting back to life and I've gotta get to work or keep tenure working. But and I don't want to attempt it unless I can give it the time that it would require. So that's the great thing about setting an exam once is then you understand what it is. So that being said, that doesn't mean you won't see me in the express sometimes soon. I tend to have trouble stepping down from a challenge, but I think probably not twenty twenty one. But relax. Definitely not. I'm gonna work like a dervish and, mostly I think creating these programs that I've been talking about writing and teaching and and expanding on on mentorship. So and really most importantly focusing on bringing being open to the wonderful places that following my joy in my work are gonna take me because actually being open is what brings the right things at the right time, I think. Well, I'm incredibly excited to see what's next from you. As I said, you are a huge role model to me. You make me a better educator. I've learned so many things, and I love that recently, and I'm I'm gonna call this out because I love that you put a real up recently on Instagram saying that, your son had said that you are a rock star And I have to say he nailed it because that is exactly how I think of you in the wine world. And I'm so honored to have had this conversation with you today on the Italian wine cast up. We're gonna continue this conversation, and one day it'll be over a bottle of wine. So tell our listeners where they can find you if they haven't already online on social media, in person, Yes. I am online. I'm on social media. My website is w w w dot sellermuse dot com, and I've got a new website that's gonna drop in August. So forgive that is a little cumbersome right now. Online, in social media, I'm seller muse. So you can find me on Facebook and Instagram on seller muse. I don't tweet. I love the definitive nature with which you said that. I I once had a bookmark that says, don't tweet, read. And I stand by it. I call it twinning. Tanya, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Rebecca. Talk to you soon. Thank you everyone for listening. Don't forget to follow us on social media subscribe, and of course donate on the website to make sure we can keep these great conversations flowing. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, spotify, HimalIFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italianline podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time.