Ep. 891 Lamar Covert | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally international wine and spirits exhibition. The fifty fourth edition of Vinitally was held from ten to the thirteenth of April. If you missed it, don't worry. Go to Vineethly plus dot com for on demand recordings of all the sessions from the exhibition. And remember to save the date, the next edition of Vineethly will be held from the second to the fifth of April two thousand and twenty three. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I will be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I'm delighted to welcome Lamar covert. Lamar is from Philadelphia. So we're both midwesterners, which is kind of a fun connection. I'm sitting here in Verona, and he's in Pennsylvania, but it just shows how small the world really is. He's the CEO at Cyl Hospitality group handling a lot of accounts and catering and events management, getting things going for people who are coming into the business. He's a certified sommelier and a partner at Black Oak wine club, which just opened up new premises in Philly in the autumn of twenty twenty one. So thanks for making the time today, Lamar. I totally forgot it was president's day, so I got you out of bed early. My bad. I'm sorry. No. Thank you. Thank you for that, but I really appreciate it. You know, it it it doesn't bother me to wake up early when it's something that you love and, you know, something you love to talk about. So, yes, I'm, I'm excited. Exactly. Oh, well, I'm glad. Thank you very much. So I am I am fascinated by sort of what you're into these days, but I really wanna know how you got to where you are. How did you get into wine? Like, I did not find wine at all until I went to college, and then it kinda found me. What was your road into the sector? How did you how did you come into the wine biz? So how did I get into the wine industry? So with, you know, me working in the nightlife and the hospitality space, in my demographic. There was a lot of spirits. There was a lot of, you know, sweet liquors and things like that. So as I got older, I began to dive into it probably around, like, early twenties, honestly. Just curious. Just curious about it. And my my life pretty much changed one night. I was on a date, and there was a guy, an African African American guy. And he was you know, well manicured. He was, you know, he was on a date as well, and he was actually on a date with two women. Oh, wow. Good for him. Yeah. So in my early twenties, you know, seeing that I said, wow. You know, like, how how can I do this one day? Right? But aspirations. We all have aspirations. Aspirations. Right. So the only wine at that time that I was drinking was a Solvion Blanc and, you know, mass produced Solvion Blanc, you know, Cabot barefoot, yellowtail. And he had a glass of red wine. And I asked the waiter what type of wine he was drinking, and he told me it was a glass of merlot. So I ordered that glass of merlot, you know, just just trying to seem as if, you know, I knew what I was doing because I was on a date as well. And I got that last summer low and my life changed. I never drank red wine until I went to school. So, you know, throughout my early twenties all the way up until, you know, now, you know, mid thirties, I've been drinking red wine for a long time. And I just went down a rock, you know, like a wormhole of of research at that point. I would go to the the local, you know, liquor shop and I would, you know, buy Merlo. And one of the sales representatives, one day, said, listen, if you if you like Merlo, then you would like something like this. And they, suggested Cabernet sauvignon. And I began drinking Cabernet sauvignon, and I stopped drinking Marlow. So I just went down a wormhole of drinking Cabernet sauvignon at that point. And, what really did it was I was in New York on time at a small wine shop, and I was with a group of people, most of them were women at the time. So I was showing off a little bit. Right? So I I asked the guy, you know, asking for a wine suggestion. He asked me my price, and I said, well, fifty dollars. You know, I never spent fifty dollars on the bottle of wine ever. So I, you know, I was just, like, showing off, making it seem like I knew what I was doing because was so curious about wine at this point. I figured if I spend fifty dollars, I would get a better bottle of wine. So he asked me what I drink, and I told him, you know, I I drink I drink big, you know, full bodied wines like Merlo and Cabernet. So he said, listen, try this, and he gave me a bottle of Bordeaux. Oh my goodness. And blew your mind. Blue my mind. Right? There was it it it was a whole new world. It was a whole new world. It literally was like going to another country and never seen, you know, any of the you know, the the scenery, you know, he gave me this bottle of Bordeaux. I think it was a Chateau Lara V, O'Briane. And on the ride back home, I literally was glued to Google about Bordeaux. And I just went, you know, I went on a journey. I went on a trip. So I'm I'm guessing you didn't get a lot of dates after that if you're googling buying on the way home. Right. All I could all I could think about was why at that point. So, yeah, this was probably around two thousand and eight, or let's say two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, probably. So I just went down to wormhole to research and every article, I could find every YouTube video, every book, I, you know, I would just buy everything and also the wine itself, and and we know how expensive that can get. So I just bought a lot, and I would just sit in a house and read, and I would sit in school and, you know, be at work, just reading, and googling, tasting wine and trying to understand, you know, all of these tasting notes and aromas and things like that, you know, which I didn't grasp until I went to school, but I would like to say, you know, that that time that I did that research on my own, they kinda prepped me for when I went to school. And, you know, I felt comfortable being in school at that time because, you know, I I did, you know, five, six years of research before I even, you know, took a class, and that led me to take in online classes. I took some free online classes as well. You know, just out of curiosity. And, yes, I've been on this journey ever since ever since. It's it's amazing how addictive it is, isn't it? It's, yeah, once you start once you start dipping your toe in, you you can't come back out again. All of a sudden, you're you're in, and that's it. Oh, I I love that. So you you did a load of prep work on your own, and then you decided to become a sommelier. Where did you do that? I went to the wine school of Philadelphia. Instructor, Keith Wallace. He is like, you know, a renowned Psalm, a wine consultant. He's also a wine maker. He, he created the curriculum for the National Wine School, NWS. Which is, you know, basically an accreditation agency just like, you know, CMS and WSTT, but he also started his own wine school in Philadelphia. And, through visiting wineries in Pennsylvania with my sister, Ebony, we had made a a relationship with some winemakers and, you know, we would go so much and, you know, we would taste wine so much, and I would have conversations with these winemakers. And, you know, one day he said, listen, man, every time you come here, we have these in-depth conversations you know, like, you know, what do you do? Like, are you in the industry? And I'm like, no, you know, I I only do catering and I do events and things like that. Like, I'm actually not in the wine business. He said, well, how do you know so much about wine? I said, listen, man, I'm just, enthusiastic about this, and I have a deep thirst for knowledge about wine. This was not something that I grew up with. And, you know, I'm just truly interested in it. He said, well, listen. And he was very blunt and, you know, this guy, you know, he he he was a Caucasian. He's Caucasian. He said, listen, for people to respect you in the industry, you should go get your your sound certification He said, I'm gonna be honest with you. It may be off putting to some people who do not look like you when you begin to talk about wine. He said, so I would never want anybody to, you know, belittle you or undermine what you're saying. So you should go get the paperwork to back up what you're saying. And Which is which is harsh, but, probably really good advice, actually. Yes. And because it because it was good advice, I didn't take it you know, harshly. I didn't take it a a long way because I'd already, I had already developed a relationship with this guy. Like, we were really cool at this point. So, you know, I took it positive. I took it as if he, you know, didn't want me to he wanted me to prosper, you know, in the industry, and he didn't want me he didn't want me to be taking advantage of, or he didn't want people to to view me a certain way. Because, you know, we know the wine industry. It can be very, you know, elitist at times. So, yeah. Often. Often. For sure. Yeah. And and the the sad part about all this is that, you know, you were talking to, you know, what was it? Two thousand eight, two thousand and ten? This wasn't, like, sixty five years ago. It was it was just recently. So, but it's, I think also, you know, as you said, it's not just wine the wine industry isn't just, you know, fairly not diverse, but it is one of those elitist things where you do have to have the credits and you have to have the paperwork and and things to show that you know what you're talking about. And I think you know, if you're coming in, you know, as a as a black person or a person of color, or someone else, I think he gave you really good advice. It shouldn't be that way, but, you know, it still is, which is a big problem. Yeah. But, you know, it's par for the course. So, I'm here. So you so you did it. So you did it? I did it. Yes. I did it. I am, you know, certified Psalm. I'm in my, I'm in progress of becoming an advanced Psalm probably by the fall of this year. So I would be like, in advance by then. So, yes, I'm I'm still in school. Are you doing it with the Court of Master Sommelier in the States? So I'm taking my advance with the same school right now. And they also have they have a master program, but their master program is more so focused on business. So it's, you know, if you want to start a wine business, I'm not sure if I'm gonna go the CMS route the level of knowledge that I have obtained from, you know, NWS and the wine school of Philadelphia, I view it as being on par with, you know, other accreditation agencies. I know a lot. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I know a lot of people who are, you know, who who who sat at CMS and they also did WSTT. And we have these these back and forth, you know, these conversations, and it just reassures me that, okay, you actually know what you're talking about. You actually got the the proper, you know, knowledge on par with, with the other, accreditation agencies. So, yes, I don't know. I I always thought about going faster, but, it's just not in the car for me right now. You know? Yeah. It's an interesting time for them too with, you know, they've had the big scandal with the misogyny that was going on. So, it's pretty clear that they're not the most welcoming place, to start with. And, you know, it sounds like Keith has done you right. So that's that's and it's it's great how how different areas of wine study can really provide you with similar, if not exactly the same information, and it really comes down to your ability and willingness put in the time and study it. It sounds like you did that in space. Exactly. Exactly. And I that's how I always viewed it. You know, do do I wanna go to CMS? And again, I I'm not speaking down on, you know, CMS at all, but if I can sit down and I have this thirst for knowledge that I have and I just wanna do this research on my own, you know, every book that has been rec you know, recommended in the wine industry, I have that book in my house. So If I wanna just obtain this knowledge for myself and for me to be able to move forward and start a wine business or, you know, just, you know, wine businesses in the, in the future, I can do that on my own, you know. So I kinda just like weighing my options at this point, do I want to go that far. And and we'll see. We'll see. But I'm a finish up Advanced first, and then we'll see what happens after that. Well, you've got some pretty cool options. And I'm really excited about your new venture, which is Black Oak, I'm dying to hear how this is going. I know it started up sort of over a year ago offering, you know, classes and things online, industry updates, and listing black owned wine brands. And you're hosting a podcast, the wine and cheese girls podcast. I love the and events and and vacation getaways and stuff. I love the premise behind it that wine brings people together and starts conversations because I obviously could talk about wine forever. It sounds like you could too. But your sister said a really cool thing, Ebony said the biggest thing for me is being able to educate people who look like me and make them feel comfortable walking into and being in rooms that may have been intimidating before. I'm a wine educator too. And so it's this is important to me to talk about how how to diversify our industry and how to educate people, how to make it more welcoming, how to open doors for people who've felt excluded, So what are your goals for Black Oak? I'm excited about this. Black Oak Black Oak. So, these wineries that we were visiting, right, when I met, my friend Brian, he gave me this information, we were actually in the process of getting a wine produced by this winery. And throughout these conversations of getting this wine produced, Ebony just called me one day and said, hey, you know, we're we're we're finding out about a lot of these black owned wine brands, you know, and, you know, we are of the the support black movement, the buy black movement. So she said, listen, you know, we should start this wine club And literally, it was like a five minute call. She called me really fast. Like, Evelyn, she's like a doer. She's a go getter. So, you know, I was probably in the midst of doing something. She called me, and I'm just like, yes, yes. Okay. Alright. You know, let's do it. Let's do it. Know, just getting back to whatever I was doing and literally maybe forty eight hours. There was an LLC. There was a website being produced. So it just kinda took, you know, me and my other partners bought Storm when, when this happened. So, you know, the, the the purpose of it is to expose, black on wine brands, black on winemakers, you know, black on, I mean, you know, people in the industry, you know, black people in the industry, but then also educating our community about wine. So one thing that we we began doing was, we were doing in home tastings and we were doing, online online tastings, especially because this started in the pandemic. So, you know, we had to start whichever way we could at the time. And, you know, one thing we realized is that a lot of you know, people from our communities. And, you know, when I say that, I'm talking about black people, we don't come up with wine. We don't grow up. We don't grow up with wine. You know, a lot of us, we grew up with spirits in our households and probably the most thing we had, the the thing that we had that was closer to wine was like, Manna Shevets, Oh my god. Exactly. You know, so we don't, we don't have a lot of wine knowledge. You know, a lot of our families did not own own land. You know, they weren't venters. And also in our communities, they don't market wine, you know, they market spirits, they market, you know, sweet liqueurs. So wine was kind of, you know, something that we weren't privy to. And, you know, what I realized is that when somebody tastes this wine, when they taste wine, they get turned off and they believe that that's what all wine tastes like. You know, if you've been drinking, you know, cognac or whiskey or vodka, once you take a glass of wine, you're like, oh, I don't like wine. Yeah. You have to recalibrate your whole palette. Exactly. It's like fourteen hundred varietals in the world. Like, every wine does not taste the same. So, you know, we felt like one of those barriers to entry was education, you know, educating people about wine, how to taste it, how to smell it, what it looks like, you know, what the mouthfeel is, you know, all of those things. And, hopefully, that will allow people to, or that will encourage people to buy more wine because if we're trying to get people to buy wine and especially with black gold, get them to buy black owned wine, you have to be educated before you would even take that step to even search out a black owned wine brand. Or, you know, search our wine itself. Most people go to the local liquor store and they buy the thing that they always buy, you know, what they're used to, what somebody else, told them about. So, you know, it's a, it's a, it's, is a lot of levels to a lot of walls to knock down when it comes to wine education in terms of, you know, the African American community. Yeah. No. And it's it really points out. I mean, wine education really does open up horizons that often people just never saw themselves on. And I I educate young people, generally students doing their their semester or their year abroad, and I I teach Italian wine. And most of them, you know, they've if they've had wine at all, it was Franja with something else, and it is it is fun to see as you say those walls come down, but particularly, you know, for for the the black population, people of color who, as you said, you know, this isn't part of your culture growing up. It's not, something that you really know anything about to have the curtain whipped back and and be able to take part and and belong and learn and enjoy. That's I mean, you're providing something that's really amazing. And, well, and I love the fact that you've, you know, you've got the whole interest of of black owned wineries at heart too, not just your black consumers, but you know, black wine makers as well. I was reading about Black Oak because I got really excited about it, creating a community that strives to help the industry respect the buying power of black consumers and the expertise of black wine professionals. I mean, this is really crucial stuff if we're ever gonna get the wine sector to be more inclusive. You know, at the moment, only roughly one in every one thousand winemakers in the US is black. And of the eleven thousand wineries in the US, less than one percent of them are black owned. I mean, that's just horrific statistics. But the the thing that's interesting for me is that the first recognized black winemaker was a man called John June Lewis, in the nineteen forties in Virginia. You know, what happened? Because clearly, he he was not leading the charge or or somebody made him stop or, what happened? Why do we have so few black wine makers and and black owned wineries? So, you know, in in my knowledge, you know, or what I've, you know, what I've researched or what I've talked about, you know, there was a lot of, you know, discriminatory practices to Black Farmers, you know, when you think about the the disadvantages of events like the homestead act of eighteen sixty two, you know, where, you know, there's no redistribution of land, nor were there any reparations to act of slavery, you know, this various discriminatory acts against black farmers and forms of, like, federal policies, financial lending, and, you know, just blatant, just, like, violent theft, their land. You know, we, you know, we were set back. We were set back. And I think that plays a role when we start talking about land. And then, you know, even now with, winemakers who own wineries who may not own land, you know, getting distribution, you know, for small, small wineries, you know, that's very hard, you know, sales representatives, the loans that you may need to take out to even open a winery let alone purchasing your grapes, getting your equipment, you know, getting your, you know, your your workers, employees. A lot of it, I believe, you know, stems back to being set back so so long ago, you know, with the, what's the level of racism that, you know, black farmers have had to endure. You know, land is, you know, one of the the main sources of generational wealth within families. So, you know, it's it's it's hard for these winemakers to, get visibility outside of their local territories, you know, like I said, you know, with distribution. So I think, you know, that's why we are now just getting to the point where you begin to see these black owned wine brands. And again, a lot of the black owned wine brands don't own the land. They're just wine makers. Yeah. That's so true. That that is really true. Not only in the US, but other places too, South Africa, things that people, yeah, a lot of black people coming into the wine industry right now don't own the land. That's that is a very good point. It's, it's gonna take a while, you know, but I feel like, you know, we're getting there. We're on track especially now, you know, within this last year, you know, with, Of course, you know, unfortunately, with George Floyd, which pretty much sparked the, you know, the by black movement, a lot of the black line makers now, they have gained national distribution, you know, because of that, because everybody is, you know, speaking about them on social media, you know, some of these black owned winemakers, they're getting, you know, you know, national press. So I think this last year pretty much, you know, it it it it kinda made it evident that you know, we have a power, you know, you know, black people. We, you know, there's a power in our voices, but, that power in our voices has, you know, push these black owned wine brands, you know, to the forefront. And hopefully, you know, it's not a, hopefully, it's not just trend. You know, hopefully people stick by it and they continue to support. I know that certain wines, you know, certain certain black owned winemakers, they can't make certain wines because of, you know, where they're at. You know, or the access to certain grapes. But, as time goes on, I'm sure we'll, you know, they'll figure it out, you know, we'll figure it out as time goes on. But, you know, I just hope it's not a trend. I hope people just continue. Yes. Yeah. Me too. Me too. And I think you make an interesting point too, particularly about loans, you know, being able to get, you know, substantial loans for getting these businesses really, really up and running. I think that's something that the US government really has to take a good look at to make sure that there's fair lending policies going on for black owned businesses, black owned wineries because capital has to come from somewhere. Well, you're doing your part with Black Oak. I I'm wondering what, CIL is doing. You know, are you are you partnering with black owned wineries for your events, for your catering things? Because that's kind of you're you're wearing two hats. You've got black oak, and you've got Cyl. What are you doing with them? Yes. Yes. So Cyl has always been my baby I've always wanted to be in the hospitality industry. I've always had goals of opening a restaurant, and I have a lofty goal of operating a hotel at some point. So That has always Talk about needing some loans. Wow. Yes. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But that has always been a goal of mine. You know, that one thing that you have always thought about in life that always was in the back of your mind that was it, you know, hospitality, was it, I love hospitality. I love to accommodate people and make people feel good, which is probably why I was in the nightlife industry at that time, you know, being able to provide people an experience, provide them a good time. So right now with cyl, we pretty much took the approach of catering to just begin to put ourselves out there and allow people to, you know, experience you know, what we do. So we're actually going to launch this summer, some, some wine, you know, some wine pairing dinners. And I definitely will be reaching out to some black owned wine brands. But again, just having wine period, I think is great with, with these pairings because people begin to see different types of wine. Right? Like, there's no black online brand that makes a, you know, Chassanae Montreche. So, you know, I I still want people to be able to, be educated on, you know, Italian wines and French wines and you know, other wines, but, I definitely that's that's definitely a part of, the program that we will be putting together. So, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully one day we'll be having another conversation. And, you know, I'll I'll have a hotel that I can invite you to. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, And I I love the whole concept of food and wine pairing, and I think it is another way to break down some of those walls. You know, if you grow up eating food that isn't sort of traditionally paired with wine, it's a lot of fun to teach people how to pair wine with spicy food or you know, vegetarian food or different things. I'm I love doing cross cultural wine pairings where you've got a French wine with, you know, an Asian dish, things like that. And it does it gets people talking. It gets people excited, and it does break down a lot of barriers. So food and wine really do have a a power that, not a lot of other things do at the moment. So it's I can see why you love it. So before we go, I wanna have a little bit of fun with this, chat. I hear you've had a foray into acting in the film Money Loves. How did that come about? Would would you go down the acting rate? You know what? That that's something that I've thought about before. And, I'm, I'm fairly close to some people who are in the industry. So I've been on some movie sets before, and I, I'll see how how it works. Yeah. I think me is just a challenge. It's like taking on a new challenge and and and be able, you know, to, you know, to come out on top of that challenge. I would love to do it And that's another thing that happened, Ebony, you know, Ebony just being a go getter, like, calling me, like, hey, I need an extra in the film. I need you to be, you know, at, you know, at, you know, I need you to be here. I'm like, oh my goodness, man. Like, you you have no idea what I'm doing today. You just, you just called me, you know, to to to fill in a spot. So when I got there, I'm thinking that I'm gonna be an extra And she's like, listen, I need you to get behind the bar. I need you to be a Psalm. I need you to basically teach a class and, you know, we're gonna get you, you know, we're gonna film you teaching a class. I'm like, are you serious? Are you serious? So I'm a big sister. I know what sisters are like. Yeah. So I I basically had to, you know, walk in the building and just turn the light switch on and do what it is that we do, you know, every week. And, I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, and I actually got it right when it first taped. Oh, fantastic. Amazing. Yes. Yes. You know, so I I walked away from there, you know, feeling very accomplished. So, yeah, I would I would definitely I would definitely, go down that road if I got the opportunity, or if I just had the time to focus on it, you know, right now, you know, with wine, and, you know, you hear me. I'm trying to I'm trying to open the hotel. Like, I don't know if I have time for, for acting gig right there. Well, you just never know. You never know. And and now you've basically become, like, the cool, good looking guy in the restaurant when you were on your date drinking your, you're so vignon. Yeah. You've become that guy. So it's really that's a great opportunity to really, you know, as you said, use your voice, be a role model, show people, you know, that that it's possible. That could be them too. You never know. You might be inspiring some other poor guy who wants to go out with two women. Exactly. Exactly. I I wanna know. I've been talking about the wine and food thing, you know, also. I know you're Pescatarian. So, you know, when nobody's watching you and and you're not, you know, needing to put on a show for anybody, what are you drinking? What are your top wines to play around with for pairing with fish? Oh, man. My top line. So, of course, you know, I went down a a a bored dough wormhole, but I cannot pair that with fish. So what I've got into lately are Oregon pinot noirs. I eat a lot of salmon, and I eat a lot of, like, you know, dense fish, like halibut. So I do a Oregon pinot noir. You know, it's it's it's light enough. It's fruity enough, but then it still has some structure to it. And, you know, the the fish won't overpower it. And I love Shiblee. And I and and like I just mentioned before, like, Shasanae, like, I love Shasanae Montreshae. Oh, one of my favorites. Yes. Yes. I, I have a friend who's an importer, and he had a launch event, and he literally he sold me a few of his bottles, but he sold them to me at, like, retail, like, like, like, wholesale price. Oh, good friend to have. Yes. Exactly. So I I I purchased maybe, like, four of them, and I only spent, like, I wanna say one hundred and eighty five dollars. Wow. Bargain. Yes. So, you know, I I fell in love the day that I tasted that. So, yeah, those are my two whites that I'll probably go with in terms of, you know, my diet chablis a little more because you know chablis is a little more affordable than purchasing a chalcinea. So, you know, whenever I can get my hands on one, I I I definitely will, but I I keep I keep chablis and I keep, peeling the water around the house. Yes. House wines. It's important. Well, my my famous final question before I let you go back to your, day off is what's your favorite Italian wine? Favorite Italian wine. So I have a couple favorites. Some of them are, like, tried and true, but some of them I'm, like, experimenting with. So, Bernillo, you you can't go wrong with Bernillo. No. You cannot. The first time I had a brunello, it was like a two thousand and I wanna say ten. So my first experience with a brunello was amazing. And it's, you know, it's up there with some of those bigger wines, but it's not as it's not as harsh. You know, you should it's still kind of fruity. So I love Bruno. I just got into Sacramento. Oh, wow. That's a big one. Yeah. Yeah. My, my, my, my, my, my winemaker friend, he, he had put me on to Sacramento. I love it. I'm still experimenting with it. But, I've probably had it about I wanna say three times now, and I enjoyed all of them. So it's just something that I'm playing around with right now, you know, wrapping my head around, everyday drinking, barbera, hands down. Good choice. Yes. You know, just juicy, easy drinking, pop it open, I love Barbara. And the new Italian wine that I'm trying out now is, is a is a Tarasi, you know, Alianca. Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. Compania. Yes. Yes. I, I purchased one a couple, maybe about a year ago, two thousand and eight. And I didn't open it, but from that time, I've had some that were around, like, sixteen, seventeen, and I loved them. So now I'm, like, curious of what this two thousand and eight is what it tastes like. After I had these sixteens and seventeens, it's still sitting in my basement right now. So, Well, Alianneco age as well. So you're gonna you're gonna have a good surprise when you open that one. Yes. Yes. And I need a I need a group of people because it's a it's a one point five liter. I need I need some people around who really drink wine to experience with me. So that'll be a that'll be a good time. So, yeah, those are my those are my four Italians that I I pretty much fell in love with, and that I'm experimenting with right now. Well, if you're an Oregon Pino noir guy, I've gotta point you towards Mount Aetna Narello Maschalasi, from Sicily. Yes. Okay. You gotta get your hands on some of that and see what you think. Yes. I had one in school, but, you know, it was only like a two ounce port. So I couldn't really, you know, I couldn't really experience it. Traditing. Exactly. Exactly. So I I I have to I have to dive into that. Thank you for that recommendation. Well, this has been such a great conversation, Lamar. I really appreciate you taking your time out and getting up early to chat with me. Thank you so much. And I wish you all the best, both for Cyl, but really for Black Oak as well. Anything that that has education at its heart is something that I really love. So, I've got a lot of a lot of, good thoughts going your way for Black Oak. Oh, thank you as well. I appreciate the opportunity It's kind of overwhelming because I'm like the, I'm like the new kid on the block. You know, I I I went through a lot of the episodes that you guys have, and a lot of these people, they're like twenty year industry veterans. And I'm like, wow. Okay. How did I how did I get this opportunity? So because I hunt I hunt everybody down. I love talking to everyone. So, yeah, it's it's it's important for me to talk to people who are new to the business because you've got a different perspective, and that's really crucial. Yes. Yes. I'm very humble about the opportunity. I I, again, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Well, it was my pleasure. You have a great day. Alright. You too. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Italian wine podcast. Brought to you by Vineethly International Wine and Spirits exhibition, the biggest drinks trade fair in the world. Save the date. The next edition of Vineethly will be held the second through the fifth of April two thousand and twenty three. Remember to subscribe to Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundCloud, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find us at Italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. I'm Joy Livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. 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