Ep. 951 Jordan Salcito | Voices With Cynthia Chaplin

Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vinitally International Academy, announcing the twenty fourth of our Italian wine Ambassador courses to be held in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, from the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Are you up for the challenge of this demanding course? Do you want to be the next Italian wine Ambassador? Learn more and apply now at viniti international dot com. Welcome to the Italian wine podcast. I'm Cynthia Chaplin, and this is voices. Every Wednesday, I be sharing conversations with international wine industry professionals discussing issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion through their personal experiences working in the field of wine. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and rate our show wherever you get your pods. Hello, and welcome to voices. This is Cynthia Chaplin, and today I'm so happy to welcome Jordan Salcito. She's the founder of Drink Ramona, which she started in two thousand and sixteen. And Jordan began her career in New York where she still lives. As a restaurant hostess before becoming a prep cook, and a sommelier, and a manager, and eventually the wine and beverage director at David Chang's Momfugu, where her wine programs were repeatedly selected as semi finalists for outstanding wine program, by the James Beard Foundation, world of fine wines named the the most creative in the world, and they propelled her into wine enthusiasts top one hundred restaurants. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Jordan, for coming on today. Cynthia, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to, be here having this conversation together. Great. Well, I am so excited to talk about Ramona. It is described as, quote, the best of Italian spritzed culture in a can. So you've got to tell us about this drink, and how did you come up with this idea? Okay. Yes. So Ramona Ramona's named after my my sister's childhood alter ego when she was five, she had this alter ego scapegoat and anytime she did anything. She wasn't supposed to. She blamed it on Ramona, and it felt like that that needed to be the name for essentially what Ramona, what what my my vision for and goal with Ramona starting in those very early days was degree something that was portable that also sort of adhered to this value system that I came to expect in anything that I personally consumed because, working as a sommelier than on every fall I would go and I would work harvest. It started in Burgundy. For the first ten years, I would work in Burgundy, and then sometimes I would go to other places after that Montalcino or, California or Patagonia and it was just this amazing education in understanding decisions and decisions that don't ever end up on a website or, decisions that are very sort of secretive and not in a bad way. Oftentimes in a very good way, but there was this through line in all of these really great wines of the world, whether they were very expensive and very fancy or whether they were very humble, but that essentially the people making the wines were choosing to not spray chemicals in the vineyards and not add weird stuff in the winery. And there are so many things that get added to vineyards, but say a lot of times, in particular, in the United States, and that, that, of course, there are deception to this. But Italy has this four thousand year culture of organic Viticulture. And the United States really didn't have a wine culture until pretty much after World War two because we weren't even able to grow it has been for grapes here in the United States until after Phylloxera ravaged Europe. And we, you know, some of the course America was responsible for, and then thankfully able to able to, understand and help solved, but that wasn't until really the, effectively, the beginning of the nineteen hundreds or the twentieth century, then after that. And then, of course, prohibition as well. So what was your philosophy with the pivot towards a premium cocktail, you know, pre mixed in a can. It's a big change. Yes. I a big change. I I think I felt as though there were there was a big gaping hole and that there were so many instances where I I personally would have loved something refreshing and low alcohol and and delicious, and that it simply wasn't available. And there were a few key moments that I recall. I remember eating, or there's a a clam, there's a restaurant called the clam bar, and it, is by the beach on Long Island and my husband, and I would always get, you know, a lobster roll in the summer, and then he would have a beer. And I was never somebody who I've never found beer very delicious or refreshing. And so I would just have sparkling water because it's like, well, I don't want a glass of cheap Rosay. I know what goes into that, and I just don't have an interest in, you know, ending up with a headache later on. And, and so I just felt like, why is there why is nobody why is nobody actually making a beverage that that I know today's consumer wants? I'm I'm certainly not the only person who would like something that's low alcohol and refreshing and delicious, but also not full of weird chemicals or pesticides or, yeah, that I can sort of get on board with philosophically that also tastes good because I think that was the another thing where and I remember even in, like, the early days of Rimona and people who who are now big fans of of of what we're doing would say to me something like, we know it it tastes much better than it has to. It doesn't actually have to taste very good, you know, the package is fun, and and that's what people care about. But I I guess I just always felt like why wouldn't we wanna try and check every box? And so No. That's a little tragic. I I I think that it should definitely taste good. Absolutely. So That's that's a point. Packaging is one thing. But, yeah, the taste is what's gonna make me come back. Yes. Exactly. And and I think, you know, taste and farming practices are so linked, and it's It just it was sort of a no brainer to me. Like, why would we not work with ingredients that don't require a whole bunch of manipulation? And why would we not just work with organ so we worked with organic grapes from day one and, organic citrus fruit, and that just seemed like such a no brainer to me. Although, the we we very quickly so we made our first batch in the United States. We shipped over, organic wine. That was a sicilian Zebibo grape based wine. Oh, excellent choice. Because it's bright and it's zingy, and it's, you know, especially if it's harvested before it's overly ripe, because a lot of times, the people can end up in dessert wine, but if it's harvested, before it gets overly ripe, it's so delicious and aromatic and, but not too aromatic and just delightful. And so after a bunch of trial and error, we we end up moving forward with Zebivo as the base. And, remember we shipped it over to the United States, and we got it up to this facility in Upstate New York, and then the day of canning. And at this point, I had used probably all of my savings. In fact, certainly, definitively, all of my savings to get to this day and to get the logistics lined up in the mobile counter and all that. And that was the day that I learned about Belkering. And because I was told I had to use it. I was given a choice and told I could either use you're gonna have to explain to our listeners what it is because not everyone will know. Many people don't know because nobody has to know. There is I I I need to do a little bit more digging on who is actually behind it, but Velcroin is di anyway, it's a it's a chemical. It is a neurotox and chemicals that must be administered with a hazmat suit. And back in nineteen ninety eight, the makers of Velgrin were able to sort of snake it through the FDA saying that, well, it didn't have to be disclosed on labels because it was not an additive or an ingredient. It was a assistance. It had helped assist, to get rid of, of bad bacteria, which is just semantics. It's a neurotoxin that gets added secretly to a lot of things in the United States. So I I heard, well, I won't go into what. I won't name the company, but there was a juice company that had an e coli scare in the, early nineties. That's how I know this story. Absolutely terrifying. I I won't name the company, but as soon as you said Belkerin, I thought, oh, yep, I know that story. Exactly. It was a big terrifying issue at the time. Oh, and and it remains something that nobody has to talk about. And then the more terrifying thing for me or just I guess the thing that just sort of makes me raise eyebrows and just want want so much more transparency on the part of the US government is that it now it's now cheaper. In fact, it's it's actually impossible, but when I learned about Velgren, I immediately started looking for ways to produce Ramona without it. And the only way that we have been able to do that was to move production to Italy. And in Italy, so many things are are are more aligned with our value system. So we're able to work with these delicious organically farmed sicilian, blood oranges for our blood orange flavor and lemons for our lemon flavor. And it just is is easier in so many ways because everything the quality of ingredients that we're able to work with in Italy is just so much higher, and it's less expensive because in in the United States, There's so many fees, and it's just so very challenging to grow things organically. So there are a handful of wineries that are doing an amazing job. Rajat Parr at Ellen Farms is one example of that, and of course there are others. But but it's really hard and it's really rare, and it's so much easier to just get the the the benefit or the financial benefits of round up and spray the ground with round up to kill off any any weeds, a friend of mine, Diana snowden says, who makes wine in both burgundy and, and now in California at her family's winery. She was explaining to me that it's, it took so many years to get her family on board with organic farming because it's three, I believe it's three hundred dollars if you just wanna buy enough around up to spray the whole vineyard area versus twenty eight thousand if you wanna grow it organically and, and be certified. So there's such a cost associated that that it's almost it's it's it's such a high mountain to climb whereas in Italy and in other countries, but certainly Italy, I would say at least at least always at the forefront. Italy bound our banned round up in pre harvest farming back in two thousand sixteen and was, I believe, the first country in the EU to do that, and others have followed France came on board in twenty twenty, four years later, and I think Luxembourg was trying to outlaw round up entirely, but then the lobby, I guess, was strong enough that they decided not to do that. But anyway, it is so difficult. It it really is trying to, you know, go down this rabbit hole of of why why do we punish the the farmers who are trying to go organic and and make the toxic chemical people wealthy. I mean, this I don't wanna go down this road in this podcast, but It is a question that I've had in my mind for years in the US. It seems to be upside down, but that's just my opinion. I'm I'm so happy about everything you said in terms of Italian farming. I mean, Italy's always been relatively, poor country economically compared to other European countries and certainly the US. So they didn't always have the money for the expensive chemicals. And, you know, necessity being the mother of invention, and they they were doing organic far before everybody else. So I'm really excited about the fact that you chose Italy for your baseline and chosen leaf for its fruit. And, of course, your surname is Salcito, so I'm guessing there's Italian heritage in there. So I wanna talk to you a minute about this you found a you found a gaping hole in the market. Your husband was having a beer, and and you didn't have anything to drink. So I'm assuming from your time in Italy when you were younger and your Italian surname that you knew about does spritz culture? Let's talk about that for a bit because again, not all of our listeners will know how important spritz is in Italy. Yes. Okay. And it's such a fun backstory too. Alright. So I remember my first spritz, my first Spritz was an apparel spritz, and I had it during the fall of two thousand eight. And my husband and I had gone to help a friend who had just recently purchased a winery in Montalchino, but he was a bridge player and he was, in some tournaments. So he said, hey, I don't actually know about making wine anyway, but you guys do. Do you mind just going over to help make this wine? You took one for the team and went to Montalcino. Very sad. Well, Ramalcino's so spectacularly beautiful, and it's so wild and rugged compared to burgundy. I mean, I think burgundy is so manicured and it's, you know, it's it broke both places for me are are magic in this very, very powerful way, and they're so, so, so different. So there was this, and also our experiences there. So when we're, harvesting in Burgundy, we were part of a larger program, and everything was very organized whereas when we were in Montalcino, that particular year, it was a little chaotic because there was no leadership. We were sort of the leadership, but we also were not at all and very much didn't know what we were doing. And we're sort of like, okay. I think we should have a sorting table because what we do in Burgundy. And we we knew enough to to make sure that, you know, the that that we weren't going to mess it up to royally, but but in essence, I remember there was this one particular day, and it was very rainy, and we didn't have a winery even. There was, like, a little a little building where the vats of wine, were stored as they were aging, but it, it wasn't like there was a, a winery for sorting the grapes. So we had this tarp, and it kept blowing down in the wind. Anyway, long story short, the, every afternoon after we would, we would sort the grapes and we would clean everything up, we would all go to the piazza, which is such a special piazza, and we would have we would have a cappuccino in the morning, and then we would have a spritz in the afternoon. And it it was just this, like, bright, like, literally very bright because that is the color of spritzes, but also this very bright happy moment in the day, which was really, like, I think it was almost like being a tourist in Burgundy versus, like, actually doing a lot of work in Montalcino up to that point. And so I I started to associate spritzes with this sort of moment of lightness, this moment of happiness, this moment of, yeah, just joy in the middle of the afternoon, and then started doing a deeper dive into the history of spritzes, which which is sort of amazing. So, I mean, you could really argue that spritz's history goes all the way back to ancient Rome and ancient Greece because it was very uncouth to drink straight wine on its own. People would mix it with berries and flowers and water, but then the, the words spritz, can be traced back to the late eighteen hundreds when, the Habsburg Empire occupied Northern Italy. And, the the ops the Austrians didn't like to drink, full strength, Italian wine, so they would add a spray of water or a sprepsin of water, and that was that's believed to be the origin of the word. If I did not know that, that's fascinating. Mhmm. And then it evolved again in nineteen o four, the there was a birth of an art movement called the Italian futurist Art Movement, and that, as I understand it, was effectively a bunch of artists in Italy who were sort of who were very fed up with their entire identity being tied to the past to the Renaissance to the Roman Empire, and they were, they were sort of, they were, they were annoyed understandably. And they were like, no, no, no, no, we do things differently. They wanted to celebrate. Everything new and the future and violence and machinery and war and bright colors. And and out of that art movement grew this illegitimate cocktail movement called the Italian futurist cocktail movement, and, cocktails were renamed Polli Bites, and, and it was very experiential. But that was the birth of Select and Aperol and Campari and these other brightly colored, very different looking, very different tasting beverages, and, apparently, as I've read up on a little bit, you you didn't just order a spritz you ordered whatever pulling BT you had ordered, and then it would be served with garnishes, like, communion wafer stuff with anchovies. So it was really like, how do we take all this old stuff and turn it on its head? Or you would be, one of the other garnishes would be like, a piece of sandpaper that you would touch and pet. So it was very experiential. But anyway, completely out of the box flying in the face of convention. For anybody who has not seen Italian advertising posters from that period, they are incredible So I highly recommend that, yeah, they're amazing. Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to visit our YouTube channel, mama jumbo shrimp. For fascinating videos covering Stevie Kim and her travels across Italy and beyond, meeting winemakers, eating local foods, and taking in the scenery. I wanted I wanted to ask you about sort of the other things going on with Ramona and and this whole spritz idea because your it's not only your fruit and your wine. That's all organic, but you're vegan and gluten free and low in sulfites, and you've got recyclable packaging. And I just wanna talk about the principles behind this for you. What's it's not it's not cheap. To be all of these things. I think people think it's quite easy, and it it really is not. And recyclable packaging can be quite expensive as well. So these these principles are obviously quite important to you. I just wanted to touch on that for a bit. What what took you down that road. Thank you so much. For me, I've always thought of Ramona as coming out of this fine wine value system, and Ramona is in no way a fine wine. It is not reserved for fancy moments or linen tablecloths although it's certainly welcome there. And this is a I think I I got this understanding of this concept of high low through David Chang, my former boss, who would always talk about high low and this sort of, right, high integrity, but for any kind of moment, whether It's a fancy woman or a casual one. And for me, as a person who is inhabiting this world and as a parent of two children who will be part of the future generations, it just I I don't I have no interest in contributing to I I guess, how do I say this differently? I think as a business owner, I feel like I'm I'm in a very fortunate position where I'm able to make decisions that that feel like the responsible thing to do, as a business owner. So, yes, we could use Velcran, which would be cheaper and easier to do. However, why would I want to continue to that's not aligned with a fine wine value system of integrity and really forward thinking. Like, I'm thinking of right now there's a winemaker, Jean Louischaub, and his family has been making wine in the Room Valley since fourteen sixty one. And a few years ago, he completed a project of, along with two or three of his colleagues rebuilding these walls that were built by the Romans, and they're they're these terraced walls and these effectively up a mountainside in san Joseff, right, across from Ermitage. And these are, and then replanted the vines, and these are vines that are not going to really make any, these weren't these were not vines that he planted for himself. These are vines that he planted for. His children and his children's children, and that long term thinking and this sort of respect for resources is a no brainer, I think, especially as every as so many headlines coming out of the news are about how how we, as a human race, need to get on board quickly with sustainable solutions to our lives. Yeah. That is that is such a good point. It it really, really is, and especially you know, being mother having children, I think it makes us more focused on looking to the future and and making the world a healthier and safer place to live in, which you're definitely doing. It it's interesting because I I love the idea that your fine wine background gave you sort of a a very high standard for your canned spritz background. It's it's not something that you would normally think of as being aligned. And I I like the fact that you have really put those things onto the same page. It's unusual. But you you brought up David Chang and and moma Fuku, and I just wanna go a little bit backwards in your history about that because, a huge part of your life, you know, you worked at some of the top restaurants in New York, Coe, Lebanon Madison Park and Crown, and, obviously, with David at Romofuku, and you studied at the Court of Master Sommelier, and I know your your experience in the Court wasn't all that hugely positive even though you passed the blind tasting portion of the exam on your first try, you've described your experience there as sort of full of weird roadblocks, and the service exam as a gut punch And I just wanted to ask you in your opinion, you know, in light of all the scandal that has come out recently about misogyny and, injustice at the court. How did you put your experience into context for yourself? How would you advise a young woman considering becoming a student at the court now? Yes. Okay. And I I do think I mean, overall, I feel like so I was I was able to pass, I while simultaneously not, passing the service exam, and my feedback on that, it was, so there are three tables. And I had passed two of the three, and the third one was the table in which I answered every question correctly. And, I remember my feedback was that, I didn't seem like myself. To this particular table of people who have never seen me work in a restaurant, who also don't work in restaurants themselves. And so it took a little while to to have perspective on that. But at the in the moment Unfortunately, they didn't know you. Would they know what yourself know? Yeah. I think, I mean, I think that's that's indicative of sort of some of the unfortunate behavior that was going on in the court at that time that I think, you know, they're saying publicly they're looking to overturn stuff like that. I think other women in the court who, and I I don't I was never pressured. I was certainly I was I never felt as though I were being pressured to I but some I mean, there's some really serious cases of sexual abuse and assault that are going on in the court, and I was never part of that. I think what what I experienced was sort of this this, I would say, an insular silliness, and and that, I think, was, that was how I think about the feedback that I received because it just didn't really make any sense. But but but I the way I think about my experience there, I think, first of all, there are some amazing people who are part of the court. And I won't name them because I'm sure I'll forget someone, but the the way that I look at my experience with the court is that I learned a lot. I met, some amazing people who either decided to continue with the court or didn't, but it it what the court had the potential to do and perhaps can do if they get their value system straight is, create a an educational framework for the study of wine and a community around that. And I think that was what I was so grateful for. So in the end, while that moment, that particular moment of not passing service and then not really having legitimate feedback as to why felt like a gut punch. And it and in retrospect, I just feel bad for the court that they think that they have to, like, you know, like, what are they trying to protect. Like, it shouldn't be harder to become a master sommelier than it is to become a brain surgeon. And in no other industry, is there this sort of silliness that's associated with with the court right now? Absolutely. And it it it it has really deprecated a lot of what they do well. It's a it is it's difficult. Yes. But but I I think I think in retrospect, it was such a gift because if I had passed, then I would not have had the I would not have taken the initiative to create ramona. So I think it was this this moment of change on so many fronts. It was, passing the service exam and having already passed the blind tasting, but then not passing service at a moment where I was on the floor at Co every night. The Bobby Stuckie is a wonderful human who's sort of the the de facto head of service at the court had come into Co and said, I am, I'm telling everyone I know about what you're doing on this program. Nobody is doing anything that's more important that what you are, and wine at this moment right now, and then feeling like I nailed that exam, and then getting the silly feedback from people who don't even work in restaurants who I certainly, those were not people that I looked up to as inspirations first service in any way. I mean, not to belittle their accomplishments, but it was sort of like, wait a minute. Do I really wanna hang my do I wanna hang my identity on that kind of feedback, or do I wanna look at this as a giant gift? And say, okay. I'm actually I in retrospect, I was sort of spared the, the, the difficulty that a lot of friends ended up going through when they decided to pull their name out of the court and leave it entirely because it was a such a stain on an otherwise wonderful record and resume. So I think the court is going through its own identity crisis, and they hope that they, can figure some things out. But it, had I had I not failed that portion of service? I don't know that I would have had the confidence to to change my to shift my direction and focus on creating Ramona. Well, and you were validated by people who really meant something to you. And I think that's so important in everyone's life and and everyone's path, and, you know, Ramona was born, and it's become a huge success over the past sort of six or seven years with, you know, celebrities seeing, drinking it, and you got the cover of wine enthusiasts with, as one of their forty, under forty, holding your Ramona cans of Great, great cover. But, you know, we know that the workplace is always saying it's equal, you know, equal opportunity. The court says that too, and and we know nobody's really quite all the way here, you know, there yet. But, it's good to see people trying. And so you're you're a mother of two little boys, you've said, and you've achieved so much. It's that old saying if you want something done, ask a busy person. I'm I'm a mother of four girls, and they're all grown up, and they're in their twenties. What advice you give to a young female entrepreneur? You know, not just about wine. What do you want your boys to know about you as they grow up into young men? You know, what would you tell a young woman who was looking to start a business now? Okay. I think so much of it is finding the right partner who's going to be supportive of you. And I was so lucky to find that in my husband, Robert, and it was one of the things that drew me to him early on because, I think so many times, yeah, there there will always be challenges in any relationship, but having a partner who truly who truly is a partner in all ways, is is so important. I would say, oh, goodness. I would say the thing about, I guess, another thing that was such a surprise to me, I remember being very terrified when I learned I was pregnant because because I think so much of the cultural narrative that I had heard or believed and interpreted up to that point was that you you have a baby and then your life is over in the workplace, and you have to it's this very binary choice, and you must pick one and abandon the other. And I think one of the gifts of entrepreneurship is that you don't have to choose one. You can choose both. And I think the thing that I found for me is that that it it it crystalized priorities, it as in parenthood, crystalized priorities, and and both for me are so important. I think they're both such important parts of of my life and of my sources of joy and of my what I what I hope to, and I think my responsibility to raise children who are conscientious and who are respectful and who see who who believe that that everything is possible for for men and for women and for, you know, for, for, for anyone that that it's not, I I I think one of the gifts that I had growing up was being born into a family with two other sisters. So it was my mom and my dad, and then my my two sisters and me. So we were three girls, and my dad had always it it had never occurred to me that that I needed protection or that I needed looking out for, that the workplace was gonna be hard. It was always, you know, you show up and you show up to work, and work ethic was important. Education was always important. And these were foundational things that I think have been so helpful in adulthood because if you if you grow up with the message that if you work hard, you can you can really create the life that you want. I believe that that's true. And I think, I'm I'm just grateful that I didn't have parents who, you know, who who gave me other messaging. Yeah. I think I think that is really a good point. Understanding that you can achieve whatever you want if you're willing to work hard enough for it. That's a really positive thing, yeah, give your parents a hug when you see them next because that was a great that was a great thing they did for you you've also said something that I really love. The quote is that there is no eye in Ramona. I think that's great. You've got a serious commitment to a more sustainable planet, and you're a certified women's business enterprise. And you're supporting initiatives like speed rack, which is an all female competition that raises money for breast cancer research. What's going on in your sort of proactive community building and your outreach? What's your aspirations for for twenty twenty two now that we're sort of coming out of this pandemic, please? Yes. It's such a good question. I think, one thing that has been just become such a, clear focal point. I think education is something that we what I'm realizing is that as we talk more about Velcro and people just don't know that it's in things that they're consuming. So I, I think the more we can do to tell the story of what's in things and why we want people to feel empowered to have that information I think that's that's a major focus for us. And then I think there are there are always I mean, of course, nobody could have predicted the pandemic, and I think one of the great gifts of that was that, collective awareness on Black Lives Matter or, I I think there are so many things to be a said about and so many things to work hard towards that I wanna be open minded and, and, of course, you know, be able to support organizations that, that are doing great work as, as we encounter them. But in this exact moment, I think the best thing that we can do is really double down on sustainability and and what that means and help, tell the story louder so that people are empowered to make choices that, that align with products that they want in a value system that that they already have. Without accidentally subverting it through through other choices. Yeah. Educating people to ask questions and and be aware. I think I think you've hit the nail on the head with that. Well, before I let you go today, I've gotta ask you my famous final question, especially since I know how much you love Italian wine in Italy, what would be your Italian wine drink of choice? You're not allowed to say ramona. If you were gonna sit down of an evening and and open a bottle with Robert, what what Italian wine would you drink? Oh my goodness. There are so many delicious ones. I would say so hard to pick one. I would say I know. I love asking people this question because I hate when I get asked it myself. Yeah. You know what? It would be it would actually be a vermouth. Oh, interesting. Yes. It's one that, the Vietis. So Elena Corrado Vieti. I love the Vietis. Yes. Yes. And Luca Corrado Vietis. So, it's called Elena Vermouth. I had it for the first time in January. So we're in Piamonte for anybody who wants to find that. Yes. We're in Piamonte and the base, a vermouth is always wine, and this happens to be our other, grape grape juice. So it this is organic. Leaf armed grapes from one of their Barona vineyards, and it's so beautiful and then so refreshing and delightful and soulful and joyful all in one. And so I think that that for me was such a wonderful surprised to learn that they have been cultivating this, that it's something that's actually been part of their family for a long time, but they've never actually made it or or released it into the world. And now they're they're starting to do that in a small way. And I just I love them so much, and I feel like can really so much of of a personality of a winemaker can be translated into, into the wine that they make. And so I would I would say if I had to pick one, I would probably be back. And they're they're beautiful labels, those beautiful lithographs of flora and fauna so lovely. So, well, I was not expecting you to say vermouth, but upon reflection, of course, it fits with your spritz ethos. It's it's, grape juice phased and blended. So that was a perfect wrap up for this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on Jordan. It was delight to talk to you. Thank you so much as well, for this conversation. You take care, and have a great day. Thanks for listening to this episode of Italian wine podcast. Brought to you by Vineetli Academy, home of the gold standard of Italian wine education. Do you want to be the next ambassador? Apply online at benetli international dot com. For courses in London, Austria, and Hong Kong, the twenty seventh to the twenty ninth of July. Remember to subscribe and like Italian wine podcast and catch us on SoundCloud, Spotify, and wherever you get your pods. You can also find our entire back catalog of episodes at italian wine podcast dot com. Hi, guys. I'm Joy livingston, and I am the producer of the Italian wine podcast. Thank you for listening. We are the only wine podcast that has been doing a daily show since the pandemic began. 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