Ep. 1766 Paolo D’Urso | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian wine Geeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian GrapeGeek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GradeGeek journal, click support us at italianpodcast dot com, or wherever you get your pods. Grazie and Miele. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Billen, on Italian wine podcast, listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we will learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialties that pair naturally with their wines, and the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us. And I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Today, it's my great pleasure to travel to Umbria, the green heart of Italy, and to the town of Spoleto. To meet my guest this morning, Palmoo Dorso, computer programmer, web designer, Qualified Commelier, wine writer, and author of Trebiano Spolitino, a book dedicated entirely to this unique Umbrian native white grape variety. Salbay Paulo, thank you so much for being my guest today. How are you? I'm fine. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a real pleasure. Thanks. Well, it's a pleasure for me, you know, my My good friend, Allister, has told me a lot about you and of the good times he's had with you inspoletto and how you expertly guided him, introduced him to not just the wines, but also the foods. So I'm looking forward to exploring this with you too. Now firstly, for our listeners, in order to help them orient themselves, our listeners are located all around the world. So can you tell us where what it's like. Maybe something of its history. So we are in central Italy. So, of course, Southern Europe. And, we are it's in the region of umbria. It's also called the the green heart of Italy. Because of its gentle weather, here, all the vegetations of the plants are green all over the year. So right now, all over the country, there is Minus, and we have plus twelve. Oh, wow. Also in summer, Yes. Also in summer, the weather is never over forty degrees, and considered in south of Italy, Sicily, Karabria, it can reach forty five, forty eight. But here, the maximum is forty, but normally it's around the thirty, thirty two. So all the it's a perfect environment for olives and for, of course, grapes. So we have wonderful, olive oil, extra virgin olive oil, and excellent wine. Historically, umbria, is a region famous for their red wines. Spolletta is just fifteen minutes from the town of Montefalco, which is historically famous for producing Sacramento, which is the most stomach wine in the world. And just to give, our listeners an idea, Sacramento wines normally are about sixteen and seventeen percent alcohol. So very full bodied, strong wines. Normally here, when people go to a wine testing of San Antonio, and then if they are stopped by the police, the police doesn't have to, to ask her for, alcohol test because the all the lips are painted, because this, this wine has so much stunning that looks like lipstick. But thanks god. This region is very, easy about, drinkers. Because imagine that in all over the region, there are only three alcohol tester. Also, the so if if the if you drank too much and the police stops you, it's just your destiny. It's not that luck. Just So, also, the region all over has less than one million, habitats. So it's not so highly populated. That's why also they are not car accidents normally. How many people live in Spolletto? Spolletto's a small town, with about thirty thousand inhabitants. Okay. It's quite small. Tell us a little bit about Spolletto. Pulletto is a very cultural town. That we have a famous festival started around the fifties called the festival De Duimoni, festival of two worlds, where Jankarlo Menotti, which was a very famous music composer, decided to move to Spoleto and to start this festival because Paleto has six, theaters, and there's a lot of places which are just ready to to organize a festival. So the people from Paleto just started to to live together with famous artist, and I remember as a kid, always, I could hear music, from the windows of the streets where I was having a walk. Right now, culture all over the world is a bit indecadensis. So also this festival still a six existent, but it's not that famous like in the past. And Paleto has also, a very solid food gastronomic tradition. Oh, and look forward to talking to you about that. We'll talk about food a little bit later. Wonderful. Okay. Okay. Well, that is, an important historically too. It's on the Via, the Roman road. Yes. And it was important, during the time of the Lombard, the Longo Bardi, the Germanic invaders who came into Italy in the sixth century, and established themselves almost over the entire Italian peninsula. So they were quite an important influence, and I know Espoletto had its own duchy. Yes. The the duchy. Spoleto around the the year nine hundred and one thousand one hundred was the capital of a of a very large country, which then became the, state of the church. So we we had, the borders of the, let's say, Duke duccato, Duke of Spoleto arrived to the seaside. From both sides of the peninsula of Italy. And then, of course, the decadence arrived and, spoleto was when there was the state of the church, spoleto was the summer residence of the pope. That's why we have a, a castle at the top of the hill of Spolato, which was used the which was built, for the pope. And when the the next generations of popes decided to move out from Spolato and went to Castel Gandolfo in the southern part of Rome to spend summer there, then this castle became a prison. So all the paintings, all the famous, stuff that were inside were were ruined. And now, it's, again, available for visitors, and so it's no more a prison, of course, and there is a beautiful museum. Also in Paleto, there is a Roman house, per which was found, around, one hundred fifty years, ago, which is perfectly conserved. And it was a a house, of a doctor. So they found a lot of tools, of, doctors. And you can see all the mosaics All the water system is perfectly conservative, even better than Pompeii. And also this, Roman House is accessible to visitors. We have, we have a lot of museums actually in in Spoledo because as I said, it's a very cultural town. And you can buy a spoleto carda, which is a card that allows you to to visit all the museums, whenever you want. So it's very comfortable. Oh my. That sounds really good. I'm I've not been to Spolato myself. So I look forward to visiting and and to meeting you there. Oh, thanks. We are we are waiting with open arms here. Okay. Now, Paolo, tell me about yourself. Wine is clearly a passion. But it's not at present, your full time profession. Tell me about your background and what you do and how you fell in love with wine and with Trebiano Spolletino. Being an Italian, wine is really important in our culture, in our society. And here, we start dealing with wine when we are kids, not because we we buy bottles and we drag them hiding from our parents. But, actually, when we are having meal with our family, we see our parents, our grandfather, our relatives, drinking while while eating. So nobody's getting drunk. This doesn't doesn't matter which cultural level is your family. You will really never see your family or your relatives drunk, like other societies, have, like, for example, my wife is from Poland. They lived in Poland for some time. It's a beautiful place. And there, she told me, like, yeah, I'm used to see my relatives getting drunk when they have meal, with vodka or with other alcoholics here. We drink wine as a celebration. And the kids start to drink wine, of course, a little bit just a a sip when they are, for example, six years old. And the parents give the wine. So the perspective you have a wine is is not something dangerous or forbid them, but it's something to celebrate together. So here in Italy, it's very common when you are a teenager, and you have your motorbike or your bicycle to go when it's weekend to some vineyards. To have wine tastings. Even when you are a teenager, you are not a wine expert. Just because it's accessible, the prices are really affordable. For example, right now, wine tasting costs around the pan, fifteen hour. It depends. Of course, what kind of wine tasting. But it's really accessible to anybody, and you always get some roasted bread with olive oil or some, cold cuts together. So you never drink alone. You always eat something when you drink. So you never get drunk. And it's really something very, very deep in our, in our culture and our, in our society, not only in our, and also in Spain, it's very similar, for example, became curious, because living in Poleto, it means that you are surrounded by one thousand two hundred vineyards. Which are accessible, in a circle of fifteen kilometers. So when it's a weekend, you go with your friends, what what we do today? Oh, it's a beautiful sunny day. Let's go with motorbike nearby, and then let's stop to Sonbinier, then let's discover their wines. Wow. And, the journey is, it's wonderful because you'll always learn something because you just you don't only sit down and drink, but the producer brings you, to the sellers and talk and explain, and you just get more and more informations and it's a never ending journey to learning how wine is produced. And each producer has a vision, and you start to to learn all divisions of these producers. It's really, it's really amazing. I mean, I'm I feel so lucky that I was born, in this area because I could access to so many producers So many wine events. Okay. Molson's Paleto, you you used to have a very famous event called Vininilmundo wines in the world. Where every year, something like three thousand producers were joining and serving wine. So I could taste a lot of wines also from other regions without moving. And then when I when I grew up, I had my, of course, driving license and then started to travel, then we have we are very close to Tuscany. We are very close, to many other regions which produce, wines. So the journey is still going on. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, that's really that's a really good overview of the importance and the naturalness of wine in Italian culture and life that that wine is just something that is that is part of life. It's part of meals. It's part of, enjoyment. It's what we what we all enjoy and what we all love about Italian wine. Yes. Now, Paulo, let's let's turn to your your recently published book. Firstly, I'm really impressed. It's incredibly thorough. It's well written. It's authoritative. You trace the history of this extraordinary characteristics, regulations, and then you give profiles of all the producers. And as you say, each producer has their own emphasis, their own priorities, their own philosophies. The design is very clear. The English translation is good. So a big bravo, really well done. It's an amazing book. Why did you write it? Why did you how did this project come about? Thank you very much. The idea started because Humbria is famous, mostly for red wines. And we have, very good, very good wines. This is a Sanrentino DLCG, one of which is one hundred percent made from Sacramento grapes from Monte Falco, for example, It's very famous. Or, it's a little brother, the, also, de montefalco, doc, which is a blend, which is made by sixty five from sixty five to seventy percent, San Jose, which is the most produced grape, red grape, all over the country of Italy, from from fifteen to twenty percent of Argentina. And the remaining part can be with some other grapes like some other grapes which are produced here in in in umbria. So about red wines, umbria is solid and very strong. But about white wines, we have a a octopus grape called Grequito. Which has a peculiarity of having the ending flavor, a bit, almond. So a bit bitter, I would say. It's strong. Also, you can have a glass of graqueta, which is fourteen or fifteen percent alcohol. But it's really nothing that enjoyable. I mean, we are weak about white grapes. Not forgetting Orvieto. Orvieto, of course, is. Orvieto doc is very famous. The the people in Orvieto are very good in exporting it. But they use, international grapes. So, yes, it's umbrian, but it's not made with the out of octopus grapes, from from the land. So, okay. It's very international. Of course, they use chardonnay. So everybody recognize this, oh, the international, like, oh, very nice flavor of chardonnay. Oh, also, also prokarnico and Grekato. Yes. Exactly. I I love Orbiato, so I'm going to defend it. No. No. Me too. I I love it too. I love it too. Just I don't feel it as a real, I'll talk to noose from from umbria. So of course, there are wonderful, producers of of, Orvito Odyssey, and also the the town of Orvito. We say that, it's the magic town of Umbria. It's really wonderful and amazing. It is. But but we really mean, we we miss it something like, okay. When some wine lover, comes to Uber and say, okay. I want to try something really special and white. What should we offer? But since twenty years, I started to find here and there, some bottles of Trebiano's Palatino. And I was like, what is that? And believe me. I will never forget the first glass I had of Trebiano's Palatino. That was something that made me, oh, my god. It made me shake This is something unbelievable. And more and more I was discovering this this grape and the wines made by this grape. I really thought, okay. Now we talk. Now we have a real potential ambassador of white wines fromumbria. This is going to be a solid, this is going to be really a a solid, protagonist of wines in Uumbria. Of course, the battle is difficult because the red wines are very famous and established. But now after twenty years of this rediscover of Trebios Polytino, there are enough producers. There are enough bottles, that really can make this, as a as a real potential ambassador. So my idea was, okay, let's write a book, to promote this this incredible grape. I don't produce wines. I only drink here. I totally drink them, and and they drink a lot of them. But really, I thought, okay, this grape, this wine, this doc appilation, which is very little, they deserve a book. They deserve to be, spreaded around. So I made the Italian version of the book and also the English version. And now I'm working also on other languages, on other translations. Well, that's amazing. And I, you know, I I know exactly what you're saying. Treviano Esponadino is is still very not known outside of the area. Outside of Italy, certainly. It's a grape I love. I've sampled only a handful of different producers, but it but it has an extraordinary character. And I I agree. It is worthy of a book. And I think it's also interesting that also, as you said, Paolo, it's a rediscovery. This is an ancient grape variety. It's not related to any other Treviano. Yet twenty years ago, it was barely known. And in this last twenty years, and it's part of the story of Italy how ancient varieties and and areas can suddenly be reborn again. And I'm sure your book will help to spread that message because it is such an interesting and character full grade. Coming back to America, Van Italy International Academy, the ultimate Italian wine qualification will be held in New York City from four to six March twenty twenty four. Have you got what it takes to become the next Italian wine ambassador? Find out at benitezalee dot com. Tell us about Shaviano Spollett. Do you know what about? Perhaps let's talk about the wine more than about the grape. Tell us about the different styles of wine made from Trebiano Spolitino and why you liked them so much because there's a vast range of wines from Trebiano Spolitino. Isn't there? Absolutely. Absolutely. What what made me also fairly low with Riviano's Palitino is the is the thing that this, grape has a strong versatility. So it has a very solid acid base, which is just perfect to make sparkling wines. And there are many producers that produce Turbienos Polytino, spumante. So sparkling, with the different methods, like method of classical, of course, but also with the, Charma, or with ancestral method, with the re fermentation bottle, without filtration. And, I have to say that all of them are just, wonderful. And just perfect for any happening. Any any anything you need to celebrate, just open a bottle of Trebiano's Palitino sparkling. No matter which producer. And, oh, my god. All of them, they are just incredible. Incredible. That's a new one on me. I've not had a Trebiano's Palitino. Spumata. Not yet. Yeah. No. Not yet. And also the skins, the grape, is very strong because of, of course, this grape has been forgotten. Because, when the mechanical harvesting started, Treviano was really almost dismissed because Treviano, instantly, was growing, around the plants. So not like in lines, like modern, agriculture, but it was growing around the plants. So you had to harvest manually with the big lather. So when in the sixties, when the mechanical production started, that this was like, too difficult to collect. Okay? Let's focus on some other grapes. But, so the the the skin is very strong. So when you make also a macerated, Trebiano's Polytino, so the Jewish is in contact with the skins after of the pressure, then you have a wonderful for orange wine, which is a wine perfect for meditation, or and it's really you have flavors really, which are are really incredible. You have, like, honey, but the wine wasn't in contact with with with food, with Barrick. Only with steel. So this is a these flavors are in the grape of Trebillonos Palatino, or also, you have really a lot of versatility. You have also the Pacito version, which is also very, very enjoyable. Or the classic, the the traditional Trebios Palatino. Which is different from producer to producer. It's really you you have to discover all of them. And, another very incredible peculiarity of this wine on the grape, and of this wine, of course, is the aging. Trebiano's Palatino is working like a red wine. So it's aging for very long. I had personally a possibility to taste the bottle of Terbiano's Palatino from six four years ago, and the wine was still alive. Oh my goodness. Still alive, which in in white wines, normally after ten, twenty years maximum, the the wines became, vinegars. They're no more drinkable. Yeah. This was orange. The color changed, of course, it it was really amber, dark amber, but still alive. The light was reflecting on the surface of the wine. The wine was still enjoyable. And this is incredible. This show how how we still have to rediscover this grade. And, also, one one thing that I always, when somebody ask me, okay. What should I expect from Trebiano's Polytino? I always say, okay. When you when you smell it, you will feel a lot of tropical fluids, animals, mango, papaya. Yes. I'm I recall that. Yes. So so you will expect that your brain immediately goes with something like Oh my god. This is going to be very fluid in suite. Oh, gaburstra minor. Oh my god. I will drink one glass and then, no, I will change it. But when you drink it, you are totally surprised because the minerality is so intense. It's like we say it's like, a punch in the face because it's something unexpected. And then in the plate, even young bottles of Terbium Espolino are evolutive in your plate. So the this the beginning of the the taste, you feel some fluids, some flowers, and then you feel a lot more at the end. And it's really wow. A journey in in Drombrey. It's a postcard of umbria. You you feel the sun. You feel the fresh air. You you fish you feel all the grass. You feel the mountains. It's really it's really a good ambassador of of of umbria. Well, you've described it absolutely wonderfully. I I agree from the examples I've tasted. You've described as some of those sensations and, you know, the concentration and those tropical fruit notes in a in a powerful white wine, a white wine that's almost like a red wine, in its concentration and and power. What a white wine, you don't want to drink too chilled, I would say. Would you agree? Exactly. Exactly. Especially. The orange version. So the macerated version, you you can drink it, just just keep the bottle of where where you stir where you store bottles. Not not in the fridge. For example, I I would drink it sixteen, eighteen degrees. Yeah. And it's wonderful. It's really each glass, each taste will last very long. And not in a way that bothers you, just in a way that when you see the glass that is empty, oh my god. One of them more. Now, Paulo, Teraviano Espolatino, I'm sure you would agree. It's very much a wine to enjoy with food. As you say, in Italy, wine and food always are enjoyed together. So this is a good opportunity to turn to the gastronomy of Spoleto. When our listeners knock on your door and come to visit you, and when I come to visit you, what would you be saying if you're here in You must eat this. What are the that are really most important to enjoy with Trebiano Spolatino or else perhaps with a glass of that Montefaca, Sacramento. Mhmm. Okay. The best partner for is black truffle. Okay. And in in Norcha. So the southern part, in the eastern part of umbria, we have a very famous black truffles. And, according to the season, we can have the summer truffle. Which is less flavored, but you you just need to put a a bit more of it. Then in November, we have the which is, let's say middle middle quality. And in January, we have the which is the the most expensive and the most flavored black truffle. So Trebios Palitino is really the best partner, for truffles. And how do we eat truffles here? We eat truffles, as a starter. So with a bruschetta. So which is a a slice of bread roasted, and then we grate on it, black truffle. So bruschetta tartufo or a strap at satal tartufo, which is basically a homlet with black truffles, which is also delicious because truffles also goes very, very well with eggs. Yes. Absolutely. It's really a wonderful, a wonderful starter. And also with pasta. And we have a local pasta which are like, let's say, between spaghetti and tagliatelle as a shape. So it's a long pasta, homemade, and it's made only with flour and water. So no eggs. So it's a fresh pasta that cannot last long. You cannot make today and cook it tomorrow because then when you cook it, it will just melt in the water. So you you must make it quick and eat it. And on top after, you grate the black truffles, a little bit of extra virgin olive oil and wow. And, a glass if you have glasses, which are seventy five centiliters. So, otherwise, I would say a bottle of Turbietos, burritinos. Paolo, it's January as we're speaking. Are you enjoying the tortufo Nero Preciado at this time? Absolutely. Actually, today, I will have, stragossi with black truffles because some relatives, which collect truffles, and we do with dogs here in Italy, not with the pigs, like in France. Okay. And the reason is very simple why we use dogs. Because these animals are addicted to truffles and try to stop a little dog from eating a truffle or try to stop a huge giant pig to eat a truffle. So it just makes sense to use dogs. Tiny little dogs. And I am I we have I have we have relatives that collect truffles. So they brought some of this, special variety of black truffles. The difference is it's also in the color. So the summer truff Outside, they are all black. But the summer truffle when you open inside is mostly gray. The unchinato, this middle variety available in November is brown, and the tatoo for preciato, the nortje is black outside and black inside. And you really need just a little bit because it's super flavored. Okay. And delicious. And you'll grate that on the pasta with some all your extra vegene, the new oil, I guess, now. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. There is a big celebration around October and November. It's called the Frantoya Verte. Frantoya are the meals where olive oil are where the olives are squeezed, and they are open to public. So you can go there. Actually, I went there this year with my kids. And the the the big one is big enough. It's three years old. So he enjoyed a lot. All the noise, but all the smell and all the people celebrating when the new olive oil is going, we always celebrate with a glass of red wine. And also, there there are people making Rosqueta. So they're all the grandma, they are roasting the bread, and then we try immediately the olive oil. It's, that's a wonderful happening. Wonderful. Wonderful celebration. Wonderful. What are some of your other favorite dishes that our visit our listeners should try when they're in Spolletto. Well, the area is also famous for the meat. The reason why the meter here is so good, is because we have a regional law that, forbid the animals to be stored in cages. If you produce, if you have animals for meat or for cold cuts or salami or whatever, they must be free. Nortje is very famous for salumi. Isn't it? Yes. Exactly. The word, the Italian word, the Nortjeenerier, which is the generic word for all the cold cuts, comes from the name of Norcha because historically, since the Roman times, the, butchlers of, Norcha, they were they had the best recipes, the best way to produce salami and prosciutto ham. So and still now, the prosciutto de Norcha. It's a very good partner for Sacramento or Roso de Montefalco, for example. And the people that comes in this part of Humbria, I really suggest to try our meat. We have, meat from from cow, which is called Talata. And basically it's cooked and sliced, and it's very tender, very, very, very delicious. It the the variety of cows that we have here is the same, ma'am, it's called Kianina, and it's the same variety where in Tuscany, they make Ferentina. Also, Ferentina is accessible here in Umbria. It just cost the house. Because Tuscant people are more marketing, let's say, than umbrians. The, you know, umbrian Tuscany, we are so similar. We we are like brothers. So we love each other, and we challenge each other. Okay. So so I can imagine that, that quixanina cooked over a wood fire with a glass of, perhaps with the rosso de monte file or or the San Bernardino, but maybe the rosso would be, really splendid. Yes. And chingale wild boar. I imagine that too is a dish you enjoy at this time of year. Yes. Okay. And the wild boar, we always pair it with a Sanarantino, one hundred percent. Secretary, you know, being the most stunning wine in the world is very heavy. It's, something quite difficult to pair. So you can pair it with the some season add cheese, like pecorino cheese or with wild boar. So you just mentioned exactly one of the best partner for Sanrentino. And I suggest people that comes in umbria to discover the wines, to go to the vineyards, because most of the vineyards now produce Trebiano's Paltino and Sanarantino. So also in in Montefalco, not only is Polleto, the producers are making both both both wines. So it's a beautiful journey. You can start with Trebiano's Palatino, and then go with Roso de Montecalco, and then go with Argentina and end with Sagrentino Pasito, or even coming back to Trebiano's Palitino Pasito, which is, always solid enough and strong enough to go even after after red wines. Because we are talking about, okay, it's a white wine but it's very creamy and it's, seventeen, eighteen percent alcohol. So very solid. So this passito di Treviano spolletino, tell me a little bit about that. And maybe is there a typical, brian dessert or pastry that you would have with the passinto. I know the passinto, the multifalco, the Sabrantino passinto has that beautiful black berries and, you know, the strong it's still the strong tannin, and it's never tastes too sweet. Yes. Magnificent dessert wine, but tell us about the traviano spolletino. So, basically, when there is a harvest, part of the grapes are stored on some metal nets horizontally. For couple of months, three months, So all the water is, like, going away, and you have a very concentrated juice when it's when they are squeezed. So the production is very limited. The very few producers make, But then you start to feel I I have this memory of all the passato versions I tried from different producers of this honey, which is not predominant is behind. But gives this sense of sweetness, not too much. So it's very elegant. And, it's very well combined with, traditional, caramel cake from Spolletto called Crreshonda. Crreshonda is a poor it's part of the cuchina power of the poor cuisine, the poor recipes. So it has two hundred grams of amarete, biscuits, which are blended. Only fifty grams of sugar. Four eggs, the half a liter of milk, and half and fifty grams of flour. And, so it's also this cake is not very sweet because the main flavor, it's the, the amarete biscuits, which are a little bit Almunda. And, these cakes, all this, all the, this dough, let's say, cooks slowly, no one. So all the different parts of the eggs, the milk separate, like olive oil and water. And, you have, like, stripes. It's it's called the magic cake because when you cut it, it it's in stripes, and it's a perfect partner for Trebiano's Paludino. Also, this cake is not famous, in the rest of Italy. So it's also one more reason to come to umbria and discover it. Well, Paolo, thank you very much for that detailed description, which makes me want to another reason to come visit you in Spoletta. You've you've really given us a great overview of Espolletto of umbria and above all of the wonderful wines that we will encounter and enjoy. So I hope our listeners will be in inspired by your words to discover the green heart of Italy, umria, and to make their way to spoletto. Palo, I'm looking forward to visiting you. I hope you'll come visit us in Devon as well. But in the meantime, Thank you so much for being my guest today. It's been a real pleasure. And I hope you enjoy that, olive oil, cold cuts meet ready for you. You're welcome to you anytime. Thank you. Okay. Well, I hope to see you soon. But in the meantime, We pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel. With me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast, please remember to like share and subscribe right here or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwinepodcast dot com. Until next time.