Ep. 1810 Michael Caines MBE | Wine, Food & Travel With Marc Millon

The Italian wine podcast is the community driven platform for Italian winegeeks around the world. Support the show by donating at italian wine podcast dot com. Donate five or more Euros, and we'll send you a copy of our latest book, my Italian Great Geek journal. Absolutely free. To get your free copy of my Italian GreatGeek journal, click support us at italian wine podcast dot com, or wherever you get your pods. Welcome to wine food and travel. With me, Mark Billen, on Italian wine podcast. Listen in as we journey to some of Italy's most beautiful places in the company of those who know them best. The families who grow grapes and make fabulous wines. Through their stories, we all learn not just about their wines, but also about their ways of life, the local and regional foods and specialities that pair naturally with their wines. And the most beautiful places to visit. We have a wonderful journey of discovery ahead of us, and I hope you will join me. Welcome to wine food and travel with me, Mark Millen on Italian wine podcast. Today, I'm traveling not far from my home here on the River X. I'm going just downriver about three miles to one of the most beautiful country house hotels that you will find anywhere. Complete with Michelin Star restaurant and award winning vineyard. Lyston Manner, which is the creation of my good friend, chef, Michael Kane's MBE. Michael was a head chef at Gidley Park in Dartmouth and earned and retained two Michelin Stars for eighteen years. He was a co founder of the Abode Hotel Group, and he's now created this beautiful and special place, which opened its doors in two thousand seventeen, earning a Michelin star within just six months of opening. Michael, I know you're very busy, so thanks so much for being my guest today. How are you? I'm looking out the window, and it's pretty nice here on the River X. Yeah. It's absolutely fantastic. Thank you. And, and this time of year, it's always a nice time of year just to try and prepare for the next season and take stock and start the plan if you like for a new year. And so I have a little bit more time just to to do things like this, but also to reflect on the year that's just gone and and the year coming up. Yeah. I know it's been difficult times in hospitality, but you've made lots of changes at Limpson Manor. And of course, the vineyard is one of the most exciting stories, which we'll talk about a little bit earlier, but I just want to ask How are your sheep doing in the vineyard? It's sheep, settled in really well. They've, they've a new addition last year to the vineyard. And, the purpose for them is to keep the grass down, and they've done a really good job but also add some nutrients to the and and fertilizer, natural fertilizer to the vineyard, and it's working very, very well. It's a it's a really good thing to do. You know, that also means to say that the vineyard would be in a healthier state at the beginning of the the growing season, which will start, obviously, pruning very, very soon, and then, into the, by burst, which would be early spring, I suspect. It's a lovely sight to see the sheep who grazing in amongst the vines looking down towards the x. It's a really interesting part of the regenerative approach you're taking here. Yeah. I mean, as you know, and it's lovely to share this, we want to have This sort of regenerative sort of single vineyard status with the regenerative element to it. Single vineyard is an important distinction to make here where all of the wines that we create come from the vineyard itself, and then we're trying to make as many wines from the three varieties as we can, and also spirits this year we're gonna venture into. So we're just trying to make sure that we're doing minimum interventionists. We have to spray, but we're trying to do it in a a most given that our landscape, the most sustainable way to work. And as you say, in a regenerative way, bringing the sheep in, also, has its own unique advantage for preparing the vineyard into to the new growing season. Absolutely. Now, Michael, first of all, I'd like our listeners who are located all over the world to be able to picture where you are. So can you describe Limston Manner, what you've created, and maybe describe that wonderful view, which guests to Limston Manor, and you enjoy every day looking over the vineyard across the accessuary to Lim Bay. Well, Mark, we're here in a beautiful Georgia mansion, which would be sort of created in the seventeen hundreds about a seventeen sixty, and the building itself sits above twenty eight acres and overlooks, the beautiful estuary, which is a a wonderful viewpoint. And in the twenty eight acres, we overlook eleven acres of vineyard within the grounds themselves, which are we're south facing out towards the the Bay of Line overlooking this wonderful estuary. It says wonderful scenic view of both the, estuary, which empties and and feels rhythmically every day, and you see that various weather cycles come and go through the region itself. And, of course, the landscape itself is at almost a little Michael Climate, which gave us the opportunity to to plant the vine. So you have this, you know, sometimes around you, you have rain, but we often are blessed with sun. So it's just a fantastic, position to be in very, very unique because having enough property, such as that available and overlooking such a and having such a dominant viewpoint overlooking of the X is is very, very rare. So it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful location, and it really does, make you feel that you're somewhere very, very special. And the house itself was refurbished and extended, but done within keeping of the original style of the Georgia house, with a lovely veranda that you can sit under and admire and take in those wonderful views. Yeah. It's a breathtaking view. You know, I've visited many, many times. And as I walk through, the woods to reach the house and you come open onto this open view, it's always just wonderful. And as you say, it's partly the rhythm of the title estuary means that that view is different at every time of day and at every season of the year. It is an incredible and special place that you've created, Michael. Now, also for our listeners, Who may not know you? I know that here in the UK, you are one of the most celebrated chefs. You are well known because you're often on television, but our listeners are located all over the world. So Can you share something of your own story? We met more than twenty five years ago when you were at Gidley Park not long after you gained your second Michelin Star. You're from Exeter, you studied in a local catering college, and went on to train with Raymond Blanc in Oxfordshire, and then with some of the most famous and iconic chefs in France, including Bernard Wazzau and Joel Robuchon. So tell us a little bit about your background. How difficult was it for you as a young English chef, a young black English chef working in France and some of the most famous and fearsome professional kitchens in the world. It's a fascinating I think about it, because of my passion for food started in my, you know, my home, helping my mother, and that's where I kind of got into food and never thought of it as a career. But when I decided that I would go in to catering college at Exeter, It was almost like a light bulb moment for me. I was always destined to go in the army, but over the services. And suddenly, I found myself wanting to be a cook. Wanted to be a chef. I hadn't realized back then that that was possible. There were no Raymond Blancs or celebrity chefs on TV. So we didn't necessarily see it as a choice career for a lot of people. It's always often seen as a last choice. But once I got into catering, I found a real love and passion for it, which took me as you say, first to London to work in a a Grover House in Park Lane where I, worked in a mentioning starred restaurant, and that whole adventure to London was inspired by a close friend of ours, actually, that we met together over a glass of wine with, and that was a guy called Nello Getteso in Nello worked at the Imperial Hotel in Exeter, and that's where I worked as a young student. And he said go to London and work in Richmond and start restaurants. And so I went to London went to the Grove of the House Hotel, worked in a Mitchian Star restaurant, and it was whilst working at the Grove of the House that I met the charismatic and passionate Raymond Blonck. So I went on. I worked at the cat season. I was nineteen years old when I went up to the cat season, I spent three years I think what was unique about the Catsees on is that the actual services were done in French. There were a lot of French people in the kitchen at the time. And Raymond Blanc said to me that, you know, I should go to France after three years at the Katsees on. So he managed to get me a job at, Bernadwaza, and, the three Michelin star had just been given only the year before. And, I felt that I was going to a place that was recognized recently for its sort of individual approach from Bernard's sort of minimum cream, no butter in sauces, and I thought that was really very, very interesting. But my time at the Katay's arm was very, very formative, starting as a young commie and finishing as a a sous chef. And I think I fell in love with this idea also of the country house hotel. I thought The cat sees on its spectacular country house with this amazing, you know, vegetable garden and incredible accommodation. That was a very capturing moment for me working there. So I went to another rally in Chateau at the time, as I said, with Bernard, I was spent just over a year there working in a kitchen for the French speaking people. My French was particularly good, but I learned over the next year and and a bit to speak French. And I really enjoyed my time working in that kitchen, making many, many, many friends for life and getting a very close relationship with Bernardo himself before then going to Paris for a year where I worked with the late, which I will be showing, the shaman, and, that was a real tough kitchen But I think it taught me a lot. Each chef taught me a lot about my philosophy of food, whether it be, you know, self taught, Raymond Blonde with his passion for creativity through, this singular vision of there are no boundaries. To working for, but I'd wazza where it was all about the flavor and all about cooking is this light expressive cuisine, and then onto Robichon, this clockwork, almost swiss of its watchmaking, attention to detail with all about technique, which is all about creating my wonderful favor. And I think those influences have stayed with me through my career and guided me to where I am now. Italian wine podcast. If you think you love wine as much as we do, then give us a like and a follow anywhere you get your pods. Okay. So Those were incredible, formative years. But then when you were very, very young, you landed the job as head chef at the renowned Gidley Park, this wonderful country house hotel that stands in isolation within the Dartmouth National Park. You went through a tough and challenging time, and you had to recover from a terrible car accident. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it was ninety four, and I got a call in fact from Raymond Blonck saying I've recommended you for a job place called Gidley Park. Do you know it? And I said, well, I know it very, very well. It's in Devon, and the chef at the time is, the wonderful floor and Hill, and I went over and, cooked a few meals and ended up getting the job and started in an earnest in about June that year. And, I started with a bit of a sort of, you know, firework. It was a very turbulent first few months. But in particular, in in August, bank holiday, I fell asleep at the wheel of the car and had a car accident, which resulted in the loss of my right arm, which is a terrible way to to start your career as a head chef. Now that was the only thing that really sort of happened that day. And I made a very quick decision to keep going and, lucky for me, I was accepted back into the workplace by the then owner of the hotel, which is Paul Henderson and Kay Henderson, then I got back into the kitchen two weeks after my accident part time and then back in full time after four weeks and just literally got on with it. And it was a tough, obviously, period of my life. Six months later, was rewarded with the retention of the Michigan star. And then two years after that, we gained two Michelin stars. So not an easy start. However, it was one of those opportunities where you either give up or you you try or give up, and I just felt I'd gone, too far my career to give up without trying. And I was rewarded with that perseverance with the second style and and and that was was incredible, then I held up for eighteen years in my time at Giddley Park. And, you know, as a young chef, you know, it was a very challenging job anyway just to take over from such a distinguished chef such as Shawn Hill. And then, obviously, you know, to have the accident on top made for a very challenging start for my time at the Giddie Park, but it was also very, I guess, it also helped form the man I am today in terms of the outcome and the perseverance and the, if you like the quality of the man I've becoming or what I do in that sort of sense of determination to to to succeed. It's a really inspiring story, Michael, and your determination in drive is something I've always admired. We've been friends for a very long time. We've worked together for a long time. And I've seen your determination, your insistence on excellence in how it drives you in everything you do. You've always had a total commitment to creating fabulous food based firmly on the superb larder of ingredients that we're lucky to have here in Devon and Cornwall. What for you is so special about where you were born? About Southwest England. Wow. That's a really good question. I think the first part of being born in Devon is this naive a teeth to what was the county of Devon. It's the third largest county in the UK. And so you tend to forget how big it is, how expansive it is. Of course, it's not particularly heavily populated, you know, two major towns, which is Plymouth in the South. Just on the border of Plymouth, you're to to Cornwall, just from the border to Cornwall, and then you've also got Exeter, which is my hometown. And I think, you know, when I grew up in in Exeter, I was on the outside of Exeter to build a small little village called Columpton, and it was a very small lifestyle of, community, if you like. We had a a field and we grew our vegetables, and it was a lovely, very quaint part of the world. But, you know, Devon being the third largest county with less than a million population, you really do focus on those two big cities, and we moved to back to Exeter where I grew up from eight on to my time through schooling and then into Exeter College. And as you grow up, you don't really have a sense of of devin being particularly anything different or special But then I went away. Like everybody does, you'd leave home, you'd go to London, you'd go to Oxford, to go to France, and you'd travel the world. And then when I came back as a head chef at Gidney Park, it came apparent to me that we had this incredible ladder. We were at the both coasts, the south, and the the north coast, and the south coast of Devon, where we have this wonderful sea surrounding us with amazing shellfish just literally being landed at the largest fishing port of of brickson. And, you know, we have these amazing pastures where we we can make incredible cheese, milk, dairy products, obviously, wonderful beef, pork, chicken ducks, All of this is is on our doorstep, and I just realized that there was this incredible ladder that I could define or help define the way I could, and the reason why people would come to debt, Devon, would be because of the fact that we had this unique product. And I began working with, farmers and producers very closely to use this unique larder to define my cuisine as a sense of place and a sense of taste, I guess. And I I guess when I grew up in in Devon, whilst I I lived in a rural community and worked on farms, and for a while I wanted to become a farmer, I hadn't quite grasped the importance of Telwa, the importance of regionality. And it was only when I went to France and to Italy and traveled where you realize that those cuisines are very regional. They're about, you know, using indigenous produce. They're about breeds of cattle, the animals that are indigenous to areas. And then you suddenly realize that there's this huge tapestry of various things that are going on across Devon in small farm holdings and producers. And you just realized that actually we've got a story to tell too about food here in Devon, and I was really captivated by that idea, this concept of agriculturalismo in Italy or this concept of regional foods in Europe, you know, where you have very traditional regional dishes fascinated me because that was something that we don't necessarily see a strong connection within the UK. There is a food culture, of course, but it's very influenced by people who have come to the country, and, and I think we've got a very diverse taste person in the UK. I think I arrived in the UK when there was this start to have this sort of real openness about what we had and chest desire to start to celebrate that, but I was realizing that these things were possible and I picked up on that very quickly from the work that Sean Hill had done at, Gidley Park because you know, you couldn't find produce from from London or Regis in the middle of Devon. You only had one or two if that one delivery a week from London, so you had to look to your farmers and your producers where you could or grow it. Where you could as well. Yeah. You're right, Michael, that this, you know, we we take it for granted now. Everybody wants to eat local foods and, you know, artisan produce, and that's been an evolution here in across the UK and certainly here in Devon. But back in the nineties, you were really one of the pioneers because you were celebrating, championing the goodness that was on our very doorstep but also doing it in a very refined and sophisticated way with your two star Mission and cuisine, which is incredible and, you know, which is one praise and accolades of just about from everywhere. So I think he really elevated what we had here and opened people's eyes to how really excellent our produce is not just in Devon, but I think now we're seeing that across the UK. Yeah. I think that's really good, Mark, because I think we've documented it. We've seen it happen. It's been a progressive story over the last, I guess, twenty or almost thirty years of of seeing the wider county and also UK as a whole, start to embrace the uniqueness of what we have here and also look to really sort of embellish that and adopt that as part of what people are doing. Now it's it's very, you know, we've got the long clue in, you know, in New York, where where they're growing their own produce and making that a very, very strong seasonal identity with the regionality of of that. And I think, you know, you're only gonna look at places like Janeshah Hall in Wales where, you know, he's obsessed with bringing out the best of produce, which is championing from Wales or mixing that with exotic produce from overseas. And I just think it's interesting where it's only in in the UK, we've got this real eclectic mix of culture and and produce, which I think it's quite uniquely British at the moment. And I think that the UK chefs now, we've seen our more michelin stars outside of London compared to michelin stars in London, whereas in the past, it was very London centric. The food scene in when I started thirty years ago was very London centric. It was all about London. It was all about what was going on in London, and then it was a country houses hotel. Now we see, you know, independent restaurants of Michigan staff's faces in pubs and in restaurants all around the UK where the chef has gone out and produced wonderful cooking and was championing the region and and giving its own cuisine a true identity and a center place from the the region that they're cooking within, which I think is which is wonderful. And for here in Devon, you know, we have got a glut of ingredients. So we're almost spoiled in many ways. And so it's not by chance that we're finding more good restaurants here in the county of Devon and indeed the Southwest because our larder attracts wonderful cooks to come and use it. And it's a lovely part for people to come and holiday in. Yes. Absolutely. Now I I guess a sense of place has really been so important to you right from the very very start. So I remember, Michael. I I think it was two thousand fourteen when you gave me a call, and I cycled down the psychopaths from Topsham to through Limston to what was then Cortlands. Yes. A dilapidated George and manner that you were really dreaming about buying and restoring. We've made an offer by then, and we toasted the new venture with a glass of the house champagne, you had at Gidley, your Michael Cane's champagne. And you turned to me, and I remember we looked out over an overgrown field that had once been a piggery. Pigs had been in that recently And it led down to the river, and he said to me, I'm going to plant a vineyard, and I'm going to make a premium Devon sparkling wine. Even when you opened the doors, in two thousand seventeen, and not a single vine was there, Limpson Manor was hotel restaurant vineyard. Your intention was always clear. Why did you wanna plant a vineyard? It's not an easy thing to do. No. It's not. In that moment, Mark, it reminded me of being sat in a very similar location in places all over Europe, Spain, France, in wine regions where you just are overlooking this incredible landscape, and you recognize that anywhere else in Europe there would be a vineyard there And and and and I just said knew that there was this little microclimate and that I knew because I'm local that, you know, that, you know, that there was also this opportunity, unique opportunity, south facing, all the sort of logic suggested it would make sense to do it. And I was, you know, not blindly confident that it would be a great success, but I was I had a hinch. I had a gut feeling that it was the right thing to do. And I felt that the moment was now and it needed to be embraced. And so I felt that with everything you do, you must start as you mean to go on, and and even though we couldn't do the vineyard planting in the first year of opening, which is twenty seventeen, after eighteen months of painstaking the renovation of the house that was. In that moment, when you asked me the question, I just felt, yes, it's gotta be a vineyard. It makes sense. And I think, you know, it was because I've of wine trips abroad and and sitting in similar situations with a glass of you know, wine, tasting it in a sense of place where he just felt that it was an obvious opportunity. One, of course, that took hard work. And, of course, we would take planning and care, but it was obvious that that was an opportunity to investigate and pursue. So in two thousand eighteen, with that determination to plant a vineyard. I remember you planted seventeen thousand five hundred, Pinot noir, Munier, and chardonnay vines. I planted a handful of them myself. Because you invited our number of us down to assist in the process and really to share this excitement of planting a vineyard here in Devon. And you've been patiently waiting for the wines. Twenty twenty was the first harvest the heatwave summer when we were all locked down because of the pandemic. And last year, that first wine that you released from twenty twenty, Limston Manorist State Triassic Pinanoa twenty twenty, Incredibly won the best red English wine award at the prestigious international wine challenge, incredible achievement for such young wines. What it is? And, I think that it kind of rewarded us instantly with our faith in planting those vines, and you would you talk about the wine planting in twenty eighteen. It was a very special occasion. And I remember that happening pretty much planting of the vineyard happened within a day and a half, and then it took about two months to putting all the the trellises and the wiring work. And it just seemed for a very long time just to be a project that never never really felt like. We had seen such a so far way to imagine your first bottle of wine. And of course, we never imagined making a red wine. And because that particular first year of growth was so hot that we actually overwritened our pinot noir. We have three different varieties of pinot noir and one particular variety, which is the f r one eight zero one was overwrite, and we couldn't use it for English Barclay. So the decision was made to to make a red wine. And, the red wine was the pinot noir, the triassic pinot, and we aged it for eighteen months in French oak. And, thirty percent of that with new oak. And the experiment turned out to be a wonderful expression of pure pinot noir, which was unlike any real pinot noir tasted really, which is so ripe and so fruit driven, beautifully rounded off with some lovely tannings, and also that lovely influence of that oak over time. And it was quite a surprise to win, but in a way, we were not that surprised, but to win also a trophy for the best wine internationally from the first year of any growth in a vineyard first release was extra extraordinary and very, very welcome. It's given us a a real surprise that we can make good steel wines. And, that same year, we also did a bio fermented a chardonnay that was going to go into the mix with the classic couvet. And I remember tasting it and you saying to me, you need to bottle this, and we couldn't because we didn't have enough. But very luckily, in the twenty twenty one, we had a good year, and we have made a very small parcel of of Chardon me. Ultimately, we were able to produce our pinot noir in twenty twenty, which is incredible. And then later, obviously, that year as well, we also produced our classic couvet and the we did our tasting and ensemble large and we, we we chose a blend that we felt was was gonna give us the best result. We also decided that the first year in twenty twenty to to we'd have some reserve stock so that if we needed it and that was handy because twenty twenty one was a particularly poor year for us. And actually, I correct myself. We made a a chardonnay in twenty twenty two, beg your pardon. And but twenty twenty one was a particularly bad year where we had with hit with disease, unfortunately. But we still able to make three thousand bottles that year, and we're able to do that because we had that reserve stock. So that was the right decision. So, you know, the first year was a was a good indicator to what was to come. And then, obviously, we released the twenty twenty classic couvet last year in October, having decided that we'd give it three years of aging on lease. And and we thought that was important to get the complexity. And I think one of the things that we spent time working with the winemaker who's over at Line Bay winery was the start of the wine and making sure we had a malolactic fermentation to round off those sub facets and then it was all about the blending, then it then ultimately it came down to the sugar levels as well, which again was part of the story that I'm sure we're gonna go on to talk about. Well, Michael, it's been a fascinating story to see this Limston Manor estate grow and evolve and develop. And now for us to be able to come to Limston Manor to either in the restaurant or in the pool house restaurant. And enjoy wines from the vineyard directly in front of us. You've won every accolade and award as a chef, but how proud are you now to have created Limston Manor Estate and to be able to serve your own wines in your own restaurant? Well, I think it's it's very special because you now have created full circle the very experience that you would go abroad to create. You know, many, many a trip abroad, you know, eating in fantastic restaurants overlooking vineyard and feeding this connection directly with the land through a glass of wine and the food that you eat on the menu with the listed proudly that the the beef or the pork is from the farm down the road or or actually from the estate. And I just think in a way I've kind of gone full circle, I think that lives the manor now really does showcase that philosophy and that trust, if you like, in deciding to have my career in Devon to create something unique in Limster Manner and to entrust into its landscape. This wonderful project called Limster Manner, you know, and trying what we do now get through these turbulent times with a focus on knowing that we've created something very unique and that we've got something special. And whilst it does take time in an investment and faith, add also support from our our investors, It also shows that with that comes something very, very special, something very unique. We are very, very aware that we're telling stories and creating food memories, and we're talking about things that happen over time. But you need to have that vision. You need to have that, and my vision was shaped by those amazing places I worked and those trips abroad. And now being able to do something that here in Devon is very, very special, just down the road from my hometown, and I think it's very rewarding. And I think, you know, when I see now, your people drinking the classic couve, and actually, you know, the rosé which we made in in twenty twenty two, and I know we've got a wrapper coming or or a mar, and a gin coming later in the year and a chardonnay. I do think the story is brilliant because every year there's a new story to tell about the vineyard and the wine matching with the the menus as they change, and there's this focus on creating something very, very unique here which no one else has really been able to achieve yet in england, and that is, you know, a very high standard mission in Star cuisine with a wonderful vineyard, and it's wonderful combination. I think it's a unique combination of opportunities that we've pursued here. But at a very high level of outcome. I mean, it's it's a very high standard of cuisine matched with a really, you know, high standard wine production. These wines are are the wines that people are enjoying to drink, and they're rare because they're single vineyard status. We're making wines only from grapes and juices from the state itself. So our production is is naturally going to be limited. And therefore, we recognize that that's part of our unique selling point is the fact that these These wines are single vineyard status, and they are true expression of the the terroir and the microclimate that we have here at Lynn Samana. Yeah. It is a absolutely unique what's been created and I just get so much pleasure when I'm drinking the Limston Manor State wines in the restaurant or in the pool house restaurant. Mike, can I also think back? We're talking about how how life has evolved, how our lives have evolved, but we go back to that special friend you mentioned at the start of our talk. Nello Getteso, and when you'd finished service at Gidley, you drive out to Topsham where I live, and when Nello had finished in his small restaurant, Nellos Ristorante, and the three of us would share a plate simple plate of pasta and a glass of barbata made by our friend, Mario, and talk about these sort of things, talk about the importance of food and wine, and Nano was a really important influence, I think, to to you and to me, much missed. Oh, yeah. Dear friend for both. He was the voice of ambition that spoke to me at a very young age and convinced me that going to London to follow my dreams was the right thing to do with a young restaurant manager of a Michelin star restaurant at the corner that that came to Devon and brought with him this passion for Food of mine and shared it with us and the community and gave us, you know, long nights talking about great food, you know, simple food with great wines, with conversations about travel and amazing sharing and likeness of mind, which is how we met. And, I think his memories kept alive into a great deal for our stories that we tell, but also through what you do with the bike ride and the community of Toption that miss him dearly, with things like Nello's longest table, because what he was all about was getting people to get around the table to enjoy a glass of wine and some simple foods or some amazing foods, you know, and he was very passionate about that. And and, you know, we're a very food led community here, Devin, and we care about producing great food. And we've got a very engaged group of people, whether it be the Dark Brothers that produce the wonderful dart farms or the cartas that have got the fishing fleets and the and the wonderful Greendale Farm shop or the or the countless amount of farmers markets and food producers here. We're very gifted, and I think, you know, our time in my, you know, together with around that table was very inspiring. And I think, you know, it gave us the space that we needed to enjoy and then share the passion that we have and talk about our futures in a in a very exciting way. Yeah. It's been great to be part of this last twenty years. It've been very exciting here. And the story goes on. We're only just beginning the new chapter now. Michael, it's been really great catching up with you. I'm really delighted to share your story with our listeners on Italian wine podcast. We need to get a date in the diary for lunch sometime soon. Of course. I'll do the cooking. Thank you. Can I bring the wonderful wines from the That sounds great? Thank you, Mark, for having me and to all those listeners. It's been a real pleasure to share a part of the story. They'll be much more to share with you. I'm sure. Next time. Thank you. Thanks, Michael. Chow. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of wine, food, and travel with me, Mark Millen, on Italian wine podcast. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe right here or wherever you get your pods. Likewise, you can visit us at Italianwine podcast dot com. Until next time.